Topic: Scandinavian Orthodoxy

[Jason.Wike]

I hope this may be seen also outside of Finland. Here's a video of Divine Liturgy in Swedish at Uspenski cathedral in Helsinki. Apparently some new Swedish translation was used.

The video should be available for 28 days from now on and IIRC the liturgy will be seen at Swedish and Norwegian television sometimes during next autumn.

Nice. How did Swedish get to be so different from Norwegian and Danish though?

[Orthodox11]

Nice. How did Swedish get to be so different from Norwegian and Danish though?

It isn't. Or did you mean pronunciation? They all have Finnish accents. Finnish, of course, is a very different sounding language to Norwegian and Danish.

[Alpo]

They all have Finnish accents. Finnish, of course, is a very different sounding language to Norwegian and Danish.

While it could be that many people in the video are Finnish-speaking Finns who just fail to pronounce Swedish properly there probably are also some Swedish-speaking Finns. Their language is more of an actual dialect than mere accent.

[Gorazd]

Any way to download this video?

[Ansgar]

They all have Finnish accents. Finnish, of course, is a very different sounding language to Norwegian and Danish.

While it could be that many people in the video are Finnish-speaking Finns who just fail to pronounce Swedish properly there probably are also some Swedish-speaking Finns. Their language is more of an actual dialect than mere accent.

Tell me about it. I can hardly read it. I have a book on orthodox theology written by clergymen in the north and I have a hard understanding the finland-swedish text.

[Alpo]

They all have Finnish accents. Finnish, of course, is a very different sounding language to Norwegian and Danish.

While it could be that many people in the video are Finnish-speaking Finns who just fail to pronounce Swedish properly there probably are also some Swedish-speaking Finns. Their language is more of an actual dialect than mere accent.

Tell me about it. I can hardly read it. I have a book on orthodox theology written by clergymen in the north and I have a hard understanding the finland-swedish text.

LOL. What book is that?

Sorry Ansgar, but you reminded of this and I just have to place it here. Andre Wickström is a Finnish Swedish-speaking stand-up comedian who apparently had some serious trouble understanding Danish language. A sort of English version can be found here. I hope you don't find those offending since he makes fun of Finns too.

Any way to download this video?

There are loads of programs which can be used for downloading streaming videos from internet but I'm not exactly sure how legal that is. Finnish national public-broadcasting company itself doesn't offer any means for downloading videos from that site. Or anywhere else for that matter.

[Alveus Lacuna]

On another thread, or perhaps in this one, somebody posted some Ukrainian Orthodox churches that look very similar to the stave churches. Can anybody clue me in on these and maybe their history?

[Ansgar]

LOL. What book is that?

Ortodokse Røster i Nord. It's very good.  
http://www.ambon.se/ambon.se/bokhandel/ortodokse-roster-i-nord-i

Sorry Ansgar, but you reminded of this and I just have to place it here. Andre Wickström is a Finnish Swedish-speaking stand-up comedian who apparently had some serious trouble understanding Danish language.

Is that how we sound to you guys

[Orthodox11]

Is that how we sound to you guys

Hahaha, I thought his Danish was spot on! Funny guy!

[Ansgar]

Is that how we sound to you guys

Hahaha, I thought his Danish was spot on! Funny guy!

It actually sounded quite danish

[Jason.Wike]

On another thread, or perhaps in this one, somebody posted some Ukrainian Orthodox churches that look very similar to the stave churches. Can anybody clue me in on these and maybe their history?

Like this? There's similar ones in Slovakia, Poland, and around the area. Even Protestants built some churches like that.

[celticfan1888]

Is that how we sound to you guys

Ja! Ja! lol

[Orthodox11]

On another thread, or perhaps in this one, somebody posted some Ukrainian Orthodox churches that look very similar to the stave churches. Can anybody clue me in on these and maybe their history?

The Rus were of Scandinavian descent, there's plenty of cultural overlap.

[celticfan1888]

On another thread, or perhaps in this one, somebody posted some Ukrainian Orthodox churches that look very similar to the stave churches. Can anybody clue me in on these and maybe their history?

History of the Rus' (who were Vikings that came from mostly modern-day Sweden). Explains why some of these things are similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_people

[Alpo]

On another thread, or perhaps in this one, somebody posted some Ukrainian Orthodox churches that look very similar to the stave churches. Can anybody clue me in on these and maybe their history?

History of the Rus' (who were Vikings that came from mostly modern-day Sweden). Explains why some of these things are similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_people

There was a rather cool map over there. Beware, O Russia and Sweden! Some day we take our belonings back!

[ialmisry]

On another thread, or perhaps in this one, somebody posted some Ukrainian Orthodox churches that look very similar to the stave churches. Can anybody clue me in on these and maybe their history?

History of the Rus' (who were Vikings that came from mostly modern-day Sweden). Explains why some of these things are similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_people

There was a rather cool map over there. Beware, O Russia and Sweden! Some day we take our belonings back!

Rurik was a Swedized Finn, with Slavicized progeny.  The Finns kept it but lost their language.

[Alpo]

Rurik was a Swedized Finn, with Slavicized progeny.  The Finns kept it but lost their language.

You lost me. What we kept and what we lost?

[Jason.Wike]

Rurik was a Swedized Finn, with Slavicized progeny.  The Finns kept it but lost their language.

You lost me. What we kept and what we lost?

Finno-Ugrics in Russia kept their territory but they became Russians.

[Alpo]

Rurik was a Swedized Finn, with Slavicized progeny.  The Finns kept it but lost their language.

You lost me. What we kept and what we lost?

Finno-Ugrics in Russia kept their territory but they became Russians.

Thanks, Jason.Wike.

Now that I think of it this explains why Ingegerd Olofsdotter of Sweden became St. Anna of Novgorod.

[Alpo]

I'd like to ask all of our Scandinavians in here whether you miss Western liturgy? AFAIK all Scandinavian state churches have fairly traditional Western liturgy as their standard sunday service so it's sort of part of our cultures.

[Ansgar]

I'd like to ask all of our Scandinavians in here whether you miss Western liturgy? AFAIK all Scandinavian state churches have fairly traditional Western liturgy as their standard sunday service so it's sort of part of our cultures.

Well, it's hard to say. When I attend a lutheran church, I sometimes do miss it and think about how great it would be if the churches could be filled again, but I still think that something is missing from the danish liturgy. The swedish and norwegian liturgies for example have kept much more of their catholic inheritance. I once attended a norwegian wedding and I was surprised to see that the priest were wearing a chasuble. I have only seen one danish priest wearing a chasuble in all my life. So while the danish liturgy is nice, I wouldn't give away the divine liturgy for anything.

[ialmisry]

I'd like to ask all of our Scandinavians in here whether you miss Western liturgy? AFAIK all Scandinavian state churches have fairly traditional Western liturgy as their standard sunday service so it's sort of part of our cultures.

Well, it's hard to say. When I attend a lutheran church, I sometimes do miss it and think about how great it would be if the churches could be filled again, but I still think that something is missing from the danish liturgy. The swedish and norwegian liturgies for example have kept much more of their catholic inheritance. I once attended a norwegian wedding and I was surprised to see that the priest were wearing a chasuble. I have only seen one danish priest wearing a chasuble in all my life. So while the danish liturgy is nice, I wouldn't give away the divine liturgy for anything.

I wonder how the liturgy of the Nordic Catholic Church compares.

[Gorazd]

I'd like to ask all of our Scandinavians in here whether you miss Western liturgy? AFAIK all Scandinavian state churches have fairly traditional Western liturgy as their standard sunday service so it's sort of part of our cultures.

I'm not a Scandinavian, but I went to see a Lutheran mass in a small Swedish town about 3 months ago, and it was really beautiful. And, in fact, extremely similar to what I have seen in the ECUSA.

[Orthodox11]

Well, it's hard to say. When I attend a lutheran church, I sometimes do miss it and think about how great it would be if the churches could be filled again, but I still think that something is missing from the danish liturgy. The swedish and norwegian liturgies for example have kept much more of their catholic inheritance. I once attended a norwegian wedding and I was surprised to see that the priest were wearing a chasuble. I have only seen one danish priest wearing a chasuble in all my life. So while the danish liturgy is nice, I wouldn't give away the divine liturgy for anything.

I attended a Church of Norway service last Sunday. It opens with the "Kyrie eleison, Gud Fader, forbarme Deg", etc. sung in very traditional plainchant. As a child, the plainchant stuff was the only part of the service I ever liked. I found it very moving, despite the organ, and I suddenly got very nostalgic. The next hour was a collection of hymns (all of which sound like children's songs), solo performances, and various readings (all of which contained failed attempts at humour). I went from almost being moved to tears in the first couple of minutes, to spending the next 58minutes dying to leave. I couldn't get over just how empty, lifeless and superficial it all was.

[Ansgar]

I'd like to ask all of our Scandinavians in here whether you miss Western liturgy? AFAIK all Scandinavian state churches have fairly traditional Western liturgy as their standard sunday service so it's sort of part of our cultures.

Well, it's hard to say. When I attend a lutheran church, I sometimes do miss it and think about how great it would be if the churches could be filled again, but I still think that something is missing from the danish liturgy. The swedish and norwegian liturgies for example have kept much more of their catholic inheritance. I once attended a norwegian wedding and I was surprised to see that the priest were wearing a chasuble. I have only seen one danish priest wearing a chasuble in all my life. So while the danish liturgy is nice, I wouldn't give away the divine liturgy for anything.

I wonder how the liturgy of the Nordic Catholic Church compares.

I just watched some parts of their liturgy. It really looks like a lutheran mass, just with some catholic elements and I could recognize some of the things. They don't sound weird or anything though. Just another high lutheran traditionalist group.

[Ansgar]

I attended a Church of Norway service last Sunday. It opens with the "Kyrie eleison, Gud Fader, forbarme Deg", etc. sung in very traditional plainchant. As a child, the plainchant stuff was the only part of the service I ever liked. I found it very moving, despite the organ, and I suddenly got very nostalgic

I know. The danish church doesn't use chant anymore and then, last year, when I watched the memorial service for the Utøya victims (may their memory be eternal), the deacon(or church servant, I'm not really sure) started chanting the creed and I was completely mindblowed. It was beautiful.

[Alpo]

I just watched some parts of their liturgy. It really looks like a lutheran mass, just with some catholic elements and I could recognize some of the things. They don't sound weird or anything though. Just another high lutheran traditionalist group.

I don't know about Norwegian and Danish Lutherans but to me this definetely seems more Roman and Catholic than Lutheran.

[orthonorm]

Ansgar and Alpo,

Reading your posts today have brought more than a few smiles.

I laugh a lot but smile rarely.

You two are (there is no decent English word that doesn't come off as patronizing or at least I can't think of one, but it's really, really, good whatever it is).

Thanks.

[orthonorm]

I'd like to ask all of our Scandinavians in here whether you miss Western liturgy? AFAIK all Scandinavian state churches have fairly traditional Western liturgy as their standard sunday service so it's sort of part of our cultures.

Well, it's hard to say. When I attend a lutheran church, I sometimes do miss it and think about how great it would be if the churches could be filled again, but I still think that something is missing from the danish liturgy. The swedish and norwegian liturgies for example have kept much more of their catholic inheritance. I once attended a norwegian wedding and I was surprised to see that the priest were wearing a chasuble. I have only seen one danish priest wearing a chasuble in all my life. So while the danish liturgy is nice, I wouldn't give away the divine liturgy for anything.

Maybe I missed it, but do you have a link to a Lutheran liturgy from your parts?

[Ansgar]

I just watched some parts of their liturgy. It really looks like a lutheran mass, just with some catholic elements and I could recognize some of the things. They don't sound weird or anything though. Just another high lutheran traditionalist group.

I don't know about Norwegian and Danish Lutherans but to me this definetely seems more Roman and Catholic than Lutheran.

That was quite catholic. I watched this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9Vvx3hc-bA&feature=player_embedded

Many of the prayers can also be found in the danish church, just in a less liturgical fashion.

[Ansgar]

I'd like to ask all of our Scandinavians in here whether you miss Western liturgy? AFAIK all Scandinavian state churches have fairly traditional Western liturgy as their standard sunday service so it's sort of part of our cultures.

Well, it's hard to say. When I attend a lutheran church, I sometimes do miss it and think about how great it would be if the churches could be filled again, but I still think that something is missing from the danish liturgy. The swedish and norwegian liturgies for example have kept much more of their catholic inheritance. I once attended a norwegian wedding and I was surprised to see that the priest were wearing a chasuble. I have only seen one danish priest wearing a chasuble in all my life. So while the danish liturgy is nice, I wouldn't give away the divine liturgy for anything.

Maybe I missed it, but do you have a link to a Lutheran liturgy from your parts?

Man, are you lucky. I just found a complete danish christmas mass and here, the priest are actually wearing a chasuble. The liturgy is still as in every other church though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-MK5dGgYrA&feature=relmfu (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cDIyDo0q3o&feature=related (part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cDIyDo0q3o&feature=relmfu (part 3)

(You will see the priest singing some of the parts of the mass which is very rare but do happen in some parishes)

[Alpo]

That was quite catholic. I watched this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9Vvx3hc-bA&feature=player_embedded

Well that was indeed more Lutheran. Except for the icons and Slavic crosses which are painful reminder that this could have been an Orthodox church if something hadn't went wrong.

[Ansgar]

That was quite catholic. I watched this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9Vvx3hc-bA&feature=player_embedded

Well that was indeed more Lutheran. Except for the icons and Slavic crosses which are painful reminder that this could have been an Orthodox church if something hadn't went wrong.

Yeah, it's sad. Appearently, they know about the orthodox church. They mention it shortly in the introduction.

[celticfan1888]

I'd like to ask all of our Scandinavians in here whether you miss Western liturgy? AFAIK all Scandinavian state churches have fairly traditional Western liturgy as their standard sunday service so it's sort of part of our cultures.

Some days I legitimately do. And when I go back and visit I wish it could be part of Orthodoxy.

[Ansgar]

Our archimandrite led a pilgrimage to Serbia. They even met Patriarch Irenej.  
http://www.ortodoks.com/

[William]

Are Lutheran masses kind of Roman rite or a unique Germanic rite?

Also, I'd think the Slavic rite would work culturally in Scandinavia seeing as how the Rus' were Scandinavians and Russian Orthodoxy is a state church in Finland.

[Ansgar]

Are Lutheran masses kind of Roman rite or a unique Germanic rite?

Also, I'd think the Slavic rite would work culturally in Scandinavia seeing as how the Rus' were Scandinavians and Russian Orthodoxy is a state church in Finland.

It depends. The norwegian liturgy is still relatively high liturgical, while the danish liturgy(with a few excpetions) is very lutheranized.

[Orthodox11]

Also, I'd think the Slavic rite would work culturally in Scandinavia seeing as how the Rus' were Scandinavians

The Rus were Scandinavians, but the Rite used is Byzantine, the modern Slavic form of which developed in an environment which was quite distinct from that of the Scandinavian countries. The grandure of Imperial Russia, which shapes so much of modern Russian practice, is pretty much antithetical to every aspect of Scandinavian culture. "It's just too much" has been the general verdict of Norwegians I know who have attended Orthodox liturgies. So I don't think the cultural connection is as meaningful as it might appear at first sight.

I have always thought the Old Rite (in a less austere form perhaps) would be very appropriate in a Scandinavian context.

[Ansgar]

I have always thought the Old Rite (in a less austere form perhaps) would be very appropriate in a Scandinavian context.
 

Really? I have always thought that even with the old rite, most scandinavians would find the liturgy way to emotional.

[Orthodox11]

Really? I have always thought that even with the old rite, most scandinavians would find the liturgy way to emotional.

It will always be foreign to those who grew up in such a radically different tradition but I think the older, simpler, less ostentatious Russian forms preserved in the Old Rite would be more appropriate in a Scandinavian context. I'm talking here only about the rite, of course, not about the "Old Believers" themselves.

[Gorazd]

The "lower" Lutheran services in Germany are due to the enlightenment and Reformed influences (remember, the Hohenzollern family was Calvinist, not Lutheran).

Luther himself said mass in German, but in quite a high style. About the same as Lutheran masses in Sweden or Finland today.

As for liturgy being "too much", we can respond that we do not do ur own thing, but we do join the worship of the angels in heaven.

[Jason.Wike]

Also, I'd think the Slavic rite would work culturally in Scandinavia seeing as how the Rus' were Scandinavians

The Rus were Scandinavians, but the Rite used is Byzantine, the modern Slavic form of which developed in an environment which was quite distinct from that of the Scandinavian countries. The grandure of Imperial Russia, which shapes so much of modern Russian practice, is pretty much antithetical to every aspect of Scandinavian culture. "It's just too much" has been the general verdict of Norwegians I know who have attended Orthodox liturgies. So I don't think the cultural connection is as meaningful as it might appear at first sight.

I have always thought the Old Rite (in a less austere form perhaps) would be very appropriate in a Scandinavian context.

I'm curious how the Old Rite is different and what would make it more appropriate? I've seen videos of their services that always seem to be set in the woods, so not sure how that is different from when they actually have a church.

[Orthodox11]

I'm curious how the Old Rite is different and what would make it more appropriate? I've seen videos of their services that always seem to be set in the woods, so not sure how that is different from when they actually have a church.

It's not so much the rites themselves (I don't really like calling them "rites" since they're all just variants of the same Byzantine Rite), and more the manner in which they're performed today. The Old Rite just seems to be more understated, lesh flashy. I don't have first hand experience of it though, so my impression of it might be wrong.

[Alpo]

The grandure of Imperial Russia, which shapes so much of modern Russian practice, is pretty much antithetical to every aspect of Scandinavian culture. "It's just too much" has been the general verdict of Norwegians I know who have attended Orthodox liturgies. So I don't think the cultural connection is as meaningful as it might appear at first sight.

I don't know about (former?) state church of Norway but the developments of liturgical services in the state church of Finland has been more
to high church direction than the other way around.

[Ansgar]

Theotoke parthene in Norwegian 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12OXczv8GGA&feature=plcp