Author Topic: Men - a discourse analysis rant  (Read 5088 times)

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Offline Maria

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Men - a discourse analysis rant
« on: August 12, 2011, 11:17:09 PM »
Okay, this is a topic from linguistics: discourse analysis.

According to studies in discourse analysis, men and women do differ in their conversational styles.

Women seem to apologize more than men for things that do not require an apology.

Men feel the need to answer each and every declarative statement uttered by women.

Sue: The sunset is glorious tonight.

Joe: Why are you asking me to look? It is just a sunset.

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2011, 11:21:03 PM »
Okay, this is a topic from linguistics: discourse analysis.

According to studies in discourse analysis, men and women do differ in their conversational styles.

Women seem to apologize more than men for things that do not require an apology.

Men feel the need to answer each and every declarative statement uttered by women.

Sue: The sunset is glorious tonight.

Joe: Why are you asking me to look? It is just a sunset.



This will all be addressed by me soon. And no you don't have to say your sorry for being impatient.
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Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2011, 11:22:49 PM »
 :D

From what I've read in feminist publications, I really do agree that women apologize much more than men. I even apologize for things that are not my fault -- if another man bumps into me and says something rude, I will say, "Sorry."

I took a rape defense class at the university. One of my friends would say "Sorry," every time she hit the police officer (we were outfitted with gear and were able, therefore, to hit as hard as we wanted to).

He even had her on the floor, and after she flipped him over, she apologized. The instructor pulled her over and gave her the biggest tongue lashing ever. It only worked for the time we were in the class, because my friend still does that today. I think it's sad -- she's not a weakling in any way, but she's apologizing for injuring a man who was supposed to be raping her?


(Meanwhile, the police officer told me that I was one of the best trash talkers he had seen. I think he was trying to make me feel better for nearly passing out after he twisted my mask on my face.)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 11:24:17 PM by IsmiLiora »
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 11:23:35 PM »
True story:

Wife: Dear, just look at the full moon tonight - how beautiful and romantic!

Husband: Indeed - it looks just like a round of my favourite cheese.

These two, my parents, had been married close to forty years at the time.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Kasatkin fan

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 11:27:31 PM »
I remember discussing this subject in my Intro to Communications class back in University.

When a woman is talking about a problem she's having she generally just wants someone to listen.

When a man is talking about a problem he's having he generally wants advice.

The two sexes tend to react to each other as they would like to be reacted to, causing lots of lovely problems.

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2011, 11:29:39 PM »
Women seem to apologize more than men for things that do not require an apology.

That is just women fulfilling their role in life (ie. to keep the world running long enough to make it to the next generation).

Men feel the need to answer each and every declarative statement uttered by women.

Not just women, men need to answer men as well. Is why I don't like male therapists. Females provide a therapeutic context in which to explore your problems and cooperatively figure out how to resolve them; men like to listen to your problems and then lecture you like you're a 10 year old regarding how you can fix things.

Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2011, 11:32:43 PM »
Okay, this is a topic from linguistics: discourse analysis.

According to studies in discourse analysis, men and women do differ in their conversational styles.

Women seem to apologize more than men for things that do not require an apology.

Men feel the need to answer each and every declarative statement uttered by women.

Sue: The sunset is glorious tonight.

Joe: Why are you asking me to look? It is just a sunset.



This will all be addressed by me soon. And no you don't have to say your sorry for being impatient.

Sounds like a typical male response.
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Offline Kasatkin fan

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2011, 11:34:55 PM »
Okay, this is a topic from linguistics: discourse analysis.

According to studies in discourse analysis, men and women do differ in their conversational styles.

Women seem to apologize more than men for things that do not require an apology.

Men feel the need to answer each and every declarative statement uttered by women.

Sue: The sunset is glorious tonight.

Joe: Why are you asking me to look? It is just a sunset.



This will all be addressed by me soon. And no you don't have to say your sorry for being impatient.

Sounds like a typical male response.
No, this is a typical male response.

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2011, 11:36:33 PM »
Okay, this is a topic from linguistics: discourse analysis.

According to studies in discourse analysis, men and women do differ in their conversational styles.

Women seem to apologize more than men for things that do not require an apology.

Men feel the need to answer each and every declarative statement uttered by women.

Sue: The sunset is glorious tonight.

Joe: Why are you asking me to look? It is just a sunset.



This will all be addressed by me soon. And no you don't have to say your sorry for being impatient.

Sounds like a typical male response.
No, this is a typical male response.

No, this is a typical male response. And by that I mean my response to your response to Maria's response to orthonorm's responnse to Marias post. Typical guy, always thinking he can figure everything out.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2011, 11:38:26 PM »
Sue: The sunset is glorious tonight.

Joe: Why are you asking me to look? It is just a sunset.



Sue and I have alot in common.

a/s/l?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 11:38:38 PM by Aposphet »
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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2011, 11:39:39 PM »
:D

From what I've read in feminist publications, I really do agree that women apologize much more than men. I even apologize for things that are not my fault -- if another man bumps into me and says something rude, I will say, "Sorry."

I took a rape defense class at the university. One of my friends would say "Sorry," every time she hit the police officer (we were outfitted with gear and were able, therefore, to hit as hard as we wanted to).

He even had her on the floor, and after she flipped him over, she apologized. The instructor pulled her over and gave her the biggest tongue lashing ever. It only worked for the time we were in the class, because my friend still does that today. I think it's sad -- she's not a weakling in any way, but she's apologizing for injuring a man who was supposed to be raping her?


(Meanwhile, the police officer told me that I was one of the best trash talkers he had seen. I think he was trying to make me feel better for nearly passing out after he twisted my mask on my face.)

 ::)

Oops.  I say SORRY all the time!  For every little thing.  What's funny, is that I actually mean it, each time.

 ::)

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Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2011, 11:41:35 PM »
I mean it, too. But I keep thinking, "Why am I saying sorry when it is this person's fault? And to top it all off, they are being rude."
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2011, 11:42:02 PM »
Women seem to apologize more than men for things that do not require an apology.

That is just women fulfilling their role in life (ie. to keep the world running long enough to make it to the next generation).

Men feel the need to answer each and every declarative statement uttered by women.

Not just women, men need to answer men as well. Is why I don't like male therapists. Females provide a therapeutic context in which to explore your problems and cooperatively figure out how to resolve them; men like to listen to your problems and then lecture you like you're a 10 year old regarding how you can fix things.

I have encountered some women who like to lecture people, especially some of the professors at my university.
On the contrary, many male professors and priests are excellent listeners who encourage you to think outside of the box.
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2011, 11:43:42 PM »
Women seem to apologize more than men for things that do not require an apology.

That is just women fulfilling their role in life (ie. to keep the world running long enough to make it to the next generation).

Men feel the need to answer each and every declarative statement uttered by women.

Not just women, men need to answer men as well. Is why I don't like male therapists. Females provide a therapeutic context in which to explore your problems and cooperatively figure out how to resolve them; men like to listen to your problems and then lecture you like you're a 10 year old regarding how you can fix things.

I have encountered some women who like to lecture people, especially some of the professors at my university.
On the contrary, many male professors and priests are excellent listeners who encourage you to think outside of the box.

These are not exceptions that prove the rule, but they are exceptions.  :)

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2011, 12:16:20 AM »
Actually they are exceptions that prove the rule, in the original sense of the phrase (that being that it is an exception that tests the rule, because at the time if you said something "proved" x it tested x).
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Offline KBN1

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2011, 01:53:35 AM »
Anyone want to go to the garage and look at stuff?

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2011, 05:30:52 AM »
Anyone want to go to the garage and look at stuff?

ROFL!!!!!

Masterfully Played!!!!!
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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2011, 05:41:46 AM »
Okay, this is a topic from linguistics: discourse analysis.

According to studies in discourse analysis, men and women do differ in their conversational styles.

Women seem to apologize more than men for things that do not require an apology.

Men feel the need to answer each and every declarative statement uttered by women.

Sue: The sunset is glorious tonight.

Joe: Why are you asking me to look? It is just a sunset.



I think those two things are bang on true for most women but there are allot of women who think logically and process information more differently than most women. I can think of two men i know who would have said that sunset comment haha...

Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2011, 12:41:02 PM »
Okay, this is a topic from linguistics: discourse analysis.

According to studies in discourse analysis, men and women do differ in their conversational styles.

Women seem to apologize more than men for things that do not require an apology.

Men feel the need to answer each and every declarative statement uttered by women.

Sue: The sunset is glorious tonight.

Joe: Why are you asking me to look? It is just a sunset.



I think those two things are bang on true for most women but there are allot of women who think logically and process information more differently than most women. I can think of two men i know who would have said that sunset comment haha...

I agree.

As a child, I loved to listen to that folk song: There's a hole in the bucket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD-ffhvefsw

There's a hole in the bucket, dear Lysa, dear Lysa
There's a hole in the bucket, dear Lysa, a hole.

Here is another rendition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAfCQ-t7xY0
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 12:43:44 PM by Maria »
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Offline KBN1

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2011, 01:00:54 PM »
Anyone want to go to the garage and look at stuff?

ROFL!!!!!

Masterfully Played!!!!!

 ;D

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2011, 02:14:20 PM »
Actually they are exceptions that prove the rule, in the original sense of the phrase (that being that it is an exception that tests the rule, because at the time if you said something "proved" x it tested x).


Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2011, 09:25:32 PM »
For a professional linguist's opinion of these findings, check this out:

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2698

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2011, 09:35:04 PM »
Anyone want to go to the garage and look at stuff?
Nah.

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Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2011, 09:45:20 PM »
For a professional linguist's opinion of these findings, check this out:

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2698

Thank you for linking this blog. It is very interesting.

I found this to be extremely interesting.

Quote
According to Schumann & Ross . . . In their data, at least, there's no sex difference in willingness to see oneself as being in the wrong, or in willingness to admit error, or in propensity to apologize given a perceived offense. Rather, (Waterloo undergraduate) women are somewhat more likely than (Waterloo undergraduate) men to perceive a given piece of behavior as offensive, and also are likely to perceive the degree of offense as somewhat greater, whether they're the transgressor or the victim. As a result, the women in their sample were somewhat more likely to see a given behavior — their own or someone else's — as a transgression requiring apology.

Schumann and Ross speculate sensibly about the reasons for this difference:

What is the psychological basis of gender differences in perceptions of the severity and frequency of offenses? One possibility is that women might perceive more offenses because they are more focused on the experiences of other people and on maintaining harmony in their relationships […] A second possibility is that men have a higher threshold for both physical and social pain.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 09:50:02 PM by Maria »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2011, 09:52:50 PM »
I like that. I wouldn't be surprised if "women are more focused on the experiences of other people" is the "feminine" explanation (empathy for others is good, so if women apologize more because they are more empathetic then that reflects well on women), while "men have a higher threshold for physical and social pain" is the "masculine" explanation (courage in the face of pain is good, so if men apologize less because they tolerate pain more then that reflects well on men). Maybe they should ask samples of male and female psychologists what they think the explanation is and see if the alternate explanations are correlated with sex. :)

Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2011, 01:01:30 AM »
I like that. I wouldn't be surprised if "women are more focused on the experiences of other people" is the "feminine" explanation (empathy for others is good, so if women apologize more because they are more empathetic then that reflects well on women), while "men have a higher threshold for physical and social pain" is the "masculine" explanation (courage in the face of pain is good, so if men apologize less because they tolerate pain more then that reflects well on men). Maybe they should ask samples of male and female psychologists what they think the explanation is and see if the alternate explanations are correlated with sex. :)

Men tolerate pain more than women?

I am not so sure.

How many men would tolerate the pains of childbirth without begging for drugs?
I gave birth to my son without any drugs whatsoever. My husband was amazed.
I also routinely use no drugs whatsoever whenever I have to have a dental procedure.
Do I have a high tolerance for pain? I do not think so, but I have learned to pray.

Nevertheless, when my husband had to undergo two surgeries recently, doctors and nurses were amazed that he did not demand drugs as do so many other men. He did not press the pump immediately as they recommended but waited. He found that he did not need the high doses that they recommended. In fact, as my husband was being wheeled into surgery this May 2011, he told the doctor to use the minimum possible, while a guy in the bed beside him was asking for anything that could numb him ... the more the merrier.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2011, 05:05:08 AM »
I like that. I wouldn't be surprised if "women are more focused on the experiences of other people" is the "feminine" explanation (empathy for others is good, so if women apologize more because they are more empathetic then that reflects well on women), while "men have a higher threshold for physical and social pain" is the "masculine" explanation (courage in the face of pain is good, so if men apologize less because they tolerate pain more then that reflects well on men). Maybe they should ask samples of male and female psychologists what they think the explanation is and see if the alternate explanations are correlated with sex. :)

Men tolerate pain more than women?

I am not so sure.

How many men would tolerate the pains of childbirth without begging for drugs?
I gave birth to my son without any drugs whatsoever. My husband was amazed.
I also routinely use no drugs whatsoever whenever I have to have a dental procedure.
Do I have a high tolerance for pain? I do not think so, but I have learned to pray.

Nevertheless, when my husband had to undergo two surgeries recently, doctors and nurses were amazed that he did not demand drugs as do so many other men. He did not press the pump immediately as they recommended but waited. He found that he did not need the high doses that they recommended. In fact, as my husband was being wheeled into surgery this May 2011, he told the doctor to use the minimum possible, while a guy in the bed beside him was asking for anything that could numb him ... the more the merrier.

You can't disprove the generalization that men tolerate pain more than women by the singular examples of yourself and your husband. Sounds to me like you're just upset that there may be a reason for men apologizing less that reflects well on men rather than women. ;)

Offline KBN1

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2011, 08:33:56 AM »
http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/guide/chronic-pain-conditions
Quote
Research in this area is yielding fascinating results. For example, male experimental animals injected with estrogen, a female sex hormone, appear to have a lower tolerance for pain-that is, the addition of estrogen appears to lower the pain threshold. Similarly, the presence of testosterone, a male hormone, appears to elevate tolerance for pain in female mice: the animals are simply able to withstand pain better. Female mice deprived of estrogen during experiments react to stress similarly to male animals. Estrogen, therefore, may act as a sort of pain switch, turning on the ability to recognize pain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4641567.stm
Quote
Lead researcher Dr Ed Keogh, a psychologist at the Pain Management Unit at the university, said: "Our research has shown that whilst the sensory-focused strategies used by men helped increase their pain threshold and tolerance of pain, it was unlikely to have any benefit for women.

"Women who concentrate on the emotional aspects of their pain may actually experience more pain as a result, possibly because the emotions associated with pain are negative."

He told the journal Pain how mounting evidence suggested that "women experience a greater number of pain episodes across their lifespan than men, in more bodily areas and with greater frequency."

Dr Beverly Collette, from the British Pain Society, said: "This supports previous experimental work.

"Women tend to report to pain at lower thresholds than men. We know that we have far more women attending pain clinics than men too.

Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2011, 05:28:54 PM »
I like that. I wouldn't be surprised if "women are more focused on the experiences of other people" is the "feminine" explanation (empathy for others is good, so if women apologize more because they are more empathetic then that reflects well on women), while "men have a higher threshold for physical and social pain" is the "masculine" explanation (courage in the face of pain is good, so if men apologize less because they tolerate pain more then that reflects well on men). Maybe they should ask samples of male and female psychologists what they think the explanation is and see if the alternate explanations are correlated with sex. :)

Men tolerate pain more than women?

I am not so sure.

How many men would tolerate the pains of childbirth without begging for drugs?
I gave birth to my son without any drugs whatsoever. My husband was amazed.
I also routinely use no drugs whatsoever whenever I have to have a dental procedure.
Do I have a high tolerance for pain? I do not think so, but I have learned to pray.

Nevertheless, when my husband had to undergo two surgeries recently, doctors and nurses were amazed that he did not demand drugs as do so many other men. He did not press the pump immediately as they recommended but waited. He found that he did not need the high doses that they recommended. In fact, as my husband was being wheeled into surgery this May 2011, he told the doctor to use the minimum possible, while a guy in the bed beside him was asking for anything that could numb him ... the more the merrier.

You can't disprove the generalization that men tolerate pain more than women by the singular examples of yourself and your husband. Sounds to me like you're just upset that there may be a reason for men apologizing less that reflects well on men rather than women. ;)

On the contrary, I am not upset.
I think that men apologize less because they just do not see how their behavior can offend.
I think that women are more sensitive in certain areas.

However, I have met some men who are extremely sensitive and do not like or seek constructive criticism.
They crumble whenever someone seems to criticize them or their art work.
And these men are NOT homosexuals. They are married heterosexuals.

We are all individuals and whenever psychologists try to stereotype men or women according to gender roles, there will always be exceptions to those stereotypic rules.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 05:33:14 PM by Maria »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2011, 05:34:45 PM »
I like that. I wouldn't be surprised if "women are more focused on the experiences of other people" is the "feminine" explanation (empathy for others is good, so if women apologize more because they are more empathetic then that reflects well on women), while "men have a higher threshold for physical and social pain" is the "masculine" explanation (courage in the face of pain is good, so if men apologize less because they tolerate pain more then that reflects well on men). Maybe they should ask samples of male and female psychologists what they think the explanation is and see if the alternate explanations are correlated with sex. :)

Men tolerate pain more than women?

I am not so sure.

How many men would tolerate the pains of childbirth without begging for drugs?
I gave birth to my son without any drugs whatsoever. My husband was amazed.
I also routinely use no drugs whatsoever whenever I have to have a dental procedure.
Do I have a high tolerance for pain? I do not think so, but I have learned to pray.

Nevertheless, when my husband had to undergo two surgeries recently, doctors and nurses were amazed that he did not demand drugs as do so many other men. He did not press the pump immediately as they recommended but waited. He found that he did not need the high doses that they recommended. In fact, as my husband was being wheeled into surgery this May 2011, he told the doctor to use the minimum possible, while a guy in the bed beside him was asking for anything that could numb him ... the more the merrier.

You can't disprove the generalization that men tolerate pain more than women by the singular examples of yourself and your husband. Sounds to me like you're just upset that there may be a reason for men apologizing less that reflects well on men rather than women. ;)

No, please do not read into my posts.

On the contrary, I think that men apologize less because they just do not see how their behavior can offend.
I think that women are more sensitive in certain areas.

However, many of the men that I have met do not like or seek constructive criticism.

We are all individuals and when psychologists try to stereotype men or women according to gender roles, there will always be exceptions to those stereotypic rules.

There are exceptions, but there is also truth to the stereotypes. If there were absolutely no truth to stereotypes, stereotypes would not exist. While claiming to reject them, you yourself make use of them in the explanation you proffer for these behavior patterns.

"They do not see how their behavior can offend" can be read as "they do not see how it can be painful", construing "pain" in the broadest sense to include any kind of mental or physical discomfort. How else would you account for this behavior among men than the fact that men on average have higher tolerance for discomfort than women?

Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2011, 05:46:47 PM »
I like that. I wouldn't be surprised if "women are more focused on the experiences of other people" is the "feminine" explanation (empathy for others is good, so if women apologize more because they are more empathetic then that reflects well on women), while "men have a higher threshold for physical and social pain" is the "masculine" explanation (courage in the face of pain is good, so if men apologize less because they tolerate pain more then that reflects well on men). Maybe they should ask samples of male and female psychologists what they think the explanation is and see if the alternate explanations are correlated with sex. :)

Men tolerate pain more than women?

I am not so sure.

How many men would tolerate the pains of childbirth without begging for drugs?
I gave birth to my son without any drugs whatsoever. My husband was amazed.
I also routinely use no drugs whatsoever whenever I have to have a dental procedure.
Do I have a high tolerance for pain? I do not think so, but I have learned to pray.

Nevertheless, when my husband had to undergo two surgeries recently, doctors and nurses were amazed that he did not demand drugs as do so many other men. He did not press the pump immediately as they recommended but waited. He found that he did not need the high doses that they recommended. In fact, as my husband was being wheeled into surgery this May 2011, he told the doctor to use the minimum possible, while a guy in the bed beside him was asking for anything that could numb him ... the more the merrier.

You can't disprove the generalization that men tolerate pain more than women by the singular examples of yourself and your husband. Sounds to me like you're just upset that there may be a reason for men apologizing less that reflects well on men rather than women. ;)

No, please do not read into my posts.

On the contrary, I think that men apologize less because they just do not see how their behavior can offend.
I think that women are more sensitive in certain areas.

However, many of the men that I have met do not like or seek constructive criticism.

We are all individuals and when psychologists try to stereotype men or women according to gender roles, there will always be exceptions to those stereotypic rules.

There are exceptions, but there is also truth to the stereotypes. If there were absolutely no truth to stereotypes, stereotypes would not exist. While claiming to reject them, you yourself make use of them in the explanation you proffer for these behavior patterns.

"They do not see how their behavior can offend" can be read as "they do not see how it can be painful", construing "pain" in the broadest sense to include any kind of mental or physical discomfort. How else would you account for this behavior among men than the fact that men on average have higher tolerance for discomfort than women?

I think we agree about stereotypes.

Men are seen as warriors, women as nurturers.
Men engage in real or online war games with the intention of inflicting pain, while a woman raises children and tries to protect their husband and children from pain.
However, there are some women warriors and even some women on this forum who love to pick fights.
Surely, they have higher tolerances for pain.
As a result, they do not fit the stereotype.
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2011, 07:56:24 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I think that men apologize less because they just do not see how their behavior can offend.


Not necessarily, many men may emphatically see the consequences of their behavior but not apologize to conform to roles, and not just gender, but also age, class, status etc..

Men tolerate pain more than women?

I am not so sure.

I would agree with this, from my experience clearly women can tolerate pain better both long term chronic pain and short term extremes.
:D

From what I've read in feminist publications, I really do agree that women apologize much more than men.
But this should not assume such apologies are sincere, perhaps they may just be sociocultural reflex response like "how are you?" questions? These may not reflect then a difference in the genders' psychology so much as difference in constructed sociocultural patterns and roles which we may conform to without internalizing.
I remember discussing this subject in my Intro to Communications class back in University.

When a woman is talking about a problem she's having she generally just wants someone to listen.

When a man is talking about a problem he's having he generally wants advice.

The two sexes tend to react to each other as they would like to be reacted to, causing lots of lovely problems.
Just because women seemingly want someone to listen, does this assume they actually want active listening instead of just the attention of another person's ear?
And with men, if they seemingly want advice, sometimes couldn't this "giving advice" process really just be a mechanism symbolic of listening, and so men in this situation could be seeking the same attention and listening and not really advice at all? See, again, when looking at sociocultural behavior, it is the result of preconstructed patterns of behavior with we naturally and subconsciously conform towards, so these patterns of behavior do not necessarily reveal any internalized or psychological differences so much as sociocultural preconstructed patterns and systems which dictate our behaviors but not necessarily our psychology? So there may be absolutely NO psychological differences in men and women, but many constructed patterns of difference we call "roles" which we learn (more or less) to conform.

This is the problem with stereotypes, they don't necessarily reveal anything about human psychology so much as human sociocultural constructions of behavior patterns, which in part articulate internalized psychology but does not automatically limit such.  The human mind is profoundly complex, we create an entire outward system of behavior and thinking which we learn to "act" and "play" these roles, which do influence thinking but are also relatively independent by the nature of having been systematized.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 08:07:37 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2011, 07:59:50 PM »
a woman ...tries to protect their husband ...from pain.

Wow, where did you get this? That's just crazy talk!  Doesn't describe any marriage I've ever heard of...

 :P

Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2011, 08:15:32 PM »
a woman ...tries to protect their husband ...from pain.

Wow, where did you get this? That's just crazy talk!  Doesn't describe any marriage I've ever heard of...

 :P

Love does not inflict pain as it does no evil.
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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2011, 08:19:27 PM »
a woman ...tries to protect their husband ...from pain.

Wow, where did you get this? That's just crazy talk!  Doesn't describe any marriage I've ever heard of...

 :P

Love does not inflict pain as it does no evil.

Two things, then, if that is true: 1) there may be a lack of love in 95% of marriages; and 2) sometimes pain is not evil, but desireable.

Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2011, 08:41:00 PM »
a woman ...tries to protect their husband ...from pain.

Wow, where did you get this? That's just crazy talk!  Doesn't describe any marriage I've ever heard of...

 :P

Love does not inflict pain as it does no evil.

Two things, then, if that is true: 1) there may be a lack of love in 95% of marriages; and 2) sometimes pain is not evil, but desireable.

Yes, if a husband is sick, then sometimes the wife must do some painful things.
For example, I may have to deny my husband some rich foods if the doctor has prohibited him from having those foods.
Once I had to administer painful eye drops when my husband had a bad eye infection.
In those cases, the pain is part of our fallen world, not a deliberate intent to hurt.
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Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2011, 09:22:34 PM »

But this should not assume such apologies are sincere, perhaps they may just be sociocultural reflex response like "how are you?" questions? These may not reflect then a difference in the genders' psychology so much as difference in constructed sociocultural patterns and roles which we may conform to without internalizing.
I quite agree with you, and the other places where I've read about this topic all seemed to conclude that it was because of sociocultural patterns -- not uniquely female psychology. Women are expected to be nurturers and harbor sympathy for other humans, so therefore, they apologize as a demonstration of caring for the other person's well being, even though it's their fault.

One article I read surmised that women apologized because we are actually apologizing for taking up space. Women were, like children, supposed to be not seen and heard in the man's world, so they apologize since they were conditioned to apologize when they spoke up or took up space in spheres that were usually dominated by men.

Interesting stuff. I like reading such studies, but like you, I acknowledge that the individual human being is so complex, so I am very aware of the limits of generalities. But of course our human mind can tend to want to categorize things and put them into boxes. It's very much a compulsion in our society.

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Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2011, 09:40:58 PM »

But this should not assume such apologies are sincere, perhaps they may just be sociocultural reflex response like "how are you?" questions? These may not reflect then a difference in the genders' psychology so much as difference in constructed sociocultural patterns and roles which we may conform to without internalizing.
I quite agree with you, and the other places where I've read about this topic all seemed to conclude that it was because of sociocultural patterns -- not uniquely female psychology. Women are expected to be nurturers and harbor sympathy for other humans, so therefore, they apologize as a demonstration of caring for the other person's well being, even though it's their fault.

One article I read surmised that women apologized because we are actually apologizing for taking up space. Women were, like children, supposed to be not seen and heard in the man's world, so they apologize since they were conditioned to apologize when they spoke up or took up space in spheres that were usually dominated by men.

Interesting stuff. I like reading such studies, but like you, I acknowledge that the individual human being is so complex, so I am very aware of the limits of generalities. But of course our human mind can tend to want to categorize things and put them into boxes. It's very much a compulsion in our society.

Liora

Exactly, our schemata differ according to our gender, age, economic status, religion, language, and nationality.
Therefore, it is impossible to put us all in the same box.

Consider this too: stereotyping people is an attempt to control them by supposedly understanding their way of thinking.
That is why stereotyping people according to race and gender is now politically incorrect.
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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2011, 09:42:39 PM »
Consider this too: stereotyping people is an attempt to control them by supposedly understanding their way of thinking.
That is why stereotyping people according to race and gender is now politically incorrect.

You do realise that you're stereotyping people here, right?

Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2011, 09:45:39 PM »
Consider this too: stereotyping people is an attempt to control them by supposedly understanding their way of thinking.
That is why stereotyping people according to race and gender is now politically incorrect.

You do realise that you're stereotyping people here, right?

We all do.

We put people into nice boxes in our schemata especially during political elections.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 09:46:29 PM by Maria »
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2011, 09:46:22 PM »
Consider this too: stereotyping people is an attempt to control them by supposedly understanding their way of thinking.
That is why stereotyping people according to race and gender is now politically incorrect.

You do realise that you're stereotyping people here, right?

We all do.

There you go again!

Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2011, 09:47:58 PM »
Consider this too: stereotyping people is an attempt to control them by supposedly understanding their way of thinking.
That is why stereotyping people according to race and gender is now politically incorrect.

You do realise that you're stereotyping people here, right?

We all do.

There you go again!

Et tu?
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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2011, 09:53:54 PM »
Consider this too: stereotyping people is an attempt to control them by supposedly understanding their way of thinking.
That is why stereotyping people according to race and gender is now politically incorrect.

You do realise that you're stereotyping people here, right?

We all do.

There you go again!

Et tu?

Sure, I stereotype, but that doesn't mean you had to point it out so publically  :police:

Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2011, 10:03:21 PM »
Consider this too: stereotyping people is an attempt to control them by supposedly understanding their way of thinking.
That is why stereotyping people according to race and gender is now politically incorrect.

You do realise that you're stereotyping people here, right?

We all do.

There you go again!

Et tu?

Sure, I stereotype, but that doesn't mean you had to point it out so publically  :police:

How did I point it out publicly?
It seems like you pointed it out first, and I simply agreed with you.

As we store bits of information in our schemata, we are stereotyping the things around us in order to better understand our world.
It is a part of our human condition. If we do not store information, then we are bound to make mistakes and continue to repeat them.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2011, 10:05:45 PM »
However, we also can make errors when inputting information into our schemata.
Then we need to reorganize our schemata.
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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2011, 10:14:38 PM »
I'm just joshin with you. Though now that I think about it, why is it "joshin"? That's such a stereotype, as though men can't be serious. Why not "I'm just jillin with you"? *shakes head*

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2011, 10:15:40 PM »
There really needs to be a sarcasm font in this forum.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Men - a discourse analysis rant
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2011, 10:16:54 PM »
I'm just joshin with you. Though now that I think about it, why is it "joshin"? That's such a stereotype, as though men can't be serious. Why not "I'm just jillin with you"? *shakes head*

:)

It has been a joy "jillin" with you.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 10:19:10 PM by Maria »
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