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Author Topic: Just got back from attending my first (and possibly last) mass...  (Read 17638 times) Average Rating: 1
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88Devin12
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« on: August 13, 2011, 08:49:53 PM »

So I attended mass today with my brother and his fiance. (with my Priests permission)
I have to say, I was somewhat surprised, and yet, somewhat not.

It was a parish that used the novus ordo, and thus wasn't entirely "traditional". I was shocked to say the least, when the first hymn that was sung, was "Come Let Us Worship", a Protestant praise-worship hymn I grew up with in the Protestant Church.

However, I quickly got some comfort when we were responding with "Lord Have Mercies" and "Peace be with you" "And Also With You"... But most of the hymns seemed to be Protestant in origin.

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i". (I continued in our fashion) Of course, I didn't say "and the son" when it came to the Holy Spirit.

I was most surprised about communion. (which of course, I didn't go up and receive, though my sister-in-law invited me) First of all, it almost seemed like there was an element of an epiclesis there (that is, calling the Holy Spirit down), though you would have to do a little stretching to make the connection.

Also, I was really shocked to see that it was not the Priest that administered communion, but laypeople. The Priest handed the wafers to each communicant, but the laypeople with the chalices were the ones who would administer the cup to the congregants.

But I will give the Roman Catholic Church credit, I am glad they administered BOTH.

Also, I was shocked to see that they had little girls as altar servers. (The parish had just had a Priest that had been caught in sexual misconduct, so this surprised me more)
Apparently the Priests would also let the helpers consume the rest of the cups afterward. (of course, In our Church, it is only the Priest that does this)

Overall, what shocked me the most, was that it was this one girl (I wouldn't have cared about the sex of the person) who led most of the service and the singing. It almost seemed like the Priest(s) (one Priest, one Monsignor) were just there to provide the sacraments.

There was some comfort at times, and other times, there was simple disconnection. I will say that I can see why so many Roman Catholics are so upset by Vatican II.

Not meaning to offend here, but I sympathize with many of our Roman Catholic brethren out there. I hope and pray the Tridentine Mass comes back into common usage for you all.

My first (and probably last) experience with a Roman Catholic Mass was neither really bad, nor really good. There were good things and bad things. But I'll just say that it helped me cherish our Liturgy, and our services even more.
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2011, 08:55:34 PM »

LOL Protestant hymns?

I swear the RCC is a complete mess.
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2011, 09:06:30 PM »

LOL Protestant hymns?

I swear the RCC is a complete mess.

This was the first hymn...
http://youtu.be/ivesRYcIPsQ

I didn't know the others...

Now, like with Amazing Grace, I love that hymn. But it just isn't appropriate for Liturgical Worship.
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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2011, 09:19:02 PM »

But most of the hymns seemed to be Protestant in origin.

Yeah, that's one of the things that really irritates me - they claim they consider us Eastern Catholics to be equal to them.  Yet they will use hymns from every church, no matter how marginally Christian or even non-Christian, except the Eastern Churches!  Angry
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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2011, 09:27:26 PM »

But most of the hymns seemed to be Protestant in origin.

Yeah, that's one of the things that really irritates me - they claim they consider us Eastern Catholics to be equal to them.  Yet they will use hymns from every church, no matter how marginally Christian or even non-Christian, except the Eastern Churches!  Angry

The only Eastern Hymn that I have heard in Roman Catholic Churches is the one we use during Holy Week:
Let all mortal flesh keep silence.
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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2011, 09:29:46 PM »

But most of the hymns seemed to be Protestant in origin.

Yeah, that's one of the things that really irritates me - they claim they consider us Eastern Catholics to be equal to them.  Yet they will use hymns from every church, no matter how marginally Christian or even non-Christian, except the Eastern Churches!  Angry

The only Eastern Hymn that I have heard in Roman Catholic Churches is the one we use during Holy Week:
Let all mortal flesh keep silence.

A lot of Protestant churches use that one too - there are a lot of different musical settings for the text.

It is a beautiful hymn - one of my favorites.  (In fact, not to toot my own horn, but my husband taped me singing it this past Pascha:  http://youtu.be/5jPZSokvOiQ )

But speaking as a former RC, I bet a lot of Massgoers would love to be able to sing some of the beautiful hymns to the Theotokos.
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2011, 09:30:41 PM »

Through the years, I wandered in and out of Roman Catholic churches and Devin's experience was pretty much my own...Especially the bit about a little girl leading the music and etc. It seemed like in every parish there was one 14- or 15-year-old girl who wanted to sing in front of everybody.
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2011, 09:34:44 PM »

Apparently the Priests would also let the helpers consume the rest of the cups afterward. (of course, In our Church, it is only the Priest that does this)

Deacon, if there is one.

This was the first hymn...
http://youtu.be/ivesRYcIPsQ

That's awful.
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2011, 09:50:34 PM »

That's awful.


It would be nice to listen to on the radio. Not so nice to try and sing along to in a church!

But I see it's from the Vineyard churches, so perhaps that explains it.  Grin
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2011, 09:59:05 PM »

Through the years, I wandered in and out of Roman Catholic churches and Devin's experience was pretty much my own...Especially the bit about a little girl leading the music and etc. It seemed like in every parish there was one 14- or 15-year-old girl who wanted to sing in front of everybody.

Does the word "cantor" mean anything to ya?
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2011, 10:02:43 PM »

Through the years, I wandered in and out of Roman Catholic churches and Devin's experience was pretty much my own...Especially the bit about a little girl leading the music and etc. It seemed like in every parish there was one 14- or 15-year-old girl who wanted to sing in front of everybody.

Does the word "cantor" mean anything to ya?

This girl was a little different than a cantor in this parish. It definitely seemed like she was a "worship leader" like in most Protestant Churches. (the local Roman Catholic Parish also has a worship leader)
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2011, 10:04:08 PM »

I always found the use of Protestant hymns very irritating. Anything by Marty Haugen also gave me the creeps. Whatever happened to Gregorian chant? It's not that hard to learn, and you can use the vernacular these days.
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2011, 10:14:08 PM »

Through the years, I wandered in and out of Roman Catholic churches and Devin's experience was pretty much my own...Especially the bit about a little girl leading the music and etc. It seemed like in every parish there was one 14- or 15-year-old girl who wanted to sing in front of everybody.

Does the word "cantor" mean anything to ya?

This girl was a little different than a cantor in this parish. It definitely seemed like she was a "worship leader" like in most Protestant Churches. (the local Roman Catholic Parish also has a worship leader)

I must say from the descriptions here, some of you really do no know the Latin rite liturgy enough to pontificate. 

I don't care if you don't like the music but you really ought to know more before you speak.
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« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2011, 10:32:54 PM »

But most of the hymns seemed to be Protestant in origin.

Yeah, that's one of the things that really irritates me - they claim they consider us Eastern Catholics to be equal to them.  Yet they will use hymns from every church, no matter how marginally Christian or even non-Christian, except the Eastern Churches!  Angry
Interesting, I never noticed that..
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« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2011, 10:39:09 PM »



It was a parish that used the novus ordo, and thus wasn't entirely "traditional". I was shocked to say the least, when the first hymn that was sung, was "Come Let Us Worship", a Protestant praise-worship hymn I grew up with in the Protestant Church.


There was some comfort at times, and other times, there was simple disconnection. I will say that I can see why so many Roman Catholics are so upset by Vatican II.

Pope Paul VI employed 6 Protestants who served as "advisors" in the creation of the Novus Ordo Mass.  These 6 were German from the University of Tuebingen.  The point of creating the Novus Ordo was so that (I'm paraphrasing) Catholics and Protestants would have common prayers and no longer be divided from each other with different prayer traditions which, of course, has only muddied the waters of traditional Catholicism and "traditional" Protestantism even more.  Is it a wonder then that today many of the youth are wanting, even craving, for the priests and hierarchies to ditch the Protestant Novus Ordo and return to the Tridentine (i.e. Extraordinary) Rite?
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« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2011, 10:51:31 PM »

Through the years, I wandered in and out of Roman Catholic churches and Devin's experience was pretty much my own...Especially the bit about a little girl leading the music and etc. It seemed like in every parish there was one 14- or 15-year-old girl who wanted to sing in front of everybody.

Does the word "cantor" mean anything to ya?

This girl was a little different than a cantor in this parish. It definitely seemed like she was a "worship leader" like in most Protestant Churches. (the local Roman Catholic Parish also has a worship leader)

I must say from the descriptions here, some of you really do no know the Latin rite liturgy enough to pontificate. 

I don't care if you don't like the music but you really ought to know more before you speak.

I'm sorry my friend, but if you can't see the similarities that worship has with Protestant Churches, then I don't know what to tell you.

There is a big difference between what she was doing and what cantors do.
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« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2011, 10:55:25 PM »

Through the years, I wandered in and out of Roman Catholic churches and Devin's experience was pretty much my own...Especially the bit about a little girl leading the music and etc. It seemed like in every parish there was one 14- or 15-year-old girl who wanted to sing in front of everybody.

Does the word "cantor" mean anything to ya?

This girl was a little different than a cantor in this parish. It definitely seemed like she was a "worship leader" like in most Protestant Churches. (the local Roman Catholic Parish also has a worship leader)

I must say from the descriptions here, some of you really do no know the Latin rite liturgy enough to pontificate. 

I don't care if you don't like the music but you really ought to know more before you speak.

I'm sorry my friend, but if you can't see the similarities that worship has with Protestant Churches, then I don't know what to tell you.

There is a big difference between what she was doing and what cantors do.

What was she doing?
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2011, 10:58:18 PM »

It was a parish that used the novus ordo, and thus wasn't entirely "traditional". I was shocked to say the least, when the first hymn that was sung, was "Come Let Us Worship", a Protestant praise-worship hymn I grew up with in the Protestant Church.

Wow, at first I thought you meant "defte proskynisomen". That was not cool.
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2011, 11:05:57 PM »

I was most surprised about communion. (which of course, I didn't go up and receive, though my sister-in-law invited me)

She invited someone who is non-confirmed to receive communion?

But yeah, the RCC is a total mess, it's lost any grandeur it had after V2.
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2011, 11:18:18 PM »

Through the years, I wandered in and out of Roman Catholic churches and Devin's experience was pretty much my own...Especially the bit about a little girl leading the music and etc. It seemed like in every parish there was one 14- or 15-year-old girl who wanted to sing in front of everybody.

Does the word "cantor" mean anything to ya?

This girl was a little different than a cantor in this parish. It definitely seemed like she was a "worship leader" like in most Protestant Churches. (the local Roman Catholic Parish also has a worship leader)

I must say from the descriptions here, some of you really do no know the Latin rite liturgy enough to pontificate. 

I don't care if you don't like the music but you really ought to know more before you speak.

I'm sorry my friend, but if you can't see the similarities that worship has with Protestant Churches, then I don't know what to tell you.

There is a big difference between what she was doing and what cantors do.

What was she doing?

She would stand at the pulpit/stand thing... Say, turn your hymnals to such-and-such page to this song... Then everyone would start singing (though she was mainly leading the singing)...

The only ones that really did any chanting were the Priests. What she was doing was identical to what Protestant "worship leaders" do today. (In my parents church it is the minister, but still almost the same)

I was most surprised about communion. (which of course, I didn't go up and receive, though my sister-in-law invited me)

She invited someone who is non-confirmed to receive communion?

But yeah, the RCC is a total mess, it's lost any grandeur it had after V2.

She knows I'm Orthodox (though at one point she called it "Catholic Orthodox") and after I said no, she said "see, he knows the rules". So it's not a reflection on any Roman Catholic teaching or anything.
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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2011, 11:27:22 PM »

Through the years, I wandered in and out of Roman Catholic churches and Devin's experience was pretty much my own...Especially the bit about a little girl leading the music and etc. It seemed like in every parish there was one 14- or 15-year-old girl who wanted to sing in front of everybody.

Does the word "cantor" mean anything to ya?

This girl was a little different than a cantor in this parish. It definitely seemed like she was a "worship leader" like in most Protestant Churches. (the local Roman Catholic Parish also has a worship leader)

I must say from the descriptions here, some of you really do no know the Latin rite liturgy enough to pontificate. 

I don't care if you don't like the music but you really ought to know more before you speak.

I'm sorry my friend, but if you can't see the similarities that worship has with Protestant Churches, then I don't know what to tell you.

There is a big difference between what she was doing and what cantors do.

What was she doing?

She would stand at the pulpit/stand thing... Say, turn your hymnals to such-and-such page to this song... Then everyone would start singing (though she was mainly leading the singing)...


That makes her a cantor.

Do you know the names of the parts of the mass where she led the singing?...

Do you know the structure of the normative Roman liturgy?
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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2011, 11:45:09 PM »

Through the years, I wandered in and out of Roman Catholic churches and Devin's experience was pretty much my own...Especially the bit about a little girl leading the music and etc. It seemed like in every parish there was one 14- or 15-year-old girl who wanted to sing in front of everybody.

Does the word "cantor" mean anything to ya?

This girl was a little different than a cantor in this parish. It definitely seemed like she was a "worship leader" like in most Protestant Churches. (the local Roman Catholic Parish also has a worship leader)

I must say from the descriptions here, some of you really do no know the Latin rite liturgy enough to pontificate.  

I don't care if you don't like the music but you really ought to know more before you speak.

I'm sorry my friend, but if you can't see the similarities that worship has with Protestant Churches, then I don't know what to tell you.

There is a big difference between what she was doing and what cantors do.

What was she doing?

She would stand at the pulpit/stand thing... Say, turn your hymnals to such-and-such page to this song... Then everyone would start singing (though she was mainly leading the singing)...


That makes her a cantor.

Do you know the names of the parts of the mass where she led the singing?...

Do you know the structure of the normative Roman liturgy?

Coming from the Orthodox perspective, she most certainly isn't a cantor... lol

All I know is they are hymns that apparently weren't structured in. (that is, unlike hymns in Orthodox worship)

Also, yes, I did some reading, and she technically fulfills the role of a "cantor" according to the Roman Catholic Church. But pardon me for being closed-minded, but if she isn't serving the role according to the Orthodox tradition, then she isn't a cantor.
But yes, technically she could be considered a "cantor", at least as defined by the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2011, 11:51:50 PM »

The RCC will use songs as hymns that aren't from *any* church.

The Midwestern suburban RCC parish I grew up at used "Let there be peace on earth" as the closing hymn at *every* mass (aside from special holy days) for something like 20 years. No, I'm not joking. And when there was a change in priests and the song was used only occasionally, that nearly caused my mother to revolt. Not the previous priest who had sexual relations with a woman, but the tinkering with "her song." I'm not kidding.

"Let there be peace on earth" is pablum! And it was so pounded into my brain that I can't forget it, even though it's been something like 25 years since I last heard it.

http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/l/lettherebepeaceonearth.shtml

"City of God":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7_PFBH0hcM

"On Eagle's Wings" and "Here, I am" - gah. Tongue
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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2011, 12:08:33 AM »

So you went to Mass at a Roman Catholic Church, and were surprised when it was different from an Orthodox Liturgy.

Anyone else see the problem here?  Huh  Roll Eyes

Frankly, I think you are being quite rude and arrogant to sit here and make comparisons between the two. Rome is fully aware of what her Liturgy is like. The topic of Eucharistic Ministers, changes in Liturgical music within the Catholic Church, the use of female Altar Servers, and everything else you detailed has been discussed at length and pulled apart on this board already.

What do you have to offer that is *new* to the discussion, besides snubbing your nose at the low-mass style that this particular Catholic parish chooses to celebrate the Eucharist with?
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« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2011, 12:34:01 AM »

So you went to Mass at a Roman Catholic Church, and were surprised when it was different from an Orthodox Liturgy.

Anyone else see the problem here?  Huh  Roll Eyes

Frankly, I think you are being quite rude and arrogant to sit here and make comparisons between the two. Rome is fully aware of what her Liturgy is like. The topic of Eucharistic Ministers, changes in Liturgical music within the Catholic Church, the use of female Altar Servers, and everything else you detailed has been discussed at length and pulled apart on this board already.

What do you have to offer that is *new* to the discussion, besides snubbing your nose at the low-mass style that this particular Catholic parish chooses to celebrate the Eucharist with?
His post was just in keeping with the spirit of this forum.
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« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2011, 01:06:09 AM »

So you went to Mass at a Roman Catholic Church, and were surprised when it was different from an Orthodox Liturgy.

Anyone else see the problem here?  Huh  Roll Eyes

Frankly, I think you are being quite rude and arrogant to sit here and make comparisons between the two. Rome is fully aware of what her Liturgy is like. The topic of Eucharistic Ministers, changes in Liturgical music within the Catholic Church, the use of female Altar Servers, and everything else you detailed has been discussed at length and pulled apart on this board already.

What do you have to offer that is *new* to the discussion, besides snubbing your nose at the low-mass style that this particular Catholic parish chooses to celebrate the Eucharist with?
His post was just in keeping with the spirit of this forum.

No kidding. It tires.

Recently I've heard of a lot about nonsense in many Orthodox parishes.

Is it because of the "P" word? Who knows?

I'll hold the Vatican's feet to flame over their ridiculous handling of the sexual abuse thing like no other and I think Thomism was dead on arival, but the repeated complaining about some anecdotal evidence that RCC is Protestant or becoming so, which evidently the OP was, as if both were from Satan's mouth, grows stale and old.

Every American here should thank God for the selfless-work of generations of RC women in their country.

More interesting on an ORTHODOX board would be an honest and critical look at liturgical problems in your own backyard, not those you think lie in others.

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« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2011, 01:12:10 AM »

So you went to Mass at a Roman Catholic Church, and were surprised when it was different from an Orthodox Liturgy.

Anyone else see the problem here?  Huh  Roll Eyes

Frankly, I think you are being quite rude and arrogant to sit here and make comparisons between the two. Rome is fully aware of what her Liturgy is like. The topic of Eucharistic Ministers, changes in Liturgical music within the Catholic Church, the use of female Altar Servers, and everything else you detailed has been discussed at length and pulled apart on this board already.

What do you have to offer that is *new* to the discussion, besides snubbing your nose at the low-mass style that this particular Catholic parish chooses to celebrate the Eucharist with?
His post was just in keeping with the spirit of this forum.

No kidding. It tires.

Recently I've heard of a lot about nonsense in many Orthodox parishes.

Is it because of the "P" word? Who knows?

I'll hold the Vatican's feet to flame over their ridiculous handling of the sexual abuse thing like no other and I think Thomism was dead on arival, but the repeated complaining about some anecdotal evidence that RCC is Protestant or becoming so, which evidently the OP was, as if both were from Satan's mouth, grows stale and old.

Every American here should thank God for the selfless-work of generations of RC women in their country.

More interesting on an ORTHODOX board would be an honest and critical look at liturgical problems in your own backyard, not those you think lie in others.

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I have met many selfless men and women in BOTH the Catholic Church and in the Orthodox Church.
In fact, the number of dedicated men in the Orthodox Church astounds me. There seems to be something that attracts men to Orthodox ministry. We have a lot of dedicated choir members, chanters, readers, subdeacons, and deacons in our parishes.
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« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2011, 01:16:15 AM »

That makes her a cantor.

Hmm, I'm a cantor at my Byzantine Catholic parish but there is a lot more to being a cantor than just standing in front of the church and telling people what page in the hymnal to turn to.
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« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2011, 01:30:39 AM »

That makes her a cantor.

Hmm, I'm a cantor at my Byzantine Catholic parish but there is a lot more to being a cantor than just standing in front of the church and telling people what page in the hymnal to turn to.

Exactly. Having served at the chanter's stand, I understand the responsibilities involved.
Finding the correct hymns in the multitude of books we use.
Knowing which of the eight Byzantine tones to use and then correctly intoning it, which can be tricky.
Helping other chanters by correctly singing the Ison.
Having your fingers in three places at the same time, and hoping the holy cards do not slip.
Being prepared to jump in when another chanter loses his/her voice.
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« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2011, 01:37:12 AM »

I've seen footage of the Tridentine Mass and so I went in expecting something dumbed down from a Tridentine/Orthodox style service, what I witnessed was a little more stripped down than I expected, though not as bad as "clown and puppet masses".

Yes, I went in with expectations and was looking for similarities with the East and with higher forms of worship...

Also, Handmaiden, this discussion is entirely relevant or rather, my observations are... I'm sorry, but the only true, real substantive form of worship is the Liturgical form found in Orthodox worship. Everything else has just reached a point where it is basic and unfulfilling...

I wanted to see the Novus Ordo for myself. And I'm sorry, but I did find it lacking. Though I went Because I wanted to understand what Roman Catholics experience on the basis of worship.

I wanted to see if I could encourage my brother to join and be confident that he would be spiritually filled there. (he needs a church that can do that, I'd love for him to be Orthodox, but I doubt that'd happen)

Now I can also help people if they ask what our church is like... Because the comparison with Catholics is always brought up.
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« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2011, 01:39:31 AM »

I was recently present at the RC confirmation and the subsequent First Communion of a nephew of mine. I attended as a very close member of the family should, of course (when in Rome ...). Especially with the confirmation, where the local RC bishop officiated, but, even at the mass where the little ones first received, I am grieved to say that there was precious little solemnity/gravitas in either service. The kiddies were even led into the space behind the church altar. Not good.  Sad  And the bishop's address was, to put it bluntly, populist pap. So, so sad.
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« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2011, 01:41:42 AM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.
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« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2011, 01:51:24 AM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.
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« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2011, 01:51:50 AM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Nothing can compare with an Orthodox Divine Liturgy where we join the Feast of the Lamb in Heaven.

I was a cradle Catholic before converting to Orthodoxy. My parents and siblings had left Catholicism ten years earlier. A lot of my Catholic friends agreed with me that the sacredness was now gone with the implementation of the Novus Ordo, and that indeed the smoke of Satan had entered the church. Then Cardinal Mahoney gave his blessing to print books for teens and young adults that actually condoned premarital sex. My Byzantine Catholic Priest burned one of those books. It was all too much. Orthodoxy rejuvenated my faith and saved me.
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« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2011, 01:58:25 AM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.

Don't burst his pink bubble.

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« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2011, 02:04:35 AM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.

Don't you think I know about the changes that have been made thus far? St James to St Basil, St Basil to St John Chrysostom, St John Chrysostom to today... While things have been added and taken away, it would still be recognizable to the earliest Christians and still keeps everything intact... We've never gutted and neutered our service down to the bare bones.
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« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2011, 02:09:27 AM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.

Don't you think I know about the changes that have been made thus far? St James to St Basil, St Basil to St John Chrysostom, St John Chrysostom to today... While things have been added and taken away, it would still be recognizable to the earliest Christians and still keeps everything intact... We've never gutted and neutered our service down to the bare bones.

Yeah it hasn't changed but it has, we get it.

Your triumphalism rings hollow.

lulz @ your bolded statement.

You realize we have heard that before?
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« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2011, 02:17:14 AM »

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i".
That's the original way to do it, and how it's done in many EO Churches (and all in the Old World I think).
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« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2011, 02:21:45 AM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.

Don't you think I know about the changes that have been made thus far? St James to St Basil, St Basil to St John Chrysostom, St John Chrysostom to today... While things have been added and taken away, it would still be recognizable to the earliest Christians and still keeps everything intact... We've never gutted and neutered our service down to the bare bones.

Yeah it hasn't changed but it has, we get it.

Your triumphalism rings hollow.

lulz @ your bolded statement.

You realize we have heard that before?
Are you denying that the palms used when Christ entered Jerusalem were made of gold, bore Imperial double-eagles, and swung in a liturgical fashion?

...you dirty evangelical, you. Stop trying to change the faith with your logic, archaeology and textual criticism.
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« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2011, 02:22:21 AM »

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i".
That's the original way to do it, and how it's done in many EO Churches (and all in the Old World I think).

ssssshhhhhhh.
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« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2011, 02:23:10 AM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.

Don't you think I know about the changes that have been made thus far? St James to St Basil, St Basil to St John Chrysostom, St John Chrysostom to today... While things have been added and taken away, it would still be recognizable to the earliest Christians and still keeps everything intact... We've never gutted and neutered our service down to the bare bones.

Actually, have you ever compared the Novus Ordo to the Protestant Lutheran Liturgy of 1904?

I used to have a copy of the Lutheran Hymnal (1904), but my Catholic Confessor at that time, who was biritual, noticed how the Novus Ordo was copied (plagiarized?) from it almost word for word, so he tore that book and tossed it into the trash. He never celebrated another Novus Ordo from that day forward.
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« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2011, 02:24:24 AM »

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i".
That's the original way to do it, and how it's done in many EO Churches (and all in the Old World I think).

I have never heard it recited in an EO church with the "we."
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« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2011, 02:24:59 AM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.

Don't you think I know about the changes that have been made thus far? St James to St Basil, St Basil to St John Chrysostom, St John Chrysostom to today... While things have been added and taken away, it would still be recognizable to the earliest Christians and still keeps everything intact... We've never gutted and neutered our service down to the bare bones.

Yeah it hasn't changed but it has, we get it.

Your triumphalism rings hollow.

lulz @ your bolded statement.

You realize we have heard that before?
Are you denying that the palms used when Christ entered Jerusalem were NOT made of gold and swung in a liturgical fashion?

...you dirty evangelical, you.

Palms? I think it is funny many Orthodox don't know "palm" is actually Greek for "pussy willow".

At my parish they do actually use "palm" leaves as we understand the word in contemporary English. But it's OCA, so what do they know about real Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2011, 02:27:33 AM »

And orthonorm, im sorry, but I guess you just don't understand that the Orthodox Church cannot, will not, and has not changed to match the "times" and the shoes of other faiths... Our worship will always and forever remain the same, and our faith and teachings will always remain the same.

Right. That's why liturgy is four hours long.

Don't you think I know about the changes that have been made thus far? St James to St Basil, St Basil to St John Chrysostom, St John Chrysostom to today... While things have been added and taken away, it would still be recognizable to the earliest Christians and still keeps everything intact... We've never gutted and neutered our service down to the bare bones.

Yeah it hasn't changed but it has, we get it.

Your triumphalism rings hollow.

lulz @ your bolded statement.

You realize we have heard that before?
Are you denying that the palms used when Christ entered Jerusalem were NOT made of gold and swung in a liturgical fashion?

...you dirty evangelical, you.

Palms? I think it is funny many Orthodox don't know "palm" is actually Greek for "pussy willow".

At my parish they do actually use "palm" leaves as we understand the word in contemporary English. But it's OCA, so what do they know about real Orthodoxy.
Blasphemy. You defy Isaiah and the Righteous King James.

"And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the PALM of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."
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« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2011, 02:28:30 AM »

We also recited the Creed. I was surprised that they were using "we" instead of "i".
That's the original way to do it, and how it's done in many EO Churches (and all in the Old World I think).

I have never heard it recited in an EO church with the "we."

Because you are a little young.

But nothing ever changes. Certainly not in virtue of the Latin usage.
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