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Author Topic: Just got back from attending my first (and possibly last) mass...  (Read 17605 times) Average Rating: 1
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Xenia1918
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« Reply #315 on: August 18, 2011, 12:27:41 PM »

To Xenia1918:
You say at the bottom of your post:
"Real Roman Catholicism: http://www.traditio.com   "
But who are the priests at Traditio? Who is Father Morrison, who is known as Father Moderator? Is he a validly ordained Catholic priest, or just a layman?

Yes, he is a validly ordained Roman Catholic priest.

But if you don't like the concept of independent Roman Catholic priests, you can also check out:

http://www.sspx.org

http://www.sspv.org


The traditional RC movement is very extensive and diverse.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 12:34:06 PM by Xenia1918 » Logged

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« Reply #316 on: August 18, 2011, 12:47:11 PM »

What exactly is that map showing, Isa? "250 BC" is throwing me...leave it to the Orthodox to get there BEFORE Christ...  Cheesy

Its showing when those places were permanently settled, excluding nomads. (I'm guessing)
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« Reply #317 on: August 18, 2011, 12:52:55 PM »

What exactly is that map showing, Isa? "250 BC" is throwing me...leave it to the Orthodox to get there BEFORE Christ...  Cheesy

Its showing when those places were permanently settled, excluding nomads. (I'm guessing)

In the event that you are guessing correctly, what then does the map have to do with Orthodoxy or anything else? 
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« Reply #318 on: August 18, 2011, 01:00:32 PM »

I wonder how many Eastern Orthodox Christians on this forum are praying for us Catholics, that our liturgical situation improves.
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« Reply #319 on: August 18, 2011, 01:05:29 PM »

I wonder how many Eastern Orthodox Christians on this forum are praying for us Catholics, that our liturgical situation improves.

You could start a poll.
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« Reply #320 on: August 18, 2011, 01:12:04 PM »

I wonder how many Eastern Orthodox Christians on this forum are praying for us Catholics, that our liturgical situation improves.

I dunno, that could be a dangerous thing to pray for. As you can already see, some people in this thread cannot discuss the liturgical situation within the RCC without becoming prideful. People might end up being like the pharisee, thanking God that they are not like the publican, if they were to attempt to pray for that.

That being said, I do hope the liturgical situation within the RCC improves, and I think that Benedict XVI is at least taking some steps in the right direction (like making allowances for the EF to be celebrated).
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« Reply #321 on: August 18, 2011, 01:36:36 PM »

I can't say that I pray for that specifically (then again, I'm also not EO), but I do pray that the Catholic Church return to its roots, which would necessarily include its liturgical practices. We should all strive to hold tightly to the apostolic faith. From an Orthodox perspective, Catholics have a long way to go to get there, but Cavaradossi is right that Orthodox are mostly concerned with their own congregations and their own struggle to maintain their faith in often openly hostile conditions (as minorities in lands of secularism, Islam, heterodoxy, etc).
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« Reply #322 on: August 18, 2011, 01:39:53 PM »

What exactly is that map showing, Isa? "250 BC" is throwing me...leave it to the Orthodox to get there BEFORE Christ...  Cheesy

Its showing when those places were permanently settled, excluding nomads. (I'm guessing)

In the event that you are guessing correctly, what then does the map have to do with Orthodoxy or anything else? 

stanley said that the Orthodox mission didn't start south of the sahara until recently. Isa was using the map to prove that Orthodox have been south of the sahara for MUCH longer than Western Christianity has, and that Western Christianity wasn't present there until the 15th Century, and didn't even start really evangelizing until the 17th Century.
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« Reply #323 on: August 18, 2011, 02:01:25 PM »

What exactly is that map showing, Isa? "250 BC" is throwing me...leave it to the Orthodox to get there BEFORE Christ...  Cheesy

Its showing when those places were permanently settled, excluding nomads. (I'm guessing)

In the event that you are guessing correctly, what then does the map have to do with Orthodoxy or anything else?  

stanley said that the Orthodox mission didn't start south of the sahara until recently. Isa was using the map to prove that Orthodox have been south of the sahara for MUCH longer than Western Christianity has, and that Western Christianity wasn't present there until the 15th Century, and didn't even start really evangelizing until the 17th Century.

But if the map is showing, as per the guess above, when those places were permanently settled, it tells us nothing at all about Orthodoxy, Islam, Judaism, Catholicism, or whether there are little green men on Mars.  In short, it tells us nothing.

What might be interesting to know, too, is not who got there when or first, but how many Orthodox Christians there are in Africa, how many (non-Orthodox) Catholics there are, and how many Protestants there are, of all varieties--currently.  

(My, oh my--haven't we digressed from the op  Shocked Grin?)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 02:02:51 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #324 on: August 18, 2011, 02:09:45 PM »

To Xenia1918:
You say at the bottom of your post:
"Real Roman Catholicism: http://www.traditio.com   "
But who are the priests at Traditio? Who is Father Morrison, who is known as Father Moderator? Is he a validly ordained Catholic priest, or just a layman?

Yes, he is a validly ordained Roman Catholic priest.

But if you don't like the concept of independent Roman Catholic priests, you can also check out:

http://www.sspx.org

http://www.sspv.org


The traditional RC movement is very extensive and diverse.
Who ordained him?
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« Reply #325 on: August 18, 2011, 02:53:27 PM »

What might be interesting to know, too, is not who got there when or first, but how many Orthodox Christians there are in Africa, how many (non-Orthodox) Catholics there are, and how many Protestants there are, of all varieties--currently.  

(My, oh my--haven't we digressed from the op  Shocked Grin?)

I'm not sure where you would find such stratified information, outside of church registers. I just looked in Lamin Sanneh's "Disciples of All Nations" (which concentrates heavily on Africa; Dr. Sanneh is Ghanaian, I believe), but there isn't even a single a reference to Orthodoxy in the entire book. It mostly deals with the growth of Pentecostal/revivalist movements and Roman Catholicism.

According to Wikipedia (drawing from the US State Dept report and other sources), the total number of Christians in Africa is 482,240,000. Only Northern and Western Africa have non-Christian majorities. Mostly due to the extremely low percentage of Christians in Northern Africa relative to the total population (5.15% of 206,208,000), the percentage of Christians in Africa is still just under 50% (47.6%), but is rising due to the growth of Pentecostalism and other forms of Protestantism. The growth of Orthodoxy is also ongoing outside of its historic Eastern and Northern (Egyptian) presence, but I couldn't find any specific numbers or rates of growth. As I recall, Met. Kalistos Ware's "The Orthodox Church" (second edition) includes a bit on the growth of the EO in southern Africa, but the stories are mostly local and light on figures (X number of priests trained in a particular diocese, etc), which makes it basically impossible to extrapolate.

This would make an interesting sociological research paper, assuming it isn't already out there somewhere. I tried looking at the Pew Research site, but most of that is about the West and relative rates of growth vis-a-vis Christianity and Islam among various immigrant populations.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 02:56:01 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #326 on: August 18, 2011, 03:03:46 PM »

Right. So it boils down to your opinion that it is OK to dance and sway to and fro  joyful music, and to clap your hands in a Charismatic fashion in the OO or in the EO Church, but not in the RC Church?

I sometimes sway to the rhythm of the Byzantine Chant, but only if (a) I'm in the choir loft where no one can see me and/or (b) my sciatica's acting up.  Wink

You are not the only one.

Have you ever been to a Greek Orthodox Church to experience their celebration of the Pascha at midnight?
The people sway the same way that the Africans did in that Paschal YouTube.
They sway back and forth in the pews while holding lit candles. It could be called the Paschal WAVE.

And whenever they sing Christ is Risen, which they do repeatedly throughout that Divine Liturgy,
they make the Sign of the Cross with their lit candles. Double wave. Awesome.

Looking down at the congregation from the choir loft gives one a wonderful perspective of this wave.
And on an empty stomach, I had to be careful not to look down as it made me nauseated.
I felt like I was in an ocean of waves.

However, it was so awesome to see people joyfully worshiping their Risen King and God, Jesus Christ.

Is it any wonder that I look forward to Pascha every year. It is my favorite time of the year.

I wonder how long mankind has been swaying to the beat of the music?
It is probably way before the 1054 schism.
And has nothing to do with the Novus Ordo or abuses in the Liturgy.

However, bringing in the popular hippy-rock music to the Novus Ordo is liturgical abuse as are the Beer Masses and the Clown Masses.
Did Christ have a guitar?
Did He sing the popular romantic teenager songs with different words to the beat?
Is Outrage (as Father Vasily would say).
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 03:21:06 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #327 on: August 18, 2011, 03:07:21 PM »

What exactly is that map showing, Isa? "250 BC" is throwing me...leave it to the Orthodox to get there BEFORE Christ...  Cheesy
Actually, the Orthodox were there before Christ, translating the LXX in Alexandria. but as for the map

I was refering to those parts of Africa south of the orange in the North (the Sahara) on this climatic map (the numbers have to do with dates of iron artifacts associated with the Bantu expansion, the largest ethnic conglomeration in the continent south of the Hamito-Semites).
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« Reply #328 on: August 18, 2011, 03:14:38 PM »

What exactly is that map showing, Isa? "250 BC" is throwing me...leave it to the Orthodox to get there BEFORE Christ...  Cheesy

Its showing when those places were permanently settled, excluding nomads. (I'm guessing)

In the event that you are guessing correctly, what then does the map have to do with Orthodoxy or anything else?  

stanley said that the Orthodox mission didn't start south of the sahara until recently. Isa was using the map to prove that Orthodox have been south of the sahara for MUCH longer than Western Christianity has, and that Western Christianity wasn't present there until the 15th Century, and didn't even start really evangelizing until the 17th Century.

But if the map is showing, as per the guess above, when those places were permanently settled, it tells us nothing at all about Orthodoxy, Islam, Judaism, Catholicism, or whether there are little green men on Mars.  In short, it tells us nothing.

What might be interesting to know, too, is not who got there when or first, but how many Orthodox Christians there are in Africa, how many (non-Orthodox) Catholics there are, and how many Protestants there are, of all varieties--currently.  

(My, oh my--haven't we digressed from the op  Shocked Grin?)
for starters

http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/uploads/images/p9_Map%231%23.jpg
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« Reply #329 on: August 18, 2011, 03:41:25 PM »

What exactly is that map showing, Isa? "250 BC" is throwing me...leave it to the Orthodox to get there BEFORE Christ...  Cheesy
Actually, the Orthodox were there before Christ, translating the LXX in Alexandria. but as for the map


Of course, silly me--my people, the (Orthodox) Jews  Cheesy!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 03:53:33 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #330 on: August 18, 2011, 04:44:39 PM »

stanley said that the Orthodox mission didn't start south of the sahara until recently. Isa was using the map to prove that Orthodox have been south of the sahara for MUCH longer than Western Christianity has, and that Western Christianity wasn't present there until the 15th Century, and didn't even start really evangelizing until the 17th Century.
“Orthodoxy in Sub-Saharan Africa has been a recent development, covering approximately the last one hundred years.”
For a reference to this please see:  Orthodox in Sub-Saharan Africa
http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Orthodoxy_in_Sub-Saharan_Africa&diff=102283&oldid=prev
Maybe Orthodoxwiki is not the best reference, but there it is.
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« Reply #331 on: August 18, 2011, 05:20:54 PM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.

Don't you think I know about the changes that have been made thus far? St James to St Basil, St Basil to St John Chrysostom, St John Chrysostom to today... While things have been added and taken away, it would still be recognizable to the earliest Christians and still keeps everything intact... We've never gutted and neutered our service down to the bare bones.

Actually, have you ever compared the Novus Ordo to the Protestant Lutheran Liturgy of 1904?

I used to have a copy of the Lutheran Hymnal (1904), but my Catholic Confessor at that time, who was biritual, noticed how the Novus Ordo was copied (plagiarized?) from it almost word for word, so he tore that book and tossed it into the trash. He never celebrated another Novus Ordo from that day forward.

Wow that is interesting. Sad, practically blasphemous, but also interesting....
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« Reply #332 on: August 18, 2011, 05:27:15 PM »

stanley said that the Orthodox mission didn't start south of the sahara until recently. Isa was using the map to prove that Orthodox have been south of the sahara for MUCH longer than Western Christianity has, and that Western Christianity wasn't present there until the 15th Century, and didn't even start really evangelizing until the 17th Century.
“Orthodoxy in Sub-Saharan Africa has been a recent development, covering approximately the last one hundred years.”
For a reference to this please see:  Orthodox in Sub-Saharan Africa
http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Orthodoxy_in_Sub-Saharan_Africa&diff=102283&oldid=prev
Maybe Orthodoxwiki is not the best reference, but there it is.

You're point being? Isa already smashed your earlier point. Orthodox have existed south of the Sahara for centuries, even millenia. (since the Church includes Israel and the Hebrews/Jews of the Old Testament)

Its like people who argue that Orthodoxy in America is very recent, when St. Brendan actually reached the American continent almost a millenia prior to the Russians. Sure, a solidified presence has only existed since the 18th Century in America, but Orthodoxy had been here prior to that.

As for Sub-Saharan Africa, I think you forget Ethiopia, which IS south of the Sahara.

What exactly is that map showing, Isa? "250 BC" is throwing me...leave it to the Orthodox to get there BEFORE Christ...  Cheesy

Its showing when those places were permanently settled, excluding nomads. (I'm guessing)

In the event that you are guessing correctly, what then does the map have to do with Orthodoxy or anything else?  

stanley said that the Orthodox mission didn't start south of the sahara until recently. Isa was using the map to prove that Orthodox have been south of the sahara for MUCH longer than Western Christianity has, and that Western Christianity wasn't present there until the 15th Century, and didn't even start really evangelizing until the 17th Century.

But if the map is showing, as per the guess above, when those places were permanently settled, it tells us nothing at all about Orthodoxy, Islam, Judaism, Catholicism, or whether there are little green men on Mars.  In short, it tells us nothing.

What might be interesting to know, too, is not who got there when or first, but how many Orthodox Christians there are in Africa, how many (non-Orthodox) Catholics there are, and how many Protestants there are, of all varieties--currently.  

(My, oh my--haven't we digressed from the op  Shocked Grin?)

Why does it matter how many Orthodox are currently there?
I think there was another Roman Catholic tried to play the numbers game on here, and who had ignored the fact that the Roman Catholic Church pretty much evangelized just like the Muslims did, by the sword.
The Orthodox aren't many in Africa simply because they had a sword put to their throats by the Muslim, who would then kill them if they didn't convert. So it was either die, or convert, and either way, your numbers dwindle. (and this sort of persecution is a bit different than that faced earlier with the Romans)

You might brag about how many Roman Catholics exist in the Americas, and especially Central and South America, but then you immediately ignore WHY there are so many:


Same why, if you try to argue that Roman Catholicism is great because of how huge it is in Spain, yet you disregard what was done to ensure that other forms of Christianity didn't exist:


Numbers don't give a church more legitimacy, especially when those numbers were gained through violence.
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« Reply #333 on: August 18, 2011, 05:29:55 PM »

I've seen footage of the Tridentine Mass and so I went in expecting something dumbed down from a Tridentine/Orthodox style service, what I witnessed was a little more stripped down than I expected, though not as bad as "clown and puppet masses".

Yes, I went in with expectations and was looking for similarities with the East and with higher forms of worship...

Also, Handmaiden, this discussion is entirely relevant or rather, my observations are... I'm sorry, but the only true, real substantive form of worship is the Liturgical form found in Orthodox worship. Everything else has just reached a point where it is basic and unfulfilling...

I wanted to see the Novus Ordo for myself. And I'm sorry, but I did find it lacking. Though I went Because I wanted to understand what Roman Catholics experience on the basis of worship.

I wanted to see if I could encourage my brother to join and be confident that he would be spiritually filled there. (he needs a church that can do that, I'd love for him to be Orthodox, but I doubt that'd happen)

Now I can also help people if they ask what our church is like... Because the comparison with Catholics is always brought up.

Theres a reason why practically overnight church attendance went from 70% to 30%. Its the Mass you went to. You shouldn't be so surprised by it's banal nature. Hundreds of millions of Catholics noticed it as soon as it was implemented. Lord Have Mercy.
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« Reply #334 on: August 18, 2011, 05:34:57 PM »

Actually, the Orthodox were there before Christ, translating the LXX in Alexandria.

Well yes, taking the long and all-encompassing view, I could see how you could say that. Forgive me, I thought we were talking about organized missions or else I would not have responded with the reference to the Greek Orthodox Church in Alexandria.
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« Reply #335 on: August 18, 2011, 05:58:08 PM »

stanley said that the Orthodox mission didn't start south of the sahara until recently. Isa was using the map to prove that Orthodox have been south of the sahara for MUCH longer than Western Christianity has, and that Western Christianity wasn't present there until the 15th Century, and didn't even start really evangelizing until the 17th Century.
“Orthodoxy in Sub-Saharan Africa has been a recent development, covering approximately the last one hundred years.”
For a reference to this please see:  Orthodox in Sub-Saharan Africa
http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Orthodoxy_in_Sub-Saharan_Africa&diff=102283&oldid=prev
Maybe Orthodoxwiki is not the best reference, but there it is.

You're point being? Isa already smashed your earlier point. Orthodox have existed south of the Sahara for centuries, even millenia. (since the Church includes Israel and the Hebrews/Jews of the Old Testament)

Its like people who argue that Orthodoxy in America is very recent, when St. Brendan actually reached the American continent almost a millenia prior to the Russians. Sure, a solidified presence has only existed since the 18th Century in America, but Orthodoxy had been here prior to that.

As for Sub-Saharan Africa, I think you forget Ethiopia, which IS south of the Sahara.

What exactly is that map showing, Isa? "250 BC" is throwing me...leave it to the Orthodox to get there BEFORE Christ...  Cheesy

Its showing when those places were permanently settled, excluding nomads. (I'm guessing)

In the event that you are guessing correctly, what then does the map have to do with Orthodoxy or anything else? 

stanley said that the Orthodox mission didn't start south of the sahara until recently. Isa was using the map to prove that Orthodox have been south of the sahara for MUCH longer than Western Christianity has, and that Western Christianity wasn't present there until the 15th Century, and didn't even start really evangelizing until the 17th Century.

But if the map is showing, as per the guess above, when those places were permanently settled, it tells us nothing at all about Orthodoxy, Islam, Judaism, Catholicism, or whether there are little green men on Mars.  In short, it tells us nothing.

What might be interesting to know, too, is not who got there when or first, but how many Orthodox Christians there are in Africa, how many (non-Orthodox) Catholics there are, and how many Protestants there are, of all varieties--currently. 

(My, oh my--haven't we digressed from the op  Shocked Grin?)

Why does it matter how many Orthodox are currently there?
I think there was another Roman Catholic tried to play the numbers game on here, and who had ignored the fact that the Roman Catholic Church pretty much evangelized just like the Muslims did, by the sword.
The Orthodox aren't many in Africa simply because they had a sword put to their throats by the Muslim, who would then kill them if they didn't convert. So it was either die, or convert, and either way, your numbers dwindle. (and this sort of persecution is a bit different than that faced earlier with the Romans)

You might brag about how many Roman Catholics exist in the Americas, and especially Central and South America, but then you immediately ignore WHY there are so many:


Same why, if you try to argue that Roman Catholicism is great because of how huge it is in Spain, yet you disregard what was done to ensure that other forms of Christianity didn't exist:


Numbers don't give a church more legitimacy, especially when those numbers were gained through violence.
I am not arguing anything. I gave you the reference for my statement, that's the point.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Orthodoxy_in_Sub-Saharan_Africa&diff=102283&oldid=prev
BTW, what is your reference for saying that Orthodox wiki is wrong on their assertion: "Orthodoxy in Sub-Saharan Africa has been a recent development, covering approximately the last one hundred years."?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 05:59:53 PM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #336 on: August 18, 2011, 06:00:33 PM »

What exactly is that map showing, Isa? "250 BC" is throwing me...leave it to the Orthodox to get there BEFORE Christ...  Cheesy
Actually, the Orthodox were there before Christ, translating the LXX in Alexandria. but as for the map


Of course, silly me--my people, the (Orthodox) Jews  Cheesy!
No, the Orthodox Christians.  The Rabbis foresook their inheritance of the LXX and the Messiah.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
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« Reply #337 on: August 18, 2011, 06:30:22 PM »

stanley said that the Orthodox mission didn't start south of the sahara until recently. Isa was using the map to prove that Orthodox have been south of the sahara for MUCH longer than Western Christianity has, and that Western Christianity wasn't present there until the 15th Century, and didn't even start really evangelizing until the 17th Century.
“Orthodoxy in Sub-Saharan Africa has been a recent development, covering approximately the last one hundred years.”
For a reference to this please see:  Orthodox in Sub-Saharan Africa
http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Orthodoxy_in_Sub-Saharan_Africa&diff=102283&oldid=prev
Maybe Orthodoxwiki is not the best reference, but there it is.
Quote
The Greek community in Ethiopia is first attested by the presence of craftsmen and sailors in the 18th century (1740) in what was then Abyssinia, who played a part in the commerce between the country and Europe.The explorer James Bruce reported that a number of Greek refugees from Smyrna arrived in Gondar during the reign of the Emperor Iyasu II, who included twelve silversmiths, whom the emperor put to work producing a variety of items for both his court and the churches of Gondar.

The community saw its heyday in the early part of the 20th century with the establishment of the Holy Metropolis of Axum by the Patriarchate of Alexandria in 1908 and of the Greek organizations in Addis Ababa (1918) and Dire Dawa (1921).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Ethiopia
this, of course, is in addition to the Ethiopian and Coptic Churches.  In addition, there were a lot of Arab Orthodox (mainly Lebanese) who, like the Greeks, appeared down the coast, not only the Eastern Coast, but also the Western coast, of Africa.

Quote
Year 1750 - A missionary monk Stephanos, was sent by [the EO] Patriarch [i.e. Pope] Matthew to Ethiopia, to evangelize the people there/quote]
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/makarios_zimbabwe_african_chronology.htm
btw, at this time Ethiopia was undergoing a period of disunity, where the Emperor was only a figurehead and the Church's influence hemmed in by Muslims, pagans and warlords.
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« Reply #338 on: August 18, 2011, 06:35:46 PM »


Numbers don't give a church more legitimacy, especially when those numbers were gained through violence.

Really?

I see we're back to the Soviet-Orthodox...and all other peace-filled easterners over the millennial range.

Never a cross-word to anyone.  No forced conversions...nah...nevah!!!
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« Reply #339 on: August 18, 2011, 06:50:21 PM »


Numbers don't give a church more legitimacy, especially when those numbers were gained through violence.

Really?

I see we're back to the Soviet-Orthodox...and all other peace-filled easterners over the millennial range.

Never a cross-word to anyone.  No forced conversions...nah...nevah!!!

I never said we never committed forced conversions. But we've never done it to the level the Roman Catholic Church has. In my opinion, the Roman Catholic Church, especially due to it's interaction with Muslims, probably had the Muslim concept of Jihad injected into it somehow. When you look at the Crusades, the Inquisitions and the Conquistadors, it is pretty easy to see that forced conversion was a major part of the Roman Catholic Church.

There are several quotes by Orthodox Christians who held pretty high rank in society, and I think they sum up the general Orthodox attitude...

"Let the Muslim be my material leader, rather than the Latin my spiritual master." - Patriarch Michael III of Anchialos, 12th Century

"Better my brother's empire should perish, than the unity of the Orthodox faith." - Emperor Michael's sister, after the False Council of Lyons.

"better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!" - Grand Duke Luke Notaris, just before the fall of Constantinople.

Lets also not forget that the Russians also chose to submit to the Mongols rather than be taken over by the Teutons.


Sure, the Orthodox have had forced conversions, but that hasn't played a major part in our history. But the vast majority of the Roman Catholic Church's adherents are descendants of people who were forcibly converted. And such violence played a very major part in the Roman Catholic Church's history from just after the schism to modern times.
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« Reply #340 on: August 18, 2011, 06:52:28 PM »


Numbers don't give a church more legitimacy, especially when those numbers were gained through violence.

Really?

I see we're back to the Soviet-Orthodox...and all other peace-filled easterners over the millennial range.

Never a cross-word to anyone.  No forced conversions...nah...nevah!!!
Of course not. Isn't that what you are always telling us, that the Orthodox rushed to kiss the papal slipper-the Polish royal boot having nothing to do with it?  St. Athanasius' head just fell off.  St. Maxim Sandovich just happened to die in Austrian-Hungarian custody, and his wife put in Talerhof concentration camp for her own good.  St. Alexis Kabaliuk was imprisoned for his own good by AH, to see the error of his way by repudiating the "union."  Not like those forced conversions that Bp.s Vladimir, Nicholas and Tikhon forced on St. Alexis Toth's flock in the US.

Soviet-Orthodox, are those the ones who implimented the extermination of the Ukrainians, Lemko, Rusyns, etc. in the Second Polish Republic, no matter their stand on the "unions"?

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« Reply #341 on: August 18, 2011, 06:52:50 PM »


Numbers don't give a church more legitimacy, especially when those numbers were gained through violence.

Really?

I see we're back to the Soviet-Orthodox...and all other peace-filled easterners over the millennial range.

Never a cross-word to anyone.  No forced conversions...nah...nevah!!!

I never said we never committed forced conversions. But we've never done it to the level the Roman Catholic Church has.

 laugh laugh laugh

Might be why we have more people now...eh?

I think I will leave your historical ruminations for others to comment.
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« Reply #342 on: August 18, 2011, 06:54:38 PM »


Numbers don't give a church more legitimacy, especially when those numbers were gained through violence.

Really?

I see we're back to the Soviet-Orthodox...and all other peace-filled easterners over the millennial range.

Never a cross-word to anyone.  No forced conversions...nah...nevah!!!
Of course not. Isn't that what you are always telling us, that the Orthodox rushed to kiss the papal slipper-the Polish royal boot having nothing to do with it?  St. Athanasius' head just fell off.  St. Maxim Sandovich just happened to die in Austrian-Hungarian custody, and his wife put in Talerhof concentration camp for her own good.  St. Alexis Kabaliuk was imprisoned for his own good by AH, to see the error of his way by repudiating the "union."  Not like those forced conversions that Bp.s Vladimir, Nicholas and Tikhon forced on St. Alexis Toth's flock in the US.

Soviet-Orthodox, are those the ones who implimented the extermination of the Ukrainians, Lemko, Rusyns, etc. in the Second Polish Republic, no matter their stand on the "unions"?



Too bad you cannot see Orthodox realities as clearly, Sir Titty-Tat!!
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« Reply #343 on: August 18, 2011, 06:54:45 PM »

Welcome to OC.net.

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.

Don't you think I know about the changes that have been made thus far? St James to St Basil, St Basil to St John Chrysostom, St John Chrysostom to today... While things have been added and taken away, it would still be recognizable to the earliest Christians and still keeps everything intact... We've never gutted and neutered our service down to the bare bones.

Actually, have you ever compared the Novus Ordo to the Protestant Lutheran Liturgy of 1904?

I used to have a copy of the Lutheran Hymnal (1904), but my Catholic Confessor at that time, who was biritual, noticed how the Novus Ordo was copied (plagiarized?) from it almost word for word, so he tore that book and tossed it into the trash. He never celebrated another Novus Ordo from that day forward.

Wow that is interesting. Sad, practically blasphemous, but also interesting....

Yes, that was sad.
But it was very enlightening to me and to him.
I went East to join the Orthodox Church when I realized that Rome was promoting and using a Lutheran Liturgy disguised as the Novus Ordo.
My Confessor started to affiliate with traditionalist Catholics, and most importantly, he understood their dilemma.

I've seen footage of the Tridentine Mass and so I went in expecting something dumbed down from a Tridentine/Orthodox style service, what I witnessed was a little more stripped down than I expected, though not as bad as "clown and puppet masses".

Yes, I went in with expectations and was looking for similarities with the East and with higher forms of worship...

Also, Handmaiden, this discussion is entirely relevant or rather, my observations are... I'm sorry, but the only true, real substantive form of worship is the Liturgical form found in Orthodox worship. Everything else has just reached a point where it is basic and unfulfilling...

I wanted to see the Novus Ordo for myself. And I'm sorry, but I did find it lacking. Though I went Because I wanted to understand what Roman Catholics experience on the basis of worship.

I wanted to see if I could encourage my brother to join and be confident that he would be spiritually filled there. (he needs a church that can do that, I'd love for him to be Orthodox, but I doubt that'd happen)

Now I can also help people if they ask what our church is like... Because the comparison with Catholics is always brought up.

Theres a reason why practically overnight church attendance went from 70% to 30%. Its the Mass you went to. You shouldn't be so surprised by it's banal nature. Hundreds of millions of Catholics noticed it as soon as it was implemented. Lord Have Mercy.

Exactly. My entire family (except me) joined the Baptists.
I guess they figured it was okay to pray with the Baptists since Catholics were having ecumenical affairs with the Protestants.
Not only that, my parents read about the Lutheran Liturgy known as the Novus Ordo and wanted no part in it.
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« Reply #344 on: August 18, 2011, 06:55:15 PM »

haha.
How was Russia, Bulgaria, Serbia converted? By force, pretty much.
Have you heard of the church sponsored persecution/execution of the paulicians?
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« Reply #345 on: August 18, 2011, 06:58:05 PM »


Numbers don't give a church more legitimacy, especially when those numbers were gained through violence.

Really?

I see we're back to the Soviet-Orthodox...and all other peace-filled easterners over the millennial range.

Never a cross-word to anyone.  No forced conversions...nah...nevah!!!

I never said we never committed forced conversions. But we've never done it to the level the Roman Catholic Church has. In my opinion, the Roman Catholic Church, especially due to it's interaction with Muslims, probably had the Muslim concept of Jihad injected into it somehow. When you look at the Crusades, the Inquisitions and the Conquistadors, it is pretty easy to see that forced conversion was a major part of the Roman Catholic Church.

There are several quotes by Orthodox Christians who held pretty high rank in society, and I think they sum up the general Orthodox attitude...

"Let the Muslim be my material leader, rather than the Latin my spiritual master." - Patriarch Michael III of Anchialos, 12th Century

"Better my brother's empire should perish, than the unity of the Orthodox faith." - Emperor Michael's sister, after the False Council of Lyons.

"better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!" - Grand Duke Luke Notaris, just before the fall of Constantinople.

Lets also not forget that the Russians also chose to submit to the Mongols rather than be taken over by the Teutons.


Sure, the Orthodox have had forced conversions, but that hasn't played a major part in our history. But the vast majority of the Roman Catholic Church's adherents are descendants of people who were forcibly converted. And such violence played a very major part in the Roman Catholic Church's history from just after the schism to modern times.
Odd that EM doesn't know that. Why, just a while ago she was telling us how Lourdes at the time of Bernadette was still in the shadow of the Huguenots, (which the Vatican had exterminated from France nearly two centuries earlier) and the Albigensians (against whom the Vatican sent Crusades of extermination 4 centuries before that).
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« Reply #346 on: August 18, 2011, 07:01:02 PM »

haha.
How was Russia, Bulgaria, Serbia converted? By force, pretty much.
Have you heard of the church sponsored persecution/execution of the paulicians?

This is really another topic entirely. It seems like we have three discussions going on in this one thread.

BACK ON TOPIC:

The Roman Catholic Church FORCED the NOVUS ORDO on MILLIONS of US CITIZENS.
It was accept it or leave.
My family chose to leave as did 25 million Americans between 1970 and 1995.
That was quite an exodus.
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« Reply #347 on: August 18, 2011, 07:01:16 PM »

haha.
How was Russia, Bulgaria, Serbia converted? By force, pretty much.
Have you heard of the church sponsored persecution/execution of the paulicians?

Church sponsored? You call Empress Theodora calling for persecution church-sponsored?

Also, weren't forced conversions in "Russia" (and by that, I actually mean among the Kievan Rus in Ukraine) by the Grand Prince Vladimir and not by the church?

Lastly, is there actual evidence for this persecution from Orthodox sources? Or is it just from heretical/heterodox sources?
(for example, there are heterodox who think Patriarch Cyril had Hypatia killed, yet that is simply a dirty, ugly lie, no matter which "scholar" proports it)
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« Reply #348 on: August 18, 2011, 07:03:50 PM »


Numbers don't give a church more legitimacy, especially when those numbers were gained through violence.

Really?

I see we're back to the Soviet-Orthodox...and all other peace-filled easterners over the millennial range.

Never a cross-word to anyone.  No forced conversions...nah...nevah!!!
Of course not. Isn't that what you are always telling us, that the Orthodox rushed to kiss the papal slipper-the Polish royal boot having nothing to do with it?  St. Athanasius' head just fell off.  St. Maxim Sandovich just happened to die in Austrian-Hungarian custody, and his wife put in Talerhof concentration camp for her own good.  St. Alexis Kabaliuk was imprisoned for his own good by AH, to see the error of his way by repudiating the "union."  Not like those forced conversions that Bp.s Vladimir, Nicholas and Tikhon forced on St. Alexis Toth's flock in the US.

Soviet-Orthodox, are those the ones who implimented the extermination of the Ukrainians, Lemko, Rusyns, etc. in the Second Polish Republic, no matter their stand on the "unions"?



Too bad you cannot see Orthodox realities as clearly, Sir Titty-Tat!!
I know that the Kool-Aid promises to open my eyes and expand my consciousness, but no, not taking a sip, as I have no use for mind altering drugs.  I assUme that if I did take a drink of it, that I wouldn't notice that you didn't answer the question.
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« Reply #349 on: August 18, 2011, 07:05:22 PM »

haha.
How was Russia, Bulgaria, Serbia converted? By force, pretty much.
Have you heard of the church sponsored persecution/execution of the paulicians?

Church sponsored? You call Empress Theodora calling for persecution church-sponsored?

Also, weren't forced conversions in "Russia" (and by that, I actually mean among the Kievan Rus in Ukraine) by the Grand Prince Vladimir and not by the church?

Lastly, is there actual evidence for this persecution from Orthodox sources? Or is it just from heretical/heterodox sources?
(for example, there are heterodox who think Patriarch Cyril had Hypatia killed, yet that is simply a dirty, ugly lie, no matter which "scholar" proports it)

Re: church sponsored conversions.

Do you all remember those re-education classes that the U.S. Bishops asked the Bishops across the USA to sponsor?
They indoctrinated us and made us feel good about all the abuses that were taking place.
Cardinal Mahoney also gave his blessing to print (Imprimitur) various Catholic books that endorsed PRE-MARITAL SEX.

How low did they go?

From latest statistics, few Catholics know what the Immaculate Conception means. They think that Mary was conceived miraculously (without the seed of man).

They don't know much about history or theology, and they surely do not know how to sing those Protestant Hymns now in the NOVUS ORDO hymnal.

Sorry, but I cannot endorse the Novus Ordo ... the Mass that almost destroyed my faith.
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« Reply #350 on: August 18, 2011, 07:07:09 PM »

And whom do you think the Catholic Church used to convert. persecute heretics/pagans? The pope's armies? No. The secular arm. It happened in the east in the same way. The Russian Church persecuted/killed some Judaizer heretics then many of those opposed to Niokon's reforms.  Shed the fundamentalist habits. Come on.
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« Reply #351 on: August 18, 2011, 07:09:23 PM »

And whom do you think the Catholic Church used to convert. persecute heretics/pagans? The pope's armies? No. The secular arm. It happened in the east in the same way. The Russian Church persecuted/killed some Judaizer heretics then many of those opposed to Niokon's reforms.  Shed the fundamentalist habits. Come on.

Exactly, the Post-Vatican Catholic Church has destroyed the innocent faith of millions of former Catholics through the implementation of the NOVUS ORDO.

Actually killing the very soul of people by destroying their faith is more egregious than killing the body.
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« Reply #352 on: August 18, 2011, 07:09:34 PM »

haha.
How was Russia, Bulgaria, Serbia converted? By force, pretty much.
Uh, no.  All three had defeated the Orthodox Emperor, seized territory from the Orthodox Empire, and set terms, and THEN they converted.
Have you heard of the church sponsored persecution/execution of the paulicians?
Those armed heretics?  They weren't in the Balkans until the Emperor promised them religious freedom in the Empire if they fought on the frontier.  When they turned on the Empire, it turned on them.  Out East, they played buffer state.
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« Reply #353 on: August 18, 2011, 07:11:08 PM »

Cardinal Mahoney also gave his blessing to print (Imprimitur) various Catholic books that endorsed PRE-MARITAL SEX.
Would you by any chance have the titles and authors of these books with the imprimatur of Cardinal Mahony ?
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« Reply #354 on: August 18, 2011, 07:11:46 PM »

And whom do you think the Catholic Church used to convert. persecute heretics/pagans? The pope's armies? No. The secular arm. It happened in the east in the same way. The Russian Church persecuted/killed some Judaizer heretics then many of those opposed to Niokon's reforms.  Shed the fundamentalist habits. Come on.
Unlike the Church in the East, the Vatican DID have armies, including all those military "monastic" orders like the Knights Templars and the Teutonic Knights.
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« Reply #355 on: August 18, 2011, 07:13:58 PM »

Cardinal Mahoney also gave his blessing to print (Imprimitur) various Catholic books that endorsed PRE-MARITAL SEX.
Would you by any chance have the titles and authors of these books with the imprimatur of Cardinal Mahony ?

Unfortunately, my former Catholic Confessor tore up those books and tossed them into the community fireplace.

I do remember that they were retreat booklets geared to helping our youth and young adults rediscover their faith.

One of my friends read the book and went right to it. He impregnated his Catholic girlfriend and they had to arrange a very quick wedding to avoid problems with her parents. She was almost 18. Statutory rape anyone?

The Novus Ordo used at those retreats was like a love in, rather than like a Mass.
Teens were holding hands and passionately kissing their boyfriends/girlfriends.
This was Los Angeles under Cardinal Mahoney.
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« Reply #356 on: August 18, 2011, 07:20:00 PM »

I wonder how many Eastern Orthodox Christians on this forum are praying for us Catholics, that our liturgical situation improves.

You, dear Papist, are always in my prayers.
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« Reply #357 on: August 18, 2011, 07:21:45 PM »

Cardinal Mahoney also gave his blessing to print (Imprimitur) various Catholic books that endorsed PRE-MARITAL SEX.
Would you by any chance have the titles and authors of these books with the imprimatur of Cardinal Mahony ?

Unfortunately, my former Catholic Confessor tore up those books and tossed them into the community fireplace.

I do remember that they were retreat booklets geared to helping our youth and young adults rediscover their faith.

One of my friends read the book and went right to it. He impregnated his Catholic girlfriend and they had to arrange a very quick wedding to avoid problems with her parents. She was almost 18. Statutory rape anyone?

The Novus Ordo used at those retreats was like a love in, rather than like a Mass.
Teens were holding hands and passionately kissing their boyfriends/girlfriends.
This was Los Angeles under Cardinal Mahoney.
So you don't have the titles of these books with the imprimatur of Cardinal Mahony?
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« Reply #358 on: August 18, 2011, 07:22:16 PM »

I wonder how many Eastern Orthodox Christians on this forum are praying for us Catholics, that our liturgical situation improves.

You, dear Papist, are always in my prayers.

Yes, I am praying for the conversion of the Vatican and the U.S. Bishops.
I am also praying for a quick demise of the ICEL.
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« Reply #359 on: August 18, 2011, 07:26:14 PM »

Cardinal Mahoney also gave his blessing to print (Imprimitur) various Catholic books that endorsed PRE-MARITAL SEX.
Would you by any chance have the titles and authors of these books with the imprimatur of Cardinal Mahony ?

Unfortunately, my former Catholic Confessor tore up those books and tossed them into the community fireplace.

I do remember that they were retreat booklets geared to helping our youth and young adults rediscover their faith.

One of my friends read the book and went right to it. He impregnated his Catholic girlfriend and they had to arrange a very quick wedding to avoid problems with her parents. She was almost 18. Statutory rape anyone?

The Novus Ordo used at those retreats was like a love in, rather than like a Mass.
Teens were holding hands and passionately kissing their boyfriends/girlfriends.
This was Los Angeles under Cardinal Mahoney.
So you don't have the titles of these books with the imprimatur of Cardinal Mahony?

No, but if you want to go online and ask the chancery office for the titles of all the books he has approved,
be my guest. I would instantly recognize the titles as they were retreat books used by the retreatants.

I do not have the time nor the interest anymore.
My only copies were burned by my confessor.
There were various retreats being tried on our youth.

This one retreat which Cardinal Mahoney approved had us walk around the retreat grounds blindfolded with a total stranger (one of the retreatants) guiding us so that we would not trip or fall. And it was a mixed retreat of young adults (under 30) and teens between 16 and 21. There were inadequate chaperones too because there were young adults present. You can imagine the trouble that some of these kids got into.
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