Author Topic: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime  (Read 14651 times)

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Offline stanley123

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #90 on: August 17, 2011, 11:32:24 AM »
Quote
Part of the problem, for me, technically is that there is no equivalent canon in the ECC to the one in the western code for the canonical religious status of "hermit"....It was on those grounds that I was pushed away in my own Church.  Granted I never was allowed to actually speak to my bishop and I don't think the letters I wrote ever got to him either.  They have all remained unanswered including those written by my spiritual father.  This was all before the Metropolitan became so terribly and finally ill.


Is this an example of what happens when Rome creates "Eastern catholic Churches": they make up their own rules blending East & West?
How would this differ from the Eastern Orthodox Churches when they create the Western rite Orthodox and make up their own rules blending East and West?

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #91 on: August 17, 2011, 11:49:02 AM »
Quote
Part of the problem, for me, technically is that there is no equivalent canon in the ECC to the one in the western code for the canonical religious status of "hermit"....It was on those grounds that I was pushed away in my own Church.  Granted I never was allowed to actually speak to my bishop and I don't think the letters I wrote ever got to him either.  They have all remained unanswered including those written by my spiritual father.  This was all before the Metropolitan became so terribly and finally ill.


Is this an example of what happens when Rome creates "Eastern catholic Churches": they make up their own rules blending East & West?
How would this differ from the Eastern Orthodox Churches when they create the Western rite Orthodox and make up their own rules blending East and West?
The WRO "blend" to weed out heresy and restore to Orthodoxy, and even then, that is not necessarily done: the Antiochian WRO borrow the epiclesis from the rite of Constantinople to make it explicite, but ROCOR takes the epiclesis from the Gallican missal IIRC (ALL Western missals except the Roman have a full and explicit epiclesis).

The Vatican, in contrast, promulgates a Code of canon law, for instance, in Latin, for the Eastern Churches, which mold them into the theoretical model Ultramontanism imagines for the other patriarchates, which has no basis in history or practice.  That's the purpose of the CCEO, to put Ultramontanist theory into practice so it can enter history, and develop a history.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline Orest

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #92 on: August 17, 2011, 12:03:41 PM »
Quote
Part of the problem, for me, technically is that there is no equivalent canon in the ECC to the one in the western code for the canonical religious status of "hermit"....It was on those grounds that I was pushed away in my own Church.  Granted I never was allowed to actually speak to my bishop and I don't think the letters I wrote ever got to him either.  They have all remained unanswered including those written by my spiritual father.  This was all before the Metropolitan became so terribly and finally ill.


Is this an example of what happens when Rome creates "Eastern catholic Churches": they make up their own rules blending East & West?
How would this differ from the Eastern Orthodox Churches when they create the Western rite Orthodox and make up their own rules blending East and West?
Stanley I agree with you.  Both are wrong.

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2011, 12:22:31 PM »
Quote
Part of the problem, for me, technically is that there is no equivalent canon in the ECC to the one in the western code for the canonical religious status of "hermit"....It was on those grounds that I was pushed away in my own Church.  Granted I never was allowed to actually speak to my bishop and I don't think the letters I wrote ever got to him either.  They have all remained unanswered including those written by my spiritual father.  This was all before the Metropolitan became so terribly and finally ill.


Is this an example of what happens when Rome creates "Eastern catholic Churches": they make up their own rules blending East & West?
How would this differ from the Eastern Orthodox Churches when they create the Western rite Orthodox and make up their own rules blending East and West?
Stanley I agree with you.  Both are wrong.
I'd ask you how Orthodoxy is wrong, but I wonder if it would derail the thread.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #94 on: August 17, 2011, 12:24:50 PM »
Quote
Part of the problem, for me, technically is that there is no equivalent canon in the ECC to the one in the western code for the canonical religious status of "hermit"....It was on those grounds that I was pushed away in my own Church.  Granted I never was allowed to actually speak to my bishop and I don't think the letters I wrote ever got to him either.  They have all remained unanswered including those written by my spiritual father.  This was all before the Metropolitan became so terribly and finally ill.


Is this an example of what happens when Rome creates "Eastern catholic Churches": they make up their own rules blending East & West?
How would this differ from the Eastern Orthodox Churches when they create the Western rite Orthodox and make up their own rules blending East and West?
The WRO "blend" to weed out heresy and restore to Orthodoxy, and even then, that is not necessarily done: the Antiochian WRO borrow the epiclesis from the rite of Constantinople to make it explicite, but ROCOR takes the epiclesis from the Gallican missal IIRC (ALL Western missals except the Roman have a full and explicit epiclesis).

The Vatican, in contrast, promulgates a Code of canon law, for instance, in Latin, for the Eastern Churches, which mold them into the theoretical model Ultramontanism imagines for the other patriarchates, which has no basis in history or practice.  That's the purpose of the CCEO, to put Ultramontanist theory into practice so it can enter history, and develop a history.

Yes.  And as the eastern Catholic Patriarchs emerge so will a distinct set of canons.   At that point there may be even more explicit canons added to the western code.

Till then you will impatiently and uncharitably rail against it all.

Reunion with Orthodoxy would hasten that process.

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #95 on: August 17, 2011, 12:38:50 PM »
Quote
Part of the problem, for me, technically is that there is no equivalent canon in the ECC to the one in the western code for the canonical religious status of "hermit"....It was on those grounds that I was pushed away in my own Church.  Granted I never was allowed to actually speak to my bishop and I don't think the letters I wrote ever got to him either.  They have all remained unanswered including those written by my spiritual father.  This was all before the Metropolitan became so terribly and finally ill.


Is this an example of what happens when Rome creates "Eastern catholic Churches": they make up their own rules blending East & West?
How would this differ from the Eastern Orthodox Churches when they create the Western rite Orthodox and make up their own rules blending East and West?
The WRO "blend" to weed out heresy and restore to Orthodoxy, and even then, that is not necessarily done: the Antiochian WRO borrow the epiclesis from the rite of Constantinople to make it explicite, but ROCOR takes the epiclesis from the Gallican missal IIRC (ALL Western missals except the Roman have a full and explicit epiclesis).

The Vatican, in contrast, promulgates a Code of canon law, for instance, in Latin, for the Eastern Churches, which mold them into the theoretical model Ultramontanism imagines for the other patriarchates, which has no basis in history or practice.  That's the purpose of the CCEO, to put Ultramontanist theory into practice so it can enter history, and develop a history.

Yes.  And as the eastern Catholic Patriarchs emerge so will a distinct set of canons.
Emerge?  They started emerging in around 33-70.

At that point there may be even more explicit canons added to the western code.
A "Western" code and an "Eastern" code are innovations unknown to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, before or after 1054.

Till then you will impatiently and uncharitably rail against it all.
how long it takes heresy to organize itself isn't my concern, so neither patience nor charity has anything to do with it.

Reunion with Orthodoxy would hasten that process.
Catholic Church=Orthodoxy.  And we have no interest in playing a role your fantasies: good tissue grafted into those weasy, TB lungs won't resuscitate that sick old man.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #96 on: August 17, 2011, 03:12:15 PM »

Emerge?  They started emerging in around 33-70.


Right: and in good Apostolic fashion, consensus was nearly impossible to achieve.  We've been struggling with it ever since:  the west in the wider world of peoples:  the east in their little ethnic enclaves.

I am amused by the fact that you think cramped, wizened, philetic lungs are somehow healthier than the lungs of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

M.

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #97 on: August 17, 2011, 03:54:37 PM »

Emerge?  They started emerging in around 33-70.


Right: and in good Apostolic fashion, consensus was nearly impossible to achieve.


We've been struggling with it ever since:  the west in the wider world of peoples:  the east in their little ethnic enclaves.
Yes, the Vatican went wherever the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisistions could stamp out the local languages and make them adopt Latin and its derivatives.

But Russia alone did a good job matching, without stamping out the locals:

it doesn't show the expansion of the Patriarchate of Moscow into California

or Finmark/Norway

nor the Church of Japan.

and we'll leave out the North Pole

and the south pole

And then there's the Pope (the real and original one) of All Africa, whose Holy Synod has bishops from Cape to Cairo.

and without a single empire taking up the sword to spread its creed.
and the Patriarch of Antioch, and All the East (that is, as far east as India), etc. etc. etc.

I am amused by the fact that you think cramped, wizened, philetic lungs are somehow healthier than the lungs of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
those cramped, wizened philetic Latin lungs are nowhere as healthy as the lungs of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church connected to a myriad of tongues..
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #98 on: August 17, 2011, 04:51:21 PM »
Yepper boss!!

And you still cannot really address the huge difference in numbers or the fact that Orthodoxy, in reality, appears to be shrinking...or that, for example, half of the Catholics who convert to Orthodoxy eventually leave.

So you get all the face time you want here but in reality you are signifying nothing beside the sound and fury:  Pretty noise if you're into that sort of thing.

M.

Offline stanley123

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #99 on: August 17, 2011, 04:55:11 PM »
Yepper boss!!

And you still cannot really address the huge difference in numbers or the fact that Orthodoxy, in reality, appears to be shrinking...or that, for example, half of the Catholics who convert to Orthodoxy eventually leave.

So you get all the face time you want here but in reality you are signifying nothing beside the sound and fury:  Pretty noise if you're into that sort of thing.

M.
I rather like many of the images he has posted.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #100 on: August 17, 2011, 05:03:57 PM »
Yepper boss!!

And you still cannot really address the huge difference in numbers or the fact that Orthodoxy, in reality, appears to be shrinking...or that, for example, half of the Catholics who convert to Orthodoxy eventually leave.

So you get all the face time you want here but in reality you are signifying nothing beside the sound and fury:  Pretty noise if you're into that sort of thing.

M.
I rather like many of the images he has posted.

 :)  That's why I called it "pretty" noise...

Offline Orthodoc

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #101 on: August 17, 2011, 05:30:13 PM »
Yepper boss!!

And you still cannot really address the huge difference in numbers or the fact that Orthodoxy, in reality, appears to be shrinking...or that, for example, half of the Catholics who convert to Orthodoxy eventually leave.

So you get all the face time you want here but in reality you are signifying nothing beside the sound and fury:  Pretty noise if you're into that sort of thing.

M.

Orthodoxy is shrinking and half of Roman Catholics who convert to Orthodoxy tend to leave?  Would you mind providing statistics to back up both statements?  Are you talking about the U.S. or worldwide? 
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Offline WetCatechumen

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #102 on: August 17, 2011, 08:07:44 PM »
those cramped, wizened philetic Latin lungs are nowhere as healthy as the lungs of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church connected to a myriad of tongues..
You don't get to claim the miaphysites as your own.

Sorry. Orthodoxy is a Greek Rite only club (yeah, WRO exists, but come on. It's about as big as Anglican Use Catholicism. They're converting by the DOZENS!).

And I have been to Mass in Syriac, Slavonic, Latin, English, and Spanish. Greek Rite (Slavonic, English, and Spanish), Maronite Syriac Rite (Syriac and English), and Roman Rite (Latin, English, and Spanish). And there are tons more.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 08:12:07 PM by WetCatechumen »
"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence

Offline Severian

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #103 on: August 17, 2011, 08:12:14 PM »
You don't get to claim the miaphysites as your own.
(Speaking as a miaphysite) Sorry, I'm not sure I follow, could you please clarify?
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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #104 on: August 17, 2011, 08:30:16 PM »
Yepper boss!!

And you still cannot really address the huge difference in numbers

Sure I can:








Vermine do have a tendency to multiply and spread.

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom."

btw,
or the fact that Orthodoxy, in reality, appears to be shrinking...
you have been long on asserting that and very short on documenting it.

Well, we're shriking, are we?  Well, then, you need not bother with us insignificant folk.  Leave us alone and don't include us in your union fantasies.

or that, for example, half of the Catholics who convert to Orthodoxy eventually leave.
Catholics can't convert to Orthodoxy.  by definition, they're in.

As for the Vatican, better than all of the dogs going back to their vomit, or the whole herd of washed sows going back into its mire.

So you get all the face time you want here but in reality you are signifying nothing beside the sound and fury:  Pretty noise if you're into that sort of thing.
Better than that drum beat out of the Vatican.

In the last days, the Church will dwindle to nothing, to prepare for the Second Coming.  If we are living in the last days, who am I to dispute it?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 08:49:39 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online ialmisry

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #105 on: August 17, 2011, 08:37:55 PM »
Yepper boss!!

And you still cannot really address the huge difference in numbers or the fact that Orthodoxy, in reality, appears to be shrinking...or that, for example, half of the Catholics who convert to Orthodoxy eventually leave.

So you get all the face time you want here but in reality you are signifying nothing beside the sound and fury:  Pretty noise if you're into that sort of thing.

M.
I rather like many of the images he has posted.

 :)  That's why I called it "pretty" noise...
you're into pretty colors
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #106 on: August 17, 2011, 08:39:34 PM »
Yepper boss!!

And you still cannot really address the huge difference in numbers or the fact that Orthodoxy, in reality, appears to be shrinking...or that, for example, half of the Catholics who convert to Orthodoxy eventually leave.

So you get all the face time you want here but in reality you are signifying nothing beside the sound and fury:  Pretty noise if you're into that sort of thing.

M.
I rather like many of the images he has posted.

 :)  That's why I called it "pretty" noise...
you're into pretty colors


That's quite a collection of kool-aid you have there, sir. I'm going to have to ask that you pull over. :police:
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #107 on: August 17, 2011, 08:42:50 PM »
those cramped, wizened philetic Latin lungs are nowhere as healthy as the lungs of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church connected to a myriad of tongues..
You don't get to claim the miaphysites as your own.
They say otherwise, and that's between us and them.  When we want the your opinion of that matter, we'll give it to you.

Sorry. Orthodoxy is a Greek Rite only club (yeah, WRO exists, but come on. It's about as big as Anglican Use Catholicism. They're converting by the DOZENS!).

And I have been to Mass in Syriac, Slavonic, Latin, English, and Spanish. Greek Rite (Slavonic, English, and Spanish), Maronite Syriac Rite (Syriac and English), and Roman Rite (Latin, English, and Spanish). And there are tons more.
That's nice.  I've been to divine liturgy in English, Slavonic, Slovak, Polish, Bulgarian, Greek, Arabic, Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Spanish, Latin, Romanian, Serbian, Finnish, Ukrainian, and I haven't exhausted them by far.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Aindriú

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #108 on: August 17, 2011, 08:44:53 PM »
They say otherwise, and that's between us and them.  When we want the your opinion of that matter, we'll give it to you.

sigh


I'm going to need this.

Offline stanley123

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #109 on: August 17, 2011, 08:45:22 PM »
those cramped, wizened philetic Latin lungs are nowhere as healthy as the lungs of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church connected to a myriad of tongues..
You don't get to claim the miaphysites as your own.
They say otherwise, and that's between us and them.  When we want the your opinion of that matter, we'll give it to you.

Sorry. Orthodoxy is a Greek Rite only club (yeah, WRO exists, but come on. It's about as big as Anglican Use Catholicism. They're converting by the DOZENS!).

And I have been to Mass in Syriac, Slavonic, Latin, English, and Spanish. Greek Rite (Slavonic, English, and Spanish), Maronite Syriac Rite (Syriac and English), and Roman Rite (Latin, English, and Spanish). And there are tons more.
That's nice.  I've been to divine liturgy in English, Slavonic, Slovak, Polish, Bulgarian, Greek, Arabic, Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Spanish, Latin, Romanian, Serbian, Finnish, Ukrainian, and I haven't exhausted them by far.
I didn't know they celebrated Divine Liturgy in Latin. Where would this be? I'd like to attend.

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #110 on: August 17, 2011, 08:52:14 PM »
They say otherwise, and that's between us and them.  When we want the your opinion of that matter, we'll give it to you.

sigh


then come and be a happy panda
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #111 on: August 17, 2011, 09:06:24 PM »


Well, we're shriking, are we?  Well, then, you need not bother with us insignificant folk.  Leave us alone and don't include us in your union fantasies.


Unfortunately the present Masters of my Church have decided that I have to be kind to you no matter how crappy you are to me and mine.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

So you show up in my realities which is a whole lot worse than any fantasy...ya know...

 :laugh:

Offline WetCatechumen

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #112 on: August 17, 2011, 09:18:20 PM »
those cramped, wizened philetic Latin lungs are nowhere as healthy as the lungs of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church connected to a myriad of tongues..
You don't get to claim the miaphysites as your own.
They say otherwise, and that's between us and them.  When we want the your opinion of that matter, we'll give it to you.

Sorry. Orthodoxy is a Greek Rite only club (yeah, WRO exists, but come on. It's about as big as Anglican Use Catholicism. They're converting by the DOZENS!).

And I have been to Mass in Syriac, Slavonic, Latin, English, and Spanish. Greek Rite (Slavonic, English, and Spanish), Maronite Syriac Rite (Syriac and English), and Roman Rite (Latin, English, and Spanish). And there are tons more.
That's nice.  I've been to divine liturgy in English, Slavonic, Slovak, Polish, Bulgarian, Greek, Arabic, Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Spanish, Latin, Romanian, Serbian, Finnish, Ukrainian, and I haven't exhausted them by far.

When your hierarchs and theirs concelebrate, or there is a synod in which you acknowledge each other to be orthodox, give me a call.

Otherwise don't spout things that aren't true but you wish are true.
"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #113 on: August 17, 2011, 09:19:34 PM »


Well, we're shriking, are we?  Well, then, you need not bother with us insignificant folk.  Leave us alone and don't include us in your union fantasies.


Unfortunately the present Masters of my Church have decided that I have to be kind to you no matter how crappy you are to me and mine.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
well, no one can serve two masters. Ours told us to shake the dust off our feet.

So you show up in my realities which is a whole lot worse than any fantasy...ya know...

 :laugh:
Your "reality" is a worse case fantasy.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Severian

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #114 on: August 17, 2011, 09:21:25 PM »
When your hierarchs and theirs concelebrate, or there is a synod in which you acknowledge each other to be orthodox, give me a call.

Otherwise don't spout things that aren't true but you wish are true.
Actually, the EOs and OOs have concelebrated before.
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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #115 on: August 17, 2011, 09:23:11 PM »
those cramped, wizened philetic Latin lungs are nowhere as healthy as the lungs of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church connected to a myriad of tongues..
You don't get to claim the miaphysites as your own.
They say otherwise, and that's between us and them.  When we want the your opinion of that matter, we'll give it to you.

Sorry. Orthodoxy is a Greek Rite only club (yeah, WRO exists, but come on. It's about as big as Anglican Use Catholicism. They're converting by the DOZENS!).

And I have been to Mass in Syriac, Slavonic, Latin, English, and Spanish. Greek Rite (Slavonic, English, and Spanish), Maronite Syriac Rite (Syriac and English), and Roman Rite (Latin, English, and Spanish). And there are tons more.
That's nice.  I've been to divine liturgy in English, Slavonic, Slovak, Polish, Bulgarian, Greek, Arabic, Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Spanish, Latin, Romanian, Serbian, Finnish, Ukrainian, and I haven't exhausted them by far.

When your hierarchs and theirs concelebrate, or there is a synod in which you acknowledge each other to be orthodox, give me a call.
why would we call you?
Otherwise don't spout things that aren't true but you wish are true.
I have taken communion from the Syriac Patriarch's own hand, he knowing that I am EO. I could go on, but then it's none of your business and doesn't concern you.
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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #116 on: August 17, 2011, 09:37:04 PM »

Emerge?  They started emerging in around 33-70.


Right: and in good Apostolic fashion, consensus was nearly impossible to achieve.  We've been struggling with it ever since:  the west in the wider world of peoples:  the east in their little ethnic enclaves.

I am amused by the fact that you think cramped, wizened, philetic lungs are somehow healthier than the lungs of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

M.
Considering that until Pope John Paul II there hadn't been a non-Italian pope for centuries and that the median age of modern popes has been around social security age, that comment about 'cramped, wizened, philetic lungs' is tough to take without a chuckle from our side.

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #117 on: August 17, 2011, 09:44:17 PM »
I have taken communion from the Syriac Patriarch's own hand, he knowing that I am EO. I could go on, but then it's none of your business and doesn't concern you.
Well then why is it any of your business if R. Catholics dance, sing, clap hands and sway to and fro during their liturgies, when the Orthodox do the same thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAqsE334akY

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #118 on: August 17, 2011, 09:56:56 PM »
I have taken communion from the Syriac Patriarch's own hand, he knowing that I am EO. I could go on, but then it's none of your business and doesn't concern you.
Well then why is it any of your business if R. Catholics dance, sing, clap hands and sway to and fro during their liturgies, when the Orthodox do the same thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAqsE334akY
First of all those people are OO, so that you'll have to take up with us. ;)

But I think that's just a part of their cultrue, whereas in Catholicism these liturgical reforms are for the sake conforming to modern-day society.
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -The Lord Jesus

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #119 on: August 17, 2011, 10:33:23 PM »
I have taken communion from the Syriac Patriarch's own hand, he knowing that I am EO. I could go on, but then it's none of your business and doesn't concern you.
Well then why is it any of your business if R. Catholics dance, sing, clap hands and sway to and fro during their liturgies, when the Orthodox do the same thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAqsE334akY
First of all those people are OO, so that you'll have to take up with us. ;)

But I think that's just a part of their cultrue, whereas in Catholicism these liturgical reforms are for the sake conforming to modern-day society.
Are you sure that they are OO? What group are they with? Are they in communion with the EO or not?
Anyway, you seem to justify this dancing, singing, clapping of hands and swaying to and fro  by saying that it is part of their culture. But it is true, isn't it, that "modern-day" western society is part of the culture of many Roman Catholics?

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #120 on: August 17, 2011, 10:46:25 PM »
Are you sure that they are OO? What group are they with? Are they in communion with the EO or not?
Anyway, you seem to justify this dancing, singing, clapping of hands and swaying to and fro  by saying that it is part of their culture. But it is true, isn't it, that "modern-day" western society is part of the culture of many Roman Catholics?
Yes, I am sure they are OO because the priest is wearing Coptic vestments and in the background you can see a picture of HH Pope Shenouda. No, these people are not in communion with the EO, no OO bishops are in communion with EO bishops. Or at least, not yet.

Secondly, these people are simply worshipping the way their ancestors did, but in an Orthodox Christian liturgical setting. As opposed to the RCC, where traditional liturgics are seeing a Protestantization. I don't write this post in a polemical spirit, I am merely trying to answer your question to the best of my abilities.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 10:51:35 PM by Severian »
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The Saviour is made of elements which are distinct from one another yet He is not two Persons. God forbid! For both natures are one by the combination. -St. Gregory Nazianzen

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #121 on: August 17, 2011, 10:58:22 PM »
Are you sure that they are OO? What group are they with? Are they in communion with the EO or not?
Anyway, you seem to justify this dancing, singing, clapping of hands and swaying to and fro  by saying that it is part of their culture. But it is true, isn't it, that "modern-day" western society is part of the culture of many Roman Catholics?
Yes, I am sure they are OO because the priest is wearing Coptic vestments and in the background you can see a picture of HH Pope Shenouda. No, these people are not in communion with the EO, no OO bishops are in communion with EO bishops. Or at least, not yet.

Secondly, these people are simply worshipping the way their ancestors did, but in an Orthodox Christian liturgical setting. As opposed to the RCC, where traditional liturgics are seeing a Protestantization. I don't write this post in a polemical spirit, I am merely trying to answer your question to the best of my abilities.

Yes, I see now that they are Coptic Orthodox. Do you object to their style of worship or would the EO Church object to their style of worship in the case of a reunion?

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #122 on: August 17, 2011, 11:02:22 PM »
Are you sure that they are OO? What group are they with? Are they in communion with the EO or not?
Anyway, you seem to justify this dancing, singing, clapping of hands and swaying to and fro  by saying that it is part of their culture. But it is true, isn't it, that "modern-day" western society is part of the culture of many Roman Catholics?
Yes, I am sure they are OO because the priest is wearing Coptic vestments and in the background you can see a picture of HH Pope Shenouda. No, these people are not in communion with the EO, no OO bishops are in communion with EO bishops. Or at least, not yet.

Secondly, these people are simply worshipping the way their ancestors did, but in an Orthodox Christian liturgical setting. As opposed to the RCC, where traditional liturgics are seeing a Protestantization. I don't write this post in a polemical spirit, I am merely trying to answer your question to the best of my abilities.

Yes, I see now that they are Coptic Orthodox. Do you object to their style of worship or would the EO Church object to their style of worship in the case of a reunion?

I should hope that Severian doesn't object, since he's in communion with them, being Coptic Orthodox.

As for me, I wouldn't object to that style of worship, in the event of union.
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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #123 on: August 17, 2011, 11:05:26 PM »
Yes, I see now that they are Coptic Orthodox. Do you object to their style of worship or would the EO Church object to their style of worship in the case of a reunion?
I am not used to that culture and that form of worship, so it is fairly new to me. I love the Ethiopian/Eritrean Orthodox worship where the faithful play drums, dance, clap, etc. (like in this video), and that's because that is the traditional worship style of my Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox brothers, so I assume the same applies within the Orthodox community in Nairobi. As per the EOs objecting to it, I am not sure, sorry. But overall, no, I do not object to that form of worship.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 11:06:23 PM by Severian »
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -The Lord Jesus

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #124 on: August 17, 2011, 11:30:53 PM »
Yes, I see now that they are Coptic Orthodox. Do you object to their style of worship or would the EO Church object to their style of worship in the case of a reunion?
I am not used to that culture and that form of worship, so it is fairly new to me. I love the Ethiopian/Eritrean Orthodox worship where the faithful play drums, dance, clap, etc. (like in this video), and that's because that is the traditional worship style of my Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox brothers, so I assume the same applies within the Orthodox community in Nairobi. As per the EOs objecting to it, I am not sure, sorry. But overall, no, I do not object to that form of worship.
somewhere here we have a thread with the local EO bishop or Pope Parthenios or Theodore, I don't recall which, with a congregation of EO Kenyans, similarly with drums.  HH didn't seem to object.
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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #125 on: August 17, 2011, 11:53:36 PM »

Emerge?  They started emerging in around 33-70.


Right: and in good Apostolic fashion, consensus was nearly impossible to achieve.  We've been struggling with it ever since:  the west in the wider world of peoples:  the east in their little ethnic enclaves.

I am amused by the fact that you think cramped, wizened, philetic lungs are somehow healthier than the lungs of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

M.
Considering that until Pope John Paul II there hadn't been a non-Italian pope for centuries and that the median age of modern popes has been around social security age, that comment about 'cramped, wizened, philetic lungs' is tough to take without a chuckle from our side.

The pope is ONE person.  The Catholic Church is diverse and HUGE.  If you could say that ALL bishops or even MOST bishops were Italian for centuries, you might get my attention.

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #126 on: August 18, 2011, 12:02:18 AM »
Yes, I see now that they are Coptic Orthodox. Do you object to their style of worship or would the EO Church object to their style of worship in the case of a reunion?
I am not used to that culture and that form of worship, so it is fairly new to me. I love the Ethiopian/Eritrean Orthodox worship where the faithful play drums, dance, clap, etc. (like in this video), and that's because that is the traditional worship style of my Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox brothers, so I assume the same applies within the Orthodox community in Nairobi. As per the EOs objecting to it, I am not sure, sorry. But overall, no, I do not object to that form of worship.
somewhere here we have a thread with the local EO bishop or Pope Parthenios or Theodore, I don't recall which, with a congregation of EO Kenyans, similarly with drums.  HH didn't seem to object.
So dancing, singing and clapping and swaying to  and fro during liturgy are OK for EO, but not for R. Catholics.

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #127 on: August 18, 2011, 01:24:11 AM »

Emerge?  They started emerging in around 33-70.


Right: and in good Apostolic fashion, consensus was nearly impossible to achieve.  We've been struggling with it ever since:  the west in the wider world of peoples:  the east in their little ethnic enclaves.

I am amused by the fact that you think cramped, wizened, philetic lungs are somehow healthier than the lungs of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

M.
Considering that until Pope John Paul II there hadn't been a non-Italian pope for centuries and that the median age of modern popes has been around social security age, that comment about 'cramped, wizened, philetic lungs' is tough to take without a chuckle from our side.

The pope is ONE person.  The Catholic Church is diverse and HUGE.  If you could say that ALL bishops or even MOST bishops were Italian for centuries, you might get my attention.

But the pope is the only Roman Catholic bishop who is considreed 'Vicar of Christ on earth' and infallible in matters of faith Mary.

So it's immaterial what other RC bishops think when it comes to what the RC faithful are required to believe.
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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #128 on: August 18, 2011, 01:33:07 AM »


Well, we're shriking, are we?  Well, then, you need not bother with us insignificant folk.  Leave us alone and don't include us in your union fantasies.


Unfortunately the present Masters of my Church have decided that I have to be kind to you no matter how crappy you are to me and mine.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

So you show up in my realities which is a whole lot worse than any fantasy...ya know...

 :laugh:

Guess I better not hold my breath while waiting for statistical backup on the shrinking Orthodox Catholic Church.  Maybe you are talking about those within your own church who still suffer from an identity crisis after 400+ years and call themselves 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'!

Mary, you come out looking like you are blowing smoke out of your mouth (or other appendages)  when you make statements like this and are unanable to back them up.

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« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 01:38:21 AM by Orthodoc »
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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #129 on: August 18, 2011, 01:41:01 AM »


Well, we're shriking, are we?  Well, then, you need not bother with us insignificant folk.  Leave us alone and don't include us in your union fantasies.


Unfortunately the present Masters of my Church have decided that I have to be kind to you no matter how crappy you are to me and mine.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

So you show up in my realities which is a whole lot worse than any fantasy...ya know...

 :laugh:

Guess I better not hold my breath while waiting for statistical backup on the shrinking Orthodox Catholic Church.  Maybe you are talking about those within your own church who still suffer from an identity crisis after 400+ years and call themselves 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'!

Mary, you come out looking like you are blowing smoke out of your mouth (or other appendages)  when you make statements like this and are unanable to back them up.

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I am still waiting to find out where I can attend a Divine Liturgy in Latin as an Orthodox poster stated in post # 107.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 01:42:17 AM by stanley123 »

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #130 on: August 18, 2011, 01:44:48 AM »

Or...from the other side asking a variety of Orthodox priests which of the Catholic doctrines must I reject in order to be received into Orthodoxy.  I've never gotten the same list twice.


Because none of us keep any such list in our head.   It's the same if you ask a Roman Catholic priest.   Off the top of their heads they will tell you there are requirements about various beliefs which are quite wrong since the Eastern Catholics are not required to hold them.  Purgatory is one obvious example.

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #131 on: August 18, 2011, 01:46:56 AM »


Well, we're shriking, are we?  Well, then, you need not bother with us insignificant folk.  Leave us alone and don't include us in your union fantasies.


Unfortunately the present Masters of my Church have decided that I have to be kind to you no matter how crappy you are to me and mine.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

So you show up in my realities which is a whole lot worse than any fantasy...ya know...

 :laugh:

Guess I better not hold my breath while waiting for statistical backup on the shrinking Orthodox Catholic Church.  Maybe you are talking about those within your own church who still suffer from an identity crisis after 400+ years and call themselves 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'!

Mary, you come out looking like you are blowing smoke out of your mouth (or other appendages)  when you make statements like this and are unanable to back them up.

Orthodox
I am still waiting to find out where I can attend a Divine Liturgy in Latin as an Orthodox poster stated in post # 107.

Ask the person directly who made the statement.  I've only heard the Divine Liturgy done entirely in Latin once whch was many years ago.  It was done by a former RC piest who converted to Orthodoxy as a one time thing.

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #132 on: August 18, 2011, 02:08:50 AM »
I did a search regarding the Orthodox Divine Liturgy in Latin and was forwarded to 'Catholic Answers' of all places!  Haven't been there since I was one of the original thirteen or so Orthodox Catholics kicked off for eternity!

looks like you will have to go to Turin, Italy -

==================================================

And here you go... 

The Latin version of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, translated by Erasmus of Rotterdam, and made available especially for you by those pesky Orthodox in Turin...

http://www.ortodossia.org/sanmassimo...-sez2-art1.htm
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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #133 on: August 18, 2011, 02:12:39 AM »
I did a search regarding the Orthodox Divine Liturgy in Latin and was forwarded to 'Catholic Answers' of all places!  Haven't been there since I was one of the original thirteen or so Orthodox Catholics kicked off for eternity!

looks like you will have to go to Turin, Italy -

==================================================

And here you go... 

The Latin version of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, translated by Erasmus of Rotterdam, and made available especially for you by those pesky Orthodox in Turin...

http://www.ortodossia.org/sanmassimo...-sez2-art1.htm
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I clicked on the link and got: "This page cannot be found."

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Re: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime
« Reply #134 on: August 18, 2011, 02:25:16 AM »

Emerge?  They started emerging in around 33-70.


Right: and in good Apostolic fashion, consensus was nearly impossible to achieve.  We've been struggling with it ever since:  the west in the wider world of peoples:  the east in their little ethnic enclaves.

I am amused by the fact that you think cramped, wizened, philetic lungs are somehow healthier than the lungs of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

M.
Considering that until Pope John Paul II there hadn't been a non-Italian pope for centuries and that the median age of modern popes has been around social security age, that comment about 'cramped, wizened, philetic lungs' is tough to take without a chuckle from our side.

The pope is ONE person.  The Catholic Church is diverse and HUGE.  If you could say that ALL bishops or even MOST bishops were Italian for centuries, you might get my attention.
How about the cardinals and curia, the only bishops, besides your ueber-bishop, who count?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth