OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 31, 2014, 12:40:15 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Just got back from attending my first (and possibly last) mass...  (Read 17133 times) Average Rating: 1
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,992


When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #180 on: August 16, 2011, 03:50:48 AM »

I recently attended a low mass. I rather liked it. And no, i didn't ask for any Orthodox priest's "blessing" to do so.
Ok?  Huh Did anyone ask if you did?

In Christ,
Andrew
No, true. but it cracks me up to read " with my Spiritual Father's blessing" As if he lives in a cave or hermitage.
Why do you always have to come in and ruin our Orthodox spiritual LARP, Augustin?
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #181 on: August 16, 2011, 10:08:59 AM »

So out of curiosity, how should the Orthodox understand the NO mass in the context of a hopeful reunification (several thousand years in the making Tongue)? The liturgical abuses notwithstanding, how are we to understand a properly performed NO mass from a liturgical standpoint? Is there anything which would be considered truly deficient?

I'm not really sure I can answer that for you.  As I said to the OP, if you're really interested there's plenty of material out there for you to study and learn from about it, including the 2 books I posted links for.  I believe that a proper knowledge and understanding of the N.O. Mass would reveal that there is nothing "truly deficient", although I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

What I have to say about reunification is of no consequence and carries no weight.  That understood, part of my personal vision of it is that the liturgical rites and liturgies currently used in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches would be mutually accepted by both.  That is, whichever liturgy/rite is currently used by any particular church will be allowed to be continued to be used, and no one's liturgy/rite will be imposed upon another.  Whether that would be acceptable or would happen, only God knows.



As an example of what I mean by "deficient," I think that Western Rite Orthodox Churches insert an explicit epiklesis into the Tridentine mass because it only has an implicit epiklesis. It is my understanding, however, that an explicit epiklesis, modeled on the one by St. Basil the Great, was added into the NO mass, so that should no longer be an issue.

How silly is this complaint.  The Epiklesis is, itself, an innovation.

In the earliest eastern Byzantine liturgy, what is now called the epiklesis, were once called the bidding prayers and were used at the beginning of the liturgy to welcome the gifts [bread and wine] as they were brought into the cathedral.

The long view makes the whole discussion of "mine is better than yours" look silly.

M.

Can you provide the source for that.  I have never heard the Epiklesis termed an innovation.  It is found in the Liturgy of the Apostolic Constitution and the Canon of St Hippolytus both circa 4th century.

Not at the moment, I can't.  Maybe later when I have time to look for it again. 

I was interested in all the noise made over the epiklesis, so when I found the citation, I flew the idea on the ustav list many years ago that the Epiklesis, or the prayers calling the Holy Spirit upon the gifts happened as they entered the Church at the beginning of the liturgy and were called the "bidding prayers", and apparently among the old-heads there on the ustav list, it was not a new idea.  So I have accepted it as true.

You can call it what you want.  You can even call it a bit of "mis-information"...

Logged

88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,926



« Reply #182 on: August 16, 2011, 12:41:43 PM »

I recently attended a low mass. I rather liked it. And no, i didn't ask for any Orthodox priest's "blessing" to do so.
Ok?  Huh Did anyone ask if you did?

In Christ,
Andrew
No, true. but it cracks me up to read " with my Spiritual Father's blessing" As if he lives in a cave or hermitage.

Apostolic Canons:
Canon X. (XI.)
If any one shall pray, even in a private house, with an excommunicated person, let him also be excommunicated.

Hence why I wanted the permission of my Priest, to make sure I wasn't breaking that Canon.
(may I mention that while in Greece, I met and was friends with an Old Calendarist, who would call me an "ecumenist" for even attending a mass, thus I was a bit hesitant to go)

I see this post was ignored or passed over...
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #183 on: August 16, 2011, 12:47:57 PM »

Nowhere does the said canon say you can get a "blessing from your Spiritual Father to pray with the heretics" (ROFL). So I guess you excommunicated yourself now. And even your Spiritual Father (LOL) might be worthy of deposition.
Logged
gzt
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, then GOA, now OCA
Posts: 113


WWW
« Reply #184 on: August 16, 2011, 12:51:29 PM »

That most tempting panheresy, ecumenism, strikes again. I suppose I shall have to enter him onto my list of people to pray for. Or perhaps strike him from the list, I forget what you're supposed to do with ecumenists. Either way, something must be done with the panheretics.
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #185 on: August 16, 2011, 01:05:11 PM »

Pray for ecumenists and you'll automatically incur a "lata sententia". Oh, wait, I forgot only western heretics talk like that. I guess that the Taboric light will no longer be visible to you.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 01:06:07 PM by augustin717 » Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,926



« Reply #186 on: August 16, 2011, 01:09:04 PM »

Nowhere does the said canon say you can get a "blessing from your Spiritual Father to pray with the heretics" (ROFL). So I guess you excommunicated yourself now. And even your Spiritual Father (LOL) might be worthy of deposition.

Nowhere in the canon does it mention heretics, only those who are excommunicated. All heretics are excommunicated, but not all of the excommunicated are heretics.

Oh, and did Patriarch Bartholomew excommunicate himself?

And nowhere did I say I got his blessing, I said I received his permission, his okay. He didn't bless me to go. There is a difference.

While we are talking about excommunications, what about the excommunication of your hierarchs by the Patriarchate of Jerusalem? (and the threat by Serbia to do likewise)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 01:12:35 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #187 on: August 16, 2011, 01:14:50 PM »

Quote
Oh, and did Patriarch Bartholomew excommunicate himself?
You know the saying: quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi Angry
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,304


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #188 on: August 16, 2011, 01:25:49 PM »

Btw, what's wrong with the third one where they're all holding hands?
My guess is that the second one is not Catholic, but a Protestant Episcopalian service. At least there has been posted similar to this, on youtube, and it was Episcopalian. But if there is a reference to the Church and service in the picture, then we would know for sure.
[/quote]

Quoting errors in the above posts

My post is below:

When I was a Catholic in the infamous Archdiocese of Los Angeles under Cardinal Mahoney, often the children were called up to the altar to hold the priest's hands during the Our Father. This kind of post-Vatican II behavior is silly and not respectful.

In the Orthodox Church, you would never see laity invited to come into the Holy of Holies and hold hands during the Lord's Prayer. It would be unthinkable.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 01:28:48 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,540



« Reply #189 on: August 16, 2011, 01:31:54 PM »

Quote
Oh, and did Patriarch Bartholomew excommunicate himself?
You know the saying: quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi Angry

The internet sucks. When I read that, I fell out of my chair thinking you came up with this. Then realizing I should check . . .

Evidently, where I come from, people don't read a lot of Roman playwrights.

A moment ruined.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #190 on: August 16, 2011, 03:54:45 PM »

I recently attended a low mass. I rather liked it. And no, i didn't ask for any Orthodox priest's "blessing" to do so.
Ok?  Huh Did anyone ask if you did?

In Christ,
Andrew
No, true. but it cracks me up to read " with my Spiritual Father's blessing" As if he lives in a cave or hermitage.

Apostolic Canons:
Canon X. (XI.)
If any one shall pray, even in a private house, with an excommunicated person, let him also be excommunicated.

Hence why I wanted the permission of my Priest, to make sure I wasn't breaking that Canon.
(may I mention that while in Greece, I met and was friends with an Old Calendarist, who would call me an "ecumenist" for even attending a mass, thus I was a bit hesitant to go)

I see this post was ignored or passed over...
I saw an Orthodox priest say the Our Father with a Catholic priest. Now what?
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #191 on: August 16, 2011, 03:55:59 PM »

Pray for ecumenists and you'll automatically incur a "lata sententia". Oh, wait, I forgot only western heretics talk like that. I guess that the Taboric light will no longer be visible to you.
How do you define ecumenism? Is it a sin of ecumenism to take part in a joint Catholic-Orthodox committee ?
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #192 on: August 16, 2011, 04:11:50 PM »

Pray for ecumenists and you'll automatically incur a "lata sententia". Oh, wait, I forgot only western heretics talk like that. I guess that the Taboric light will no longer be visible to you.
How do you define ecumenism? Is it a sin of ecumenism to take part in a joint Catholic-Orthodox committee ?
I'll leave that for Devin to answer.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,304


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #193 on: August 16, 2011, 04:14:54 PM »

I recently attended a low mass. I rather liked it. And no, i didn't ask for any Orthodox priest's "blessing" to do so.
Ok?  Huh Did anyone ask if you did?

In Christ,
Andrew
No, true. but it cracks me up to read " with my Spiritual Father's blessing" As if he lives in a cave or hermitage.

Apostolic Canons:
Canon X. (XI.)
If any one shall pray, even in a private house, with an excommunicated person, let him also be excommunicated.

Hence why I wanted the permission of my Priest, to make sure I wasn't breaking that Canon.
(may I mention that while in Greece, I met and was friends with an Old Calendarist, who would call me an "ecumenist" for even attending a mass, thus I was a bit hesitant to go)

I see this post was ignored or passed over...
I saw an Orthodox priest say the Our Father with a Catholic priest. Now what?

Those of us who watched Pope Benedict VI visit the Phanar saw him pray with the His All Holiness.
That did not escape the notice of certain monks at Mt. Athos who cried foul.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,926



« Reply #194 on: August 16, 2011, 04:53:29 PM »

Pray for ecumenists and you'll automatically incur a "lata sententia". Oh, wait, I forgot only western heretics talk like that. I guess that the Taboric light will no longer be visible to you.
How do you define ecumenism? Is it a sin of ecumenism to take part in a joint Catholic-Orthodox committee ?
I'll leave that for Devin to answer.

The question as posed to you, not me. I've answered that question multiple times on this website, including one whole thread cottoning my thoughts and feelings on it.

The ball is in your court, not mine...
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #195 on: August 16, 2011, 05:06:55 PM »

well, it doesn't really matter to me as I am an apathetic ecumenist. Whatever.
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,540



« Reply #196 on: August 16, 2011, 05:15:13 PM »


That did not escape the notice of certain monks at Mt. Athos who cried foul.

Mt. Athos?

Well that settles the issue.

Can we get them a internet connection so we all nearly quit spending time here. A question, then the infallible answer.

Really any time spent here is a sin.

Better be repenting as and after you respond to this.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,374



« Reply #197 on: August 16, 2011, 06:42:32 PM »



And nowhere did I say I got his blessing, I said I received his permission, his okay. He didn't bless me to go. There is a difference.
You really like semantics.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 06:42:54 PM by Agabus » Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,438



WWW
« Reply #198 on: August 16, 2011, 06:57:35 PM »



And nowhere did I say I got his blessing, I said I received his permission, his okay. He didn't bless me to go. There is a difference.
You really like semantics.

Better than us thinking he's anti-Semantic.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,625



« Reply #199 on: August 16, 2011, 08:30:55 PM »


That did not escape the notice of certain monks at Mt. Athos who cried foul.

Mt. Athos?

Well that settles the issue.

Can we get them a internet connection so we all nearly quit spending time here. A question, then the infallible answer.

Really any time spent here is a sin.

Better be repenting as and after you respond to this.

While, Κύριε ἐλέησον, I, Κύριε ἐλέησον, get, Κύριε ἐλέησον, your, Κύριε ἐλέησον, point, Κύριε ἐλέησον, I, Κύριε ἐλέησον, wonder, Κύριε ἐλέησον, if, Κύριε ἐλέησον, you, Κύριε ἐλέησον, aren't, Κύριε ἐλέησον, a, Κύριε ἐλέησον, bit, Κύριε ἐλέησον, too, Κύριε ἐλέησον, disdainful, Κύριε ἐλέησον, of, Κύριε ἐλέησον, those, Κύριε ἐλέησον, who, Κύριε ἐλέησον, put, Κύριε ἐλέησον,their , Κύριε ἐλέησον, faith, Κύριε ἐλέησον, in, Κύριε ἐλέησον, the, Κύριε ἐλέησον, monks, Κύριε ἐλέησον, on, Κύριε ἐλέησον, Mt., Κύριε ἐλέησον, Athos. Κύριε ἐλέησον, Κύριε ἐλέησον, Κύριε ἐλέησον.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 08:32:46 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Vlad
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox, Greek Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 405



« Reply #200 on: August 16, 2011, 08:38:09 PM »

The RCC ick. The new Mass is an absolute joke. I have seen Lutheran services with more reverance. I used to be RCC and what started me on the path to OC was that I attended a Traditional Latin Mass and figured if the RCC was dumb enough to throw this out what else have they done wrong? Then I started a long study which led me to believe the RCC is heretical and the OC is the true Church.
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,540



« Reply #201 on: August 16, 2011, 08:49:36 PM »


That did not escape the notice of certain monks at Mt. Athos who cried foul.

Mt. Athos?

Well that settles the issue.

Can we get them a internet connection so we all nearly quit spending time here. A question, then the infallible answer.

Really any time spent here is a sin.

Better be repenting as and after you respond to this.

While, Κύριε ἐλέησον, I, Κύριε ἐλέησον, get, Κύριε ἐλέησον, your, Κύριε ἐλέησον, point, Κύριε ἐλέησον, I, Κύριε ἐλέησον, wonder, Κύριε ἐλέησον, if, Κύριε ἐλέησον, you, Κύριε ἐλέησον, aren't, Κύριε ἐλέησον, a, Κύριε ἐλέησον, bit, Κύριε ἐλέησον, too, Κύριε ἐλέησον, disdainful, Κύριε ἐλέησον, of, Κύριε ἐλέησον, those, Κύριε ἐλέησον, who, Κύριε ἐλέησον, put, Κύριε ἐλέησον,their , Κύριε ἐλέησον, faith, Κύριε ἐλέησον, in, Κύριε ἐλέησον, the, Κύριε ἐλέησον, monks, Κύριε ἐλέησον, on, Κύριε ἐλέησον, Mt., Κύριε ἐλέησον, Athos. Κύριε ἐλέησον, Κύριε ἐλέησον, Κύριε ἐλέησον.


Oh this board teems with more brilliance each day!

Better than cable.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 08:50:12 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,625



« Reply #202 on: August 16, 2011, 09:01:15 PM »


That did not escape the notice of certain monks at Mt. Athos who cried foul.

Mt. Athos?

Well that settles the issue.

Can we get them a internet connection so we all nearly quit spending time here. A question, then the infallible answer.

Really any time spent here is a sin.

Better be repenting as and after you respond to this.

While, Κύριε ἐλέησον, I, Κύριε ἐλέησον, get, Κύριε ἐλέησον, your, Κύριε ἐλέησον, point, Κύριε ἐλέησον, I, Κύριε ἐλέησον, wonder, Κύριε ἐλέησον, if, Κύριε ἐλέησον, you, Κύριε ἐλέησον, aren't, Κύριε ἐλέησον, a, Κύριε ἐλέησον, bit, Κύριε ἐλέησον, too, Κύριε ἐλέησον, disdainful, Κύριε ἐλέησον, of, Κύριε ἐλέησον, those, Κύριε ἐλέησον, who, Κύριε ἐλέησον, put, Κύριε ἐλέησον,their , Κύριε ἐλέησον, faith, Κύριε ἐλέησον, in, Κύριε ἐλέησον, the, Κύριε ἐλέησον, monks, Κύριε ἐλέησον, on, Κύριε ἐλέησον, Mt., Κύριε ἐλέησον, Athos. Κύριε ἐλέησον, Κύριε ἐλέησον, Κύριε ἐλέησον.


Oh this board teems with more brilliance each day!

Better than cable.



First you demand that I pray in repentance while I post and then you praise me and fill me with demonic pride. I think you are trying to put me on the fast track to hell. laughangel
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #203 on: August 16, 2011, 10:14:48 PM »

As an ex-RC who is not looking into EO (so I can stay out of this whole "my liturgy is better than your liturgy"/Old Believers business, Слава Богу), the posts that most resonated with me so far in this discussion are those of Isa Almisry. In the end, I could not deal with the cognitive dissonance of having experienced so many low points (on such a regular basis...) along with the high points that I suppose formed the sort of book ends on my four years in the RC. That it would ever be the case that sometimes diametrically opposed theologies coexist within a single communion is unthinkable to me, and yet this is what I experienced in the RC.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't judge the whole RC communion based on the few hundred liturgies I attended (in a few different parishes in different states, if that makes a difference), but I do take them to be representative of RC worship as it is practiced in the Latin church (since there's where I spent 99% of my time; only towards the very end did I spend some time with the Byzantine Catholics). To say it is problematic is at least a bit of an understatement. To pretend as though it is somehow acceptable that it is so because not every single N.O. Mass is like the worst you've ever seen is even worse. There comes a point when the preponderance of evidence from so many different unrelated sources should allow us to be able to draw some general conclusions without having to preface everything with bland pleasantries that, frankly, those who have seen fit to destroy authentic Latin Catholic spirituality do not deserve.

I write that not because I particularly care about the RC church as it is now, but because of my time in the RC (including visits to monasteries, hours upon hours of discussions with dedicated and well-informed priests and laypeople of virtually every Catholic rite, etc., all of which were very positive) I do have a sense of what it could be, had it not veered off the rails so many years ago. (Not with VII; that was in a sense the culmination of many centuries of development away from its historic orthodoxy.)

Frankly, I think those in the Roman Catholic communion are getting screwed, and that's without reference to any EO position. For all of your sakes, I hope that the "reform of the reform" that RCs tell me is just around the corner/underway (maybe in an effort to convince me to come back? Hahaha) goes better than the...uh...reform went.  Undecided
Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,304


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #204 on: August 16, 2011, 10:50:36 PM »

As an ex-RC who is not looking into EO (so I can stay out of this whole "my liturgy is better than your liturgy"/Old Believers business, Слава Богу), the posts that most resonated with me so far in this discussion are those of Isa Almisry. In the end, I could not deal with the cognitive dissonance of having experienced so many low points (on such a regular basis...) along with the high points that I suppose formed the sort of book ends on my four years in the RC. That it would ever be the case that sometimes diametrically opposed theologies coexist within a single communion is unthinkable to me, and yet this is what I experienced in the RC.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't judge the whole RC communion based on the few hundred liturgies I attended (in a few different parishes in different states, if that makes a difference), but I do take them to be representative of RC worship as it is practiced in the Latin church (since there's where I spent 99% of my time; only towards the very end did I spend some time with the Byzantine Catholics). To say it is problematic is at least a bit of an understatement. To pretend as though it is somehow acceptable that it is so because not every single N.O. Mass is like the worst you've ever seen is even worse. There comes a point when the preponderance of evidence from so many different unrelated sources should allow us to be able to draw some general conclusions without having to preface everything with bland pleasantries that, frankly, those who have seen fit to destroy authentic Latin Catholic spirituality do not deserve.

I write that not because I particularly care about the RC church as it is now, but because of my time in the RC (including visits to monasteries, hours upon hours of discussions with dedicated and well-informed priests and laypeople of virtually every Catholic rite, etc., all of which were very positive) I do have a sense of what it could be, had it not veered off the rails so many years ago. (Not with VII; that was in a sense the culmination of many centuries of development away from its historic orthodoxy.)

Frankly, I think those in the Roman Catholic communion are getting screwed, and that's without reference to any EO position. For all of your sakes, I hope that the "reform of the reform" that RCs tell me is just around the corner/underway (maybe in an effort to convince me to come back? Hahaha) goes better than the...uh...reform went.  Undecided

I am praying for a miracle as that is what it will take to bring the Vatican around.

Yes, there are devout Catholics, but when I was a Catholic back in the early 1990s, it seemed like they were falling all over themselves trying not to be HOLIER THAN THE POPE, They missed the point. We are to put on Christ Jesus, not imitate the Pope nor see how many musicians they can pack into a church for the clown NO.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,540



« Reply #205 on: August 16, 2011, 11:17:41 PM »

Before I comment, I have to check which thread I am in. Is it the one where I am bashing RCs or defending them . . .

Oh, yeah. Again the discussion like always has gotten away from the OP.

There is ZERO point in an EO coming on an EO internet board and trumpeting of his swearing off RC masses due to his final straw. Especially afflicted with a manner the Greeks would have called wandering-uteroitis or something like that. My Greek is terrible.

It is worse, when we have many lovely RCs here who obviously show his experience is not theirs.

Again, it would be more (at least) interesting and instructive to hear an EO come here and discuss problems in his own backyard.

I'll gladly starts throwing certain parishes under the bus and jurisdictions with pointed and accurate comments and we'll see how it feels.

But at least it would make some sense, this being an EO board.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,928



« Reply #206 on: August 16, 2011, 11:21:58 PM »

This thread makes me wish that there was an EO clown liturgy celebrated with lots of video and pictures just so we all would have to eat some humble pie.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 11:22:22 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,625



« Reply #207 on: August 16, 2011, 11:28:04 PM »

This thread makes me wish that there was an EO clown liturgy celebrated with lots of video and pictures just so we all would have to eat some humble pie.

Perhaps God could strike the clown celebrants dead afterward, so as to make an example of them.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #208 on: August 16, 2011, 11:41:41 PM »

Look, people...we all want to murder clowns, but like Orthonorm shows us, that is drifting away from the OP...
Logged

stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #209 on: August 16, 2011, 11:47:28 PM »

I recently attended a low mass. I rather liked it. And no, i didn't ask for any Orthodox priest's "blessing" to do so.
Ok?  Huh Did anyone ask if you did?

In Christ,
Andrew
No, true. but it cracks me up to read " with my Spiritual Father's blessing" As if he lives in a cave or hermitage.

Apostolic Canons:
Canon X. (XI.)
If any one shall pray, even in a private house, with an excommunicated person, let him also be excommunicated.

Hence why I wanted the permission of my Priest, to make sure I wasn't breaking that Canon.
(may I mention that while in Greece, I met and was friends with an Old Calendarist, who would call me an "ecumenist" for even attending a mass, thus I was a bit hesitant to go)

I see this post was ignored or passed over...
Why does  permission from an Orthodox priest allow you to violate a canon of the Church?
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,926



« Reply #210 on: August 17, 2011, 12:10:40 AM »

Before I comment, I have to check which thread I am in. Is it the one where I am bashing RCs or defending them . . .

Oh, yeah. Again the discussion like always has gotten away from the OP.

There is ZERO point in an EO coming on an EO internet board and trumpeting of his swearing off RC masses due to his final straw. Especially afflicted with a manner the Greeks would have called wandering-uteroitis or something like that. My Greek is terrible.

It is worse, when we have many lovely RCs here who obviously show his experience is not theirs.

Again, it would be more (at least) interesting and instructive to hear an EO come here and discuss problems in his own backyard.

I'll gladly starts throwing certain parishes under the bus and jurisdictions with pointed and accurate comments and we'll see how it feels.

But at least it would make some sense, this being an EO board.



I never said I wouldn't go back because I thought it sucked. I just probably won't go back for the same reason I don't attend many Protestant services anymore, they aren't Orthodox and my conscious is a little bit concerned about Ecumenism. Not to mention there isn't any reason for me to want to attend when we have the fullness of the faith in our church.
I was invited to this service, and I wanted to investigate to see if its a good alternative for a relative to join. (this relative currently doesn't attend church, and is also a freemason & a shriner)

I posted on here to give my reflections about what I experienced. It simply blew up into a big fight because things I said didn't sit well with some people.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 12:12:35 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #211 on: August 17, 2011, 12:17:29 AM »

Especially afflicted with a manner the Greeks would have called wandering-uteroitis or something like that. My Greek is terrible.

Well-played.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,540



« Reply #212 on: August 17, 2011, 12:19:01 AM »

Before I comment, I have to check which thread I am in. Is it the one where I am bashing RCs or defending them . . .

Oh, yeah. Again the discussion like always has gotten away from the OP.

There is ZERO point in an EO coming on an EO internet board and trumpeting of his swearing off RC masses due to his final straw. Especially afflicted with a manner the Greeks would have called wandering-uteroitis or something like that. My Greek is terrible.

It is worse, when we have many lovely RCs here who obviously show his experience is not theirs.

Again, it would be more (at least) interesting and instructive to hear an EO come here and discuss problems in his own backyard.

I'll gladly starts throwing certain parishes under the bus and jurisdictions with pointed and accurate comments and we'll see how it feels.

But at least it would make some sense, this being an EO board.



I never said I wouldn't go back because I thought it sucked. I just probably won't go back for the same reason I don't attend many Protestant services anymore, they aren't Orthodox and my conscious is a little bit concerned about Ecumenism. Not to mention there isn't any reason for me to want to attend when we have the fullness of the faith in our church.
I was invited to this service, and I wanted to investigate to see if its a good alternative for a relative to join. (this relative currently doesn't attend church, and is also a freemason & a shriner)

I posted on here to give my reflections about what I experienced. It simply blew up into a big fight because things I said didn't sit well with some people.


So I attended mass today with my brother and his fiance. (with my Priests permission)
I have to say, I was somewhat surprised, and yet, somewhat not.

It was a parish that used the novus ordo, and thus wasn't entirely "traditional". I was shocked to say the least, when the first hymn that was sung, was "Come Let Us Worship", a Protestant praise-worship hymn I grew up with in the Protestant Church.

However, I quickly got some comfort when we were responding with "Lord Have Mercies" and "Peace be with you" "And Also With You"... But most of the hymns seemed to be Protestant in origin.

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i". (I continued in our fashion) Of course, I didn't say "and the son" when it came to the Holy Spirit.

I was most surprised about communion. (which of course, I didn't go up and receive, though my sister-in-law invited me) First of all, it almost seemed like there was an element of an epiclesis there (that is, calling the Holy Spirit down), though you would have to do a little stretching to make the connection.

Also, I was really shocked to see that it was not the Priest that administered communion, but laypeople. The Priest handed the wafers to each communicant, but the laypeople with the chalices were the ones who would administer the cup to the congregants.

But I will give the Roman Catholic Church credit, I am glad they administered BOTH.

Also, I was shocked to see that they had little girls as altar servers. (The parish had just had a Priest that had been caught in sexual misconduct, so this surprised me more)
Apparently the Priests would also let the helpers consume the rest of the cups afterward. (of course, In our Church, it is only the Priest that does this)

Overall, what shocked me the most, was that it was this one girl (I wouldn't have cared about the sex of the person) who led most of the service and the singing. It almost seemed like the Priest(s) (one Priest, one Monsignor) were just there to provide the sacraments.

There was some comfort at times, and other times, there was simple disconnection. I will say that I can see why so many Roman Catholics are so upset by Vatican II.

Not meaning to offend here, but I sympathize with many of our Roman Catholic brethren out there. I hope and pray the Tridentine Mass comes back into common usage for you all.

My first (and probably last) experience with a Roman Catholic Mass was neither really bad, nor really good. There were good things and bad things. But I'll just say that it helped me cherish our Liturgy, and our services even more.

You PWN yourself. I looked up that wandering-uteroitis Greek thing, evidently is called hysteria.

Oh and thanks for sharing, your cool and informed reflections.

lulz. You do know what you write here stays here and stays and stays . . .
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 12:19:41 AM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,926



« Reply #213 on: August 17, 2011, 12:22:54 AM »

Before I comment, I have to check which thread I am in. Is it the one where I am bashing RCs or defending them . . .

Oh, yeah. Again the discussion like always has gotten away from the OP.

There is ZERO point in an EO coming on an EO internet board and trumpeting of his swearing off RC masses due to his final straw. Especially afflicted with a manner the Greeks would have called wandering-uteroitis or something like that. My Greek is terrible.

It is worse, when we have many lovely RCs here who obviously show his experience is not theirs.

Again, it would be more (at least) interesting and instructive to hear an EO come here and discuss problems in his own backyard.

I'll gladly starts throwing certain parishes under the bus and jurisdictions with pointed and accurate comments and we'll see how it feels.

But at least it would make some sense, this being an EO board.



I never said I wouldn't go back because I thought it sucked. I just probably won't go back for the same reason I don't attend many Protestant services anymore, they aren't Orthodox and my conscious is a little bit concerned about Ecumenism. Not to mention there isn't any reason for me to want to attend when we have the fullness of the faith in our church.
I was invited to this service, and I wanted to investigate to see if its a good alternative for a relative to join. (this relative currently doesn't attend church, and is also a freemason & a shriner)

I posted on here to give my reflections about what I experienced. It simply blew up into a big fight because things I said didn't sit well with some people.


So I attended mass today with my brother and his fiance. (with my Priests permission)
I have to say, I was somewhat surprised, and yet, somewhat not.

It was a parish that used the novus ordo, and thus wasn't entirely "traditional". I was shocked to say the least, when the first hymn that was sung, was "Come Let Us Worship", a Protestant praise-worship hymn I grew up with in the Protestant Church.

However, I quickly got some comfort when we were responding with "Lord Have Mercies" and "Peace be with you" "And Also With You"... But most of the hymns seemed to be Protestant in origin.

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i". (I continued in our fashion) Of course, I didn't say "and the son" when it came to the Holy Spirit.

I was most surprised about communion. (which of course, I didn't go up and receive, though my sister-in-law invited me) First of all, it almost seemed like there was an element of an epiclesis there (that is, calling the Holy Spirit down), though you would have to do a little stretching to make the connection.

Also, I was really shocked to see that it was not the Priest that administered communion, but laypeople. The Priest handed the wafers to each communicant, but the laypeople with the chalices were the ones who would administer the cup to the congregants.

But I will give the Roman Catholic Church credit, I am glad they administered BOTH.

Also, I was shocked to see that they had little girls as altar servers. (The parish had just had a Priest that had been caught in sexual misconduct, so this surprised me more)
Apparently the Priests would also let the helpers consume the rest of the cups afterward. (of course, In our Church, it is only the Priest that does this)

Overall, what shocked me the most, was that it was this one girl (I wouldn't have cared about the sex of the person) who led most of the service and the singing. It almost seemed like the Priest(s) (one Priest, one Monsignor) were just there to provide the sacraments.

There was some comfort at times, and other times, there was simple disconnection. I will say that I can see why so many Roman Catholics are so upset by Vatican II.

Not meaning to offend here, but I sympathize with many of our Roman Catholic brethren out there. I hope and pray the Tridentine Mass comes back into common usage for you all.

My first (and probably last) experience with a Roman Catholic Mass was neither really bad, nor really good. There were good things and bad things. But I'll just say that it helped me cherish our Liturgy, and our services even more.

You PWN yourself. I looked up that wandering-uteroitis Greek thing, evidently is called hysteria.

Oh and thanks for sharing, your cool and informed reflections.

lulz. You do know what you write here stays here and stays and stays . . .

wtf? I don't really understand what you are trying to get at. To me, what I said was NOT swearing it off, nor acted like it was my final straw.

Orthonorm, do you really presume to think you know what I'm trying to say? Or what I'm thinking?

You are acting just like trolls on hundreds of other internet forums, you ignore the context and facts of what someone says, and choose to attack them by putting a slight spin on their words so you can treat them like they're complete idiots.

Its the same darn thing again, and again on every internet forum, and you're acting no different than them. See, that is what I have always liked about this website, is it has kept that kind of behavior to a minimum compared to others, it's a nice break ya know? Yet you come in here and bust that wide open just because you happen to disagree with someone.

Why would I really care if it stays on here?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 12:25:43 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #214 on: August 17, 2011, 12:23:10 AM »

I recently attended a low mass. I rather liked it. And no, i didn't ask for any Orthodox priest's "blessing" to do so.
Ok?  Huh Did anyone ask if you did?

In Christ,
Andrew
No, true. but it cracks me up to read " with my Spiritual Father's blessing" As if he lives in a cave or hermitage.

Apostolic Canons:
Canon X. (XI.)
If any one shall pray, even in a private house, with an excommunicated person, let him also be excommunicated.

Hence why I wanted the permission of my Priest, to make sure I wasn't breaking that Canon.
(may I mention that while in Greece, I met and was friends with an Old Calendarist, who would call me an "ecumenist" for even attending a mass, thus I was a bit hesitant to go)

I see this post was ignored or passed over...
Why does  permission from an Orthodox priest allow you to violate a canon of the Church?
The canons are more or less subject to pastoral discretion. He was doing it as a kindness for a relative and was careful not to actually join in the prayers.
Logged
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,438



WWW
« Reply #215 on: August 17, 2011, 12:24:25 AM »

Before I comment, I have to check which thread I am in. Is it the one where I am bashing RCs or defending them . . .

Oh, yeah. Again the discussion like always has gotten away from the OP.

There is ZERO point in an EO coming on an EO internet board and trumpeting of his swearing off RC masses due to his final straw. Especially afflicted with a manner the Greeks would have called wandering-uteroitis or something like that. My Greek is terrible.

It is worse, when we have many lovely RCs here who obviously show his experience is not theirs.

Again, it would be more (at least) interesting and instructive to hear an EO come here and discuss problems in his own backyard.

I'll gladly starts throwing certain parishes under the bus and jurisdictions with pointed and accurate comments and we'll see how it feels.

But at least it would make some sense, this being an EO board.



I never said I wouldn't go back because I thought it sucked. I just probably won't go back for the same reason I don't attend many Protestant services anymore, they aren't Orthodox and my conscious is a little bit concerned about Ecumenism. Not to mention there isn't any reason for me to want to attend when we have the fullness of the faith in our church.
I was invited to this service, and I wanted to investigate to see if its a good alternative for a relative to join. (this relative currently doesn't attend church, and is also a freemason & a shriner)

I posted on here to give my reflections about what I experienced. It simply blew up into a big fight because things I said didn't sit well with some people.

I think the point is that it's not exactly good form to go to another's church and crow about how far off track you thought it was. It'd be one thing if  you were relating a pre-Orthodox experience as one of the reasons you became Orthodox (oh, the banal mega-church rock band services!) it's quite a different thing to go to a church you have no real experience with and then do so.

 I don't need you to tell me an Episcopal Church is blasphemous and heretical and recites the Creed "Mother, Daughter and Sophia" I used to be Episcopalian and know this happens from experience. I don't need you to tell me the Baptists are kind of crazy and they serve grape juice in shot glasses. It does me no good, and makes me feel sad for my former coreligionists, and all it does is make us look bad to any visiting Episcopalians and Baptists.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #216 on: August 17, 2011, 12:28:38 AM »

I don't need you to tell me an Episcopal Church is blasphemous and heretical and recites the Creed "Mother, Daughter and Sophia".

Wow, that seriously happens?

Why bother with the creed at all when the whole thing is obviously a theological free-for-all?
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,926



« Reply #217 on: August 17, 2011, 12:32:53 AM »

Before I comment, I have to check which thread I am in. Is it the one where I am bashing RCs or defending them . . .

Oh, yeah. Again the discussion like always has gotten away from the OP.

There is ZERO point in an EO coming on an EO internet board and trumpeting of his swearing off RC masses due to his final straw. Especially afflicted with a manner the Greeks would have called wandering-uteroitis or something like that. My Greek is terrible.

It is worse, when we have many lovely RCs here who obviously show his experience is not theirs.

Again, it would be more (at least) interesting and instructive to hear an EO come here and discuss problems in his own backyard.

I'll gladly starts throwing certain parishes under the bus and jurisdictions with pointed and accurate comments and we'll see how it feels.

But at least it would make some sense, this being an EO board.



I never said I wouldn't go back because I thought it sucked. I just probably won't go back for the same reason I don't attend many Protestant services anymore, they aren't Orthodox and my conscious is a little bit concerned about Ecumenism. Not to mention there isn't any reason for me to want to attend when we have the fullness of the faith in our church.
I was invited to this service, and I wanted to investigate to see if its a good alternative for a relative to join. (this relative currently doesn't attend church, and is also a freemason & a shriner)

I posted on here to give my reflections about what I experienced. It simply blew up into a big fight because things I said didn't sit well with some people.

I think the point is that it's not exactly good form to go to another's church and crow about how far off track you thought it was. It'd be one thing if  you were relating a pre-Orthodox experience as one of the reasons you became Orthodox (oh, the banal mega-church rock band services!) it's quite a different thing to go to a church you have no real experience with and then do so.

 I don't need you to tell me an Episcopal Church is blasphemous and heretical and recites the Creed "Mother, Daughter and Sophia" I used to be Episcopalian and know this happens from experience. I don't need you to tell me the Baptists are kind of crazy and they serve grape juice in shot glasses. It does me no good, and makes me feel sad for my former coreligionists, and all it does is make us look bad to any visiting Episcopalians and Baptists.

Sorry if I'm just kind of sick and tired of seeing people trying to trumpet the Roman Catholic Church as being "so similar" in many ways to our church... In my mind, every Orthodox needs to realize that we aren't so similar to the West, and for the most part, we need to separate ourselves from them as much as possible.

I'm also doing it against the very small minority in the church that would possibly like to see similar changes occur to our church. People need to realize that this is absolutely not an option for us, and that the Roman Catholic Church will have to make major changes if it wants reunion to occur.
Logged
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,438



WWW
« Reply #218 on: August 17, 2011, 12:45:12 AM »

I don't need you to tell me an Episcopal Church is blasphemous and heretical and recites the Creed "Mother, Daughter and Sophia".

Wow, that seriously happens?

Why bother with the creed at all when the whole thing is obviously a theological free-for-all?

That's not the point. Our Episcopalian board members don't log on here to discuss the problems with their church, they're here to find out more about ours. If they wanted discussions about funny creeds or gay priests they'd start them theirselves or go to one of the many Episcopalian forums or blogs.


Sometimes our Catholic members want to get into, when they do, let them start it.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #219 on: August 17, 2011, 01:03:43 AM »

... the Roman Catholic Church will have to make major changes if it wants reunion to occur.
Obviously, we know already about the objections to  the infallibility and Universal and Supreme jurisidiction of the Roman Pope, and to the sorry state of the present RC liturgy.  But as a  point of question, in your opinion, what other specific changes would be necessary for the RCC to make for reunion? Thanks.
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #220 on: August 17, 2011, 01:18:19 AM »

I don't need you to tell me an Episcopal Church is blasphemous and heretical and recites the Creed "Mother, Daughter and Sophia".

Wow, that seriously happens?

Why bother with the creed at all when the whole thing is obviously a theological free-for-all?

That's not the point. Our Episcopalian board members don't log on here to discuss the problems with their church, they're here to find out more about ours. If they wanted discussions about funny creeds or gay priests they'd start them theirselves or go to one of the many Episcopalian forums or blogs.


Sometimes our Catholic members want to get into, when they do, let them start it.

I know, sorry to detract from your point. I just had a moment reading that ...
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,926



« Reply #221 on: August 17, 2011, 01:41:25 AM »

... the Roman Catholic Church will have to make major changes if it wants reunion to occur.
Obviously, we know already about the objections to  the infallibility and Universal and Supreme jurisidiction of the Roman Pope, and to the sorry state of the present RC liturgy.  But as a  point of question, in your opinion, what other specific changes would be necessary for the RCC to make for reunion? Thanks.

This list is a bit old and I might make minor changes, but it is a list I had posted in a discussion on another forum...

Quote
Repudiate/Reject:
1. Papal Universal Jurisdiction
2. Papal Infallibility
3. Papal Petrine exclusivism (i.e., that only the Pope is Peter’s successor)
4. Development of Doctrine
5. The Filioque
6. Original Sin understood as guilt transmitted via “propagation”
7. The Immaculate Conception of Mary
8. Divine Simplicity
9. Merit and Satisfaction soteriology
10. Purgatory and Indulgences
11. Created grace
12. Painting of religious imagery contrary to the traditional forms. (For veneration and ecclesiastical use)
13. Gregorian Reforms, Vatican I, Vatican II, and almost every Post-Schism Council
14. Adoption of secular music into Liturgical worship.
15. Mandatory clerical celibacy
16. Use of Unleavened Bread
17. Self-Flagellation/Mortification of the Flesh
18. Adoration of images (vs. veneration)
19. Allowing Priests/Bishops who have fallen into fornication to celebrate Liturgy/Mass
20. Sitting during worship
21. Punishment of heretics by temporal/physical means
22. Legalistic theology
23. Use of instruments in worship
24. Faith built on science/reason
25. Satisfaction theory of atonement
26. Transubstantiation
27. Marriage as legal contract
28. Sacraments (vs. Mysteries)
29. Assumption of Mary (vs. Dormition)
30. Use of statues ecclesiastically
31. Kneeling/Prostrating on Sundays

Accept/Restore:
1. The authority of Ecumenical Councils over the Pope
2. The Essence/Energies distinction
3. Reconnect Confirmation/Chrismation back to Baptism rather than delaying it
4. Administer Holy Communion (both body & blood) to all Church members, including infants
5. Pre-Tridentine form(s) of Liturgy/Mass
6. Praying to the East
7. Traditional fasting, including Wed/Fri fasts and all fasting periods
8. Right-to-left Sign of the Cross
9. Canons as guide rather than law
10. Traditional method of dating Pascha/Easter[\quote]

Some comes from:

http://saintpaulemmaus.org/files/heterodoxy/02---Outline.pdf
Which is a file that serves as an outline for a podcast series titled "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy", it's specifically for the program that discusses Orthodoxy & Roman Catholicism. (which is in two parts)
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences_-part_2

Some from:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RJoRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA87&dq=LXV.+Held+1450&hl=en&ei=OTMETdK6NpXqnQfa5-HlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=LXV.%20Held%201450&f=false

And lastly some from:
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html


Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,926



« Reply #222 on: August 17, 2011, 01:45:32 AM »

The discussion had lasted for over 2000 replies I think and so there are some things I'd change or remove from that list.
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #223 on: August 17, 2011, 01:45:52 AM »

When do RCs adore images?
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,926



« Reply #224 on: August 17, 2011, 01:53:23 AM »

When do RCs adore images?

That is one of the points I would remove... In an Orthodox council where he RCC was condemned, among some of the charges was that they adored images instead of simply venerating them. But I don't think they adore or worship images. But it is a charge that one of our councils made against them.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.194 seconds with 72 queries.