Topic: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime

[JamesRottnek]

PICTURE WAR!

Isa already launched the nukes, and decimated the enemy.

[ialmisry]

Sorry, other than the title Martyr, I can't make out the name of this person in your picture.  Probably, the fault of my computer not you.  Is it someone Orthodox should kmow?

not really.  It's the Vatican's bishop for Mukacheve Theodore Romzha, who was not only in submission to the Vatican, but Magyarized, important as he took office when the Fascist Hungarians (who had taken the area with the help of the Poles, who executed the defending soldiers) were driven out by the Soviets.  He was later killed by the Soviets.

[WetCatechumen]

The title of this thread does not sit well with me.

Sits fine with me.

I also

I vote aye

"For where two or three are gathered in My name, there am I among them...."I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.  Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven."
All those in favor

Aye!

All those opposed.

No!


The ayes have it.

There are martyrs on both sides.

When will you forgive, Isa? There is so much bitterness in your heart.

[ialmisry]

The title of this thread does not sit well with me.

Sits fine with me.

I also

I vote aye

"For where two or three are gathered in My name, there am I among them...."I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.  Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven."
All those in favor

Aye!

All those opposed.

No!


The ayes have it.

There are martyrs on both sides.

Oh?  I hear that the faithful rushed to be reunited "to Catholic unity" in 1596, 1646,.....at least that is what the Vatican tells us.

When will you forgive, Isa?

when there is repentence.  The past can be forgiven and/or forgotten, but the present cannot be either.

There is so much bitterness in your heart.

Not at all.  I just don't celebrate injustices.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19951112_iv-cent-union-brest_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19960418_union-uzhorod_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20000720_unione-romania-roma_en.html

[podkarpatska]

Not all of our hearts are as hard Isa's seems to be on the surface.

In the mid-twentieth century, on both sides of the Atlantic, the Rusyn and Ukrainian peoples found their beloved faith and unique patrimony under attack. In the United States the attack came from Roman imperialists who wanted to dissolve the Greek Catholic church outside of its historical homelands. From that attack arose brave witnesses who turned to Orthodoxy to preserve that which was bequeathed to them. Men like Saint Alexis of Wilkes-Barre, the late Metropolitan Orestes and many others held steadfast and accepted the risks that came with challenging the superior power.  In the old world the post-War threat came not from Rome, but rather from the East with the Communists and their attempts to liquidate and control the Greek Catholics in an effort to tighten the rings of the Iron Curtain. To counter Russian/Communist imperialism, came men such as Blessed Teodor Rhomza and Blessed Pavel Goidich who were martyred for their faith.

[elijahmaria]

Not all of our hearts are as hard Isa's seems to be on the surface.

In the mid-twentieth century, on both sides of the Atlantic, the Rusyn and Ukrainian peoples found their beloved faith and unique patrimony under attack. In the United States the attack came from Roman imperialists who wanted to dissolve the Greek Catholic church outside of its historical homelands. From that attack arose brave witnesses who turned to Orthodoxy to preserve that which was bequeathed to them. Men like Saint Alexis of Wilkes-Barre, the late Metropolitan Orestes and many others held steadfast and accepted the risks that came with challenging the superior power.  In the old world the post-War threat came not from Rome, but rather from the East with the Communists and their attempts to liquidate and control the Greek Catholics in an effort to tighten the rings of the Iron Curtain. To counter Russian/Communist imperialism, came men such as Blessed Teodor Rhomza and Blessed Pavel Goidich who were martyred for their faith.

There's a reality concerning Met. Orestes that makes him more of self-willed hierarch than a brave and steadfast witness.  That's a family story not a street draft...while we are busy shooting at icons might as well look truth in the face.

M.

[Schultz]

Not all of our hearts are as hard Isa's seems to be on the surface.

In the mid-twentieth century, on both sides of the Atlantic, the Rusyn and Ukrainian peoples found their beloved faith and unique patrimony under attack. In the United States the attack came from Roman imperialists who wanted to dissolve the Greek Catholic church outside of its historical homelands. From that attack arose brave witnesses who turned to Orthodoxy to preserve that which was bequeathed to them. Men like Saint Alexis of Wilkes-Barre, the late Metropolitan Orestes and many others held steadfast and accepted the risks that came with challenging the superior power.  In the old world the post-War threat came not from Rome, but rather from the East with the Communists and their attempts to liquidate and control the Greek Catholics in an effort to tighten the rings of the Iron Curtain. To counter Russian/Communist imperialism, came men such as Blessed Teodor Rhomza and Blessed Pavel Goidich who were martyred for their faith.

There's a reality concerning Met. Orestes that makes him more of self-willed hierarch than a brave and steadfast witness.  That's a family story not a street draft...while we are busy shooting at icons might as well look truth in the face.

M.

I have to ask: why bring this up at this particular junction, esp. when quoting podkarpatska who went out of his way to bring up Bl. Theodor and Bl. Pavel?

This is nothing but gossip and you outright admitted it (eg "a family story and not a street draft...") and something that should be beneath you, Mary.

[elijahmaria]

Not all of our hearts are as hard Isa's seems to be on the surface.

In the mid-twentieth century, on both sides of the Atlantic, the Rusyn and Ukrainian peoples found their beloved faith and unique patrimony under attack. In the United States the attack came from Roman imperialists who wanted to dissolve the Greek Catholic church outside of its historical homelands. From that attack arose brave witnesses who turned to Orthodoxy to preserve that which was bequeathed to them. Men like Saint Alexis of Wilkes-Barre, the late Metropolitan Orestes and many others held steadfast and accepted the risks that came with challenging the superior power.  In the old world the post-War threat came not from Rome, but rather from the East with the Communists and their attempts to liquidate and control the Greek Catholics in an effort to tighten the rings of the Iron Curtain. To counter Russian/Communist imperialism, came men such as Blessed Teodor Rhomza and Blessed Pavel Goidich who were martyred for their faith.

There's a reality concerning Met. Orestes that makes him more of self-willed hierarch than a brave and steadfast witness.  That's a family story not a street draft...while we are busy shooting at icons might as well look truth in the face.

M.

I have to ask: why bring this up at this particular junction, esp. when quoting podkarpatska who went out of his way to bring up Bl. Theodor and Bl. Pavel?

This is nothing but gossip and you outright admitted it (eg "a family story and not a street draft...") and something that should be beneath you, Mary.

The fact that the back-story of Metropolitan Orestes is rarely told...as it always is with St. Alexis indicates that something is not quite right.  So I caution against a knee-jerk rendering of Met. Orestes as a hero of the same caliber as St. Alexis for the Orthodox in the United States.

I have no intention of being mean-spirited about it.  It's just a caution and not a condemnation.

M.

[Jetavan]

PICTURE WAR!

I prefer Vatican Wars.

[ialmisry]

PICTURE WAR!

I prefer Vatican Wars.

Odd.  The subtitle is "defending the true teachings of Christ," but it only gives you two choices-Templars or Crusaders-neither of which do.

[elijahmaria]

PICTURE WAR!

I prefer Vatican Wars.

Odd.  The subtitle is "defending the true teachings of Christ," but it only gives you two choices-Templars or Crusaders-neither of which do.

Many of them did a far better job of it than the Soviet-Orthodox.  I know you just like to call them "Soviets" but we know what that means.

[Cavaradossi]

PICTURE WAR!

I prefer Vatican Wars.

Odd.  The subtitle is "defending the true teachings of Christ," but it only gives you two choices-Templars or Crusaders-neither of which do.

Many of them did a far better job of it than the Soviet-Orthodox.  I know you just like to call them "Soviets" but we know what that means.

And the "Soviet-Orthodox" did a much better job than Paul VI. Do we really need to go down this road?

[mike]

Part of the thread was moved to Ialmisry's & Elijahmaria's Infantile and Spiritually Unprofitable Bickering.

[elijahmaria]

PICTURE WAR!

I prefer Vatican Wars.

Odd.  The subtitle is "defending the true teachings of Christ," but it only gives you two choices-Templars or Crusaders-neither of which do.

Many of them did a far better job of it than the Soviet-Orthodox.  I know you just like to call them "Soviets" but we know what that means.

And the "Soviet-Orthodox" did a much better job than Paul VI. Do we really need to go down this road?

If there is another road, show me.

[Cavaradossi]

PICTURE WAR!

I prefer Vatican Wars.

Odd.  The subtitle is "defending the true teachings of Christ," but it only gives you two choices-Templars or Crusaders-neither of which do.

Many of them did a far better job of it than the Soviet-Orthodox.  I know you just like to call them "Soviets" but we know what that means.

And the "Soviet-Orthodox" did a much better job than Paul VI. Do we really need to go down this road?

If there is another road, show me.

Not responding to provocation is a road that one may take at any time.

[elijahmaria]

PICTURE WAR!

I prefer Vatican Wars.

Odd.  The subtitle is "defending the true teachings of Christ," but it only gives you two choices-Templars or Crusaders-neither of which do.

Many of them did a far better job of it than the Soviet-Orthodox.  I know you just like to call them "Soviets" but we know what that means.

And the "Soviet-Orthodox" did a much better job than Paul VI. Do we really need to go down this road?

If there is another road, show me.

Not responding to provocation is a road that one may take at any time.

Even you?

What message does your Avatar convey?

[Cavaradossi]

PICTURE WAR!

I prefer Vatican Wars.

Odd.  The subtitle is "defending the true teachings of Christ," but it only gives you two choices-Templars or Crusaders-neither of which do.

Many of them did a far better job of it than the Soviet-Orthodox.  I know you just like to call them "Soviets" but we know what that means.

And the "Soviet-Orthodox" did a much better job than Paul VI. Do we really need to go down this road?

If there is another road, show me.

Not responding to provocation is a road that one may take at any time.

Even you?

What message does your Avatar convey?

It's just a picture of me that a friend of mine took. I'm not actively seeking to quarrel with people. If I am, it's probably a sign that I should take a break from the internet for a while and speak to my confessor.

[elijahmaria]

It's just a picture of me that a friend of mine took.

My son and I used to collect comic book art, and your avatar reminded me of those years.  We had fun!!

[Cavaradossi]

It's just a picture of me that a friend of mine took.

My son and I used to collect comic book art, and your avatar reminded me of those years.  We had fun!!

Funny, my friends got a similar impression. They all either compared the picture to Street Fighter or to a comic book panel. 

[elijahmaria]

It's just a picture of me that a friend of mine took.

My son and I used to collect comic book art, and your avatar reminded me of those years.  We had fun!!

Funny, my friends got a similar impression. They all either compared the picture to Street Fighter or to a comic book panel. 

   exactly!!

[podkarpatska]

Not all of our hearts are as hard Isa's seems to be on the surface.

In the mid-twentieth century, on both sides of the Atlantic, the Rusyn and Ukrainian peoples found their beloved faith and unique patrimony under attack. In the United States the attack came from Roman imperialists who wanted to dissolve the Greek Catholic church outside of its historical homelands. From that attack arose brave witnesses who turned to Orthodoxy to preserve that which was bequeathed to them. Men like Saint Alexis of Wilkes-Barre, the late Metropolitan Orestes and many others held steadfast and accepted the risks that came with challenging the superior power.  In the old world the post-War threat came not from Rome, but rather from the East with the Communists and their attempts to liquidate and control the Greek Catholics in an effort to tighten the rings of the Iron Curtain. To counter Russian/Communist imperialism, came men such as Blessed Teodor Rhomza and Blessed Pavel Goidich who were martyred for their faith.

There's a reality concerning Met. Orestes that makes him more of self-willed hierarch than a brave and steadfast witness.  That's a family story not a street draft...while we are busy shooting at icons might as well look truth in the face.

M.

I have to ask: why bring this up at this particular junction, esp. when quoting podkarpatska who went out of his way to bring up Bl. Theodor and Bl. Pavel?

This is nothing but gossip and you outright admitted it (eg "a family story and not a street draft...") and something that should be beneath you, Mary.

I have to say that there is a special place for people like certain of our posters who just can't resist. They each make it exceedingly difficult to be restrained, polite, even-tempered or fair with their constant escalation of rhetoric and lack of mutual respect for each other.  I am glad that the Mod put them there.

[podkarpatska]

I will say this, my grandparents knew Bishop Pavel well as he was the parish priest at Cigelka, their home town in Slovakia. They loved and respected him for many reasons. Likewise they came to know and love Father Chornock here in America. I really can not believe that M. would resort to a cheap shot when I was trying to be balanced in an observation. All I can say is, Bah!

[Deacon Lance]

There's a reality concerning Met. Orestes that makes him more of self-willed hierarch than a brave and steadfast witness.  That's a family story not a street draft...while we are busy shooting at icons might as well look truth in the face.

M.

And there are stories of Bishop Basil Takach that make him out as a weak-willed syncophant, I don't believe them either.  In fact, I don't think there is a bishop or priest I haven't heard unkind stories about.  Let us be above gossip and unkind stories.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[biro]

There are martyrs on both sides.

When will you forgive, Isa? There is so much bitterness in your heart.

This.

[elijahmaria]

There's a reality concerning Met. Orestes that makes him more of self-willed hierarch than a brave and steadfast witness.  That's a family story not a street draft...while we are busy shooting at icons might as well look truth in the face.

M.

And there are stories of Bishop Basil Takach that make him out as a weak-willed syncophant, I don't believe them either.  In fact, I don't think there is a bishop or priest I haven't heard unkind stories about.  Let us be above gossip and unkind stories.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I have not said anything unkind. 

I have said not all bishops are equal. 

I have said I would not put Met. Orestes on the same pedestal as st. Alexis, and I would not put st. Alexis on the same ground as St. John Chrysostom, and I would not put St. John Chrysostom on the same pedestal as The Great Apostle.

I am with the Areopagite with his hierarchies. 

I am not obliged to think that everything and everyone is equal in the heavens and under the heavens!!

M.

[elijahmaria]

I will say this, my grandparents knew Bishop Pavel well as he was the parish priest at Cigelka, their home town in Slovakia. They loved and respected him for many reasons. Likewise they came to know and love Father Chornock here in America. I really can not believe that M. would resort to a cheap shot when I was trying to be balanced in an observation. All I can say is, Bah!

Cheap shot?  So you are the only one allowed to talk about families being divided, etc.?

I didn't know that was in the rules...heh!...

[elijahmaria]

There's a reality concerning Met. Orestes that makes him more of self-willed hierarch than a brave and steadfast witness.  That's a family story not a street draft...while we are busy shooting at icons might as well look truth in the face.

M.

And there are stories of Bishop Basil Takach that make him out as a weak-willed syncophant, I don't believe them either.  In fact, I don't think there is a bishop or priest I haven't heard unkind stories about.  Let us be above gossip and unkind stories.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Bishop Basil is not iconic.  If he was a weak bishop, I can accept that.  Weakness is not inherently evil. God makes great things happen by using our weaknesses to the good.  I don't believe there's any basis for saying that Bishop Basil is/was anything worse than that. 

Surely you know that there are iconic bishops in our history who did things and sponsored behaviors that were objectively evil...horridly evil cronyism in fact. 
 
Should we elide that history and pretend that it and its consequences never happened?

Why I am beginning to think you are sounding like some of our Latin rite bishops and their cover-ups!!

 ...not really...but you are on the right track to get there.

M.

[Deacon Lance]

Bishop Basil is not iconic.  If he was a weak bishop, I can accept that.  Weakness is not inherently evil. God makes great things happen by using our weaknesses to the good.  I don't believe there's any basis for saying that Bishop Basil is/was anything worse than that. 

Surely you know that there are iconic bishops in our history who did things and sponsored behaviors that were objectively evil...horridly evil cronyism in fact. 
 
Should we elide that history and pretend that it and its consequences never happened?

Why I am beginning to think you are sounding like some of our Latin rite bishops and their cover-ups!!

 ...not really...but you are on the right track to get there.

M.

No, we should not cover up evil.  But I hadn't realized we had crossed over that line.  You state Metropolitan Orestes was self-willed,  I would term it strong-willed and I think it served his people well.  He steered them clear of Moscow and prevented their Russification as happened to St. Alexis' parishes.  In anycase, he is iconic and a hero for ACROD and may eventually be canonized.  Why sully that with pettiness, especially in response to an Orthodox brother who recognizes the holiness of our martyr and confessor bishops?

[elijahmaria]

Bishop Basil is not iconic.  If he was a weak bishop, I can accept that.  Weakness is not inherently evil. God makes great things happen by using our weaknesses to the good.  I don't believe there's any basis for saying that Bishop Basil is/was anything worse than that. 

Surely you know that there are iconic bishops in our history who did things and sponsored behaviors that were objectively evil...horridly evil cronyism in fact. 
 
Should we elide that history and pretend that it and its consequences never happened?

Why I am beginning to think you are sounding like some of our Latin rite bishops and their cover-ups!!

 ...not really...but you are on the right track to get there.

M.

No, we should not cover up evil.  But I hadn't realized we had crossed over that line.  You state Metropolitan Orestes was self-willed,  I would term it strong-willed and I think it served his people well.  He steered them clear of Moscow and prevented their Russification as happened to St. Alexis' parishes.  In anycase, he is iconic and a hero for ACROD and may eventually be canonized.  Why sully that with pettiness, especially in response to an Orthodox brother who recognizes the holiness of our martyr and confessor bishops?

I think somebody better call in the devil's advocate before they canonize Met. Orestes.

If that is "sullying" then you have a very unique dictionary.

You may use this tactic to shut me up on the BC.forum but this group is a bit more honest than the one where you spend most of your time.

Funny that I am more welcome among the Orthodox than I am among my own:  I realize that I am defining "welcome" to include having most of my ideas rejected by many here: but I have yet to be "banned for life" or told that my vocation was "dead in the water, in this Church" because I publicly stated what many others stated in private. 

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Here is an article recently posted concerning the Vatican and the Unia, by Protopresbyter Fr. George Metallinos, esteemed Dean Emeritus of the Athens School of Theology.

http://www.synodinresistance.org/pdfs/2011/08/10/20110810aVaticanTorpedo%20Folder/20110810aVaticanTorpedo.pdf

More about Fr. George:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Metallinos

He does have credentials for sure. Yet, I was somewhat taken aback by the following in the article above: "St. Mark Eugenikos (†1444), in his famous encyclical “To Christians Everywhere in the Greek Fatherland and the Islands” (1440-1441), calls the Uniates “Greco-
Latins” and “half animal-like men,” “on the order of the centaurs in mythology.” Then nothing more about the quote. I guess he may have meant it as an example of opposition, but it seemed to me to be more propaganda than scholarly analysis.

[Schultz]

Bishop Basil is not iconic.  If he was a weak bishop, I can accept that.  Weakness is not inherently evil. God makes great things happen by using our weaknesses to the good.  I don't believe there's any basis for saying that Bishop Basil is/was anything worse than that. 

Surely you know that there are iconic bishops in our history who did things and sponsored behaviors that were objectively evil...horridly evil cronyism in fact. 
 
Should we elide that history and pretend that it and its consequences never happened?

Why I am beginning to think you are sounding like some of our Latin rite bishops and their cover-ups!!

 ...not really...but you are on the right track to get there.

M.

No, we should not cover up evil.  But I hadn't realized we had crossed over that line.  You state Metropolitan Orestes was self-willed,  I would term it strong-willed and I think it served his people well.  He steered them clear of Moscow and prevented their Russification as happened to St. Alexis' parishes.  In anycase, he is iconic and a hero for ACROD and may eventually be canonized.  Why sully that with pettiness, especially in response to an Orthodox brother who recognizes the holiness of our martyr and confessor bishops?

I think somebody better call in the devil's advocate before they canonize Met. Orestes.

elijahmaria,

I asked you previously as a poster to avoid your continued gossip about Met. Orestes, a dead man who cannot defend himself.  Unless you are willing to go on full public record and divulge these family secrets (most likely against the wishes of those who divulged them), refrain from posting these insinuations (for that is all they are) right now.  In this thread, these insinuations amount to nothing more than a, "Oh yeah?!  Well this is what your holy people do behind closed doors!" pissing contest. 

This is not an official canonization procedure and therefore no "devil's advocate" is necessary.  As such, your negative comments will not produce any good fruit and I must ask you to please cease alluding to them in the public areas.  If you want to argue with others about this, please do so in the private forum.

[elijahmaria]

Bishop Basil is not iconic.  If he was a weak bishop, I can accept that.  Weakness is not inherently evil. God makes great things happen by using our weaknesses to the good.  I don't believe there's any basis for saying that Bishop Basil is/was anything worse than that. 

Surely you know that there are iconic bishops in our history who did things and sponsored behaviors that were objectively evil...horridly evil cronyism in fact. 
 
Should we elide that history and pretend that it and its consequences never happened?

Why I am beginning to think you are sounding like some of our Latin rite bishops and their cover-ups!!

 ...not really...but you are on the right track to get there.

M.

No, we should not cover up evil.  But I hadn't realized we had crossed over that line.  You state Metropolitan Orestes was self-willed,  I would term it strong-willed and I think it served his people well.  He steered them clear of Moscow and prevented their Russification as happened to St. Alexis' parishes.  In anycase, he is iconic and a hero for ACROD and may eventually be canonized.  Why sully that with pettiness, especially in response to an Orthodox brother who recognizes the holiness of our martyr and confessor bishops?

I think somebody better call in the devil's advocate before they canonize Met. Orestes.

elijahmaria,

I asked you previously as a poster to avoid your continued gossip about Met. Orestes, a dead man who cannot defend himself.  Unless you are willing to go on full public record and divulge these family secrets (most likely against the wishes of those who divulged them), refrain from posting these insinuations (for that is all they are) right now.  In this thread, these insinuations amount to nothing more than a, "Oh yeah?!  Well this is what your holy people do behind closed doors!" pissing contest. 

This is not an official canonization procedure and therefore no "devil's advocate" is necessary.  As such, your negative comments will not produce any good fruit and I must ask you to please cease alluding to them in the public areas.  If you want to argue with others about this, please do so in the private forum.

Done...

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

The title of this thread does not sit well with me.

I do not like it either but my reasoning may differ from other EO. It seems to me that the Stalinist regime was one of the most oppressive regimes in history and harmed more Christians than any other. I just don't like it to be equated with anything else. It needs to stand alone in Satan's list of accomplishments

[Orest]

The title of this thread does not sit well with me.

I do not like it either but my reasoning may differ from other EO. It seems to me that the Stalinist regime was one of the most oppressive regimes in history and harmed more Christians than any other. I just don't like it to be equated with anything else. It needs to stand alone in Satan's list of accomplishments

Yes, you make a lot of sense. By the way I reread the article mentioned in the first post.  the author was not a church historian and I doubt he had the ability to even read any of the languages needed for research for example on the Union or lack of Union of Brest.  It is a short general article and deals mostly with the Vatican and orthodox Christians in the Middle East not in Slavic countries.  Also the poster chose the title for the thread which was a bad choice of words.

[elijahmaria]

I get the ones that actually adhere to Catholic teaching, but the ones that claim to be in full communion with Rome without holding the faith of Rome totally baffle me.

So it would seem as if the EO Church isn't the only Church in a state of disunity, the Latin Catholics have their fair share of problems to resolve with the Eastern Catholics.

Lol, but then again I'm OO! I of all people am in no position to be saying who and who isn't disunited! I mean, we OO have almost nothing to do with each other.  

God bless.

Well I am by no means an expert on how united or disunited we are. I don't know how many Eastern Catholics actually hold beliefs contrary to our beliefs. I know this is a phenomenon online amongst some Eastern Catholics, but I'm not sure how prevalent it is in real life. The majority could very well be in total doctrinal conformity with Rome for all I know. I don't have the statistics. It is quite obvious that there is not only disunity amongst the Eastern Orthodox, but there are very few absolute answers. Most questions asked of the EO are answered with a "we don't know" or "it's a pastoral issue" which is essentially saying "if you don't like the answer we give you, switch to another priest until you find one who does agree with you."

Kind of like asking, "Which papal pronouncements are ex cathedra?".  If you don't like what one priest says, you can just ask another.

Or...from the other side asking a variety of Orthodox priests which of the Catholic doctrines must I reject in order to be received into Orthodoxy.  I've never gotten the same list twice.

In all seriousness I really do think that we need to take a long look at what "shared faith" means.

M.

[Deacon Lance]

I think somebody better call in the devil's advocate before they canonize Met. Orestes.

If that is "sullying" then you have a very unique dictionary.

You may use this tactic to shut me up on the BC.forum but this group is a bit more honest than the one where you spend most of your time.

Funny that I am more welcome among the Orthodox than I am among my own:  I realize that I am defining "welcome" to include having most of my ideas rejected by many here: but I have yet to be "banned for life" or told that my vocation was "dead in the water, in this Church" because I publicly stated what many others stated in private. 

I am not aware of using any tactic to shut you up on byzcath.  And actually I probably spend more time here than there lately.  I was not aware you were banned.  I don't know you posting name there nor do I remember being consulted about banning one for some time nor am I always consulted.  What vocation is dead in the water?  Are you trying to enter a monastery?

[elijahmaria]

Bishop Basil is not iconic.  If he was a weak bishop, I can accept that.  Weakness is not inherently evil. God makes great things happen by using our weaknesses to the good.  I don't believe there's any basis for saying that Bishop Basil is/was anything worse than that. 

Surely you know that there are iconic bishops in our history who did things and sponsored behaviors that were objectively evil...horridly evil cronyism in fact. 
 
Should we elide that history and pretend that it and its consequences never happened?

Why I am beginning to think you are sounding like some of our Latin rite bishops and their cover-ups!!

 ...not really...but you are on the right track to get there.

M.

No, we should not cover up evil.  But I hadn't realized we had crossed over that line.  You state Metropolitan Orestes was self-willed,  I would term it strong-willed and I think it served his people well.  He steered them clear of Moscow and prevented their Russification as happened to St. Alexis' parishes.  In anycase, he is iconic and a hero for ACROD and may eventually be canonized.  Why sully that with pettiness, especially in response to an Orthodox brother who recognizes the holiness of our martyr and confessor bishops?

Sorry for disturbing you and podkarpatska with my thinking out loud, and expressing my opinion as strongly as I did.  It really was not meant in a mean-spirited way at all.  It is just that: an opinion.

So pardon me please:  I'll not raise the issue again.

M.

[elijahmaria]

I think somebody better call in the devil's advocate before they canonize Met. Orestes.

If that is "sullying" then you have a very unique dictionary.

You may use this tactic to shut me up on the BC.forum but this group is a bit more honest than the one where you spend most of your time.

Funny that I am more welcome among the Orthodox than I am among my own:  I realize that I am defining "welcome" to include having most of my ideas rejected by many here: but I have yet to be "banned for life" or told that my vocation was "dead in the water, in this Church" because I publicly stated what many others stated in private. 

I am not aware of using any tactic to shut you up on byzcath.  And actually I probably spend more time here than there lately.  I was not aware you were banned.  I don't know you posting name there nor do I remember being consulted about banning one for some time nor am I always consulted.  What vocation is dead in the water?  Are you trying to enter a monastery?

You're not the subject or object of my discontent...please see the note prior to this one.

As to the vocation:  I have lived the life of a penitential hermit for nearly 15 years with the aid and counsel of the same spiritual father for those years.  I would like to take religious vows as a hermit and have not only been given little help from my chancery, I was actively attacked by my pastor over the phone on several Saturdays running and in one of those awful conversations, he told me "Your vocation is dead in the water in this Church."...meaning, I suppose that he was not going to help me and would actively hinder me.

I've been offered help from the Orthodox and am about to contact the Latin rite bishop in my old diocese, since I am not going to enter Orthodoxy.  But I am holding out some hope that perhaps once we have a new Metropolitan...So I continue to hold fire and hope.

Part of the problem, for me, technically is that there is no equivalent canon in the ECC to the one in the western code for the canonical religious status of "hermit"....It was on those grounds that I was pushed away in my own Church.  Granted I never was allowed to actually speak to my bishop and I don't think the letters I wrote ever got to him either.  They have all remained unanswered including those written by my spiritual father.  This was all before the Metropolitan became so terribly and finally ill.

I had hoped to have some resolution before my spiritual father dies.  After he is gone there is no one who knows me well enough to speak for me or about my journey.

M.

[Deacon Lance]

I see.  I would suspect the problem would be that in the Eastern Churches one can only be admitted to the status of hermit by ones abbot/abbess.  One must live the cenobitic life first and usually for many years before they are judged advanced enough to live the eremitic life.  I would contact a monastery directly to affiliate as an associate.  I would recommend the Byzantine Carmel in Sugarloaf.

[elijahmaria]

I see.  I would suspect the problem would be that in the Eastern Churches one can only be admitted to the status of hermit by ones abbot/abbess.  One must live the cenobitic life first and usually for many years before they are judged advanced enough to live the eremitic life.  I would contact a monastery directly to affiliate as an associate.  I would recommend the Byzantine Carmel in Sugarloaf.

This does not seem to be the topic heading for discussing such things.  If you are so inclined perhaps you could begin a new thread. 

I don't want to talk about myself in too much detail but we could discuss things in general. 

For example, I find it interesting that you say this but none of the Orthodox bishops or monastics that I have been in contact with over the years have indicated that I would need to become a nun in community first, and they've said nothing about becoming a lay associate.   

So my initial question would be which Eastern Churches? 

And then I'd be interested in knowing if becoming a lay associate would advance the possibility of being considered as an appropriate candidate for the eremetic life in religious vows?

Mary

[Orest]

Part of the problem, for me, technically is that there is no equivalent canon in the ECC to the one in the western code for the canonical religious status of "hermit"....It was on those grounds that I was pushed away in my own Church.  Granted I never was allowed to actually speak to my bishop and I don't think the letters I wrote ever got to him either.  They have all remained unanswered including those written by my spiritual father.  This was all before the Metropolitan became so terribly and finally ill.

Is this an example of what happens when Rome creates "Eastern catholic Churches": they make up their own rules blending East & West?

[elijahmaria]

Part of the problem, for me, technically is that there is no equivalent canon in the ECC to the one in the western code for the canonical religious status of "hermit"....It was on those grounds that I was pushed away in my own Church.  Granted I never was allowed to actually speak to my bishop and I don't think the letters I wrote ever got to him either.  They have all remained unanswered including those written by my spiritual father.  This was all before the Metropolitan became so terribly and finally ill.

Is this an example of what happens when Rome creates "Eastern catholic Churches": they make up their own rules blending East & West?

Apparently not.  This apparently is an example of NOT imposing a way of being in the western Church on the east.

[Orest]

[Or...from the other side asking a variety of Orthodox priests which of the Catholic doctrines must I reject in order to be received into Orthodoxy.  I've never gotten the same list twice.

In all seriousness I really do think that we need to take a long look at what "shared faith" means.

M.

Mary, I believe that metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, before the Russian Revolution wrote an addition to or a special service for Catholics who convert to orthodoxy.  And in the service it lists Catholic beliefs that are renounced such as purgatory and so on.  Try to get hold of that service.

[elijahmaria]

[Or...from the other side asking a variety of Orthodox priests which of the Catholic doctrines must I reject in order to be received into Orthodoxy.  I've never gotten the same list twice.

In all seriousness I really do think that we need to take a long look at what "shared faith" means.

M.

Mary, I believe that metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, before the Russian Revolution wrote an addition to or a special service for Catholics who convert to orthodoxy.  And in the service it lists Catholic beliefs that are renounced such as purgatory and so on.  Try to get hold of that service.

Yes.  I have that list among my list of lists. 

M.

[ialmisry]

[Or...from the other side asking a variety of Orthodox priests which of the Catholic doctrines must I reject in order to be received into Orthodoxy.  I've never gotten the same list twice.

In all seriousness I really do think that we need to take a long look at what "shared faith" means.

M.

Mary, I believe that metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, before the Russian Revolution wrote an addition to or a special service for Catholics who convert to orthodoxy.  And in the service it lists Catholic beliefs that are renounced such as purgatory and so on.  Try to get hold of that service.

Yes.  I have that list among my list of lists. 

M.

is that your list of lists of terms of submission to the Vatican?