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Author Topic: Just got back from attending my first (and possibly last) mass...  (Read 16142 times) Average Rating: 1
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TheodoraElizabeth3
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« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2011, 01:47:02 PM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.

Shultz, that sort of RC Mass has been common for close to 25 years. I grew up Catholic experiencing that sort of Mass. Guitar Masses were the rage when I was in college (late 80s/early 90s - I'm 42, to give you an idea of time frame). Many, many RCs from my generation left the RCC and haven't gone back. Our Catholic religious education meant essentially that we received no religious ed. I went to Catholic high school from 8th grade through high school graduation. One year in high school, our daily religious ed class was "peace and justice." The RCC was obviously more concerned about apartheid in South Africa than teaching us anything about the faith.

I was an Episcopalian before I knew the word "transubstantiation." It's a rather important word in the Catholic faith, yet it was never taught to us. I found it in the 39 Articles, classic statements of Anglican faith from the Reformation, where it was referred to as "popish superstition."

I've been to various Catholic services (weddings, etc.) since I left the RCC and they were all very Protestant. Weddings were not exactly joyous experiences, at least not even compared with Episcopalian ones. Gunny sack vestments at every single one. The music was very Protestant.

Listen to the Q&A shows Catholic Answers has online. Plenty of people call in about liturgical abuses and the lack of reverence at Mass in many parishes.

I'm old enough (born in 1969) that I was actually baptized under the Tridentine Rite (aka in Latin). Women with lace doilies on their heads and everything.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 01:48:45 PM by TheodoraElizabeth3 » Logged
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« Reply #91 on: August 15, 2011, 02:00:55 PM »

I grew up in an RC parish in the 80s (I'm 36).  I went to Catholic school from 1st through 6th grade and continued with CCD until I graduated high school.  I was an altar server (best one my parish ever had!) until I was in 9th grade.  I saw all the liturgical abuses that were common during that era.  I also saw a properly executed NO Mass, in Latin and in English.

The masses the OP is talking about are still the worst examples of the NO.  It doesn't matter how prevalent they are.  The priests who perform these liturgical abuses are in the wrong, period.  They are misusing the freedom the Vatican gave them in the 1969 missal.  The simple fact remains is that one cannot judge the NO until one sees the fruits of a properly celebrated Ordinary form Mass and how such a liturgical experience fostered (and continues to foster) the faith of those who take their "churching" seriously...and even those who don't.

The problem is not the NO, but the people who celebrate it in a poor manner.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 02:02:24 PM by Schultz » Logged

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« Reply #92 on: August 15, 2011, 02:04:14 PM »

Just because one finds their own worship "reverent" doesn't mean anything. I felt the same way about our Protestant worship when I was a Protestant, but I was wrong.

I do hope it leads them to further communion with God, but it is far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship.

I could go to a Protestant charismatic service and they would think it was reverent. Again, I hope it leads them closer to God, but it is far from being reverent, far from being spiritually filling.
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« Reply #93 on: August 15, 2011, 02:09:55 PM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.

Shultz, that sort of RC Mass has been common for close to 25 years. I grew up Catholic experiencing that sort of Mass. Guitar Masses were the rage when I was in college (late 80s/early 90s - I'm 42, to give you an idea of time frame). Many, many RCs from my generation left the RCC and haven't gone back. Our Catholic religious education meant essentially that we received no religious ed. I went to Catholic high school from 8th grade through high school graduation. One year in high school, our daily religious ed class was "peace and justice." The RCC was obviously more concerned about apartheid in South Africa than teaching us anything about the faith.

I was an Episcopalian before I knew the word "transubstantiation." It's a rather important word in the Catholic faith, yet it was never taught to us. I found it in the 39 Articles, classic statements of Anglican faith from the Reformation, where it was referred to as "popish superstition."

I've been to various Catholic services (weddings, etc.) since I left the RCC and they were all very Protestant. Weddings were not exactly joyous experiences, at least not even compared with Episcopalian ones. Gunny sack vestments at every single one. The music was very Protestant.

Listen to the Q&A shows Catholic Answers has online. Plenty of people call in about liturgical abuses and the lack of reverence at Mass in many parishes.

I'm old enough (born in 1969) that I was actually baptized under the Tridentine Rite (aka in Latin). Women with lace doilies on their heads and everything.

I can put ten years on you with a wonderful Catholic school education where I learned many good things, and a daily mass in Latin with lovely hymns along with either a dialogue low mass that was recited, or a chanted high mass.

Several of the primary things that I learned were that I am responsible for my faith and I am responsible for seeking out the teachings of my Church, and my family is the heart and soul of Catholic teaching and learning not the schools, and it is in the family that one begins to receive a well-formed Catholic conscience... and the strength of the liturgy is not what I get out of it, but what I put into it.

I was given Catholic texts to read.  Spiritual works.  Histories. Catechisms.  I had a Catholic library to explore and priests and nuns to answer questions along with a father and grandparents and extended family members on the Catholic side [my mother was raised in the Lutheran church].

The Novus Ordo is a beautiful liturgy.   It's very simplicity draws you into the mystery of Eucharist as with a singular focus, whether the liturgy is recited or chanted, whether or not parts are chanted in Latin or English, Spanish or Korean.

enough for now....
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« Reply #94 on: August 15, 2011, 02:16:34 PM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.

Shultz, that sort of RC Mass has been common for close to 25 years. I grew up Catholic experiencing that sort of Mass. Guitar Masses were the rage when I was in college (late 80s/early 90s - I'm 42, to give you an idea of time frame). Many, many RCs from my generation left the RCC and haven't gone back. Our Catholic religious education meant essentially that we received no religious ed. I went to Catholic high school from 8th grade through high school graduation. One year in high school, our daily religious ed class was "peace and justice." The RCC was obviously more concerned about apartheid in South Africa than teaching us anything about the faith.

I was an Episcopalian before I knew the word "transubstantiation." It's a rather important word in the Catholic faith, yet it was never taught to us. I found it in the 39 Articles, classic statements of Anglican faith from the Reformation, where it was referred to as "popish superstition."

I've been to various Catholic services (weddings, etc.) since I left the RCC and they were all very Protestant. Weddings were not exactly joyous experiences, at least not even compared with Episcopalian ones. Gunny sack vestments at every single one. The music was very Protestant.

Listen to the Q&A shows Catholic Answers has online. Plenty of people call in about liturgical abuses and the lack of reverence at Mass in many parishes.

I'm old enough (born in 1969) that I was actually baptized under the Tridentine Rite (aka in Latin). Women with lace doilies on their heads and everything.

Age and number of Catholic services attended, Masses or weddings or whatever, do not equate with a deep understanding for any particular rite or type of Mass.  (I know *plenty* of Catholics and Orthodox who, having been raised in their faith have but a very superficial understanding of that faith and it's various observances and celebrations.) Having said that, at least you have a far more experience and understanding about Catholicism than the OP, and therefore some basis for comparison, criticism, and discernment.  He, on the other hand, seems totally content to, out of ignorance, prejudice, and mean-spiritedness, take his first and only experience of a N.O. Mass to find an opportunity to bash Catholics and their worship.  *That* is the point I was making and that Schultz, using other words,  appears to have seconded.

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 02:17:58 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: August 15, 2011, 02:24:44 PM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.

Shultz, that sort of RC Mass has been common for close to 25 years. I grew up Catholic experiencing that sort of Mass. Guitar Masses were the rage when I was in college (late 80s/early 90s - I'm 42, to give you an idea of time frame). Many, many RCs from my generation left the RCC and haven't gone back. Our Catholic religious education meant essentially that we received no religious ed. I went to Catholic high school from 8th grade through high school graduation. One year in high school, our daily religious ed class was "peace and justice." The RCC was obviously more concerned about apartheid in South Africa than teaching us anything about the faith.

I was an Episcopalian before I knew the word "transubstantiation." It's a rather important word in the Catholic faith, yet it was never taught to us. I found it in the 39 Articles, classic statements of Anglican faith from the Reformation, where it was referred to as "popish superstition."

I've been to various Catholic services (weddings, etc.) since I left the RCC and they were all very Protestant. Weddings were not exactly joyous experiences, at least not even compared with Episcopalian ones. Gunny sack vestments at every single one. The music was very Protestant.

Listen to the Q&A shows Catholic Answers has online. Plenty of people call in about liturgical abuses and the lack of reverence at Mass in many parishes.

I'm old enough (born in 1969) that I was actually baptized under the Tridentine Rite (aka in Latin). Women with lace doilies on their heads and everything.

Age and number of Catholic services attended, Masses or weddings or whatever, do not equate with a deep understanding for any particular rite or type of Mass.  (I know *plenty* of Catholics and Orthodox who, having been raised in their faith have but a very superficial understanding of that faith and it's various observances and celebrations.) Having said that, at least you have a far more experience and understanding about Catholicism than the OP, and therefore some basis for comparison, criticism, and discernment.  He, on the other hand, seems totally content to, out of ignorance, prejudice, and mean-spiritedness, take his first and only experience of a N.O. Mass to find an opportunity to bash Catholics and their worship.  *That* is the point I was making and that Schultz, using other words,  appears to have seconded.

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

There are different levels of prayer, and I would argue, this is the same for worship. One might find fulfillment in basic forms of worship like found in Protestant Churches and Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Churches, but they should not be satisfied to stay there and should seek something higher and more fulfilling.

Its like with prayer... Prayer of the mind and of the mouth are the lowest forms of prayer. They serve us temporarily, but we are intended to move above and beyond them and not stay static within them. (God have mercy on me for I am guilty of this)

My Protestant style of worship served me as a Protestant and served to guide me to the Church, but that doesn't mean I should go back to it, or desire it again, nor does it mean such worship should be normative in our lives.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 02:26:00 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #96 on: August 15, 2011, 02:29:58 PM »

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

Where can I purchase your icon?
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« Reply #97 on: August 15, 2011, 02:31:42 PM »

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

Where can I purchase your icon?

There you go throwing around a personal insult...
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #98 on: August 15, 2011, 02:35:59 PM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.

Shultz, that sort of RC Mass has been common for close to 25 years. I grew up Catholic experiencing that sort of Mass. Guitar Masses were the rage when I was in college (late 80s/early 90s - I'm 42, to give you an idea of time frame). Many, many RCs from my generation left the RCC and haven't gone back. Our Catholic religious education meant essentially that we received no religious ed. I went to Catholic high school from 8th grade through high school graduation. One year in high school, our daily religious ed class was "peace and justice." The RCC was obviously more concerned about apartheid in South Africa than teaching us anything about the faith.

I was an Episcopalian before I knew the word "transubstantiation." It's a rather important word in the Catholic faith, yet it was never taught to us. I found it in the 39 Articles, classic statements of Anglican faith from the Reformation, where it was referred to as "popish superstition."

I've been to various Catholic services (weddings, etc.) since I left the RCC and they were all very Protestant. Weddings were not exactly joyous experiences, at least not even compared with Episcopalian ones. Gunny sack vestments at every single one. The music was very Protestant.

Listen to the Q&A shows Catholic Answers has online. Plenty of people call in about liturgical abuses and the lack of reverence at Mass in many parishes.

I'm old enough (born in 1969) that I was actually baptized under the Tridentine Rite (aka in Latin). Women with lace doilies on their heads and everything.

Age and number of Catholic services attended, Masses or weddings or whatever, do not equate with a deep understanding for any particular rite or type of Mass.  (I know *plenty* of Catholics and Orthodox who, having been raised in their faith have but a very superficial understanding of that faith and it's various observances and celebrations.) Having said that, at least you have a far more experience and understanding about Catholicism than the OP, and therefore some basis for comparison, criticism, and discernment.  He, on the other hand, seems totally content to, out of ignorance, prejudice, and mean-spiritedness, take his first and only experience of a N.O. Mass to find an opportunity to bash Catholics and their worship.  *That* is the point I was making and that Schultz, using other words,  appears to have seconded.

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

There are different levels of prayer, and I would argue, this is the same for worship. One might find fulfillment in basic forms of worship like found in Protestant Churches and Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Churches, but they should not be satisfied to stay there and should seek something higher and more fulfilling.

Its like with prayer... Prayer of the mind and of the mouth are the lowest forms of prayer. They serve us temporarily, but we are intended to move above and beyond them and not stay static within them. (God have mercy on me for I am guilty of this)

My Protestant style of worship served me as a Protestant and served to guide me to the Church, but that doesn't mean I should go back to it, or desire it again, nor does it mean such worship should be normative in our lives.

Perhaps if you were paying attention, you'd realize that the highest levels of prayer are gained in the MOST pared back and simplistic posture of the one in prayer.  Pure contemplation has pared back ALL words, ALL attachments to earthly things, ALL images of ALL kinds...etc.

Based on that reality the Novus Ordo liturgy would be very close to reaching the pinnacle of spiritual purity.

M.
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J Michael
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« Reply #99 on: August 15, 2011, 02:40:17 PM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.

Shultz, that sort of RC Mass has been common for close to 25 years. I grew up Catholic experiencing that sort of Mass. Guitar Masses were the rage when I was in college (late 80s/early 90s - I'm 42, to give you an idea of time frame). Many, many RCs from my generation left the RCC and haven't gone back. Our Catholic religious education meant essentially that we received no religious ed. I went to Catholic high school from 8th grade through high school graduation. One year in high school, our daily religious ed class was "peace and justice." The RCC was obviously more concerned about apartheid in South Africa than teaching us anything about the faith.

I was an Episcopalian before I knew the word "transubstantiation." It's a rather important word in the Catholic faith, yet it was never taught to us. I found it in the 39 Articles, classic statements of Anglican faith from the Reformation, where it was referred to as "popish superstition."

I've been to various Catholic services (weddings, etc.) since I left the RCC and they were all very Protestant. Weddings were not exactly joyous experiences, at least not even compared with Episcopalian ones. Gunny sack vestments at every single one. The music was very Protestant.

Listen to the Q&A shows Catholic Answers has online. Plenty of people call in about liturgical abuses and the lack of reverence at Mass in many parishes.

I'm old enough (born in 1969) that I was actually baptized under the Tridentine Rite (aka in Latin). Women with lace doilies on their heads and everything.

Age and number of Catholic services attended, Masses or weddings or whatever, do not equate with a deep understanding for any particular rite or type of Mass.  (I know *plenty* of Catholics and Orthodox who, having been raised in their faith have but a very superficial understanding of that faith and it's various observances and celebrations.) Having said that, at least you have a far more experience and understanding about Catholicism than the OP, and therefore some basis for comparison, criticism, and discernment.  He, on the other hand, seems totally content to, out of ignorance, prejudice, and mean-spiritedness, take his first and only experience of a N.O. Mass to find an opportunity to bash Catholics and their worship.  *That* is the point I was making and that Schultz, using other words,  appears to have seconded.

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

There are different levels of prayer, and I would argue, this is the same for worship. One might find fulfillment in basic forms of worship like found in Protestant Churches and Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Churches, but they should not be satisfied to stay there and should seek something higher and more fulfilling.

Its like with prayer... Prayer of the mind and of the mouth are the lowest forms of prayer. They serve us temporarily, but we are intended to move above and beyond them and not stay static within them. (God have mercy on me for I am guilty of this)

My Protestant style of worship served me as a Protestant and served to guide me to the Church, but that doesn't mean I should go back to it, or desire it again, nor does it mean such worship should be normative in our lives.

But you, sir, have yet to be canonized.

And, you still haven't answered the question: who are *YOU* to make these decisions or judgments for millions and millions of others?  Who are *YOU* to determine what others, not even of your own faith, *should* or should not do, how they should worship, what they should seek, what they should or should not be satisfied with, and what is "higher and more fulfilling"??  All based on one "negative" and totally uninformed experience of a Mass, and a seemingly unlimited amount of hubris.
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« Reply #100 on: August 15, 2011, 02:42:13 PM »

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

Where can I purchase your icon?

There you go throwing around a personal insult...

This wasn't personal insult.  He was questioning your comparing yourself with the saints.  As do I.
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« Reply #101 on: August 15, 2011, 02:42:21 PM »

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

Where can I purchase your icon?

There you go throwing around a personal insult...

Hey, you are the justifying your behavior by comparing yourself to Saints.
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« Reply #102 on: August 15, 2011, 02:45:01 PM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.

Shultz, that sort of RC Mass has been common for close to 25 years. I grew up Catholic experiencing that sort of Mass. Guitar Masses were the rage when I was in college (late 80s/early 90s - I'm 42, to give you an idea of time frame). Many, many RCs from my generation left the RCC and haven't gone back. Our Catholic religious education meant essentially that we received no religious ed. I went to Catholic high school from 8th grade through high school graduation. One year in high school, our daily religious ed class was "peace and justice." The RCC was obviously more concerned about apartheid in South Africa than teaching us anything about the faith.

I was an Episcopalian before I knew the word "transubstantiation." It's a rather important word in the Catholic faith, yet it was never taught to us. I found it in the 39 Articles, classic statements of Anglican faith from the Reformation, where it was referred to as "popish superstition."

I've been to various Catholic services (weddings, etc.) since I left the RCC and they were all very Protestant. Weddings were not exactly joyous experiences, at least not even compared with Episcopalian ones. Gunny sack vestments at every single one. The music was very Protestant.

Listen to the Q&A shows Catholic Answers has online. Plenty of people call in about liturgical abuses and the lack of reverence at Mass in many parishes.

I'm old enough (born in 1969) that I was actually baptized under the Tridentine Rite (aka in Latin). Women with lace doilies on their heads and everything.

Age and number of Catholic services attended, Masses or weddings or whatever, do not equate with a deep understanding for any particular rite or type of Mass.  (I know *plenty* of Catholics and Orthodox who, having been raised in their faith have but a very superficial understanding of that faith and it's various observances and celebrations.) Having said that, at least you have a far more experience and understanding about Catholicism than the OP, and therefore some basis for comparison, criticism, and discernment.  He, on the other hand, seems totally content to, out of ignorance, prejudice, and mean-spiritedness, take his first and only experience of a N.O. Mass to find an opportunity to bash Catholics and their worship.  *That* is the point I was making and that Schultz, using other words,  appears to have seconded.

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

There are different levels of prayer, and I would argue, this is the same for worship. One might find fulfillment in basic forms of worship like found in Protestant Churches and Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Churches, but they should not be satisfied to stay there and should seek something higher and more fulfilling.

Its like with prayer... Prayer of the mind and of the mouth are the lowest forms of prayer. They serve us temporarily, but we are intended to move above and beyond them and not stay static within them. (God have mercy on me for I am guilty of this)

My Protestant style of worship served me as a Protestant and served to guide me to the Church, but that doesn't mean I should go back to it, or desire it again, nor does it mean such worship should be normative in our lives.

But you, sir, have yet to be canonized.

And, you still haven't answered the question: who are *YOU* to make these decisions or judgments for millions and millions of others?  Who are *YOU* to determine what others, not even of your own faith, *should* or should not do, how they should worship, what they should seek, what they should or should not be satisfied with, and what is "higher and more fulfilling"??  All based on one "negative" and totally uninformed experience of a Mass, and a seemingly unlimited amount of hubris.

I go by what the Orthodox Church says, what other traditional Orthodox Christians say, and what our Saints say. Do you really think I'm going to dig out Orthodox references condemning Roman Catholic styles of worship, etc...?

I don't give a _____ what non-traditional, more liberal "Orthodox" have to say. I've heard enough from Orthodox about Roman Catholics that I feel I'm simply re-expressing what they have said.

(and no, I don't care what Roman Catholics say about themselves, only about what Orthodox say about them)
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« Reply #103 on: August 15, 2011, 02:45:19 PM »

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

Where can I purchase your icon?

There you go throwing around a personal insult...

Hey, you are the justifying your behavior by comparing yourself to Saints.


where the heck did I ever compare myself to the Saints?

All I said, is that if he considers me to be arrogant, then so be it, I don't care. I then asked him if he would consider our Saints arrogant because they talk about a form of prayer being "lesser" than the others. Which is somewhat similar to what I was saying about worship.

That doesn't mean I was comparing myself to the Saints. I was comparing worship to prayer, and asking if he would also consider our Saints to be arrogant.
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« Reply #104 on: August 15, 2011, 02:47:46 PM »

Bump


Perhaps if you were paying attention, you'd realize that the highest levels of prayer are gained in the MOST pared back and simplistic posture of the one in prayer.  Pure contemplation has pared back ALL words, ALL attachments to earthly things, ALL images of ALL kinds...etc.

Based on that reality the Novus Ordo liturgy would be very close to reaching the pinnacle of spiritual purity.

M.

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« Reply #105 on: August 15, 2011, 02:49:13 PM »

Bump


Perhaps if you were paying attention, you'd realize that the highest levels of prayer are gained in the MOST pared back and simplistic posture of the one in prayer.  Pure contemplation has pared back ALL words, ALL attachments to earthly things, ALL images of ALL kinds...etc.

Based on that reality the Novus Ordo liturgy would be very close to reaching the pinnacle of spiritual purity.

M.


That might be true, but those monastics that reach that high state of prayer are required to go to Liturgy and receive the Eucharist and participate in communal worship.

Also, remind me again when St. John was caught up and received his vision? It was on the Lords Day during Liturgy.
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« Reply #106 on: August 15, 2011, 02:52:12 PM »

I don't care.

For someone who doesn't care, you are spending a lot of time explaining why you are correct. And digger yourself into a deeper hole.

Walk away from the thread, if you don't care, if you can find your way out again.

A Desert Father said something about how escape snares and the like. Check it out.
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« Reply #107 on: August 15, 2011, 02:52:29 PM »

Bump


Perhaps if you were paying attention, you'd realize that the highest levels of prayer are gained in the MOST pared back and simplistic posture of the one in prayer.  Pure contemplation has pared back ALL words, ALL attachments to earthly things, ALL images of ALL kinds...etc.

Based on that reality the Novus Ordo liturgy would be very close to reaching the pinnacle of spiritual purity.

M.


That might be true, but those monastics that reach that high state of prayer are required to go to Liturgy and receive the Eucharist and participate in communal worship.

Also, remind me again when St. John was caught up and received his vision? It was on the Lords Day during Liturgy.

 Huh
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« Reply #108 on: August 15, 2011, 02:53:30 PM »

I don't care.

For someone who doesn't care, you are spending a lot of time explaining why you are correct. And digger yourself into a deeper hole.

Walk away from the thread, if you don't care, if you can find your way out again.

A Desert Father said something about how escape snares and the like. Check it out.

If you actually look at the context, I said I don't care if he considers me to be arrogant.
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« Reply #109 on: August 15, 2011, 02:55:24 PM »

I recently attended a low mass. I rather liked it.  And no, i didn't ask for any Orthodox priest's "blessing" to do so.

Now we know what scrambled your brain about homosexuals. //:=)
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« Reply #110 on: August 15, 2011, 02:55:47 PM »

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

Where can I purchase your icon?

Same place where this icon may be found.
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« Reply #111 on: August 15, 2011, 02:58:04 PM »

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

Where can I purchase your icon?

Same place where this icon may be found.

ROFL!!! NFW?!?!

How did you find that?

Is that place for real, or are you brilliantly messing with folks by running that website?
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« Reply #112 on: August 15, 2011, 03:01:31 PM »

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

Where can I purchase your icon?

Same place where this icon may be found.

ROFL!!! NFW?!?!

How did you find that?

Is that place for real, or are you brilliantly messing with folks by running that website?

Sadly, its real...

Its made by Robert Lentz, who is a Franciscan Friar.

*vomit*
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/collection/Holy-People
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« Reply #113 on: August 15, 2011, 03:05:11 PM »

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

Where can I purchase your icon?

Same place where this icon may be found.

ROFL!!! NFW?!?!

How did you find that?

Is that place for real, or are you brilliantly messing with folks by running that website?

It was on a thread here on OC.net a week and-a-half ago or so.
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« Reply #114 on: August 15, 2011, 03:05:45 PM »

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

Where can I purchase your icon?

Same place where this icon may be found.

ROFL!!! NFW?!?!

How did you find that?

Is that place for real, or are you brilliantly messing with folks by running that website?

Sadly, its real...

Its made by Robert Lentz, who is a Franciscan Friar.

*vomit*
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/collection/Holy-People

This is a gold mine. MLK as well Milk and MLK.

Priceless. Sometimes S does turn gold.
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« Reply #115 on: August 15, 2011, 03:06:09 PM »

And, just because the OP was wrong about reverence when *he* was a Protestant....means nothing. Nothing in relation to what a Catholic, or for that matter, an Orthodox or a Jew, or whatever, might or might not experience in their own tradition.  The Catholic N.O. Mass may have been "far, far from being fulfilling in terms of worship" for *him*, but how dare he speak for millions and millions of other people??  Especially based on a single experience!  Now, that really *is* arrogance!

Then so be it, I'm arrogant.

We have Saints who call prayer of the mind "basic" and the lowest level of prayer. Does that mean they are arrogant and shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the millions of us who participate in such prayer and haven't made it to higher levels? Certainly not.

Where can I purchase your icon?

There you go throwing around a personal insult...

Hey, you are the justifying your behavior by comparing yourself to Saints.


where the heck did I ever compare myself to the Saints?

All I said, is that if he considers me to be arrogant, then so be it, I don't care. I then asked him if he would consider our Saints arrogant because they talk about a form of prayer being "lesser" than the others. Which is somewhat similar to what I was saying about worship.

That doesn't mean I was comparing myself to the Saints. I was comparing worship to prayer, and asking if he would also consider our Saints to be arrogant.

Just for the record, I do not consider any saint to be arrogant.  And it wasn't I who brought the saints into the discussion.

Obviously I'm not the only one who thought you were comparing yourself to the saints.  

What you were saying about Catholic worship bore no relationship to what saints said about different levels of prayer.  It is incredibly disingenuous to invoke the saints while bashing another's faith and worship.

You keep deflecting, not answering direct questions, and you dig the hole you are in deeper and deeper.

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« Reply #116 on: August 15, 2011, 03:15:40 PM »

In addition, when Protestants and Catholics refer to Jesus Christ as "My buddy and friend" it doesn't sound right.
I can't stand this either. I never said it when I was a Protestant, and I don't say it now as a Catholic either.

If Jesus ain't your friend, who is?
He's a friend in the sense that He helps us and is "on our side" not in the sense of being someone you can crack open a six pack with.

I think a good analogy might be when someone is described as "a friend of the public library." They don't spend their time gushing about it in syrupy language or take dates there, but they do care about its upkeep and progress, which is why they donate, etc.
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« Reply #117 on: August 15, 2011, 03:36:32 PM »

So out of curiosity, how should the Orthodox understand the NO mass in the context of a hopeful reunification (several thousand years in the making Tongue)? The liturgical abuses notwithstanding, how are we to understand a properly performed NO mass from a liturgical standpoint? Is there anything which would be considered truly deficient?
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« Reply #118 on: August 15, 2011, 03:57:28 PM »

So out of curiosity, how should the Orthodox understand the NO mass in the context of a hopeful reunification (several thousand years in the making Tongue)? The liturgical abuses notwithstanding, how are we to understand a properly performed NO mass from a liturgical standpoint? Is there anything which would be considered truly deficient?

I'm not really sure I can answer that for you.  As I said to the OP, if you're really interested there's plenty of material out there for you to study and learn from about it, including the 2 books I posted links for.  I believe that a proper knowledge and understanding of the N.O. Mass would reveal that there is nothing "truly deficient", although I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

What I have to say about reunification is of no consequence and carries no weight.  That understood, part of my personal vision of it is that the liturgical rites and liturgies currently used in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches would be mutually accepted by both.  That is, whichever liturgy/rite is currently used by any particular church will be allowed to be continued to be used, and no one's liturgy/rite will be imposed upon another.  Whether that would be acceptable or would happen, only God knows.

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« Reply #119 on: August 15, 2011, 04:12:38 PM »

So out of curiosity, how should the Orthodox understand the NO mass in the context of a hopeful reunification (several thousand years in the making Tongue)? The liturgical abuses notwithstanding, how are we to understand a properly performed NO mass from a liturgical standpoint? Is there anything which would be considered truly deficient?

I'm not really sure I can answer that for you.  As I said to the OP, if you're really interested there's plenty of material out there for you to study and learn from about it, including the 2 books I posted links for.  I believe that a proper knowledge and understanding of the N.O. Mass would reveal that there is nothing "truly deficient", although I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

What I have to say about reunification is of no consequence and carries no weight.  That understood, part of my personal vision of it is that the liturgical rites and liturgies currently used in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches would be mutually accepted by both.  That is, whichever liturgy/rite is currently used by any particular church will be allowed to be continued to be used, and no one's liturgy/rite will be imposed upon another.  Whether that would be acceptable or would happen, only God knows.



As an example of what I mean by "deficient," I think that Western Rite Orthodox Churches insert an explicit epiklesis into the Tridentine mass because it only has an implicit epiklesis. It is my understanding, however, that an explicit epiklesis, modeled on the one by St. Basil the Great, was added into the NO mass, so that should no longer be an issue.
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« Reply #120 on: August 15, 2011, 04:30:00 PM »

So out of curiosity, how should the Orthodox understand the NO mass in the context of a hopeful reunification (several thousand years in the making Tongue)? The liturgical abuses notwithstanding, how are we to understand a properly performed NO mass from a liturgical standpoint? Is there anything which would be considered truly deficient?

I'm not really sure I can answer that for you.  As I said to the OP, if you're really interested there's plenty of material out there for you to study and learn from about it, including the 2 books I posted links for.  I believe that a proper knowledge and understanding of the N.O. Mass would reveal that there is nothing "truly deficient", although I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

What I have to say about reunification is of no consequence and carries no weight.  That understood, part of my personal vision of it is that the liturgical rites and liturgies currently used in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches would be mutually accepted by both.  That is, whichever liturgy/rite is currently used by any particular church will be allowed to be continued to be used, and no one's liturgy/rite will be imposed upon another.  Whether that would be acceptable or would happen, only God knows.



As an example of what I mean by "deficient," I think that Western Rite Orthodox Churches insert an explicit epiklesis into the Tridentine mass because it only has an implicit epiklesis. It is my understanding, however, that an explicit epiklesis, modeled on the one by St. Basil the Great, was added into the NO mass, so that should no longer be an issue.

I guess you've answered your own question, then  Wink

Unfortunately, I have to plead ignorance of the Tridentine Mass, so I cannot comment on it.
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« Reply #121 on: August 15, 2011, 04:35:15 PM »

So out of curiosity, how should the Orthodox understand the NO mass in the context of a hopeful reunification (several thousand years in the making Tongue)? The liturgical abuses notwithstanding, how are we to understand a properly performed NO mass from a liturgical standpoint? Is there anything which would be considered truly deficient?

I'm not really sure I can answer that for you.  As I said to the OP, if you're really interested there's plenty of material out there for you to study and learn from about it, including the 2 books I posted links for.  I believe that a proper knowledge and understanding of the N.O. Mass would reveal that there is nothing "truly deficient", although I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

What I have to say about reunification is of no consequence and carries no weight.  That understood, part of my personal vision of it is that the liturgical rites and liturgies currently used in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches would be mutually accepted by both.  That is, whichever liturgy/rite is currently used by any particular church will be allowed to be continued to be used, and no one's liturgy/rite will be imposed upon another.  Whether that would be acceptable or would happen, only God knows.



As an example of what I mean by "deficient," I think that Western Rite Orthodox Churches insert an explicit epiklesis into the Tridentine mass because it only has an implicit epiklesis. It is my understanding, however, that an explicit epiklesis, modeled on the one by St. Basil the Great, was added into the NO mass, so that should no longer be an issue.

I guess you've answered your own question, then  Wink.  

Unfortunately, I have to plead ignorance of the Tridentine Mass, so I cannot comment on it.

Right, and I'm not too knowledgeable about either mass Tongue. I barely even know the DL well enough (hoping to change that soon). While the epiklesis in the NO mass might now be acceptable, it's possible that some other parts of the NO mass have changed which would make it unacceptable from an Orthodox viewpoint. That's why I'm wondering. I guess it might make a good question for a priest who is well-read on the topic of liturgies.
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« Reply #122 on: August 15, 2011, 04:38:03 PM »

So out of curiosity, how should the Orthodox understand the NO mass in the context of a hopeful reunification (several thousand years in the making Tongue)? The liturgical abuses notwithstanding, how are we to understand a properly performed NO mass from a liturgical standpoint? Is there anything which would be considered truly deficient?

I'm not really sure I can answer that for you.  As I said to the OP, if you're really interested there's plenty of material out there for you to study and learn from about it, including the 2 books I posted links for.  I believe that a proper knowledge and understanding of the N.O. Mass would reveal that there is nothing "truly deficient", although I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

What I have to say about reunification is of no consequence and carries no weight.  That understood, part of my personal vision of it is that the liturgical rites and liturgies currently used in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches would be mutually accepted by both.  That is, whichever liturgy/rite is currently used by any particular church will be allowed to be continued to be used, and no one's liturgy/rite will be imposed upon another.  Whether that would be acceptable or would happen, only God knows.



As an example of what I mean by "deficient," I think that Western Rite Orthodox Churches insert an explicit epiklesis into the Tridentine mass because it only has an implicit epiklesis. It is my understanding, however, that an explicit epiklesis, modeled on the one by St. Basil the Great, was added into the NO mass, so that should no longer be an issue.

How silly is this complaint.  The Epiklesis is, itself, an innovation.

In the earliest eastern Byzantine liturgy, what is now called the epiklesis, were once called the bidding prayers and were used at the beginning of the liturgy to welcome the gifts [bread and wine] as they were brought into the cathedral.

The long view makes the whole discussion of "mine is better than yours" look silly.

M.
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« Reply #123 on: August 15, 2011, 04:48:27 PM »

So out of curiosity, how should the Orthodox understand the NO mass in the context of a hopeful reunification (several thousand years in the making Tongue)? The liturgical abuses notwithstanding, how are we to understand a properly performed NO mass from a liturgical standpoint? Is there anything which would be considered truly deficient?

I'm not really sure I can answer that for you.  As I said to the OP, if you're really interested there's plenty of material out there for you to study and learn from about it, including the 2 books I posted links for.  I believe that a proper knowledge and understanding of the N.O. Mass would reveal that there is nothing "truly deficient", although I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

What I have to say about reunification is of no consequence and carries no weight.  That understood, part of my personal vision of it is that the liturgical rites and liturgies currently used in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches would be mutually accepted by both.  That is, whichever liturgy/rite is currently used by any particular church will be allowed to be continued to be used, and no one's liturgy/rite will be imposed upon another.  Whether that would be acceptable or would happen, only God knows.



As an example of what I mean by "deficient," I think that Western Rite Orthodox Churches insert an explicit epiklesis into the Tridentine mass because it only has an implicit epiklesis. It is my understanding, however, that an explicit epiklesis, modeled on the one by St. Basil the Great, was added into the NO mass, so that should no longer be an issue.

How silly is this complaint.  The Epiklesis is, itself, an innovation.

In the earliest eastern Byzantine liturgy, what is now called the epiklesis, were once called the bidding prayers and were used at the beginning of the liturgy to welcome the gifts [bread and wine] as they were brought into the cathedral.

The long view makes the whole discussion of "mine is better than yours" look silly.

M.

With that I have no argument whatsoever  Wink!

Thanks, too, for that piece of information on the epiklesis!
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« Reply #124 on: August 15, 2011, 08:30:12 PM »

The long view makes the whole discussion of "mine is better than yours" look silly.

Mary, you're probably right about the tone these discussions tend to take, but surely you admit there are liturgical acts/structures/prayers/practices/&c. which are better than others?

The epiklesis of the Constantinopolitan Rite is surely theologically superior to some that are floating around? I would argue the entire anaphora of St John's liturgy has more spirit and truth in it than what passes as the eucharistic prayer in some protestant worship.
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« Reply #125 on: August 15, 2011, 09:31:08 PM »

Eastern Orthodoxy: Our Liturgical Reforms are Older than Yours.
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« Reply #126 on: August 15, 2011, 09:37:42 PM »

Eastern Orthodoxy: Our Liturgical Reforms are Older than Yours.
LOL
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« Reply #127 on: August 15, 2011, 09:43:45 PM »

The long view makes the whole discussion of "mine is better than yours" look silly.

Mary, you're probably right about the tone these discussions tend to take, but surely you admit there are liturgical acts/structures/prayers/practices/&c. which are better than others?


Since I am a Catholic and believe that you are an Orthodox Catholic I can say without hesitation that I am more than willing to allow my Church to decide what is validly liturgy and what is not, what is wise and what is not.  I would happily extend that to all Orthodox jurisdictions who use their own liturgical rites and rituals.

Do I have preferences?  Yes and no.  Depends on the day and what I am craving spiritually.  There are times when the Novus Ordo hits the spot...a recited daily mass will do on those occasions.  It happens.

The one thing I can say truthfully is that no liturgy is fulfilling to me if I lack a connection to the people worshiping with me.  That would be my particular preference.  To  worship with those whom I know and love.

But in the main, I am perfectly happy to allow the Church to direct the growth and development of the liturgical rites and rituals.  There is more than enough in the several liturgical traditions to satisfy me on every day of the liturgical calendar.  Most of the time it's more work than I have the energy to do, in fact.  But I don't look at any valid liturgy and turn up my nose.

M.
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« Reply #128 on: August 15, 2011, 09:52:14 PM »



That is all.

EDIT: It's a joke. Don't read into it.
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« Reply #129 on: August 15, 2011, 09:53:10 PM »

Eastern Orthodoxy: Our Liturgical Reforms are Older than Yours.

Orthodox one-upmanship at its finest. Wink
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« Reply #130 on: August 15, 2011, 09:54:54 PM »

The long view makes the whole discussion of "mine is better than yours" look silly.

Mary, you're probably right about the tone these discussions tend to take, but surely you admit there are liturgical acts/structures/prayers/practices/&c. which are better than others?


Since I am a Catholic and believe that you are an Orthodox Catholic I can say without hesitation that I am more than willing to allow my Church to decide what is validly liturgy and what is not, what is wise and what is not.  I would happily extend that to all Orthodox jurisdictions who use their own liturgical rites and rituals.

Do I have preferences?  Yes and no.  Depends on the day and what I am craving spiritually.  There are times when the Novus Ordo hits the spot...a recited daily mass will do on those occasions.  It happens.

The one thing I can say truthfully is that no liturgy is fulfilling to me if I lack a connection to the people worshiping with me.  That would be my particular preference.  To  worship with those whom I know and love.

But in the main, I am perfectly happy to allow the Church to direct the growth and development of the liturgical rites and rituals.  There is more than enough in the several liturgical traditions to satisfy me on every day of the liturgical calendar.  Most of the time it's more work than I have the energy to do, in fact.  But I don't look at any valid liturgy and turn up my nose.

M.

I appreciate what you are saying, but what constitutes "validity"? Would a mass lacking the sursum corda, eucharistic preface, sanctus/benedictus, words of institution, prayer of oblation, &c., still be a mass?

I know I'm talking hypothetically, but ...
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« Reply #131 on: August 15, 2011, 09:59:40 PM »

I would suspect any gathering of two or more who pray together and share the Eucharist would be considered a complete mass/divine liturgy, in the end.

The rest is more for our benefit, but does not preclude 'validity'.
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« Reply #132 on: August 15, 2011, 10:04:08 PM »

The long view makes the whole discussion of "mine is better than yours" look silly.

Mary, you're probably right about the tone these discussions tend to take, but surely you admit there are liturgical acts/structures/prayers/practices/&c. which are better than others?


Since I am a Catholic and believe that you are an Orthodox Catholic I can say without hesitation that I am more than willing to allow my Church to decide what is validly liturgy and what is not, what is wise and what is not.  I would happily extend that to all Orthodox jurisdictions who use their own liturgical rites and rituals.

Do I have preferences?  Yes and no.  Depends on the day and what I am craving spiritually.  There are times when the Novus Ordo hits the spot...a recited daily mass will do on those occasions.  It happens.

The one thing I can say truthfully is that no liturgy is fulfilling to me if I lack a connection to the people worshiping with me.  That would be my particular preference.  To  worship with those whom I know and love.

But in the main, I am perfectly happy to allow the Church to direct the growth and development of the liturgical rites and rituals.  There is more than enough in the several liturgical traditions to satisfy me on every day of the liturgical calendar.  Most of the time it's more work than I have the energy to do, in fact.  But I don't look at any valid liturgy and turn up my nose.

M.

I appreciate what you are saying, but what constitutes "validity"? Would a mass lacking the sursum corda, eucharistic preface, sanctus/benedictus, words of institution, prayer of oblation, &c., still be a mass?

I know I'm talking hypothetically, but ...

I understand.  But it is the Church's role to answer those questions.  It is what the Church accepts as valid liturgy that guides what I do, and how I accept all rites and rituals...regardless of my personal preferences.

M.
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« Reply #133 on: August 15, 2011, 10:06:08 PM »

The long view makes the whole discussion of "mine is better than yours" look silly.

Mary, you're probably right about the tone these discussions tend to take, but surely you admit there are liturgical acts/structures/prayers/practices/&c. which are better than others?


Since I am a Catholic and believe that you are an Orthodox Catholic I can say without hesitation that I am more than willing to allow my Church to decide what is validly liturgy and what is not, what is wise and what is not.  I would happily extend that to all Orthodox jurisdictions who use their own liturgical rites and rituals.
You don't have either the authority nor the jurisdiction to extend that past your nose.

This is why you claims to Catholicism fall flat: you can't call foolishness foolishness if the Vatican says its OK.  Well, we have the Fathers to stand on, so don't need, nor should we trust, the Vatican's imprematur, as it will tolerate the intolerable.

Wisdom doesn't vary by jurisdiciton.

Do I have preferences?  Yes and no.  Depends on the day and what I am craving spiritually.
 


There are times when the Novus Ordo hits the spot...a recited daily mass will do on those occasions.  It happens.
nice that you can get your spiritual  "fix." as the swedes say "one man's bread makes another dead."  Though a lot of what is being talked about is poison, no matter who swallows it.  Some just don't realize it.

The one thing I can say truthfully is that no liturgy is fulfilling to me if I lack a connection to the people worshiping with me.  That would be my particular preference.  To  worship with those whom I know and love.
kumbaya.

But in the main, I am perfectly happy to allow the Church to direct the growth and development of the liturgical rites and rituals.
and evidently their decay and demise.

There is more than enough in the several liturgical traditions to satisfy me on every day of the liturgical calendar.  Most of the time it's more work than I have the energy to do, in fact.  But I don't look at any valid liturgy and turn up my nose.
That you have lost your sense of smell doesn't mean we should.
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« Reply #134 on: August 15, 2011, 10:12:33 PM »

The long view makes the whole discussion of "mine is better than yours" look silly.

Mary, you're probably right about the tone these discussions tend to take, but surely you admit there are liturgical acts/structures/prayers/practices/&c. which are better than others?


Since I am a Catholic and believe that you are an Orthodox Catholic I can say without hesitation that I am more than willing to allow my Church to decide what is validly liturgy and what is not, what is wise and what is not.  I would happily extend that to all Orthodox jurisdictions who use their own liturgical rites and rituals.
You don't have either the authority nor the jurisdiction to extend that past your nose.


But I am free to say it in any event, whether you agree or not.

There are those here who don't think the way you do.  I was and am speaking to them.
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