Author Topic: Absolute Divorce  (Read 3458 times)

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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #90 on: January 26, 2016, 04:03:22 PM »
Rabanus Maurus is even more specific:

Quote
Et quia meretrix et quae semel fuerat adultera opprobrium non timebat, secundo praecipitur viro, quod si talem duxerit, sub adulterii crimine sit; una ergo solummodo carnalis est causa, id est, fornicatio, una spiritalis, id est, timor Dei, ut uxor dimittatur, sicut multi religionis [Col.1018C] causa fecisse leguntur. Nulla autem causa est Dei lege praescripta ut vivente ea quae relicta est alia ducatur. Commentary on Matthew PL 107

Please provide a translation for this as well. 

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


Quote
Therefore, only one fleshly way, fornication, and one spiritual way, fear of God, are causes for a wife to be divorced (subjunctive case), just as with many religions it is recited to have made a cause [for divorce]. However, there is no cause in the prescribed law of God so that the living woman who is divorced is to be married by another.
The rest of what he says is basically verbatum of Jerome. He is speaking to the case of a woman legally divorced who may not have been divorced on legitimate grounds.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 04:03:39 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #91 on: January 26, 2016, 04:54:57 PM »
Right, because as Jesus famously said: "Fear not, majority group, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."
More bible babbling.

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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #92 on: January 26, 2016, 05:00:47 PM »
Quote
I agree, which is why I'm Orthodox.  If I referred to my Church as a denomination along with your own, it was only because of my great charity.
"Great" charity eh Mor? It drips with humility. ;D

Quote
So Protestantism is more of a Church than EO according to you.  Great!   
Au contraire mon frere.

But if you're going to use the "denomination" terminology, I guess we have to go by the numbers.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #93 on: January 26, 2016, 05:03:17 PM »
Quote
No, the grounds for annulments just get expanded over time so the RCC can play legalistic word games and maintain that it has not changed its teaching.
I don't know enough about that to comment on it. But, we do live in a very paganized culture and most Catholics are not well catechized in their Faith anymore, so perhaps the grounds have been exapnded for a reason. I don't know, post something up if you have any evidence of the exapnsion of the reasons for an invalid marriage.

Quote
I also enjoy this fantasy that Orthodox people are getting ecclesiastical divorces left and right - I mean why not, right?
I'm not saying it's rampant, but it is available, right? I think just for the mere fact it is, opens the door to problems to begin with. IMO.

Quote
They get three of 'em! I
They shouldn't have any. I mean, why the number anyway? Why stop at just three?

Quote
I think it would be enlightening to compare the rates of civil divorce between Catholics and Orthodox. Not sure there would be much of a difference.
i think you're right. I really don't think there is a huge difference in the numbers between all Christian marriage/divorces these days. Sadly, I bet non-Christian religions like Moslem and Hindu have a far better track record of staying married in this country. I could be wrong, but I'd almost bet on it without looking it up.

Hi Charles. I'm a former Roman and Byzantine Catholic and a separated, but married woman. In order to help you out a bit in clarifying the subject, would you please post the sources you were reading from regarding orthodox divorce? I'd like to be if some help to you.
I don't have any. I wasn't defending EO doctrine on divorce and remarrying. and divorce and remarrying. and..

You get the gist.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #94 on: January 26, 2016, 05:09:13 PM »


I am afraid this is not realistic, not even close.

Counting all baptized people and rounding up the number to boost it is a gross exaggeration of the reality. If we count only people who attend Church regularly, believe, confess and take communion the number way way lower.

In protestantism, they cannot count the baptized children(they do not believe in child baptism), protestantism is of different nature, cult leaders and guru-pastors are of very seductive nature, they have actual members....

So in a realistic counting, protestantism will dwarf us so hard, we wouldn't be even visible on the chart.
Protty's all came from Rome originally. there wasn't even a "protestant church" a little more than 500 yrs ago.Even today. Just about every "born-again" or Evangelical types  I ever met were all former RC's. I would bet about 90% of all the EO converts on this board came over  from Rome. And while Rome is losing numbers in Europe and the West, it is the fasting growing religion in Africa and the East, with possibly the exception of Islam.

There are literally more Catholics alone than Moslems, the second biggest religion in the world.

The chart is more realistic than you can concieve.

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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #95 on: January 26, 2016, 05:10:31 PM »
Quote
The key word being πορνείας which is rendered as either fornication or sexual immorality in Strong's Concordance.

So, how from the above does Charles Martel gather that Christ absolutely forbade divorce?
At the risk of playing this game of Sola Scriptura, when Christ made that statement about divorcing on grounds of "fornication" he clearly stated to the Pharisees that it was because of the "hardness of their hearts" that Moses permitted them to put away their wives,  but from the beginning of creation it was not so and God always intended for theIndissolubility of marriage.

You're conflating your passages. Matthew 5:32 mentions nothing of the pharassies, and is framed by Christ as an update to the Mosaic law mentioned in verse 31.
I'm not conflating nothing, he was addressing what the Pharisees earlier stated the allowed separation put forward by Moses.

This was also validated later  in the writings of St. Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit;

"To them that are married, not I but the Lord commandeth, that the wife depart not from her husband. And if she depart, she remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband. And let not the husband put away his wife" (1 Corinthians 7:10, 11)

Please, read Matthew Chapter 5 and quote me where the allowance for divorced in the case of adultry is tied to the Mosaic Law and the Pharisees.
I'm done babbling about bible verses like I'm in some kind of a tent revival full of snake handlers.

The RCC esablishes it's doctrines through a collective process of Tradition, Sacred Scripture and Magesterial Teaching.

Not Sola Scriptura.

Having said that, the RCC postion on divorce points to Christ's restoration of Marriage in it's Original Indissolubility. in other words, there can never be absolute divorce once it has been validly consumated. And the key word here, if there's a problem and ensuing tribunal  investigation is, "validly". Now, if you have a problem with that, take it up with the Vatican or go get your get out three get out of marriage free passes from the EOC.

You can argue and quote bible verses and saints all you want, even mock me and the Church's anullment system. Guess what, it's not going to change anything, the Church does not, will not or has ever accepted absolute dovorce.

Far better minds than me or anyone on this forum has established this fact and there's no sense in bickering about it here.

This is where I stand.

You mean this tradition?

Quote
[Col.0135A] (Vers. 9.) Dico autem vobis, quia quicumque dimiserit uxorem suam, nisi ob fornicationem, et aliam duxerit, moechatur. Et qui dimissam duxerit, moechatur. Sola fornicatio est quae uxoris vincat affectum: immo cum illa unam carnem in aliam diviserit, et se fornicatione separaverit 146 a marito, non debet teneri: ne virum quoque sub maledicto faciat, dicente Scriptura: Qui adulteram tenet, stultus et impius est. Ubicumque est igitur fornicatio, et fornicationis suspicio, libere uxor dimittitur. Et quia poterat accidere, ut aliquis calumniam faceret innocenti, et ob secundam copulam nuptiarum, veteri crimen impingeret, sic priorem dimittere jubetur uxorem, ut secundam, prima vivente, non habeat. Quod enim dicit, tale est: Si non propter libidinem, [Col.0135B] sed propter injuriam dimittis uxorem: quare expertus infelices priores nuptias, novarum te immittis periculo? Necnon quia poterat evenire, ut juxta eamdem legem uxor quoque marito daret repudium, eadem cautela praecipitur, ne secundum accipiat virum. Et quia meretrix, et quae semel fuerat adultera, opprobrium non timebat, secundo [a 1Kb]  praecipitur viro, quod si talem duxerit, sub adulterii sit crimine. Saint Jerome, Commentary on Matthew PL 26

Allow me to translate, but I ask that my friends here who are far better at Latin than I please forgive any mistakes I make. I am a bit rusty:

Quote
Therefore when one has divided the one flesh into two, and has separated themselves by fornication from the marriage, the marriage ought not to hold: lest the man too fall under evil, as it is said in the Scriptures: He who holds an adulteress is foolish and impious.Wheresoever therefore there is a fornicator and a suspected fornicator, the wife (the presumed cheater) is to be divorced freely. And because he (the husband) was able to sever [the marriage] so that anyone may make a false accusation without harm, and on account for the second bond of marriage, he would have been driven to a crime with the old [marriage] (he eludes to murder). Thus he wishes to divorce the first wife; so that he may not have the second wife living with the first. In fact [or rather on the contrary for such evil lustful designs], what he says is such: if it is not on account for pleasure, but rather injury, you divorce [your] wife: Why then would the injured party who endured an unfaithful first marriage, allow for the peril of a new one? And indeed he was able to proceed so that the joined wife may too wish to render a legal divorce. The same caution is advised [to the woman] in that she may not marry another man. And because the whore and who was once an adulterer does not fear punishment, to the second man it is warned, that if he marries such a person he may be under the crime of adultery.

Why is it may? It is may because we can hardly ever be sure if the woman divorced or the man divorced ever actually committed adultery. Therefore in such a case the marriage is still valid according to Jerome, so the second spouse would be guilty.

Rabanus Maurus is even more specific:

Quote
Et quia meretrix et quae semel fuerat adultera opprobrium non timebat, secundo praecipitur viro, quod si talem duxerit, sub adulterii crimine sit; una ergo solummodo carnalis est causa, id est, fornicatio, una spiritalis, id est, timor Dei, ut uxor dimittatur, sicut multi religionis [Col.1018C] causa fecisse leguntur. Nulla autem causa est Dei lege praescripta ut vivente ea quae relicta est alia ducatur. Commentary on Matthew PL 107
Source please.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #96 on: January 26, 2016, 05:12:48 PM »
I'm done babbling about bible verses like I'm in some kind of a tent revival full of snake handlers.

If you were able to babble about Bible verses like the Church Fathers, you would be much better off, individually and as a denomination.
There are no "denominations" really in Christianity, there's only the True Faith and everyone else.

And at the risk of getting into another argument about schism, if you're going down that road of denominationalism , you need to look at that chart before you start classifying the RCC of being a "denomination";



You do realize the argument implicit in this pie chart was condemned in the Syllabus of Errors.
I'm sure. Like I said, there's no real chart on "denominations", there's only the True Faith and heresy.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #97 on: January 26, 2016, 05:24:55 PM »
Source please.

I've listed the sources already, although I did not give the name for what PL stands for. It stands for the Patrologia Latina. The works I pulled from come from the corresponding volumes that I listed: 26 and 107. There are google books versions of these works available freely. Or if you are fortunate, you have access to the PL electronic database like myself. The column numbers in the brackets are the corresponding page numbers of the original printed editions. So when you look at them via google books, look at the page numbers in the top right and left corners for the appropriate column/page numbers. See my quoted Latin for the appropriate citation.

http://patristica.net/latina/
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 05:31:29 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline Seraffa

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #98 on: January 26, 2016, 05:25:06 PM »
Quote
No, the grounds for annulments just get expanded over time so the RCC can play legalistic word games and maintain that it has not changed its teaching.
I don't know enough about that to comment on it. But, we do live in a very paganized culture and most Catholics are not well catechized in their Faith anymore, so perhaps the grounds have been exapnded for a reason. I don't know, post something up if you have any evidence of the exapnsion of the reasons for an invalid marriage.

Quote
I also enjoy this fantasy that Orthodox people are getting ecclesiastical divorces left and right - I mean why not, right?
I'm not saying it's rampant, but it is available, right? I think just for the mere fact it is, opens the door to problems to begin with. IMO.

Quote
They get three of 'em! I
They shouldn't have any. I mean, why the number anyway? Why stop at just three?

Quote
I think it would be enlightening to compare the rates of civil divorce between Catholics and Orthodox. Not sure there would be much of a difference.
i think you're right. I really don't think there is a huge difference in the numbers between all Christian marriage/divorces these days. Sadly, I bet non-Christian religions like Moslem and Hindu have a far better track record of staying married in this country. I could be wrong, but I'd almost bet on it without looking it up.

Hi Charles. I'm a former Roman and Byzantine Catholic and a separated, but married woman. In order to help you out a bit in clarifying the subject, would you please post the sources you were reading from regarding orthodox divorce? I'd like to be if some help to you.
I don't have any. I wasn't defending EO doctrine on divorce and remarrying. and divorce and remarrying. and..

You get the gist.

Hi. I had to grab just a random post in order to reply. I wasn't referring to the above quotations specifically. I was just seeing if I could respond to you normally about the very first post you made to start the thread. It's extremely difficult with all these other people jumping in. If you don't mind, I can respond to you singly if you don't want to respond to all the other posters.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #99 on: January 26, 2016, 06:02:24 PM »
Quote
So Protestantism is more of a Church than EO according to you.  Great!   
Au contraire mon frere.

But if you're going to use the "denomination" terminology, I guess we have to go by the numbers.

No, we don't.  You and I disagree on what is "the True Faith" and what is "heresy" when it comes to our respective Churches.  I'm trying to be nice about that by using a rather neutral term. 

But you seem intent on being a "size matters" guy, and in that case, Protestantism is more of a Church than EO according to your standards.  That puts you at odds with your own Church's beliefs and teachings, but you're in good company:

« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 06:03:13 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #100 on: January 26, 2016, 06:40:00 PM »
I'm done babbling about bible verses like I'm in some kind of a tent revival full of snake handlers.

If you were able to babble about Bible verses like the Church Fathers, you would be much better off, individually and as a denomination.
There are no "denominations" really in Christianity, there's only the True Faith and everyone else.

And at the risk of getting into another argument about schism, if you're going down that road of denominationalism , you need to look at that chart before you start classifying the RCC of being a "denomination";



You do realize the argument implicit in this pie chart was condemned in the Syllabus of Errors.
I'm sure. Like I said, there's no real chart on "denominations", there's only the True Faith and heresy.

Then why bring up numbers at all?
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #101 on: January 27, 2016, 07:40:07 PM »
Source please.

I've listed the sources already, although I did not give the name for what PL stands for. It stands for the Patrologia Latina. The works I pulled from come from the corresponding volumes that I listed: 26 and 107. There are google books versions of these works available freely. Or if you are fortunate, you have access to the PL electronic database like myself. The column numbers in the brackets are the corresponding page numbers of the original printed editions. So when you look at them via google books, look at the page numbers in the top right and left corners for the appropriate column/page numbers. See my quoted Latin for the appropriate citation.

http://patristica.net/latina/
ok
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #102 on: January 27, 2016, 07:40:40 PM »
Quote
No, the grounds for annulments just get expanded over time so the RCC can play legalistic word games and maintain that it has not changed its teaching.
I don't know enough about that to comment on it. But, we do live in a very paganized culture and most Catholics are not well catechized in their Faith anymore, so perhaps the grounds have been exapnded for a reason. I don't know, post something up if you have any evidence of the exapnsion of the reasons for an invalid marriage.

Quote
I also enjoy this fantasy that Orthodox people are getting ecclesiastical divorces left and right - I mean why not, right?
I'm not saying it's rampant, but it is available, right? I think just for the mere fact it is, opens the door to problems to begin with. IMO.

Quote
They get three of 'em! I
They shouldn't have any. I mean, why the number anyway? Why stop at just three?

Quote
I think it would be enlightening to compare the rates of civil divorce between Catholics and Orthodox. Not sure there would be much of a difference.
i think you're right. I really don't think there is a huge difference in the numbers between all Christian marriage/divorces these days. Sadly, I bet non-Christian religions like Moslem and Hindu have a far better track record of staying married in this country. I could be wrong, but I'd almost bet on it without looking it up.

Hi Charles. I'm a former Roman and Byzantine Catholic and a separated, but married woman. In order to help you out a bit in clarifying the subject, would you please post the sources you were reading from regarding orthodox divorce? I'd like to be if some help to you.
I don't have any. I wasn't defending EO doctrine on divorce and remarrying. and divorce and remarrying. and..

You get the gist.

Hi. I had to grab just a random post in order to reply. I wasn't referring to the above quotations specifically. I was just seeing if I could respond to you normally about the very first post you made to start the thread. It's extremely difficult with all these other people jumping in. If you don't mind, I can respond to you singly if you don't want to respond to all the other posters.
no problem.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #103 on: January 27, 2016, 08:01:55 PM »
Quote
No, we don't.  You and I disagree on what is "the True Faith" and what is "heresy" when it comes to our respective Churches.  I'm trying to be nice about that by using a rather neutral term. 
Calling the RCC in it's very nature a "denomination" is an insult in and of itself. Whether you believe we are on just opposites sides of the schism or I belong to a heretical "sect" of Christianity is irrelevant to me. I see nothing to convince me that I don't belong to the True Faith. you don't have to be "nice" Mor, you just have to tell the truth.

Quote
But you seem intent on being a "size matters" guy, and in that case, Protestantism is more of a Church than EO according to your standard
You're the one who went down that "denominatioin" road, I was merely making an observation about the numbers, that's all really. I was actually mocking it with that "size matters" routine,

Quote
That puts you at odds with your own Church's beliefs and teachings, but you're in good company:
What's your point here?
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #104 on: January 27, 2016, 08:02:48 PM »
I'm done babbling about bible verses like I'm in some kind of a tent revival full of snake handlers.

If you were able to babble about Bible verses like the Church Fathers, you would be much better off, individually and as a denomination.
There are no "denominations" really in Christianity, there's only the True Faith and everyone else.

And at the risk of getting into another argument about schism, if you're going down that road of denominationalism , you need to look at that chart before you start classifying the RCC of being a "denomination";



You do realize the argument implicit in this pie chart was condemned in the Syllabus of Errors.
I'm sure. Like I said, there's no real chart on "denominations", there's only the True Faith and heresy.

Then why bring up numbers at all?
I was being facetious.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #105 on: January 27, 2016, 08:10:26 PM »
Quote
No, we don't.  You and I disagree on what is "the True Faith" and what is "heresy" when it comes to our respective Churches.  I'm trying to be nice about that by using a rather neutral term. 
Calling the RCC in it's very nature a "denomination" is an insult in and of itself.

What does that even mean?  What do you think "denomination" means and connotes?

Quote
Whether you believe we are on just opposites sides of the schism or I belong to a heretical "sect" of Christianity is irrelevant to me. I see nothing to convince me that I don't belong to the True Faith. you don't have to be "nice" Mor, you just have to tell the truth.

Fine.  Roman Catholicism is a heretical form of Christianity which, as it currently exists, is incompatible with true Christianity (i.e., Orthodoxy).  It has given birth to many evils in the world.  The good things it has created and promoted in the world are in spite of, not because of, its falsehoods.   

Quote
Quote
But you seem intent on being a "size matters" guy, and in that case, Protestantism is more of a Church than EO according to your standard
You're the one who went down that "denominatioin" road, I was merely making an observation about the numbers, that's all really. I was actually mocking it with that "size matters" routine,

Quote
That puts you at odds with your own Church's beliefs and teachings, but you're in good company:
What's your point here?

Your Pope seems to disagree with his predecessor Pope Leo XIII, among others.
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #106 on: January 28, 2016, 08:50:04 AM »
Quote
What does that even mean?  What do you think "denomination" means and connotes?
Regardless of whatever you think it means, it is not applicable to the RCC.  The Church is not some autonomous branch of the True Faith. The Church IS the True Faith. All  these "denominations" are to me are supposed "christians" who choose not believe this.

Quote
Fine.  Roman Catholicism is a heretical form of Christianity which, as it currently exists, is incompatible with true Christianity (i.e., Orthodoxy).
Ah, the gospel according to Mor. Maybe you should preach this to YOUR hiearchy to not be fratenizing or  to publicly show affection to the leader of these so-called "heretics;







Quote
It has given birth to many evils in the world
Name one. I know there have been evil  (so-called)Catholics throughout history, but show me where Roman Catholicism is the progenitor of said "evil".

Quote
The good things it has created and promoted in the world are in spite of, not because of, its falsehoods.   
Can a bad tree produce good fruit?

Quote
Your Pope seems to disagree with his predecessor Pope Leo XIII, among others.
On what issues? Has he come out and spoken ex cathedra against the dogma and doctrines of the Church? Let me know when he has.

As for popes disagreeing, there were disagreements among the Apostles on some theoretical issues, even between the first pope (St. Peter) and the most prominent figure of the Apostolic Age spreading the message of the Gospel and establishing the early Christian Church.(St. Paul)
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #107 on: January 28, 2016, 01:43:35 PM »
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What does that even mean?  What do you think "denomination" means and connotes?
Regardless of whatever you think it means, it is not applicable to the RCC. 

That's stupid. 

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The Church is not some autonomous branch of the True Faith. The Church IS the True Faith. All  these "denominations" are to me are supposed "christians" who choose not believe this.

The Church is a body of people who confess the true faith.  They are not themselves "the true faith". 

But I suppose that is a difference between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.  Orthodoxy professes faith in that which was revealed from the Father.  Catholicism professes faith in a white-robed bishop and his bureaucracy. 

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Fine.  Roman Catholicism is a heretical form of Christianity which, as it currently exists, is incompatible with true Christianity (i.e., Orthodoxy).
Ah, the gospel according to Mor. Maybe you should preach this to YOUR hiearchy to not be fratenizing or  to publicly show affection to the leader of these so-called "heretics

"Love your enemies."

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It has given birth to many evils in the world
Name one.

Protestantism.

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I know there have been evil  (so-called)Catholics throughout history, but show me where Roman Catholicism is the progenitor of said "evil".

Ah, so now the faith is different from the people professing it.  How convenient for you. 

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The good things it has created and promoted in the world are in spite of, not because of, its falsehoods.   
Can a bad tree produce good fruit?

"Where God so wills, the order of nature is changed."   

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Your Pope seems to disagree with his predecessor Pope Leo XIII, among others.
On what issues? Has he come out and spoken ex cathedra against the dogma and doctrines of the Church? Let me know when he has.

If you can't see the irony in a Pope asking for a blessing from someone his magisterium considers a layman belonging to a non-church, I can't help you. 

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As for popes disagreeing, there were disagreements among the Apostles on some theoretical issues, even between the first pope (St. Peter) and the most prominent figure of the Apostolic Age spreading the message of the Gospel and establishing the early Christian Church.(St. Paul)

And we know who was wrong, despite RC spin.
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #108 on: January 28, 2016, 05:50:25 PM »
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That's stupid. 
Calling the RCC a denomination is stupid, I agree.

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The Church is a body of people who confess the true faith.  They are not themselves "the true faith". 
the church is a lot of things including the body of Christ, the bride of Christ, body of believers, etc. It's even referred to as our mother sometimes. And the True Faith.

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  Orthodoxy professes faith in that which was revealed from the Father.  Catholicism professes faith in a white-robed bishop and his bureaucracy. 
At least you don't admit professing  Catholicism.

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"Love your enemies."
If you love them, you would not validate them in their error.

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Protestantism.
Heretics that left the True Faith, not something the RCC gave birth to.

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Ah, so now the faith is different from the people professing it.  How convenient for you. 
You have evil Orthodox as well, does that condemn all of Orthodoxy?

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Where God so wills, the order of nature is changed."   
Ok, God wills it. Deus vult!

But a bad tree still cannot bear good fruit.

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If you can't see the irony in a Pope asking for a blessing from someone his magisterium considers a layman belonging to a non-church, I can't help you. 
What can I say? This pope's a crazy ecumaniac.

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And we know who was wrong, despite RC spin.
Who's "we"?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 05:51:11 PM by Charles Martel »
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #109 on: January 28, 2016, 08:33:54 PM »
Charles, are you really claiming that the "bad trees" of Orthodoxy or of various Protestant denominations have never made anybody's life better with their charitable works? Because I think that's all Mor is saying in that particular instance.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #110 on: January 28, 2016, 11:11:28 PM »
Just about every "born-again" or Evangelical types  I ever met were all former RC's.
Former Evangelical, here. Never been RC. Nice to meet you.

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There are literally more Catholics alone than Moslems, the second biggest religion in the world.
Source?
Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

Offline Sam G

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #111 on: January 28, 2016, 11:12:43 PM »
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What does that even mean?  What do you think "denomination" means and connotes?
Regardless of whatever you think it means, it is not applicable to the RCC.  The Church is not some autonomous branch of the True Faith. The Church IS the True Faith. All  these "denominations" are to me are supposed "christians" who choose not believe this.

Have you studied post Vatican II ecclesiology? i.e. Do you even know what your own church teaches about other Christians?

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Fine.  Roman Catholicism is a heretical form of Christianity which, as it currently exists, is incompatible with true Christianity (i.e., Orthodoxy).
Ah, the gospel according to Mor. Maybe you should preach this to YOUR hiearchy to not be fratenizing or  to publicly show affection to the leader of these so-called "heretics;







You do realize these photos also show the man you believe to be the Vicar of Christ on Earth fraternizing with men you view as heretics? Also, from the perspective of Catholic ecclesiology, the men shown in these pictures are all validly ordained bishops. They may be in schism, but according to Rome their orders are valid. The photo Mor posted showed the pope receiving a blessing from a man the Catholic Church considers a layman.

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It has given birth to many evils in the world
Name one. I know there have been evil  (so-called)Catholics throughout history, but show me where Roman Catholicism is the progenitor of said "evil".

Your church provoked the Reformation due to its own heresies and abuses. Fr. Seraphim Rose (following the Russian philosopher Ivan Kireyevsky) traced the flow of Western thought from the post-schism Western Church to modern secularism. I can link Kireyevsky's main essay on the topic if you wish.

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The good things it has created and promoted in the world are in spite of, not because of, its falsehoods.   
Can a bad tree produce good fruit?

Spiritually? No. I think Mor was referring to the numerous good works performed by institutions associated with the Catholic Church.

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Your Pope seems to disagree with his predecessor Pope Leo XIII, among others.
On what issues? Has he come out and spoken ex cathedra against the dogma and doctrines of the Church? Let me know when he has.

He doesn't have to speak ex cathedra to be a heretic.

As for popes disagreeing, there were disagreements among the Apostles on some theoretical issues, even between the first pope (St. Peter) and the most prominent figure of the Apostolic Age spreading the message of the Gospel and establishing the early Christian Church.(St. Paul)

And how did the Apostles settle these issues? Infallible decree from the mouth of St. Peter?
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

Offline Sam G

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #112 on: January 28, 2016, 11:14:38 PM »
Quote
  Orthodoxy professes faith in that which was revealed from the Father.  Catholicism professes faith in a white-robed bishop and his bureaucracy. 
At least you don't admit professing  Catholicism.

It's a shame you do.
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #113 on: January 28, 2016, 11:16:35 PM »
Quote
  Orthodoxy professes faith in that which was revealed from the Father.  Catholicism professes faith in a white-robed bishop and his bureaucracy. 
At least you don't admit professing  Catholicism.

It's a shame you do.

Make Charles really mad: gay marry me.
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #114 on: January 29, 2016, 07:31:18 PM »
Absolut Divorce is the saddest brand of vodka...
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #115 on: February 01, 2016, 12:32:45 AM »
To be continued ( to steal a latin phrase ) Ad Infinitum.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Absolute Divorce
« Reply #116 on: February 04, 2016, 12:02:24 AM »
I see this whole divorce thing really touches a nerve with guys in the East.

Maybe because there's a perception your on shaky ground on that issue. ;)
No, we're just gagging from Ultramontanists coming to our house to ram their sanctimonious Corban down our throats.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth