Author Topic: An Armenian Liturgy in English!  (Read 1297 times)

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Offline Severian

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An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« on: August 15, 2011, 01:47:09 AM »
Here's a clip of an Armenian liturgy that is, from what I've seen, at least partly in English:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alPQsuGW28o&feature=related
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 02:40:34 AM »
Very interesting. It looks like the EO liturgy, Latin mass, some Protestant and unknown influences combined into one thing.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 02:40:49 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Severian

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 02:44:00 AM »
Very interesting. It looks like the EO liturgy, Latin mass, some Protestant and unknown influences combined into one thing.


The EO and RC influences I definitely see, but where do you see the Protestant influence?
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 02:44:59 AM »
Very interesting. It looks like the EO liturgy, Latin mass, some Protestant and unknown influences combined into one thing.


The EO and RC influences I definitely see, but where do you see the Protestant influence?

The "friendly" (don't know a better way to describe it) singing, the organ, the cloud pattern wall paintings, etc.

Quite different from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJQ4jNW9kHw
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 02:45:20 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline Aram

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2011, 12:28:10 PM »
This isn't that unusual.  That's Fr. Simeon Odabashian in Philadelphia.  In this video, he's reading the Gospel reading for the requiem service.  In our diocese, and indeed the entire Armenian Church under the Holy See of Etchmiadzin, vernacular is sanctioned for use in the scriptural readings, the sermon and other announcements from the pulpit, and the Nicene Creed.  While some parishes may use a little more or a little less English than that, officially, that's all that is allowed.

This particular series of videos is an instructional liturgy, which is becoming a bit more common in many places once every year or every couple of years, where the liturgy is interrupted for occasional instructional commentary.  Sometimes more English is used for those.

Offline Aram

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 12:29:06 PM »
Very interesting. It looks like the EO liturgy, Latin mass, some Protestant and unknown influences combined into one thing.


The EO and RC influences I definitely see, but where do you see the Protestant influence?

The "friendly" (don't know a better way to describe it) singing, the organ, the cloud pattern wall paintings, etc.

Quite different from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJQ4jNW9kHw
You're pretty much comparing apples and oranges here...

And organs in the Armenian Church are not an American or Protestant innovation, either.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 12:29:49 PM by Aram »

Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 12:31:44 PM »
I saw a portion of a Syriac DL on YouTube in English. It was beautifully done. I probably would have joined the Syriac Church had the local mission done services in English. Are other OO churches in the States using more English?

In Christ,
Andre
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 12:39:34 PM »
I saw a portion of a Syriac DL on YouTube in English. It was beautifully done. I probably would have joined the Syriac Church had the local mission done services in English. Are other OO churches in the States using more English?

The Copts tend to be very keen on using the vernacular since that is also the practice back in Egypt.

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 12:40:29 PM »
You're pretty much comparing apples and oranges here...

Love the oranges, not so sure about the apples.

Offline Aram

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2011, 12:53:33 PM »
You're pretty much comparing apples and oranges here...

Love the oranges, not so sure about the apples.
That's your right, of course.  But even beyond the organ vs. no organ debate, comparing a church in Istanbul to one in Philadelphia, in any number of things, is probably not fair or useful.

Offline Severian

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2011, 02:06:35 PM »
You're pretty much comparing apples and oranges here...
Oh yes, of course. What I meant was that elements of the liturgy reminded me of both an RC mass and an EO liturgy.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 02:07:00 PM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline Hiwot

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 10:46:02 PM »
Christ is Risen!
Selam everyone  :)
Thank you Severian, its beautiful! the choir is awesome! also I thought the way they did the dismissal very beautiful. The fact they kiss the Gospel as they leave is really wonderful, It makes one anticipate that these are true martyrs who will defy the world by living the message of the Gospel or who are going into battle that will be unto death. well thank you.
Blessed day :)
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2011, 05:34:06 PM »
An atempt at the Armenian Liturgy in English:

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5958881

This Liturgy was held early in the morning and did not displace the traditional Badarak later in the day.
While not perfect, it represents a pastor's outreach to a segment of the community often lost to the church.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2011, 06:03:38 PM »
Who performed the liturgy later in the morning?  Our Church's canons forbid a priest to perform more than one liturgy in a day.  Was there another priest to do the later liturgy?

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2011, 06:14:17 PM »
There are several retired priests in the congregation. Presumably one of them took the second service.
"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem

Offline Gisasargavak

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2011, 07:30:59 PM »
Not only are two Divine Liturgies uncanonical, I think having the Liturgy in a language other than the approved Classical Armenian version is uncanonical as well.

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2011, 08:45:23 PM »
I am not endorsing the effort. I posted it so that people would be aware that such things are happening. There is a need in the diaspora for the church to reach out to her members who are not fluent in Armenian. Where there is a disconnect between official rules and the actual needs of a community some priests are going to take matters into their own hands.
"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem

Offline Aram

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2011, 08:49:48 PM »
Not only are two Divine Liturgies uncanonical, I think having the Liturgy in a language other than the approved Classical Armenian version is uncanonical as well.
Whoa now.

1.  Two Divine Liturgies in a day are not non-canonical if they are done on different altars.  Watching this video, the Badarak is being celebrated on a table in front of the altar, on which presumably a different consecrated altar cloth is being used.  Priests have portable altar cloths and altar stones for use in such things as church summer camps, visits to old age homes without altars, etc.  I can't say for sure, but I assume that's what he's using here.

The second Badarak would then be served on the main altar itself, by a different priest.  It appears from this video (from California?) that the parish priest is doing things right in this regard.

You're confusing "two Divine Liturgies" with the canonical guidelines that an individual priest may not serve two Divine Liturgies in the same day.  A different priest can serve a second liturgy (and another a third, and so on) if there is demand, if different altars are used.  There is a reason why there are many, many, many altars and chapels within places like the Cathedral of Etchmiadzin, St. James in Jerusalem, and the like.  Theoretically, at St. James, they could serve something like 25 or more Badaraks per day at St. James if they wanted to, with all the little altars and chapels and the entire manpower of the Brotherhood.  

2.  Language issues are not issues of "canonical" and "non-canonical."  It's a matter of instructions put in place by ruling diocesan bishops.  In America, within the parishes under the Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin, what you can and cannot do in a vernacular language (be it Modern Armenian, Russian, Arabic, Turkish, etc.) has been mandated by the Catholicos, which has been passed down and enforced by the diocesan primates.  There are specific regulations in this regard which have been put in writing and distributed to the parishes.  The canons (and I'm not even really sure if canons is the right word in this case) mandate the words, structure, and rubric of the services, not the language in which they are transmitted.

Offline Severian

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Re: An Armenian Liturgy in English!
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2011, 08:42:52 PM »
In my Coptic Parish we have two Priests and they perform an early morning liturgy and then a later one after that. But they perform these two liturgies on different altars.
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.