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Author Topic: Just got back from attending my first (and possibly last) mass...  (Read 16768 times) Average Rating: 1
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ialmisry
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« Reply #270 on: August 17, 2011, 10:53:47 PM »


Why does the Catholic Church need one reform after another? Why can't they return to the Faith of our Fathers?


I think you mean the Church of the Councils:  primarily because the Church of the Fathers was pretty darn messy!!

The Church of the Councils wasn't messy too? Wink
yes, but they cleaned it up.
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« Reply #271 on: August 17, 2011, 11:00:41 PM »

Yes. And give those who attend the Catholic NO, with its pews, its clapping of hands, and its swaying to and fro while singing,  a break also.

No. In the West when those things happen it's because of the intrusion of hippie/kumbaya pseudo-spirituality into the Roman Catholic church, which is not at all native to the people. Can you say the same of Africa? I wouldn't.

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« Reply #272 on: August 17, 2011, 11:02:04 PM »

What do the Coptic Orthodox churches in Africa (that's what the video in Kenya was in post 241, Stanley; not EO) have to do with the RC or the EO?

Furthermore, there have been some complaints about the church in Kenya from Copts elsewhere (that such things as what you've posted are not acceptable within Orthodoxy), though I don't know how widespread they are. The answers I always hear are something like what Cavaradossi has given: In an expression of local culture, dancing is integral in the worship of God. I'm not entirely sure how much I buy that with regard to sub-Saharan Africa in general (particularly when there are examples like this Paschal doxology from South Africa in the local language -- as well as Coptic, Arabic and English -- but without clapping), but at least the Orthodox, both EO and OO, are being consistent in the defense of a solidly Christian principle: The nativization of liturgy. This is something that RC agrees with, is it not?

If it does, then don't criticize the EO or OO. If it doesn't, then the RC is in even bigger trouble than I thought. (I know it does, though.  Smiley)

As an aside: isiXhosa/isiZulu-accented Coptic sounds amazing! Grin

I see now that this is a Coptic Orthodox Church (OO). But the EO have begun to make inroads in Africa. Would they have a completely different liturgy than the OO in Africa?
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« Reply #273 on: August 17, 2011, 11:02:57 PM »

Yes. And give those who attend the Catholic NO, with its pews, its clapping of hands, and its swaying to and fro while singing,  a break also.

No. In the West when those things happen it's because of the intrusion of hippie/kumbaya pseudo-spirituality into the Roman Catholic church, which is not at all native to the people. Can you say the same of Africa? I wouldn't.


It's part of the modern day  western culture.
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« Reply #274 on: August 17, 2011, 11:11:57 PM »

Oh the hell it is. It is part of the largely atheistic/secular-minded baby boomers' mentality that has a stranglehold on your church. None of that garbage even existed before the 1960s. You want to tell me that all of Western Christianity has no deeper roots than 50 years? Bull. (And not the kind with "Papal" before it, either.)

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« Reply #275 on: August 17, 2011, 11:18:24 PM »

I see now that this is a Coptic Orthodox Church (OO). But the EO have begun to make inroads in Africa. Would they have a completely different liturgy than the OO in Africa?

"Begun to make"? They never left! You don't know the Melkites in Egypt, and their Greek Orthodox Church's Patriarchate in Alexandria? Check the links at the bottom of this Wikipedia page. There is quite a lot of missionary work being directed from that historic place.
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« Reply #276 on: August 17, 2011, 11:44:00 PM »

Oh the hell it is. It is part of the largely atheistic/secular-minded baby boomers' mentality that has a stranglehold on your church. None of that garbage even existed before the 1960s. You want to tell me that all of Western Christianity has no deeper roots than 50 years? Bull. (And not the kind with "Papal" before it, either.)


That is western culture today. That's just the way it is.
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« Reply #277 on: August 17, 2011, 11:53:42 PM »

Oh the hell it is. It is part of the largely atheistic/secular-minded baby boomers' mentality that has a stranglehold on your church. None of that garbage even existed before the 1960s. You want to tell me that all of Western Christianity has no deeper roots than 50 years? Bull. (And not the kind with "Papal" before it, either.)


That is western culture today. That's just the way it is.

No. It is western culture gone amuck.

The Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Reformation, Marxism, Communism, and Secular Humanism are all the fruit of Western Civilization as all have their roots in men worshiping the creature and not the Creator. The NO is just part of that ugliness as it was taken from the Reformation and is a daughter of the Lutheran Liturgy of 1904. Go check a 1904 Lutheran Hymnal and you will see the NO almost word for word.
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« Reply #278 on: August 17, 2011, 11:55:20 PM »

I see now that this is a Coptic Orthodox Church (OO). But the EO have begun to make inroads in Africa. Would they have a completely different liturgy than the OO in Africa?

"Begun to make"? They never left! You don't know the Melkites in Egypt, and their Greek Orthodox Church's Patriarchate in Alexandria? Check the links at the bottom of this Wikipedia page. There is quite a lot of missionary work being directed from that historic place.
But the Orthodox mission south of the Sahara desert is fairly recent in contrast to the ancient presence in northern Africa. I was thinking of Orthodoxy in sub-Saharan Africa.
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« Reply #279 on: August 17, 2011, 11:56:28 PM »

Oh the hell it is. It is part of the largely atheistic/secular-minded baby boomers' mentality that has a stranglehold on your church. None of that garbage even existed before the 1960s. You want to tell me that all of Western Christianity has no deeper roots than 50 years? Bull. (And not the kind with "Papal" before it, either.)


That is western culture today. That's just the way it is.

No. It is western culture gone amuck.

The Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Reformation, Marxism, Communism, and Secular Humanism are all the fruit of Western Civilization as all have their roots in men worshiping the creature and not the Creator. The NO is just part of that ugliness as it was taken from the Reformation and is a daughter of the Lutheran Liturgy of 1904. Go check a 1904 Lutheran Hymnal and you will see the NO almost word for word.
These things are still part of western culture.
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« Reply #280 on: August 17, 2011, 11:57:13 PM »

I see now that this is a Coptic Orthodox Church (OO). But the EO have begun to make inroads in Africa. Would they have a completely different liturgy than the OO in Africa?

"Begun to make"? They never left! You don't know the Melkites in Egypt, and their Greek Orthodox Church's Patriarchate in Alexandria? Check the links at the bottom of this Wikipedia page. There is quite a lot of missionary work being directed from that historic place.
But the Orthodox mission south of the Sahara desert is fairly recent in contrast to the ancient presence in northern Africa. I was thinking of Orthodoxy in sub-Saharan Africa.

This should be a new topic for a new thread.
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« Reply #281 on: August 17, 2011, 11:57:30 PM »

No. It is a very specific subset of western culture, not western culture in toto. Would you likewise bow to the homosexual activists and women's ordination-pushers to determine what is appropriate for the liturgy, given that they are today a larger and more vocal faction of society than ever before? Is that "just how it is"? It strikes me as incredibly odd that Catholics would not understand the difference between that which is native to the culture and edifying to the people, and that which is present by means of the shifting morals and standards of society. Or, to be more honest, I would love for it to strike me as odd, but it is typical of the problems that I also encountered as an RC.

When there is no difference between the prevailing (shifting) winds of secular society and the congregation, the church ceases to be a house of God.



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« Reply #282 on: August 17, 2011, 11:58:13 PM »

Oh the hell it is. It is part of the largely atheistic/secular-minded baby boomers' mentality that has a stranglehold on your church. None of that garbage even existed before the 1960s. You want to tell me that all of Western Christianity has no deeper roots than 50 years? Bull. (And not the kind with "Papal" before it, either.)


That is western culture today. That's just the way it is.

No. It is western culture gone amuck.

The Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Reformation, Marxism, Communism, and Secular Humanism are all the fruit of Western Civilization as all have their roots in men worshiping the creature and not the Creator. The NO is just part of that ugliness as it was taken from the Reformation and is a daughter of the Lutheran Liturgy of 1904. Go check a 1904 Lutheran Hymnal and you will see the NO almost word for word.
These things are still part of western culture.

Exactly: the decivilization of the West.
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« Reply #283 on: August 17, 2011, 11:59:49 PM »

No. It is a very specific subset of western culture, not western culture in toto. Would you likewise bow to the homosexual activists and women's ordination-pushers to determine what is appropriate for the liturgy, given that they are today a larger and more vocal faction of society than ever before? Is that "just how it is"? It strikes me as incredibly odd that Catholics would not understand the difference between that which is native to the culture and edifying to the people, and that which is present by means of the shifting morals and standards of society. Or, to be more honest, I would love for it to strike me as odd, but it is typical of the problems that I also encountered as an RC.

When there is no difference between the prevailing (shifting) winds of secular society and the congregation, the church ceases to be a house of God.



Exactly as men worship man and not the Creator.
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« Reply #284 on: August 17, 2011, 11:59:59 PM »

No. It is a very specific subset of western culture, not western culture in toto. Would you likewise bow to the homosexual activists and women's ordination-pushers to determine what is appropriate for the liturgy, given that they are today a larger and more vocal faction of society than ever before? Is that "just how it is"? It strikes me as incredibly odd that Catholics would not understand the difference between that which is native to the culture and edifying to the people, and that which is present by means of the shifting morals and standards of society. Or, to be more honest, I would love for it to strike me as odd, but it is typical of the problems that I also encountered as an RC.

When there is no difference between the prevailing (shifting) winds of secular society and the congregation, the church ceases to be a house of God.




sub-Saharan Africa is a very specific part of African culture.
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« Reply #285 on: August 18, 2011, 12:05:38 AM »

Indeed it is. From what I have seen, there is some variance between even the practices in, say, Zambia and Kenya. One of the Zambian Coptic videos I saw featured a Latin hymn!  Shocked

What's your point?
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« Reply #286 on: August 18, 2011, 12:08:43 AM »

Exactly: the decivilization of the West.
The point is that I read somewhere that there have been similar EO services in sub-Saharan Kenyan Africa. Why are these clapping, charismatic singing, swaying to and fro during religious services OK for OO and EO but not for RC? Why would it be decivilisation for RC but not for OO or EO ?
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« Reply #287 on: August 18, 2011, 12:58:21 AM »

Exactly: the decivilization of the West.
The point is that I read somewhere that there have been similar EO services in sub-Saharan Kenyan Africa. Why are these clapping, charismatic singing, swaying to and fro during religious services OK for OO and EO but not for RC? Why would it be decivilisation for RC but not for OO or EO ?

I can just see the results:

Breaking news: A new African American Orthodox Christian parish under Bishop Joseph of the Antiochians has been established in Los Angeles featuring Charismatic hand clapping, bongo beating, swaying hymns sung in the Byzantine Orthodox tradition.

j/k
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« Reply #288 on: August 18, 2011, 01:18:17 AM »

Exactly: the decivilization of the West.
The point is that I read somewhere that there have been similar EO services in sub-Saharan Kenyan Africa. Why are these clapping, charismatic singing, swaying to and fro during religious services OK for OO and EO but not for RC? Why would it be decivilisation for RC but not for OO or EO ?

I can just see the results:

Breaking news: A new African American Orthodox Christian parish under Bishop Joseph of the Antiochians has been established in Los Angeles featuring Charismatic hand clapping, bongo beating, swaying hymns sung in the Byzantine Orthodox tradition.

j/k
Here's another reverent Orthodox (OO)service:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLEzswDbDjw&NR=1
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« Reply #289 on: August 18, 2011, 01:34:58 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).
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« Reply #290 on: August 18, 2011, 01:38:41 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).

So it is part of a religious service or not?
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« Reply #291 on: August 18, 2011, 01:57:10 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).


And Stanley, in that YouTube video you presented, the Pascha Divine Liturgy had just concluded in the African Byzantine Orthodox Christian Church.

The people and priest were singing Christ is Risen using the same popular American hymn (sing in Russian and Antiochian Orthodox Churches) as the people were processing up to greet the Priest, to receive his blessing and some antidoron. Yes, they were swaying to the beat of the music, but they were truly joyful in celebrating the Great and Holy Feast of Pascha, the Lord's Resurrection.

Personally, I would much rather that people sing as they go up to greet the priest after the Divine Liturgy than gossip and engage in small talk in the Temple of God.
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« Reply #292 on: August 18, 2011, 02:00:54 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).

So it is part of a religious service or not?

No, it is not. The service has ended, and the people are celebrating the afterglow.
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« Reply #293 on: August 18, 2011, 02:08:17 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).

So it is part of a religious service or not?

No, it is not. The service has ended, and the people are celebrating the afterglow.
So when people celebrate in an Orthodox  Church it does not qualify in any sense of the word as a religious service? So was it  a secular praise to God service in an Orthodox Church ?
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« Reply #294 on: August 18, 2011, 02:10:36 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).


And Stanley, in that YouTube video you presented, the Pascha Divine Liturgy had just concluded in the African Byzantine Orthodox Christian Church.

The people and priest were singing Christ is Risen using the same popular American hymn (sing in Russian and Antiochian Orthodox Churches) as the people were processing up to greet the Priest, to receive his blessing and some antidoron. Yes, they were swaying to the beat of the music, but they were truly joyful in celebrating the Great and Holy Feast of Pascha, the Lord's Resurrection.

Personally, I would much rather that people sing as they go up to greet the priest after the Divine Liturgy than gossip and engage in small talk in the Temple of God.
Right. So it boils down to your opinion that it is OK to dance and sway to and fro  joyful music, and to clap your hands in a Charismatic fashion in the OO or in the EO Church, but not in the RC Church?
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« Reply #295 on: August 18, 2011, 02:21:44 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).


And Stanley, in that YouTube video you presented, the Pascha Divine Liturgy had just concluded in the African Byzantine Orthodox Christian Church.

The people and priest were singing Christ is Risen using the same popular American hymn (sing in Russian and Antiochian Orthodox Churches) as the people were processing up to greet the Priest, to receive his blessing and some antidoron. Yes, they were swaying to the beat of the music, but they were truly joyful in celebrating the Great and Holy Feast of Pascha, the Lord's Resurrection.

Personally, I would much rather that people sing as they go up to greet the priest after the Divine Liturgy than gossip and engage in small talk in the Temple of God.
Right. So it boils down to your opinion that it is OK to dance and sway to and fro  joyful music, and to clap your hands in a Charismatic fashion in the OO or in the EO Church, but not in the RC Church?

No, I did not say that at all. Stop reading into my post.

Here in the USA, in the Orthodox Church, we do not use drums, guitars, and clapping. Only the human voice.
True, some of the Greek Orthodox Churches use an organ, but normally, we sing without any accompaniment.

However, the African culture has always had clapping to the beating of bongo drums.
This has probably been their tradition for thousands of years since the beginning of Christianity.

Respectful singing without drums and clapping used to be the norm in the American pre-Vatican II Catholic Church, but in Africa, things were always different. When I was a Catholic, it was not until sometime in the 1970s that clapping, bongo drums, and guitars were introduced.
Before that time, like the Greeks, Catholics only allowed organs. Convents and monasteries often did not usually have organs, but used Gregorian chant without any accompaniment. The quietness and reverence of Gregorian chant was angelic.

Liturgical dance at Novus Ordo Masses is a post-Vatican II innovation/abuse. I do not think that it is allowed by the Vatican.

NOTE AGAIN. The swaying to the music in the African Byzantine Church in the Pascha YouTube occurred AFTER the conclusion of the Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #296 on: August 18, 2011, 02:28:40 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).

So it is part of a religious service or not?

No, it is not. The service has ended, and the people are celebrating the afterglow.
So when people celebrate in an Orthodox  Church it does not qualify in any sense of the word as a religious service? So was it  a secular praise to God service in an Orthodox Church ?

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

So .... So .... So

The Liturgy/Mass has ended. People can continue to rejoice and pray, but there is no OFFICIAL religious service going on.
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« Reply #297 on: August 18, 2011, 02:32:20 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).


And Stanley, in that YouTube video you presented, the Pascha Divine Liturgy had just concluded in the African Byzantine Orthodox Christian Church.

The people and priest were singing Christ is Risen using the same popular American hymn (sing in Russian and Antiochian Orthodox Churches) as the people were processing up to greet the Priest, to receive his blessing and some antidoron. Yes, they were swaying to the beat of the music, but they were truly joyful in celebrating the Great and Holy Feast of Pascha, the Lord's Resurrection.

Personally, I would much rather that people sing as they go up to greet the priest after the Divine Liturgy than gossip and engage in small talk in the Temple of God.
Right. So it boils down to your opinion that it is OK to dance and sway to and fro  joyful music, and to clap your hands in a Charismatic fashion in the OO or in the EO Church, but not in the RC Church?

Honestly, I doubt most Eastern Orthodox Christians care what you do in a Roman Catholic Church. If clown and puppet masses bring you closer to God, then more power to you.
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« Reply #298 on: August 18, 2011, 02:37:12 AM »

Is it really hard to grasp that what might be acceptable for Africans is not acceptable for non-Africans? I do not think this is actually a difficult concept. It seems that some people want to argue that "these people get to do it, so why can't we?" You can't because you're not those people. Duh.

If you are a native Kenyan Orthodox, you do as the Kenyan Orthodox do (unless you are visiting some other Orthodox church or monastery, in which case you do as they do). If you are a Coptic Orthodox, you do as the Coptic Orthodox do. If you are a French Orthodox, you do as the French Orthodox do. It's the simplest concept ever.
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« Reply #299 on: August 18, 2011, 02:44:12 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).


And Stanley, in that YouTube video you presented, the Pascha Divine Liturgy had just concluded in the African Byzantine Orthodox Christian Church.

The people and priest were singing Christ is Risen using the same popular American hymn (sing in Russian and Antiochian Orthodox Churches) as the people were processing up to greet the Priest, to receive his blessing and some antidoron. Yes, they were swaying to the beat of the music, but they were truly joyful in celebrating the Great and Holy Feast of Pascha, the Lord's Resurrection.

Personally, I would much rather that people sing as they go up to greet the priest after the Divine Liturgy than gossip and engage in small talk in the Temple of God.
Right. So it boils down to your opinion that it is OK to dance and sway to and fro  joyful music, and to clap your hands in a Charismatic fashion in the OO or in the EO Church, but not in the RC Church?

Honestly, I doubt most Eastern Orthodox Christians care what you do in a Roman Catholic Church.
Oh. Please tell me then what is the point of this thread?
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« Reply #300 on: August 18, 2011, 02:50:35 AM »

Is it really hard to grasp that what might be acceptable for Africans is not acceptable for non-Africans? I do not think this is actually a difficult concept. It seems that some people want to argue that "these people get to do it, so why can't we?" You can't because you're not those people. Duh.

If you are a native Kenyan Orthodox, you do as the Kenyan Orthodox do (unless you are visiting some other Orthodox church or monastery, in which case you do as they do). If you are a Coptic Orthodox, you do as the Coptic Orthodox do. If you are a French Orthodox, you do as the French Orthodox do. It's the simplest concept ever.
Everyone knows that the USA Catholic Church contains many wonderful observant Black African American Catholics. I don't see why anyone would be opposed to incorporating some of their beautiful, joyful and uplifting culture into mainstream American Catholic worship. Is your position that this type of joyful, charismatic expression is acceptable in an Orthodox Church (either OO or EO) but not in a Roman Catholic Church. To me, that makes no sense at all. 
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« Reply #301 on: August 18, 2011, 02:56:58 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).


And Stanley, in that YouTube video you presented, the Pascha Divine Liturgy had just concluded in the African Byzantine Orthodox Christian Church.

The people and priest were singing Christ is Risen using the same popular American hymn (sing in Russian and Antiochian Orthodox Churches) as the people were processing up to greet the Priest, to receive his blessing and some antidoron. Yes, they were swaying to the beat of the music, but they were truly joyful in celebrating the Great and Holy Feast of Pascha, the Lord's Resurrection.

Personally, I would much rather that people sing as they go up to greet the priest after the Divine Liturgy than gossip and engage in small talk in the Temple of God.
Right. So it boils down to your opinion that it is OK to dance and sway to and fro  joyful music, and to clap your hands in a Charismatic fashion in the OO or in the EO Church, but not in the RC Church?

Honestly, I doubt most Eastern Orthodox Christians care what you do in a Roman Catholic Church.
Oh. Please tell me then what is the point of this thread?

How should I know? Ask Devin. I wasn't exactly in here bashing the RCC, if you haven't noticed.
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« Reply #302 on: August 18, 2011, 02:59:41 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).


And Stanley, in that YouTube video you presented, the Pascha Divine Liturgy had just concluded in the African Byzantine Orthodox Christian Church.

The people and priest were singing Christ is Risen using the same popular American hymn (sing in Russian and Antiochian Orthodox Churches) as the people were processing up to greet the Priest, to receive his blessing and some antidoron. Yes, they were swaying to the beat of the music, but they were truly joyful in celebrating the Great and Holy Feast of Pascha, the Lord's Resurrection.

Personally, I would much rather that people sing as they go up to greet the priest after the Divine Liturgy than gossip and engage in small talk in the Temple of God.
Right. So it boils down to your opinion that it is OK to dance and sway to and fro  joyful music, and to clap your hands in a Charismatic fashion in the OO or in the EO Church, but not in the RC Church?

Honestly, I doubt most Eastern Orthodox Christians care what you do in a Roman Catholic Church.
Oh. Please tell me then what is the point of this thread?

How should I know? Ask Devin. I wasn't exactly in here bashing the RCC, if you haven't noticed.
I didn't say that you were. I am only saying that what you said was contradicted in a fashion by the OP.
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« Reply #303 on: August 18, 2011, 03:02:28 AM »

Sometimes it helps to read the comments of the uploader, Stanley: "This is a time of praise following the conclusion of the Traditional Coptic Liturgy." (emphasis mine)

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is a strict division between the hymns that are appropriate for the liturgy and those that are not. The latter can include a bit of everything, so long as the message is theologically acceptable (as you can see if you search for "Coptic taraneem" on Youtube...pianos, guitars, drums, oh my!).


And Stanley, in that YouTube video you presented, the Pascha Divine Liturgy had just concluded in the African Byzantine Orthodox Christian Church.

The people and priest were singing Christ is Risen using the same popular American hymn (sing in Russian and Antiochian Orthodox Churches) as the people were processing up to greet the Priest, to receive his blessing and some antidoron. Yes, they were swaying to the beat of the music, but they were truly joyful in celebrating the Great and Holy Feast of Pascha, the Lord's Resurrection.

Personally, I would much rather that people sing as they go up to greet the priest after the Divine Liturgy than gossip and engage in small talk in the Temple of God.
Right. So it boils down to your opinion that it is OK to dance and sway to and fro  joyful music, and to clap your hands in a Charismatic fashion in the OO or in the EO Church, but not in the RC Church?

Honestly, I doubt most Eastern Orthodox Christians care what you do in a Roman Catholic Church.
Oh. Please tell me then what is the point of this thread?

How should I know? Ask Devin. I wasn't exactly in here bashing the RCC, if you haven't noticed.
I didn't say that you were. I am only saying that what you said was contradicted in a fashion by the OP.

So you're willing to generalize that because Devin cares so much about liturgical abuse in the RCC that Orthodox Christians in general care too? Like I said, many don't care. A lot of them, being cradle Orthodox, have probably never even been to a mass.
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« Reply #304 on: August 18, 2011, 03:10:20 AM »

Everyone knows that the USA Catholic Church contains many wonderful observant Black African American Catholics. I don't see why anyone would be opposed to incorporating some of their beautiful, joyful and uplifting culture into mainstream American Catholic worship. Is your position that this type of joyful, charismatic expression is acceptable in an Orthodox Church (either OO or EO) but not in a Roman Catholic Church. To me, that makes no sense at all. 

Wow. That was...interestingly phrased. I guess there are black Catholics, and then there are mainstream Catholics. Hmm.

I will tell it to you like this: When I was in college, and still Roman Catholic, one of my favorite people in the world was the university's Swahili professor, a very exuberant Catholic from Tanzania. I would see him at mass every Sunday, with a giant smile on his face, giving the responses enthusiastically in his heavily accented English. This was in Oregon, where mass was the only place you were practically guaranteed to see and interact with black people.  Smiley There were other Africans present every Sunday from Cameroon and Togo. Here's the thing, though: They never, ever, ever tried to incorporate the worship that is native to their home churches into the church in Oregon. It would probably have been welcome (Oregon being full of hyper-inclusive hippies, you see), but they knew it was not an appropriate setting for such things.

Furthermore, in my home area of Northern California the local Ethiopians and Eritreans mostly go the OCA, as there is no Oriental Orthodox church for miles and miles. I have attended the OCA and seen them there, and they sing the Byzantine hymns along with the rest of the congregation, not their own hymns. This is because, of course, Ethiopian hymns are not appropriate there.
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« Reply #305 on: August 18, 2011, 04:04:45 AM »

Coming from the Orthodox perspective, she most certainly isn't a cantor... lol

All I know is they are hymns that apparently weren't structured in. (that is, unlike hymns in Orthodox worship)
I was a Roman Catholic for 17 years prior to becoming Eastern Catholic in 2005, and basically during my Roman Catholic years I would have called the girl you described a music leader, i.e., I would have said that she leads the "music ministry" in the parish, which involves singing rather Protestant sounding songs as "breaks" during the mass.  Cheesy

I know that that sounds funny to call the hymns "breaks," but that is often what they appear to be, i.e., musical breaks, or interludes, during the actual worship service.

Finally, I agree with your overall assessment of the manner of celebration, because in a lot of Catholic Churches the style of the service is quasi-Protestant.  At least that is true when talking about the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite as it is celebrated throughout most of the Oakland Diocese here in California, and it is a fair assessment of the situation in several other diocese that I have visited over the years throughout the United States.

P.S. - Hope springs eternal that the new translation of the Roman Missal (Ordinary Form), which becomes normative in Advent of this year, will lead to a greater degree of reverence during worship in Roman Catholic parishes.  But alas if insipid music remains the norm the new translation will sadly be blunted in its effectiveness.
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« Reply #306 on: August 18, 2011, 04:35:20 AM »

So what basically happened is that to OP attended one of the worst possible examples of a Roman Catholic Mass and then judged an entire church's liturgical practices based on this bad egg.

Yep, that sounds about right.

Shultz, that sort of RC Mass has been common for close to 25 years. I grew up Catholic experiencing that sort of Mass. Guitar Masses were the rage when I was in college (late 80s/early 90s - I'm 42, to give you an idea of time frame). Many, many RCs from my generation left the RCC and haven't gone back. Our Catholic religious education meant essentially that we received no religious ed. I went to Catholic high school from 8th grade through high school graduation. One year in high school, our daily religious ed class was "peace and justice." The RCC was obviously more concerned about apartheid in South Africa than teaching us anything about the faith.
I agree that the description of the mass given by the original poster is normative, at least based upon my experience of attending Roman Catholic parishes in 8 different states over a period of 17 years (and normally more than once a week during that time - beginning in 1987).  Moreover, as an Eastern Catholic I still attend Roman Catholic parishes about twice a month (on Sundays that I cannot get to an Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Church), and the masses are as banal as ever (some worse than they were in the 80s and 90s, and some slightly better).  Hopefully, as I said in my previous post, the new translation of the third edition of the Roman Missal will help to bring back a sense of the sacred in many Roman Catholic parishes, but I remain skeptical because of the insipid music that is used in the vast majority of local Roman Catholic Churches.
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« Reply #307 on: August 18, 2011, 09:55:11 AM »

Right. So it boils down to your opinion that it is OK to dance and sway to and fro  joyful music, and to clap your hands in a Charismatic fashion in the OO or in the EO Church, but not in the RC Church?

I sometimes sway to the rhythm of the Byzantine Chant, but only if (a) I'm in the choir loft where no one can see me and/or (b) my sciatica's acting up.  Wink
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« Reply #308 on: August 18, 2011, 10:06:47 AM »

Right. So it boils down to your opinion that it is OK to dance and sway to and fro  joyful music, and to clap your hands in a Charismatic fashion in the OO or in the EO Church, but not in the RC Church?

I sometimes sway to the rhythm of the Byzantine Chant, but only if (a) I'm in the choir loft where no one can see me and/or (b) my sciatica's acting up.  Wink

From RSV:

Psalm 47--
  • To the choirmaster. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah.
  • [1]
Clap your hands, all peoples!
Shout to God with loud songs of joy!

[2] For the LORD, the Most High, is terrible,
a great king over all the earth.
[3] He subdued peoples under us,
and nations under our feet.
[4] He chose our heritage for us,
the pride of Jacob whom he loves. [Selah]
[5] God has gone up with a shout,
the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.
[6] Sing praises to God, sing praises!
Sing praises to our King, sing praises!
[7] For God is the king of all the earth;
sing praises with a psalm!

[8] God reigns over the nations;
God sits on his holy throne.
[9] The princes of the peoples gather
as the people of the God of Abraham.
For the shields of the earth belong to God;
he is highly exalted!


Whenever I heard/recited this in the Eastern Catholic, Orthodox, and for that matter, Roman Catholic Church, I always wondered why it always sounded like a dirge more than a song of joy.  Hmmm.....
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« Reply #309 on: August 18, 2011, 10:23:38 AM »

Right. So it boils down to your opinion that it is OK to dance and sway to and fro  joyful music, and to clap your hands in a Charismatic fashion in the OO or in the EO Church, but not in the RC Church?

I sometimes sway to the rhythm of the Byzantine Chant, but only if (a) I'm in the choir loft where no one can see me and/or (b) my sciatica's acting up.  Wink

From RSV:

Psalm 47--
  • To the choirmaster. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah.
  • [1]
Clap your hands, all peoples!
Shout to God with loud songs of joy!

[2] For the LORD, the Most High, is terrible,
a great king over all the earth.
[3] He subdued peoples under us,
and nations under our feet.
[4] He chose our heritage for us,
the pride of Jacob whom he loves. [Selah]
[5] God has gone up with a shout,
the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.
[6] Sing praises to God, sing praises!
Sing praises to our King, sing praises!
[7] For God is the king of all the earth;
sing praises with a psalm!

[8] God reigns over the nations;
God sits on his holy throne.
[9] The princes of the peoples gather
as the people of the God of Abraham.
For the shields of the earth belong to God;
he is highly exalted!


Whenever I heard/recited this in the Eastern Catholic, Orthodox, and for that matter, Roman Catholic Church, I always wondered why it always sounded like a dirge more than a song of joy.  Hmmm.....

Indeed!!...unless of course you were in the midst of Carmelites and then you would hear the song chanted in such a way that your soul would be uplifted and not burdened.   angel
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« Reply #310 on: August 18, 2011, 10:33:08 AM »

Right. So it boils down to your opinion that it is OK to dance and sway to and fro  joyful music, and to clap your hands in a Charismatic fashion in the OO or in the EO Church, but not in the RC Church?

I sometimes sway to the rhythm of the Byzantine Chant, but only if (a) I'm in the choir loft where no one can see me and/or (b) my sciatica's acting up.  Wink

From RSV:

Psalm 47--
  • To the choirmaster. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah.
  • [1]
Clap your hands, all peoples!
Shout to God with loud songs of joy!

[2] For the LORD, the Most High, is terrible,
a great king over all the earth.
[3] He subdued peoples under us,
and nations under our feet.
[4] He chose our heritage for us,
the pride of Jacob whom he loves. [Selah]
[5] God has gone up with a shout,
the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.
[6] Sing praises to God, sing praises!
Sing praises to our King, sing praises!
[7] For God is the king of all the earth;
sing praises with a psalm!

[8] God reigns over the nations;
God sits on his holy throne.
[9] The princes of the peoples gather
as the people of the God of Abraham.
For the shields of the earth belong to God;
he is highly exalted!


Whenever I heard/recited this in the Eastern Catholic, Orthodox, and for that matter, Roman Catholic Church, I always wondered why it always sounded like a dirge more than a song of joy.  Hmmm.....

Indeed!!...unless of course you were in the midst of Carmelites and then you would hear the song chanted in such a way that your soul would be uplifted and not burdened.   angel

Would that there were some near us!

The RC church we are now part of sings the "Gloria" in a way that, at first, offended my "Eastern" sensibilities.  Then it dawned on me that people were actually singing it with *joy* and to the *glory* of God, unlike how I've heard it elsewhere.  It would probably, however, make the toes of some on this board curl  Wink.  Oh well....
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« Reply #311 on: August 18, 2011, 10:38:04 AM »


Indeed!!...unless of course you were in the midst of Carmelites and then you would hear the song chanted in such a way that your soul would be uplifted and not burdened.   angel


Would that there were some near us!

The RC church we are now part of sings the "Gloria" in a way that, at first, offended my "Eastern" sensibilities.  Then it dawned on me that people were actually singing it with *joy* and to the *glory* of God, unlike how I've heard it elsewhere.  It would probably, however, make the toes of some on this board curl  Wink.  Oh well....

Some folks need Somber Prayer to feel holy and most of us would rather feel holy than be holy.

So you pick your way among the weeds and flowers and pray for rain in any event  Wink
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« Reply #312 on: August 18, 2011, 10:56:43 AM »


Indeed!!...unless of course you were in the midst of Carmelites and then you would hear the song chanted in such a way that your soul would be uplifted and not burdened.   angel


Would that there were some near us!

The RC church we are now part of sings the "Gloria" in a way that, at first, offended my "Eastern" sensibilities.  Then it dawned on me that people were actually singing it with *joy* and to the *glory* of God, unlike how I've heard it elsewhere.  It would probably, however, make the toes of some on this board curl  Wink.  Oh well....

Some folks need Somber Prayer to feel holy and most of us would rather feel holy than be holy.

So you pick your way among the weeds and flowers and pray for rain in any event  Wink

I'm a'pickin' and a'grinnin', and a'prayin', all the weeds not withstanding!  Grin 

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« Reply #313 on: August 18, 2011, 11:56:14 AM »

I see now that this is a Coptic Orthodox Church (OO). But the EO have begun to make inroads in Africa. Would they have a completely different liturgy than the OO in Africa?

"Begun to make"? They never left! You don't know the Melkites in Egypt, and their Greek Orthodox Church's Patriarchate in Alexandria? Check the links at the bottom of this Wikipedia page. There is quite a lot of missionary work being directed from that historic place.
But the Orthodox mission south of the Sahara desert is fairly recent in contrast to the ancient presence in northern Africa. I was thinking of Orthodoxy in sub-Saharan Africa.
The Orthodox have been involved in the Horn since Antiquity, and it is in Sub-Saharan Africa.

The Westerners didn't begin to reach there until 1418, not settling in ernest with missionaries until two centuries later.
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« Reply #314 on: August 18, 2011, 12:22:29 PM »

What exactly is that map showing, Isa? "250 BC" is throwing me...leave it to the Orthodox to get there BEFORE Christ...  Cheesy
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