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Author Topic: Just got back from attending my first (and possibly last) mass...  (Read 16765 times) Average Rating: 1
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2011, 02:30:41 AM »

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i".
That's the original way to do it, and how it's done in many EO Churches (and all in the Old World I think).

I have never heard it recited in an EO church with the "we."
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Nicene-Constantinopolitan_Creed

Almost all the rest of the prayers of the Divine Liturgy are in we form. I wouldn't be surprised if the communicant prayers that are said together were plural in Greek.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 02:32:19 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2011, 02:38:06 AM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.

Don't you think I know about the changes that have been made thus far? St James to St Basil, St Basil to St John Chrysostom, St John Chrysostom to today... While things have been added and taken away, it would still be recognizable to the earliest Christians and still keeps everything intact... We've never gutted and neutered our service down to the bare bones.

Yeah it hasn't changed but it has, we get it.

Your triumphalism rings hollow.

lulz @ your bolded statement.

You realize we have heard that before?
Are you denying that the palms used when Christ entered Jerusalem were NOT made of gold and swung in a liturgical fashion?

...you dirty evangelical, you.

Palms? I think it is funny many Orthodox don't know "palm" is actually Greek for "pussy willow".

At my parish they do actually use "palm" leaves as we understand the word in contemporary English. But it's OCA, so what do they know about real Orthodoxy.
Blasphemy. You defy Isaiah and the Righteous King James.

"And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the PALM of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

Pussy willow is in the Septuagint. 
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« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2011, 02:39:42 AM »

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i".
That's the original way to do it, and how it's done in many EO Churches (and all in the Old World I think).

I have never heard it recited in an EO church with the "we."

Because you are a little young.

But nothing ever changes. Certainly not in virtue of the Latin usage.

I am a grandma, little one.

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« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2011, 02:40:00 AM »

Pussy willow is in the Septuagint.
ALL HAIL THE PUSSY WILLOW.

Pssh, look at those Protestants using Palms. They probably use Cambodian Myrrh in their high church services instead of Yemeni. What Western-centric Franks.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 02:40:44 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2011, 04:21:11 AM »

So I attended mass today with my brother and his fiance. (with my Priests permission)
I have to say, I was somewhat surprised, and yet, somewhat not.

It was a parish that used the novus ordo, and thus wasn't entirely "traditional". I was shocked to say the least, when the first hymn that was sung, was "Come Let Us Worship", a Protestant praise-worship hymn I grew up with in the Protestant Church.

However, I quickly got some comfort when we were responding with "Lord Have Mercies" and "Peace be with you" "And Also With You"... But most of the hymns seemed to be Protestant in origin.

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i". (I continued in our fashion) Of course, I didn't say "and the son" when it came to the Holy Spirit.

I was most surprised about communion. (which of course, I didn't go up and receive, though my sister-in-law invited me) First of all, it almost seemed like there was an element of an epiclesis there (that is, calling the Holy Spirit down), though you would have to do a little stretching to make the connection.

Also, I was really shocked to see that it was not the Priest that administered communion, but laypeople. The Priest handed the wafers to each communicant, but the laypeople with the chalices were the ones who would administer the cup to the congregants.

But I will give the Roman Catholic Church credit, I am glad they administered BOTH.

Also, I was shocked to see that they had little girls as altar servers. (The parish had just had a Priest that had been caught in sexual misconduct, so this surprised me more)
Apparently the Priests would also let the helpers consume the rest of the cups afterward. (of course, In our Church, it is only the Priest that does this)

Overall, what shocked me the most, was that it was this one girl (I wouldn't have cared about the sex of the person) who led most of the service and the singing. It almost seemed like the Priest(s) (one Priest, one Monsignor) were just there to provide the sacraments.

There was some comfort at times, and other times, there was simple disconnection. I will say that I can see why so many Roman Catholics are so upset by Vatican II.

Not meaning to offend here, but I sympathize with many of our Roman Catholic brethren out there. I hope and pray the Tridentine Mass comes back into common usage for you all.

My first (and probably last) experience with a Roman Catholic Mass was neither really bad, nor really good. There were good things and bad things. But I'll just say that it helped me cherish our Liturgy, and our services even more.
This is the real difference between the Greek rite orthodox churches and the Roman Catholic Church - the liturgy. Your liturgy is beautiful. Right now, the Roman liturgy is a mess. I am sorry that you saw this side of us - but let's be real, what you saw was typical, not out of the ordinary.

But it's getting better.

Also, Vatican II didn't call for these changes. It was the clergy who responded to the council. The council fathers didn't want anything like what you saw.
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« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2011, 05:07:14 AM »

So I attended mass today with my brother and his fiance. (with my Priests permission)
I have to say, I was somewhat surprised, and yet, somewhat not.

It was a parish that used the novus ordo, and thus wasn't entirely "traditional". I was shocked to say the least, when the first hymn that was sung, was "Come Let Us Worship", a Protestant praise-worship hymn I grew up with in the Protestant Church.

However, I quickly got some comfort when we were responding with "Lord Have Mercies" and "Peace be with you" "And Also With You"... But most of the hymns seemed to be Protestant in origin.

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i". (I continued in our fashion) Of course, I didn't say "and the son" when it came to the Holy Spirit.

I was most surprised about communion. (which of course, I didn't go up and receive, though my sister-in-law invited me) First of all, it almost seemed like there was an element of an epiclesis there (that is, calling the Holy Spirit down), though you would have to do a little stretching to make the connection.

Also, I was really shocked to see that it was not the Priest that administered communion, but laypeople. The Priest handed the wafers to each communicant, but the laypeople with the chalices were the ones who would administer the cup to the congregants.

But I will give the Roman Catholic Church credit, I am glad they administered BOTH.

Also, I was shocked to see that they had little girls as altar servers. (The parish had just had a Priest that had been caught in sexual misconduct, so this surprised me more)
Apparently the Priests would also let the helpers consume the rest of the cups afterward. (of course, In our Church, it is only the Priest that does this)

Overall, what shocked me the most, was that it was this one girl (I wouldn't have cared about the sex of the person) who led most of the service and the singing. It almost seemed like the Priest(s) (one Priest, one Monsignor) were just there to provide the sacraments.

There was some comfort at times, and other times, there was simple disconnection. I will say that I can see why so many Roman Catholics are so upset by Vatican II.

Not meaning to offend here, but I sympathize with many of our Roman Catholic brethren out there. I hope and pray the Tridentine Mass comes back into common usage for you all.

My first (and probably last) experience with a Roman Catholic Mass was neither really bad, nor really good. There were good things and bad things. But I'll just say that it helped me cherish our Liturgy, and our services even more.

Although I do agree with you that the liturgy in it's current form may be imperfect, even at times dysfunctional, I think the approach you have taken to criticizing the RCC is misguided. As somebody stated earlier, before we start pointing fingers at how bad the RCC liturgy is or how terrible the Vatican II was, we ought to be continually examining ourselves, ensuring that we keep the way of the Fathers and the Holy Tradition that has been passed unto us. Looking at the Orthodox Church globally today, it is clear that imperfections yet remain and, at times, overrun our Churches. Putting aside any EO/OO conflicts for a moment, the best thing we could possibly do for the RCC is we truly believe something is wrong is simple: pray, pray, and pray. Even today, the RCC is still doing amazing things around the world, being the single largest source of humanitarian aid in many places and serving people around the world. The best we can do is to pray that God would heal these divisions and bring unity to the Church.

Honestly, I can relate to this in my personal life. In the past, when I was consistently attending a Protestant Church for some time, my first instinct was always to say to myself, "Sheesh, this is not in any way how the Church Fathers intended worship to be done. This is not how the Church was meant to be." I would be sitting there, a big ball of discontent with the situation around me. Inside, I was pleading, "Where is the liturgy? Where are the Divine Mysteries?" Soon enough, though, I realized two things. Firstly, I knew I had to sprint back to the Orthodox Church Smiley Secondly, though, was that simply criticizing was not helping anybody; rather, I had to pray! And I think that's the best thing we can do.

Sorry if I offended at all, that is not my intention.

In Christ,
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« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2011, 07:22:59 AM »

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i".
That's the original way to do it, and how it's done in many EO Churches (and all in the Old World I think).

I have never heard it recited in an EO church with the "we."
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Nicene-Constantinopolitan_Creed

Almost all the rest of the prayers of the Divine Liturgy are in we form. I wouldn't be surprised if the communicant prayers that are said together were plural in Greek.
They shouldn't: you are communing as an individual.  You can't take communion for someone else.

The Fathers in Council said the Creed in the first person plural, as they were enunciating what the Church believes.  We say it in first person plural to indicate our agreement with her.

Btw, even in private prayer we always say "Our Father Who is in heaven," never "My Father," and at Presanctified we all say "O Lord and Master of my life," not "our lives."
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« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2011, 09:40:39 AM »

To clarify my earlier comments: I am suspicious of anyone who wants to take a visible role in the leading of worship. I am willing to change my mind, of course, but naturally I find people suspect. Religion can be the domain of show-offs. Perhaps I am judgmental. I am sure I am. Please forgive me. Etc.

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.

Don't you think I know about the changes that have been made thus far? St James to St Basil, St Basil to St John Chrysostom, St John Chrysostom to today... While things have been added and taken away, it would still be recognizable to the earliest Christians and still keeps everything intact... We've never gutted and neutered our service down to the bare bones.

Yeah it hasn't changed but it has, we get it.

Your triumphalism rings hollow.

lulz @ your bolded statement.

You realize we have heard that before?
I was never that keen on the "unchanging liturgy" argument before. To be sure, I am more comfortable with the changes Orthodoxy has made, but I don't like to pretend that they didn't happen in very noticeable ways.

FWIW, I think a properly administered NO liturgy is not a bad thing.
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« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2011, 09:56:55 AM »

Apparently the Priests would also let the helpers consume the rest of the cups afterward. (of course, In our Church, it is only the Priest that does this)

I was also once allowed to. When I was 5 or something.

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i".
That's the original way to do it, and how it's done in many EO Churches (and all in the Old World I think).

I don't think so.
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« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2011, 11:47:02 AM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.

Don't you think I know about the changes that have been made thus far? St James to St Basil, St Basil to St John Chrysostom, St John Chrysostom to today... While things have been added and taken away, it would still be recognizable to the earliest Christians and still keeps everything intact... We've never gutted and neutered our service down to the bare bones.

Nope, not at all. I hear the Beatitudes in every Greek and Antiochian parish I've ever been to.  angel
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« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2011, 01:53:23 PM »

Through the years, I wandered in and out of Roman Catholic churches and Devin's experience was pretty much my own...Especially the bit about a little girl leading the music and etc. It seemed like in every parish there was one 14- or 15-year-old girl who wanted to sing in front of everybody.

Does the word "cantor" mean anything to ya?

This girl was a little different than a cantor in this parish. It definitely seemed like she was a "worship leader" like in most Protestant Churches. (the local Roman Catholic Parish also has a worship leader)

I must say from the descriptions here, some of you really do no know the Latin rite liturgy enough to pontificate.  

I don't care if you don't like the music but you really ought to know more before you speak.

I'm sorry my friend, but if you can't see the similarities that worship has with Protestant Churches, then I don't know what to tell you.

There is a big difference between what she was doing and what cantors do.

What was she doing?

She would stand at the pulpit/stand thing... Say, turn your hymnals to such-and-such page to this song... Then everyone would start singing (though she was mainly leading the singing)...


That makes her a cantor.

Do you know the names of the parts of the mass where she led the singing?...

Do you know the structure of the normative Roman liturgy?

Coming from the Orthodox perspective, she most certainly isn't a cantor... lol

All I know is they are hymns that apparently weren't structured in. (that is, unlike hymns in Orthodox worship)

Also, yes, I did some reading, and she technically fulfills the role of a "cantor" according to the Roman Catholic Church. But pardon me for being closed-minded, but if she isn't serving the role according to the Orthodox tradition, then she isn't a cantor.
But yes, technically she could be considered a "cantor", at least as defined by the Roman Catholic Church.

Most of what a cantor does, contrary to your astute observation, concerns prayers that are not hymns and are part of the structure of the liturgy.  There are hymns of course and just as there is great variety in the hymns of the east, there is also great variety in the hymnography of the west.  In fact the hymns can change dramatically from one liturgy to the next in parishes where there are four or five liturgies on a Sunday.  Time and talent also has an influence on what you will find in any given parish.

If that were not the case I would not have raised the issue with you in the first place.  I wanted to see how much you know.

Now I see.
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« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2011, 02:28:54 PM »

Through the years, I wandered in and out of Roman Catholic churches and Devin's experience was pretty much my own...Especially the bit about a little girl leading the music and etc. It seemed like in every parish there was one 14- or 15-year-old girl who wanted to sing in front of everybody.

Does the word "cantor" mean anything to ya?

This girl was a little different than a cantor in this parish. It definitely seemed like she was a "worship leader" like in most Protestant Churches. (the local Roman Catholic Parish also has a worship leader)

I must say from the descriptions here, some of you really do no know the Latin rite liturgy enough to pontificate.  

I don't care if you don't like the music but you really ought to know more before you speak.

I'm sorry my friend, but if you can't see the similarities that worship has with Protestant Churches, then I don't know what to tell you.

There is a big difference between what she was doing and what cantors do.

What was she doing?

She would stand at the pulpit/stand thing... Say, turn your hymnals to such-and-such page to this song... Then everyone would start singing (though she was mainly leading the singing)...


That makes her a cantor.

Do you know the names of the parts of the mass where she led the singing?...

Do you know the structure of the normative Roman liturgy?

Coming from the Orthodox perspective, she most certainly isn't a cantor... lol

All I know is they are hymns that apparently weren't structured in. (that is, unlike hymns in Orthodox worship)

Also, yes, I did some reading, and she technically fulfills the role of a "cantor" according to the Roman Catholic Church. But pardon me for being closed-minded, but if she isn't serving the role according to the Orthodox tradition, then she isn't a cantor.
But yes, technically she could be considered a "cantor", at least as defined by the Roman Catholic Church.

Most of what a cantor does, contrary to your astute observation, concerns prayers that are not hymns and are part of the structure of the liturgy.  There are hymns of course and just as there is great variety in the hymns of the east, there is also great variety in the hymnography of the west.  In fact the hymns can change dramatically from one liturgy to the next in parishes where there are four or five liturgies on a Sunday.  Time and talent also has an influence on what you will find in any given parish.

If that were not the case I would not have raised the issue with you in the first place.  I wanted to see how much you know.

Now I see.

So what if I don't know a lot about it? why would I care to know a lot? I went to the mass to have at least minimal experience. The Roman Catholic Church isn't a part of the Church, and therefore, I don't care what she has to say or what she does. I wanted to see what Roman Catholics experience each Sunday, because I was already aware of what most Protestants experience each Sunday.

What I saw didn't impress me, and in fact shows me that sadly, the RCC has dumbed down her services enough to where it is far from fulfilling to her parishioners, and is only putting the salt on the wound of her already increasingly disillusioned members. (which includes my soon-to-be sister-in-law)

Frankly, it amazes me how Byzantine Catholics can even stand to be a part of a ecclessial assembly/body that condones such type of worship as being supposedly suitable for Our Lords Day.

Such worship is simply at a low level of spirituality, like the "beginnings" of such spirituality. Its a worship that just doesn't/hasn't moved on. It is better than most Protestant services, but it still isn't enough.

I had hoped maybe the Roman Catholic Church wasn't as far away as I thought, but alas, I was wrong, and it is as far, if not farther from the Church than I had previously thought.
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« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2011, 03:09:59 PM »



So what if I don't know a lot about it?

I am well aware.  Just as long as you get to say what you want.  You could actually do that without any experience at all.   Just read what others say.  Clearly you've done just that.

M.
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« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2011, 06:01:01 PM »

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i".
That's the original way to do it, and how it's done in many EO Churches (and all in the Old World I think).

I have never heard it recited in an EO church with the "we."
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Nicene-Constantinopolitan_Creed

Almost all the rest of the prayers of the Divine Liturgy are in we form. I wouldn't be surprised if the communicant prayers that are said together were plural in Greek.
They shouldn't: you are communing as an individual.  You can't take communion for someone else.

The Fathers in Council said the Creed in the first person plural, as they were enunciating what the Church believes.  We say it in first person plural to indicate our agreement with her.

Btw, even in private prayer we always say "Our Father Who is in heaven," never "My Father," and at Presanctified we all say "O Lord and Master of my life," not "our lives."

Excellent points.

In addition, when Protestants and Catholics refer to Jesus Christ as "My buddy and friend" it doesn't sound right.

Christ is our Lord and our God. We worship Him as our King and our God.

I am so grateful that I have found the truth of Orthodoxy with right worship and correct doctrines.

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« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2011, 06:43:55 PM »

Everything else has just reached a point where it is basic and unfulfilling...

This is an Orthodox board. Whom, exactly, are you trying to convince?

The majority of the participants on this board are either some form of Orthodox (Eastern or Oriental), Byzantine Catholic, or have conceded in some fashion to the beauty of the Orthodox Liturgy.

So again, what new or interesting revelations do you have to add to the conversation?

Also, I think it is completely unfair to base your entire opinion of Catholicism based on attending one Mass at one parish. If I had let the opinion of the parish I was raised in dictate my opinion of Orthodoxy, I would be Protestant right now.

I am not suggesting that you become Catholic, I am just saying that based on what I have read and experienced in my own life, different parishes (both Catholic and Orthodox) have different ways of doing things, and one should not base one's opinion off one one sole experience.

To come on here and write a post that basically states how superior Orthodox worship is to Catholic worship is both arrogant and insulting to the Catholic participants on this board. Furthermore, I fail to see how it benefits you or anyone else here spiritually to go on about how much better the Orthodox Liturgy is to the Catholic Mass.

What it DOES remind me of, is how the Pharisee thanked God in the Temple, that he was not like Publican in his form of prayer, and how much better he was because of it.

That is what I DO see.

So thank you for that.
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« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2011, 06:48:50 PM »

I went to a mass for my cousin's confirmation this summer, and my wife (a Methodist) was shocked at how Protestant the whole service seemed.
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« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2011, 07:00:09 PM »

In addition, when Protestants and Catholics refer to Jesus Christ as "My buddy and friend" it doesn't sound right.
I can't stand this either. I never said it when I was a Protestant, and I don't say it now as a Catholic either.
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« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2011, 07:15:18 PM »

In addition, when Protestants and Catholics refer to Jesus Christ as "My buddy and friend" it doesn't sound right.
I can't stand this either. I never said it when I was a Protestant, and I don't say it now as a Catholic either.

If Jesus ain't your friend, who is?

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« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2011, 07:30:22 PM »

In addition, when Protestants and Catholics refer to Jesus Christ as "My buddy and friend" it doesn't sound right.
I can't stand this either. I never said it when I was a Protestant, and I don't say it now as a Catholic either.

If Jesus ain't your friend, who is?


At least he's not your boyfriend, as I've heard him depicted as in some Protestant songs.  Grin

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2011, 07:44:07 PM »

In addition, when Protestants and Catholics refer to Jesus Christ as "My buddy and friend" it doesn't sound right.
I can't stand this either. I never said it when I was a Protestant, and I don't say it now as a Catholic either.

If Jesus ain't your friend, who is?


At least he's not your boyfriend, as I've heard him depicted as in some Protestant songs.  Grin

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« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2011, 08:21:37 PM »

In addition, when Protestants and Catholics refer to Jesus Christ as "My buddy and friend" it doesn't sound right.
I can't stand this either. I never said it when I was a Protestant, and I don't say it now as a Catholic either.
If Jesus ain't your friend, who is?
To be fair, I always liked the hymn "What a Friend We Have in Jesus" though. I just don't refer to him as "friend" outside of singing that song. I prefer "Lord" or "Savior."
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« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2011, 11:08:01 AM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.
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« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2011, 11:11:00 AM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.
You sound surprised.
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« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2011, 11:15:06 AM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.
I attended similar ones as Devin did in NJ, NY, VA, GA, AL, FL and CA. What does that make me, Schultz? Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2011, 11:19:44 AM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.
I attended similar ones as Devin did in NJ, NY, VA, GA, AL, FL and CA. What does that make me, Schultz? Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

They're still worst possible examples.  It doesn't matter how widespread they appear to be, the generation that perpetrates this liturgical nightmare is dying out.  These terrible examples of the Roman liturgy will soon be a thing of the past, particularly if Pope Benedict lives as long as his predecessor.

Perhaps if you attended a mass by Fr. George Rutler or Fr. Dwight Longenecker, to name just a couple of priests at the forefront of the "Reform of the Reform" movement, your experiences would be different.

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« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2011, 11:20:08 AM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.
You sound surprised.

Not particularly, but I still had to point it out.
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« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2011, 11:25:47 AM »

You have a point, Schultz. I could mention that my parish celebrates the Roman liturgy quite reverently, but I doubt that would matter one iota to those who have already made up their mind about Catholicism. I wonder what the point of this threads is? I mean, those who are Catholic are not going to change just because of someone's bad experience at a liturgy, just as no one who is not Catholic isn't going to become Catholic just because I mentioned how good the liturgy is at my parish.
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« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2011, 11:27:13 AM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.
I attended similar ones as Devin did in NJ, NY, VA, GA, AL, FL and CA. What does that make me, Schultz? Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

I think it should also be noted that there are things about even a very reverential Novus Ordo liturgy that are going to displease some people.  

One of the things that has NOT happened since the Novus Ordo mass became the ordinary liturgy of the Roman rite is the development of a reliable ability to discern the difference between personal liturgical preferences and out-right abuse.

Mary
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« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2011, 12:09:21 PM »

Hmm... I guess it is probably going to be a moot point to you Schultz to bring up that Roman Catholics on another forum have said that my experience with the Mass is actually a normal experience in their church...

Not to mention that my soon-to-be sister-in-law also seems to be somewhat (to say the least) disappointed in the Roman Catholic Church due to this and other factors.

My whole point is not to sit like the Pharisee and say "well I'm glad we aren't THAT bad"... My point is to see where Roman Catholics are coming from, what they experience, and so, when people ask (and they will ask), I can make a proper comparison.

Also, I see that it definitely would have to be a condition for reunion for Rome to completely return to the Tridentine (or even Pre-Tridentine) Mass, and completely abandon the Novus Ordo.
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« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2011, 12:39:30 PM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.
I attended similar ones as Devin did in NJ, NY, VA, GA, AL, FL and CA. What does that make me, Schultz? Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

They're still worst possible examples.  It doesn't matter how widespread they appear to be, the generation that perpetrates this liturgical nightmare is dying out.  These terrible examples of the Roman liturgy will soon be a thing of the past, particularly if Pope Benedict lives as long as his predecessor.

Perhaps if you attended a mass by Fr. George Rutler or Fr. Dwight Longenecker, to name just a couple of priests at the forefront of the "Reform of the Reform" movement, your experiences would be different.


I'm sure there are worse examples out there. I have no doubt of that. Truth be known I've been to some less than inspiring Orthodox liturgies. My experience in all those churches is nearly identical to what Devin experienced. I do understand that my experience is only that, but it's sadly not as uncommon as some think. I did experience a very reverent NO at school in Florida by Fr. Joseph Fessio, though much of the rest at AMU involved guitars, bongos and lots of ad libbing. Sad I will admit that I'm just as hopeful for Benedict's ability for transformation.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2011, 12:45:24 PM »

I recently attended a low mass. I rather liked it.  And no, i didn't ask for any Orthodox priest's "blessing" to do so.
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« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2011, 12:49:20 PM »


Also, I see that it definitely would have to be a condition for reunion for Rome to completely return to the Tridentine (or even Pre-Tridentine) Mass, and completely abandon the Novus Ordo.

Yup...there it is.  That Orthodox line in the sand...regardless of realities...

That is what makes me despise observations out of ignorance, and to feel free to say so.
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« Reply #77 on: August 15, 2011, 12:51:08 PM »

I recently attended a low mass. I rather liked it.  And no, i didn't ask for any Orthodox priest's "blessing" to do so.
Ok?  Huh Did anyone ask if you did?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #78 on: August 15, 2011, 12:51:54 PM »


Also, I see that it definitely would have to be a condition for reunion for Rome to completely return to the Tridentine (or even Pre-Tridentine) Mass, and completely abandon the Novus Ordo.

Yup...there it is.  That Orthodox line in the sand...regardless of realities...

That is what makes me despise observations out of ignorance, and to feel free to say so.
We can despise your observations if we wish? Do we have your permission? Wink

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #79 on: August 15, 2011, 12:55:25 PM »

I recently attended a low mass. I rather liked it. And no, i didn't ask for any Orthodox priest's "blessing" to do so.
Ok?  Huh Did anyone ask if you did?

In Christ,
Andrew
No, true. but it cracks me up to read " with my Spiritual Father's blessing" As if he lives in a cave or hermitage.
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« Reply #80 on: August 15, 2011, 12:56:14 PM »

Hmm... I guess it is probably going to be a moot point to you Schultz to bring up that Roman Catholics on another forum have said that my experience with the Mass is actually a normal experience in their church...

Not to mention that my soon-to-be sister-in-law also seems to be somewhat (to say the least) disappointed in the Roman Catholic Church due to this and other factors.

My whole point is not to sit like the Pharisee and say "well I'm glad we aren't THAT bad"... My point is to see where Roman Catholics are coming from, what they experience, and so, when people ask (and they will ask), I can make a proper comparison.

Also, I see that it definitely would have to be a condition for reunion for Rome to completely return to the Tridentine (or even Pre-Tridentine) Mass, and completely abandon the Novus Ordo.

1.  To get a proper idea where RC's are coming from, you would, I think, need far greater exposure to many, many more Masses of the various rites, as well as a thorough understanding of the Mass itself, both N.O., Tridentine, and any others.  If you're sincerely interested, you might want to start by reading this:  http://www.amazon.com/Cardinal-Donald-Wuerl-Mike-AquilinasThe/dp/B0052TEAMS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1313427156&sr=8-5, and maybe this, too: http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Early-Christians-Mike-Aquilina/dp/1592763200/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313427219&sr=1-1.  And....what will you be comparing with what?  

2.  Now, I've not heard *that* before from Orthodox.  What, Catholics wouldn't be allowed to keep their own liturgical rite?
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« Reply #81 on: August 15, 2011, 12:58:02 PM »

I recently attended a low mass. I rather liked it. And no, i didn't ask for any Orthodox priest's "blessing" to do so.
Ok?  Huh Did anyone ask if you did?

In Christ,
Andrew
No, true. but it cracks me up to read " with my Spiritual Father's blessing" As if he lives in a cave or hermitage.
Some people just like to be extra sure I guess. :p My priest has told us he's not our guru. Grin

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2011, 01:05:50 PM »

Hmm... I guess it is probably going to be a moot point to you Schultz to bring up that Roman Catholics on another forum have said that my experience with the Mass is actually a normal experience in their church...

Not to mention that my soon-to-be sister-in-law also seems to be somewhat (to say the least) disappointed in the Roman Catholic Church due to this and other factors.

My whole point is not to sit like the Pharisee and say "well I'm glad we aren't THAT bad"... My point is to see where Roman Catholics are coming from, what they experience, and so, when people ask (and they will ask), I can make a proper comparison.

Also, I see that it definitely would have to be a condition for reunion for Rome to completely return to the Tridentine (or even Pre-Tridentine) Mass, and completely abandon the Novus Ordo.

1.  To get a proper idea where RC's are coming from, you would, I think, need far greater exposure to many, many more Masses of the various rites, as well as a thorough understanding of the Mass itself, both N.O., Tridentine, and any others.  If you're sincerely interested, you might want to start by reading this:  http://www.amazon.com/Cardinal-Donald-Wuerl-Mike-AquilinasThe/dp/B0052TEAMS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1313427156&sr=8-5, and maybe this, too: http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Early-Christians-Mike-Aquilina/dp/1592763200/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313427219&sr=1-1.  And....what will you be comparing with what?  

2.  Now, I've not heard *that* before from Orthodox.  What, Catholics wouldn't be allowed to keep their own liturgical rite?

2. Not when it is as atrocious as the Novus Ordo. It has to be the Tridentine, or the any of the Pre-Tridentine rites. The Novus Ordo is a modern innovation and is not a liturgical form of worship, at least not on the level of the Divine Liturgy and the Tridentine/Pre-Tridentine masses. It's at some odd place between the Tridentine and the Protestant services.
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« Reply #83 on: August 15, 2011, 01:09:04 PM »

I recently attended a low mass. I rather liked it. And no, i didn't ask for any Orthodox priest's "blessing" to do so.
Ok?  Huh Did anyone ask if you did?

In Christ,
Andrew
No, true. but it cracks me up to read " with my Spiritual Father's blessing" As if he lives in a cave or hermitage.

Apostolic Canons:
Canon X. (XI.)
If any one shall pray, even in a private house, with an excommunicated person, let him also be excommunicated.

Hence why I wanted the permission of my Priest, to make sure I wasn't breaking that Canon.
(may I mention that while in Greece, I met and was friends with an Old Calendarist, who would call me an "ecumenist" for even attending a mass, thus I was a bit hesitant to go)
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« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2011, 01:10:21 PM »

Hmm... I guess it is probably going to be a moot point to you Schultz to bring up that Roman Catholics on another forum have said that my experience with the Mass is actually a normal experience in their church...

Not to mention that my soon-to-be sister-in-law also seems to be somewhat (to say the least) disappointed in the Roman Catholic Church due to this and other factors.

My whole point is not to sit like the Pharisee and say "well I'm glad we aren't THAT bad"... My point is to see where Roman Catholics are coming from, what they experience, and so, when people ask (and they will ask), I can make a proper comparison.

Also, I see that it definitely would have to be a condition for reunion for Rome to completely return to the Tridentine (or even Pre-Tridentine) Mass, and completely abandon the Novus Ordo.

1.  To get a proper idea where RC's are coming from, you would, I think, need far greater exposure to many, many more Masses of the various rites, as well as a thorough understanding of the Mass itself, both N.O., Tridentine, and any others.  If you're sincerely interested, you might want to start by reading this:  http://www.amazon.com/Cardinal-Donald-Wuerl-Mike-AquilinasThe/dp/B0052TEAMS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1313427156&sr=8-5, and maybe this, too: http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Early-Christians-Mike-Aquilina/dp/1592763200/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313427219&sr=1-1.  And....what will you be comparing with what?  

2.  Now, I've not heard *that* before from Orthodox.  What, Catholics wouldn't be allowed to keep their own liturgical rite?

2. Not when it is as atrocious as the Novus Ordo. It has to be the Tridentine, or the any of the Pre-Tridentine rites. The Novus Ordo is a modern innovation and is not a liturgical form of worship, at least not on the level of the Divine Liturgy and the Tridentine/Pre-Tridentine masses. It's at some odd place between the Tridentine and the Protestant services.

And who are you to decide this?  I understand that you have your own personal opinion and preference, but what weight does that carry with the rest of Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2011, 01:15:30 PM »

Hmm... I guess it is probably going to be a moot point to you Schultz to bring up that Roman Catholics on another forum have said that my experience with the Mass is actually a normal experience in their church...

Not to mention that my soon-to-be sister-in-law also seems to be somewhat (to say the least) disappointed in the Roman Catholic Church due to this and other factors.

My whole point is not to sit like the Pharisee and say "well I'm glad we aren't THAT bad"... My point is to see where Roman Catholics are coming from, what they experience, and so, when people ask (and they will ask), I can make a proper comparison.

Also, I see that it definitely would have to be a condition for reunion for Rome to completely return to the Tridentine (or even Pre-Tridentine) Mass, and completely abandon the Novus Ordo.

1.  To get a proper idea where RC's are coming from, you would, I think, need far greater exposure to many, many more Masses of the various rites, as well as a thorough understanding of the Mass itself, both N.O., Tridentine, and any others.  If you're sincerely interested, you might want to start by reading this:  http://www.amazon.com/Cardinal-Donald-Wuerl-Mike-AquilinasThe/dp/B0052TEAMS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1313427156&sr=8-5, and maybe this, too: http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Early-Christians-Mike-Aquilina/dp/1592763200/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313427219&sr=1-1.  And....what will you be comparing with what?  

2.  Now, I've not heard *that* before from Orthodox.  What, Catholics wouldn't be allowed to keep their own liturgical rite?

2. Not when it is as atrocious as the Novus Ordo. It has to be the Tridentine, or the any of the Pre-Tridentine rites. The Novus Ordo is a modern innovation and is not a liturgical form of worship, at least not on the level of the Divine Liturgy and the Tridentine/Pre-Tridentine masses. It's at some odd place between the Tridentine and the Protestant services.

And who are you to decide this?  I understand that you have your own personal opinion and preference, but what weight does that carry with the rest of Orthodoxy?

So what? Just because you read the Gospel/Epistle and perform the sacrament that makes it okay? Worship is far more than that, and it is far more than the Novus Ordo and Protestant services. They have stripped it so bare that it could barely be called "worship" any longer. I'm sorry, but its true.

While I love both of my parents, I don't attend their church at all anymore, or any Protestant service because it is just dead, there is never any substance there. This is the same with the Novus Ordo.

Even my mother realizes this and really longs for the days when she could attend more liturgical, substantive services. (hopefully some day they will come to Orthodoxy)

That is what is wrong with almost all Western Christianity today. The worship is simply the bare bones, it has no substance. If the Roman Catholic Church keeps going in this direction, there is absolutely no chance for unity ever.
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« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2011, 01:20:25 PM »

Hmm... I guess it is probably going to be a moot point to you Schultz to bring up that Roman Catholics on another forum have said that my experience with the Mass is actually a normal experience in their church...

Not to mention that my soon-to-be sister-in-law also seems to be somewhat (to say the least) disappointed in the Roman Catholic Church due to this and other factors.

My whole point is not to sit like the Pharisee and say "well I'm glad we aren't THAT bad"... My point is to see where Roman Catholics are coming from, what they experience, and so, when people ask (and they will ask), I can make a proper comparison.

Also, I see that it definitely would have to be a condition for reunion for Rome to completely return to the Tridentine (or even Pre-Tridentine) Mass, and completely abandon the Novus Ordo.

1.  To get a proper idea where RC's are coming from, you would, I think, need far greater exposure to many, many more Masses of the various rites, as well as a thorough understanding of the Mass itself, both N.O., Tridentine, and any others.  If you're sincerely interested, you might want to start by reading this:  http://www.amazon.com/Cardinal-Donald-Wuerl-Mike-AquilinasThe/dp/B0052TEAMS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1313427156&sr=8-5, and maybe this, too: http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Early-Christians-Mike-Aquilina/dp/1592763200/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313427219&sr=1-1.  And....what will you be comparing with what?  

2.  Now, I've not heard *that* before from Orthodox.  What, Catholics wouldn't be allowed to keep their own liturgical rite?

2. Not when it is as atrocious as the Novus Ordo. It has to be the Tridentine, or the any of the Pre-Tridentine rites. The Novus Ordo is a modern innovation and is not a liturgical form of worship, at least not on the level of the Divine Liturgy and the Tridentine/Pre-Tridentine masses. It's at some odd place between the Tridentine and the Protestant services.

And who are you to decide this?  I understand that you have your own personal opinion and preference, but what weight does that carry with the rest of Orthodoxy?

So what? Just because you read the Gospel/Epistle and perform the sacrament that makes it okay? Worship is far more than that, and it is far more than the Novus Ordo and Protestant services. They have stripped it so bare that it could barely be called "worship" any longer. I'm sorry, but its true.

While I love both of my parents, I don't attend their church at all anymore, or any Protestant service because it is just dead, there is never any substance there. This is the same with the Novus Ordo.

And those of us who were nurtured in the Novus Ordo and had their faith grow until it reached full bloom in Holy Orthodoxy can say the same to you: "So what?!"  As J Michael pointed out, who are you to decide any of this? 

I'm actually surprised you didn't like the NO because it doesn't use all those big words that you once claimed held Orthodoxy back from evangelizing Americans.
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« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2011, 01:23:36 PM »

Hmm... I guess it is probably going to be a moot point to you Schultz to bring up that Roman Catholics on another forum have said that my experience with the Mass is actually a normal experience in their church...

Not to mention that my soon-to-be sister-in-law also seems to be somewhat (to say the least) disappointed in the Roman Catholic Church due to this and other factors.

My whole point is not to sit like the Pharisee and say "well I'm glad we aren't THAT bad"... My point is to see where Roman Catholics are coming from, what they experience, and so, when people ask (and they will ask), I can make a proper comparison.

Also, I see that it definitely would have to be a condition for reunion for Rome to completely return to the Tridentine (or even Pre-Tridentine) Mass, and completely abandon the Novus Ordo.

1.  To get a proper idea where RC's are coming from, you would, I think, need far greater exposure to many, many more Masses of the various rites, as well as a thorough understanding of the Mass itself, both N.O., Tridentine, and any others.  If you're sincerely interested, you might want to start by reading this:  http://www.amazon.com/Cardinal-Donald-Wuerl-Mike-AquilinasThe/dp/B0052TEAMS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1313427156&sr=8-5, and maybe this, too: http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Early-Christians-Mike-Aquilina/dp/1592763200/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313427219&sr=1-1.  And....what will you be comparing with what?  

2.  Now, I've not heard *that* before from Orthodox.  What, Catholics wouldn't be allowed to keep their own liturgical rite?

2. Not when it is as atrocious as the Novus Ordo. It has to be the Tridentine, or the any of the Pre-Tridentine rites. The Novus Ordo is a modern innovation and is not a liturgical form of worship, at least not on the level of the Divine Liturgy and the Tridentine/Pre-Tridentine masses. It's at some odd place between the Tridentine and the Protestant services.

And who are you to decide this?  I understand that you have your own personal opinion and preference, but what weight does that carry with the rest of Orthodoxy?

So what? Just because you read the Gospel/Epistle and perform the sacrament that makes it okay? Worship is far more than that, and it is far more than the Novus Ordo and Protestant services. They have stripped it so bare that it could barely be called "worship" any longer. I'm sorry, but its true.

While I love both of my parents, I don't attend their church at all anymore, or any Protestant service because it is just dead, there is never any substance there. This is the same with the Novus Ordo.

And those of us who were nurtured in the Novus Ordo and had their faith grow until it reached full bloom in Holy Orthodoxy can say the same to you: "So what?!"  As J Michael pointed out, who are you to decide any of this? 

I'm actually surprised you didn't like the NO because it doesn't use all those big words that you once claimed held Orthodoxy back from evangelizing Americans.

I never called for a removal of those "big words", just that they should be translated into modern english, so that we can avoid the disaster that Greece and Russia is in right now with Old Church Slavonic and Koine Greek.

There is a vast difference between the Novus Ordo and what I talked about with modern english. The Novus Ordo clearly cut out a lot of parts of the Tridentine Mass and stripped it to its bare bones. There is a huge difference between that and a translation to a commonly spoken and read language.
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« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2011, 01:30:52 PM »

Hmm... I guess it is probably going to be a moot point to you Schultz to bring up that Roman Catholics on another forum have said that my experience with the Mass is actually a normal experience in their church...

Not to mention that my soon-to-be sister-in-law also seems to be somewhat (to say the least) disappointed in the Roman Catholic Church due to this and other factors.

My whole point is not to sit like the Pharisee and say "well I'm glad we aren't THAT bad"... My point is to see where Roman Catholics are coming from, what they experience, and so, when people ask (and they will ask), I can make a proper comparison.

Also, I see that it definitely would have to be a condition for reunion for Rome to completely return to the Tridentine (or even Pre-Tridentine) Mass, and completely abandon the Novus Ordo.

1.  To get a proper idea where RC's are coming from, you would, I think, need far greater exposure to many, many more Masses of the various rites, as well as a thorough understanding of the Mass itself, both N.O., Tridentine, and any others.  If you're sincerely interested, you might want to start by reading this:  http://www.amazon.com/Cardinal-Donald-Wuerl-Mike-AquilinasThe/dp/B0052TEAMS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1313427156&sr=8-5, and maybe this, too: http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Early-Christians-Mike-Aquilina/dp/1592763200/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313427219&sr=1-1.  And....what will you be comparing with what?  

2.  Now, I've not heard *that* before from Orthodox.  What, Catholics wouldn't be allowed to keep their own liturgical rite?

2. Not when it is as atrocious as the Novus Ordo. It has to be the Tridentine, or the any of the Pre-Tridentine rites. The Novus Ordo is a modern innovation and is not a liturgical form of worship, at least not on the level of the Divine Liturgy and the Tridentine/Pre-Tridentine masses. It's at some odd place between the Tridentine and the Protestant services.

And who are you to decide this?  I understand that you have your own personal opinion and preference, but what weight does that carry with the rest of Orthodoxy?

So what? Just because you read the Gospel/Epistle and perform the sacrament that makes it okay? Worship is far more than that, and it is far more than the Novus Ordo and Protestant services. They have stripped it so bare that it could barely be called "worship" any longer. I'm sorry, but its true.

While I love both of my parents, I don't attend their church at all anymore, or any Protestant service because it is just dead, there is never any substance there. This is the same with the Novus Ordo.

Quite obviously you do *not* understand the N.O. Mass, nor do you understand or appreciate the very deep reverence which many, many Catholics, not just in the U.S., but worldwide,  experience in their worship of Our Lord during that Mass.  Before you exercise your critical faculties about something, don't you think you should understand it more thoroughly than you do the N. O. Mass?

And, again...who are *you* to decide which rites will be acceptable to Orthodoxy as a precondition for re-union?
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« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2011, 01:31:08 PM »

Hmm... I guess it is probably going to be a moot point to you Schultz to bring up that Roman Catholics on another forum have said that my experience with the Mass is actually a normal experience in their church...

Not to mention that my soon-to-be sister-in-law also seems to be somewhat (to say the least) disappointed in the Roman Catholic Church due to this and other factors.

My whole point is not to sit like the Pharisee and say "well I'm glad we aren't THAT bad"... My point is to see where Roman Catholics are coming from, what they experience, and so, when people ask (and they will ask), I can make a proper comparison.

Also, I see that it definitely would have to be a condition for reunion for Rome to completely return to the Tridentine (or even Pre-Tridentine) Mass, and completely abandon the Novus Ordo.

1.  To get a proper idea where RC's are coming from, you would, I think, need far greater exposure to many, many more Masses of the various rites, as well as a thorough understanding of the Mass itself, both N.O., Tridentine, and any others.  If you're sincerely interested, you might want to start by reading this:  http://www.amazon.com/Cardinal-Donald-Wuerl-Mike-AquilinasThe/dp/B0052TEAMS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1313427156&sr=8-5, and maybe this, too: http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Early-Christians-Mike-Aquilina/dp/1592763200/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313427219&sr=1-1.  And....what will you be comparing with what?  

2.  Now, I've not heard *that* before from Orthodox.  What, Catholics wouldn't be allowed to keep their own liturgical rite?

2. Not when it is as atrocious as the Novus Ordo. It has to be the Tridentine, or the any of the Pre-Tridentine rites. The Novus Ordo is a modern innovation and is not a liturgical form of worship, at least not on the level of the Divine Liturgy and the Tridentine/Pre-Tridentine masses. It's at some odd place between the Tridentine and the Protestant services.

And who are you to decide this?  I understand that you have your own personal opinion and preference, but what weight does that carry with the rest of Orthodoxy?

So what? Just because you read the Gospel/Epistle and perform the sacrament that makes it okay? Worship is far more than that, and it is far more than the Novus Ordo and Protestant services. They have stripped it so bare that it could barely be called "worship" any longer. I'm sorry, but its true.

While I love both of my parents, I don't attend their church at all anymore, or any Protestant service because it is just dead, there is never any substance there. This is the same with the Novus Ordo.

And those of us who were nurtured in the Novus Ordo and had their faith grow until it reached full bloom in Holy Orthodoxy can say the same to you: "So what?!"  As J Michael pointed out, who are you to decide any of this? 

I'm actually surprised you didn't like the NO because it doesn't use all those big words that you once claimed held Orthodoxy back from evangelizing Americans.

I never called for a removal of those "big words", just that they should be translated into modern english, so that we can avoid the disaster that Greece and Russia is in right now with Old Church Slavonic and Koine Greek.

There is a vast difference between the Novus Ordo and what I talked about with modern english. The Novus Ordo clearly cut out a lot of parts of the Tridentine Mass and stripped it to its bare bones. There is a huge difference between that and a translation to a commonly spoken and read language.

Uh huh.  Your linguistic methodology is part of the reason the NO in English can be a poor experience even when it is celebrated as reverently as possible.  

Again, you've made your point.  You didn't like it based on one bad experience and then hearsay from others who also have bad experiences and have yet to experience a properly celebrated NO Mass because their pastors are the generation that distorted both V2 and the Pauline Missal.  No one denies that these liturgical terrorists will answer for their spiritual crimes.  However, your generalizations whitewash a great number of people whose faith was nurtured by the same liturgy that you denigrate here for no good reason, as Wyatt pointed out.

Congratulations on being a triumphalist.  You fit in well with the rest of 'netodoxy.
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