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Author Topic: Where does the Orthodox Church stand on divorce and remarriage?  (Read 7137 times) Average Rating: 0
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Xenia1918
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« on: August 11, 2011, 08:00:18 AM »

When I first became a (Traditional) Roman Catholic in the 1970s, one of the things that attracted me to that church was their uncompromising stand against divorce/remarriage.

Now I find out that the Orthodox Church supposedly allows divorce and remarriage, and not only in cases of fornication (which is the only circumstance Christ allows it for.)

I need to know if this is, in fact, correct. I did a search on it and got old links and conflicting info.
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 08:05:02 AM »

Dear Xenia,

You will find the grounds for divorce clearly given in this message

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18990.msg279933.html#msg279933
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 08:10:44 AM »

Dear Xenia,

You will find the grounds for divorce clearly given in this message

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18990.msg279933.html#msg279933

Thanks for that! Hmm, I'm kind of disappointed now; the only ground given in Scripture is fornication, and also there is what RCs call the Pauline Privilege; that list seems to include a lot of other things in addition.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 08:11:39 AM by Xenia1918 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 08:14:34 AM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??Dont religious people say until death we part???

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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2011, 08:24:35 AM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??

Seems like a legit reason to me. It can be extremely difficult living with someone that has a serious mental illness (I know from experience... I being the one with the illness, my wife being the one that had to deal with me).

Quote
Dont religious people say until death we part???

I didn't, no. Though I certainly never planned on divorcing... I didn't need to say a vow at the wedding ceremony to commit for the long haul. But things change, and sometimes people choose to go down different paths... just how life goes... Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2011, 08:26:07 AM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??Dont religious people say until death we part???

 Shocked

If a husband were to contract syphilis then it if is untreated and reaches the third stage he is quite likely to have severely impaired brain function.  This can include all sorts of ghastly things but it can also mean an inability to even recognise his wife.

Under such circumstances the Church would grant a divorce to the wife if she wishes to marry a second husband who will care for her and the children .

Divorces for mental illness are given in severe and incurable cases.
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2011, 08:37:56 AM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??Dont religious people say until death we part???

 Shocked

If a husband were to contract syphilis then it if is untreated and reaches the third stage he is quite likely to have severely impaired brain function.  This can include all sorts of ghastly things but it can also mean an inability to even recognise his wife.

Under such circumstances the Church would grant a divorce to the wife if she wishes to marry a second husband who will care for her and the children .

Divorces for mental illness are given in severe and incurable cases.

yeah preciseley when people need there partner the most.... is when they get abandoned and backed up by the church

so what vows do you take exactly??

and secondley....she doesnt need someone to care for her and the children. Women have been perfectly capable to care for themself and their kids on their own for a while now .......thanks.....single women can even have kids without a bloke even around and still manage......GASP!!!!.....and adopt kids as well  Shocked all by themselves
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 08:44:31 AM by Poppy » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2011, 08:58:07 AM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??Dont religious people say until death we part???

 Shocked

If a husband were to contract syphilis then it if is untreated and reaches the third stage he is quite likely to have severely impaired brain function.  This can include all sorts of ghastly things but it can also mean an inability to even recognise his wife.

Under such circumstances the Church would grant a divorce to the wife if she wishes to marry a second husband who will care for her and the children .

Divorces for mental illness are given in severe and incurable cases.

yeah preciseley when people need there partner the most.... is when they get abandoned and backed up by the church

so what vows do you take exactly??

and secondley....she doesnt need someone to care for her and the children. Women have been perfectly capable to care for themself and their kids on their own for a while now .......thanks.....single women can even have kids without a bloke even around and still manage......GASP!!!!.....and adopt kids as well  Shocked all by themselves

There is not the slightest compulsion on a husband or wife to initiate a divorce.. - just  the opposite.   The diocese does not send out divorce police - "Good morning, Mr Smith, the neighbours say your wife is infertile.  We'll take you down to the office to file for divorce."

"Good evening, Mrs Brown,  do you know your husband has been having an adulterous affairfor the last two years.  Here are the divorce papers to sign."

No, the Church makes no such demands, but it does demand that its priests make solid efforts to assist marriages in trouble.    A priest must supply his own written report as part of the application to the church divorce court and if it judges that he has been slack in his work in this area, then it will be bad for him.

In many cases, a couple will be happy enough not to have children and the impotence/infertility is not a problem.  In many cases a husband or wife will forgive an adulterous partner and their marriage can be rebuilt.

It's never black and white.

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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2011, 09:04:01 AM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??Dont religious people say until death we part???

 Shocked

If a husband were to contract syphilis then it if is untreated and reaches the third stage he is quite likely to have severely impaired brain function.  This can include all sorts of ghastly things but it can also mean an inability to even recognise his wife.

Under such circumstances the Church would grant a divorce to the wife if she wishes to marry a second husband who will care for her and the children .

Divorces for mental illness are given in severe and incurable cases.

yeah preciseley when people need there partner the most.... is when they get abandoned and backed up by the church

so what vows do you take exactly??

and secondley....she doesnt need someone to care for her and the children. Women have been perfectly capable to care for themself and their kids on their own for a while now .......thanks.....single women can even have kids without a bloke even around and still manage......GASP!!!!.....and adopt kids as well  Shocked all by themselves

There is not the slightest compulsion on a husband or wife to initiate a divorce.. - just  the opposite.   The diocese does not send out divorce police - "Good morning, Mr Smith, the neighbours say your wife is infertile.  We'll take you down to the office to file for divorce."

"Good evening, Mrs Brown,  do you know your husband has been having an adulterous affairfor the last two years.  Here are the divorce papers to sign."

No, the Church makes no such demands, but it does demand that its priests make solid efforts to assist marriages in trouble.    A priest must supply his own written report as part of the application to the church divorce court and if it judges that he has been slack in his work in this area, then it will be bad for him.

In many cases, a couple will be happy enough not to have children and the impotence/infertility is not a problem.  In many cases a husband or wife will forgive an adulterous partner and their marriage can be rebuilt.

It's never black and white.



Yeah like i said....what vows DO you people say to each other??

Because they don't look like they are worth anything. OF COURSE there's no compulsion on a husband or wife to divorce, i wasn't even suggesting there was. But if the permission is already there that they can, then it makes it easier to jack it all in when it gets tough.

Answer my question....do you say until death that we part or not?? Do two ppl become one flesh or not?? Does God join them together or not??

Will i actually get a answer....or not??
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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2011, 09:04:14 AM »


and secondley....she doesnt need someone to care for her and the children. Women have been perfectly capable to care for themself and their kids on their own for a while now .......thanks.....single women can even have kids without a bloke even around and still manage......GASP!!!!.....and adopt kids as well  Shocked all by themselves

Yes, great!  London is reaping the results of this wonderful solo parent system.  


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Xenia1918
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« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 09:05:03 AM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??Dont religious people say until death we part???

 Shocked

Yeah, that one got to me too. Made me think of the guy in Jane Eyre, I think it was.

You know, my Italian grandparents (who were old school, from the Old Country) had an arranged marriage in 1920. They never met each other until the day they were married. I asked my grandmother in the 70s what that was like, and she said, "You learn to love each other". When my grandfather was diagnosed with diabetes in 1925, grandmom had started a rule that no one in the family would use sugar in anything, so grandpop wouldn't feel bad (and she didn't want him to know they were doing that or he would feel bad for that!) That's why my mom grew up without ever having eaten candy.

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.

Not a single divorce in my family, ever. Not on the Jewish side or the Italian side. I thank God for my family as my role model (incidentally my 28th wedding anniversary is coming up in a few weeks!)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 09:12:53 AM by Xenia1918 » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 09:11:34 AM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??Dont religious people say until death we part???

 Shocked

If a husband were to contract syphilis then it if is untreated and reaches the third stage he is quite likely to have severely impaired brain function.  This can include all sorts of ghastly things but it can also mean an inability to even recognise his wife.

Under such circumstances the Church would grant a divorce to the wife if she wishes to marry a second husband who will care for her and the children .

Divorces for mental illness are given in severe and incurable cases.

yeah preciseley when people need there partner the most.... is when they get abandoned and backed up by the church

so what vows do you take exactly??

and secondley....she doesnt need someone to care for her and the children. Women have been perfectly capable to care for themself and their kids on their own for a while now .......thanks.....single women can even have kids without a bloke even around and still manage......GASP!!!!.....and adopt kids as well  Shocked all by themselves

There is not the slightest compulsion on a husband or wife to initiate a divorce.. - just  the opposite.   The diocese does not send out divorce police - "Good morning, Mr Smith, the neighbours say your wife is infertile.  We'll take you down to the office to file for divorce."

"Good evening, Mrs Brown,  do you know your husband has been having an adulterous affairfor the last two years.  Here are the divorce papers to sign."

No, the Church makes no such demands, but it does demand that its priests make solid efforts to assist marriages in trouble.    A priest must supply his own written report as part of the application to the church divorce court and if it judges that he has been slack in his work in this area, then it will be bad for him.

In many cases, a couple will be happy enough not to have children and the impotence/infertility is not a problem.  In many cases a husband or wife will forgive an adulterous partner and their marriage can be rebuilt.

It's never black and white.



Yeah like i said....what vows DO you people say to each other??

Because they don't look like they are worth anything. OF COURSE there's no compulsion on a husband or wife to divorce, i wasn't even suggesting there was. But if the permission is already there that they can, then it makes it easier to jack it all in when it gets tough.

Answer my question....do you say until death that we part or not?? Do two ppl become one flesh or not?? Does God join them together or not??

Will i actually get a answer....or not??

I believe you live in the UK.   You will find that Greeks have two weddings...... the first one is a quick registry office job where they declare their intention to marry in front of two witnesses.  This is the one legal requirement for a legal marriage throughout the Commonwealth - a verbal declaration of the intent to marry on front of two witnesses.

Then they go off to the Greek Church and have their church wedding.

Why?   Because the Greek wedding ceremony contains no vows.  And the Greeks refuse to change their customs.

The Russians, on the other hand, have included vows and so there is no need for a prior civil ceremony.
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« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 09:15:05 AM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??Dont religious people say until death we part???

 Shocked

Yeah, that one got to me too. Made me think of the guy in Jane Eyre, I think it was.

You know, my Italian grandparents (who were old school, from the Old Country) had an arranged marriage in 1920. They never met each other until the day they were married. I asked my grandmother in the 70s what that was like, and she said, "You learn to love each other". When my grandfather was diagnosed with diabetes in 1925, grandmom had started a rule that no one in the family would use sugar in anything, so grandpop wouldn't feel bad (and she didn't want him to know they were doing that or he would feel bad for that!) That's why my mom grew up without ever having eaten candy.

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.

Are you saying that if he were not a Roman Catholic he would have abandoned her, because this is the type pf insulting inference you are making about Orthodox men.
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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2011, 09:16:27 AM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??Dont religious people say until death we part???

 Shocked

Yeah, that one got to me too. Made me think of the guy in Jane Eyre, I think it was.

You know, my Italian grandparents (who were old school, from the Old Country) had an arranged marriage in 1920. They never met each other until the day they were married. I asked my grandmother in the 70s what that was like, and she said, "You learn to love each other". When my grandfather was diagnosed with diabetes in 1925, grandmom had started a rule that no one in the family would use sugar in anything, so grandpop wouldn't feel bad (and she didn't want him to know they were doing that or he would feel bad for that!) That's why my mom grew up without ever having eaten candy.

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.

Are you saying that if he were not a Roman Catholic he would have abandoned her, because this is the type pf insulting inference you are making about Orthodox men.

I don't think he would have regardless, but only that in the pre-V2 days of the RCC, divorce and remarriage was a MAJOR no-no. Evidently the Orthodox Church is not as strict on that.

What I find interesting is that I have been told that a number of RCs join the Orthodox Church due to its supposed leniency on remarriage after divorce, and here I'm now hesitating because of the fact that they seem too lenient on divorce/remarriage! Different strokes, I guess.
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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2011, 09:19:14 AM »



Yeah like i said....what vows DO you people say to each other??

Because they don't look like they are worth anything. OF COURSE there's no compulsion on a husband or wife to divorce, i wasn't even suggesting there was. But if the permission is already there that they can, then it makes it easier to jack it all in when it gets tough.

Answer my question....do you say until death that we part or not?? Do two ppl become one flesh or not?? Does God join them together or not??

Will i actually get a answer....or not??

In the Orthodox Church there is no legalism in the sacrament of marriage. It is not a juridical contract. It does not contain  vows or oaths. It is, in essence, the "baptizing and confirming" of human love in God by Christ in the Holy Spirit. It is the deification of human love in the divine perfection and unity of the eternal Kingdom of God as revealed and given to us in the Church.
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2011, 09:25:28 AM »

We have had discussions on divorce before.

Does anybody remember the divorce rates for Catholic Italy and Catholic America compared to, say, Orthodox Greece.  I think that despite the availability of divorce for the Orthodox, our marriages are more stable.
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2011, 09:38:47 AM »

In the Orthodox Church there is no legalism in the sacrament of marriage. It is not a juridical contract. It does not contain  vows or oaths. It is, in essence, the "baptizing and confirming" of human love in God by Christ in the Holy Spirit. It is the deification of human love in the divine perfection and unity of the eternal Kingdom of God as revealed and given to us in the Church.

That is why the Church's response to troubled marriages is pastoral and not legalistic. There is no pretending that a marriage didn't exist, for example. Each divorce is considered by the Bishop on a case-by-case basis. Permission is not automatic nor given lightly.
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2011, 09:45:31 AM »

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.
But if he had been a lesser man (and thank God he wasn't) wouldn't it have been better for him to leave than to have your grandmother be cared for by someone who ultimately did not want to be there?

I'm sure in such a situation, a good priest with a pastoral relationship with both the husband and the wife would move Heaven and Earth to make sure the right thing was done for both. There would be no rubber stamping.
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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2011, 09:49:55 AM »

Dear Xenia,

You will find the grounds for divorce clearly given in this message

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18990.msg279933.html#msg279933

Thanks for that! Hmm, I'm kind of disappointed now; the only ground given in Scripture is fornication, and also there is what RCs call the Pauline Privilege; that list seems to include a lot of other things in addition.

Xenia,

I feel for you as this is one of the greatest sorrows that I have about Orthodoxy.  
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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2011, 09:51:29 AM »

We have had discussions on divorce before.

Does anybody remember the divorce rates for Catholic Italy and Catholic America compared to, say, Orthodox Greece.  I think that despite the availability of divorce for the Orthodox, our marriages are more stable.

Probably because Catholic countries are more secularized and individualized than Orthodox countries. As time goes on, Orthodox countries will probably follow the suit.
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« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2011, 09:52:57 AM »

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.
But if he had been a lesser man (and thank God he wasn't) wouldn't it have been better for him to leave than to have your grandmother be cared for by someone who ultimately did not want to be there?

I'm sure in such a situation, a good priest with a pastoral relationship with both the husband and the wife would move Heaven and Earth to make sure the right thing was done for both. There would be no rubber stamping.

I did not realize that being a Christian was about doing what we want.  I am sure that there were many times that the Grandfather would have liked to be anywhere else than with that woman.  But that is not what the marriage vows (or Love, for that matter) are all about.  Yes, I am sure there are priests that would have "freed him from his burden", and possibly his Salvation in the process.
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« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2011, 09:56:07 AM »

We have had discussions on divorce before.

Does anybody remember the divorce rates for Catholic Italy and Catholic America compared to, say, Orthodox Greece.  I think that despite the availability of divorce for the Orthodox, our marriages are more stable.

Probably because Catholic countries are more secularized and individualized than Orthodox countries. As time goes on, Orthodox countries will probably follow the suit.

Not necessarily!

http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/9/44943

According to figures from the City of Athens registry service, divorces
have declined by 25 percent in recent years.


More specifically, from a total of 1,579 divorces registered in Athens
in 2006, the number started to decline in 2009 after the outbreak of
the economic crisis, falling to 1,149 in 2010.

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« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2011, 10:01:06 AM »

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.
But if he had been a lesser man (and thank God he wasn't) wouldn't it have been better for him to leave than to have your grandmother be cared for by someone who ultimately did not want to be there?

I'm sure in such a situation, a good priest with a pastoral relationship with both the husband and the wife would move Heaven and Earth to make sure the right thing was done for both. There would be no rubber stamping.

I did not realize that being a Christian was about doing what we want.  I am sure that there were many times that the Grandfather would have liked to be anywhere else than with that woman.  But that is not what the marriage vows (or Love, for that matter) are all about.  Yes, I am sure there are priests that would have "freed him from his burden", and possibly his Salvation in the process.

Have you really come across such dreadful priests that your conscience allows you to smear us in this way?!
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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2011, 10:03:10 AM »


and secondley....she doesnt need someone to care for her and the children. Women have been perfectly capable to care for themself and their kids on their own for a while now .......thanks.....single women can even have kids without a bloke even around and still manage......GASP!!!!.....and adopt kids as well  Shocked all by themselves

Yes, great!  London is reaping the results of this wonderful solo parent system.  




Oh spare me the melodrama.....and the lack of facts to back up your spurious claim that solo parenting is responsible

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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2011, 10:03:19 AM »

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.
But if he had been a lesser man (and thank God he wasn't) wouldn't it have been better for him to leave than to have your grandmother be cared for by someone who ultimately did not want to be there?

I'm sure in such a situation, a good priest with a pastoral relationship with both the husband and the wife would move Heaven and Earth to make sure the right thing was done for both. There would be no rubber stamping.

I did not realize that being a Christian was about doing what we want.  I am sure that there were many times that the Grandfather would have liked to be anywhere else than with that woman.  But that is not what the marriage vows (or Love, for that matter) are all about.  Yes, I am sure there are priests that would have "freed him from his burden", and possibly his Salvation in the process.
I suppose I phrased that badly. I'm thinking of someone who really wasn't willing to step up to the plate, to the point where he might even have lapsed in caring for her, like letting her wander around and hurt herself or something. I wasn't just talking about the normal resentment no doubt everyone goes through in such a situation.

Could a priest prematurely let a man divorce a woman with mental illness? Sure. But you have to admit, the chances of causing a disaster by forcing such a marriage to stay together must be about as likely.
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« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2011, 10:04:22 AM »

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.
But if he had been a lesser man (and thank God he wasn't) wouldn't it have been better for him to leave than to have your grandmother be cared for by someone who ultimately did not want to be there?

I'm sure in such a situation, a good priest with a pastoral relationship with both the husband and the wife would move Heaven and Earth to make sure the right thing was done for both. There would be no rubber stamping.

I did not realize that being a Christian was about doing what we want.  I am sure that there were many times that the Grandfather would have liked to be anywhere else than with that woman.  But that is not what the marriage vows (or Love, for that matter) are all about.  Yes, I am sure there are priests that would have "freed him from his burden", and possibly his Salvation in the process.

Have you really come across such dreadful priests that your conscience allows you to smear us in this way?!

I could level the same charge at you with regarding solo parents??

POT KETTEL
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« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2011, 10:19:35 AM »

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.
But if he had been a lesser man (and thank God he wasn't) wouldn't it have been better for him to leave than to have your grandmother be cared for by someone who ultimately did not want to be there?

I'm sure in such a situation, a good priest with a pastoral relationship with both the husband and the wife would move Heaven and Earth to make sure the right thing was done for both. There would be no rubber stamping.

I did not realize that being a Christian was about doing what we want.  I am sure that there were many times that the Grandfather would have liked to be anywhere else than with that woman.  But that is not what the marriage vows (or Love, for that matter) are all about.  Yes, I am sure there are priests that would have "freed him from his burden", and possibly his Salvation in the process.

Have you really come across such dreadful priests that your conscience allows you to smear us in this way?!

I could level the same charge at you with regarding solo parents??

POT KETTEL

I am familiar with studies on the deleterious effect that solo parenting can have on children, and I have empirical evidence from 30 years in parish work.

I have never seen one study on priests telling their parishioners to "pack it in" and skedaddle because the going is getting too tough.  Have you?

In other words, priests are being maligned.  I am surprised that Punch is doing this.  I was in the Serbian Church for over 30 years and never came across a priest who was not fiercely supportive of the marriage bond.
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« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2011, 10:22:38 AM »


and secondley....she doesnt need someone to care for her and the children. Women have been perfectly capable to care for themself and their kids on their own for a while now .......thanks.....single women can even have kids without a bloke even around and still manage......GASP!!!!.....and adopt kids as well  Shocked all by themselves

Yes, great!  London is reaping the results of this wonderful solo parent system. 




Oh spare me the melodrama.....and the lack of facts to back up your spurious claim that solo parenting is responsible



Bury your head in the sand all you want.  Wait until the studies on these rioters are published.
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« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2011, 10:30:19 AM »

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.
But if he had been a lesser man (and thank God he wasn't) wouldn't it have been better for him to leave than to have your grandmother be cared for by someone who ultimately did not want to be there?

I'm sure in such a situation, a good priest with a pastoral relationship with both the husband and the wife would move Heaven and Earth to make sure the right thing was done for both. There would be no rubber stamping.

I did not realize that being a Christian was about doing what we want.  I am sure that there were many times that the Grandfather would have liked to be anywhere else than with that woman.  But that is not what the marriage vows (or Love, for that matter) are all about.  Yes, I am sure there are priests that would have "freed him from his burden", and possibly his Salvation in the process.

Have you really come across such dreadful priests that your conscience allows you to smear us in this way?!

I could level the same charge at you with regarding solo parents??

POT KETTEL

I am familiar with studies on the deleterious effect that solo parenting can have on children, and I have empirical evidence from 30 years in parish work.

I have never seen one study on priests telling their parishioners to "pack it in" and skedaddle because the going is getting too tough.  Have you?

In other words, priests are being maligned.  I am surprised that Punch is doing this.  I was in the Serbian Church for over 30 years and never came across a priest who was not fiercely supportive of the marriage bond.


Im have evidence too that being in a family of a solo parent or being in a family of two parents isnt a contributing facter to wheather kids are delinquent or not. That facts that IS relevent is what the socio-enconomic climate is like IN that family and not how many parents they have got but the quality of that parenting.

You might have some experience but to then say that solo parents produce criminal and delinquent children IS a spurious claim that you can't back up statistically with evidence and it smears the whole lot of solo parents that are doing a rli good job.

Shame on you for making a statement like that!!!
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« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2011, 10:33:14 AM »


and secondley....she doesnt need someone to care for her and the children. Women have been perfectly capable to care for themself and their kids on their own for a while now .......thanks.....single women can even have kids without a bloke even around and still manage......GASP!!!!.....and adopt kids as well  Shocked all by themselves

Yes, great!  London is reaping the results of this wonderful solo parent system. 




Oh spare me the melodrama.....and the lack of facts to back up your spurious claim that solo parenting is responsible



Bury your head in the sand all you want.  Wait until the studies on these rioters are published.

I will babe....and i will call you up to let you apolagise  Grin
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« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2011, 10:39:04 AM »

Poppy--You are looking at this very narrowly, from the perspective of a young person, living in the 21st Century England. The Church, however, is very very old and spans those centuries when a woman did indeed need a man to take care of herself and her children. Even today, data for the past 100 years have shown us that single parent families are not the very best situation for children. It is true that many children who have grown in such circumstances have turned out fine; just as it is true that many children who grew up in two-parent families have turned out badly. Nonetheless, I am talking about the outcome for the majority of one-parent children

Since nobody has brought it up, Father John Meyendorff had written what I think is the definitive book on what marriage means in the Orthodox Church: Marriage, an Orthodox Perspective (St Vladimir's Press). This book is available on Amazon, as is Saint John Chrysostom's On Marriage and Family Life (St Vladimirs's Press), Preserve Them, O Lord: A Guide for Orthodox Couples in Developing Marital Unity [Conciliar Press] by John MacK, and Love, Sexuality and the Sacrament of Marriage (Holy Cross Orthodox Press) by Father John Chryssavgis.

As I recall from Father Meyendorff's book we are married not merely for life but for all eternity. The reason why the Church exercises economy and allows remarriage is more complex but it is not a theological matter, it is a pastoral one, a very human and loving response to members who need a helping hand. As Irish Hermit observed, the Church does not encourage divorce and remarriage but tries to make the best of a tragic situation. The folks who have divorced will still have to answer to the Lord why their marriage had failed and they have to make amends and atone for their part in the tragedy.

BTW, Irish Hermit is not a mere bloke or a "babe" but Father Ambrose, a wonderful Orthodox priest who is serving the faithful I believe in New Zealand.
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« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2011, 10:43:08 AM »


You might have some experience but to then say that solo parents produce criminal and delinquent children IS a spurious claim that you can't back up statistically with evidence and it smears the whole lot of solo parents that are doing a rli good job.

Shame on you for making a statement like that!!!

Shame on you for pretending that I made such a statement.    Let's please be a bit more reasonable about what people say.    I no more said that solo parents must produce criminals than I said that two-parent families cannot produce criminals.
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« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2011, 10:47:50 AM »

Yes human beings have failings. We all will agree that at a wedding, spoken or unspoken that all expect that the union is forever.  And in the Orthodox Church it is not just “until death”.   But when this is not the case don’t belittle the Church for being honest at seeing reality.  And don’t pretend the western church is not the same, annulling a marriage is just a way of having a legalistic loophole to accomplish the same thing.

The question was asked:
 
Quote
Where does the Orthodox Church stand on divorce and remarriage?

  • Divorce - tragedy
  • Remarriage - accepted with repentance (lay folks only, not for clerigy)

In the Orthodox Church, a broken marriage is a tragedy.  The Church is grieved by the tragedy and the pain divorce causes.  Victims of broken marriages are encouraged to repent of the evils which caused the failure their original marriages, and to seek God’s mercy and guidance in transforming the defeat into spiritual victory.

Though marriage is understood as a sacrament, and thus accomplished by the grace of God and is permanent, the Church does not deal with divorce legalistically, but with compassion.

Even though folks found “lists” of reasons for divorce, it is not like that. “Find something to check on a list and you can free you mind.”  It is only after much pastoral counsel, that divorce may be allowed, because all avenues for reconciliation have been exhausted.  

This is not an automatic thing, even widows and widowers are counseled, particularly in the absence of small children in need of care, to remain faithful to their departed spouses.

As you may know, if there is a remarriage, the service for a second marriage includes prayers of repentance over the earlier divorce, asking God's forgiveness and protection for the new union.  Widowed and divorced persons who remarry do so not as recipients of a special gift of God’s mercy to be accepted with repentance, gratitude and the firm intention faithfully to fulfill all that belongs to married life.
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« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2011, 10:48:55 AM »

/\   laugh Grin  I don't mind if Poppy thinks I am a bloke or a babe.  I think that she has fire in her belly and I like that.  Grin Cheesy laugh

If you are a he-poppy and not a she-poppy...apologies.   laugh
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« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2011, 10:55:10 AM »


You might have some experience but to then say that solo parents produce criminal and delinquent children IS a spurious claim that you can't back up statistically with evidence and it smears the whole lot of solo parents that are doing a rli good job.

Shame on you for making a statement like that!!!

Shame on you for pretending that I made such a statement.    Let's please be a bit more reasonable about what people say.    I no more said that solo parents must produce criminals than I said that two-parent families cannot produce criminals.

"Yes, great! London is reaping the results of this wonderful solo parent system." Irish Hermit

I'll remind you of your statement because you seem to have had a small brain fart about what you did actually imply.

No worries i think its called a senior moment uh??

 Grin


PS: Which language would you like my sex in?? Theres a tonne in my signiture. If your data collecting abilitys is anything like your observational skills....haha...
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« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2011, 11:12:03 AM »

Poppy--You are looking at this very narrowly, from the perspective of a young person, living in the 21st Century England. The Church, however, is very very old and spans those centuries when a woman did indeed need a man to take care of herself and her children. Even today, data for the past 100 years have shown us that single parent families are not the very best situation for children. It is true that many children who have grown in such circumstances have turned out fine; just as it is true that many children who grew up in two-parent families have turned out badly. Nonetheless, I am talking about the outcome for the majority of one-parent children
The US Justice Department has stated, that based on incarceration, etc. data, the single most determinative factor, crossing race and economic lines, for delinquency and later crime, is the lack of a father.  That is in 20/21st century USA.  I doubt it is different elsewhere.
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« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2011, 11:13:12 AM »


I'll remind you of your statement because you seem to have had a small brain fart about what you did actually imply.

No worries i think its called a senior moment uh??


Youth cannot know how age thinks and feels. But old men are guilty if they forget what it was to be young.
 
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« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2011, 11:19:32 AM »

We have had discussions on divorce before.

Does anybody remember the divorce rates for Catholic Italy and Catholic America compared to, say, Orthodox Greece.  I think that despite the availability of divorce for the Orthodox, our marriages are more stable.

Probably because Catholic countries are more secularized and individualized than Orthodox countries. As time goes on, Orthodox countries will probably follow the suit.

Not necessarily!

http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/9/44943

According to figures from the City of Athens registry service, divorces
have declined by 25 percent in recent years.


More specifically, from a total of 1,579 divorces registered in Athens
in 2006, the number started to decline in 2009 after the outbreak of
the economic crisis, falling to 1,149 in 2010
What were the marriage statistics like? That stats in Scandinavia (and the US too, but much less) show a decline in divorce, but only because people aren't bothering to get married in the first place.  To get divorced, you have to first be married (something brought home when IL OKd gay civil unions: the first ones happened on July 2 (there is a day delay after getting a license), but the first gay divorce was July 1 (they were "married" in Quebec IIRC.  The laywer said that his client wasn't allowed relief under the old IL law).  Shacking up and breaking up doesn't register.  Except in the juvenile/domsetic and criminal courts.
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« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2011, 11:28:19 AM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??Dont religious people say until death we part???

 Shocked

Yeah, that one got to me too. Made me think of the guy in Jane Eyre, I think it was.

You know, my Italian grandparents (who were old school, from the Old Country) had an arranged marriage in 1920. They never met each other until the day they were married. I asked my grandmother in the 70s what that was like, and she said, "You learn to love each other". When my grandfather was diagnosed with diabetes in 1925, grandmom had started a rule that no one in the family would use sugar in anything, so grandpop wouldn't feel bad (and she didn't want him to know they were doing that or he would feel bad for that!) That's why my mom grew up without ever having eaten candy.

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.

Are you saying that if he were not a Roman Catholic he would have abandoned her, because this is the type pf insulting inference you are making about Orthodox men.

I don't think he would have regardless, but only that in the pre-V2 days of the RCC, divorce and remarriage was a MAJOR no-no. Evidently the Orthodox Church is not as strict on that.

What I find interesting is that I have been told that a number of RCs join the Orthodox Church due to its supposed leniency on remarriage after divorce, and here I'm now hesitating because of the fact that they seem too lenient on divorce/remarriage! Different strokes, I guess.
Well, the priest at my parish and then wife's father confessor, told her not to come back after she filed for divorce (the facts of the case were, as he said, well beyond mere adultery).  Our secretary at the time, a RC, was told by her priest that he would do nothing about her husband (who was parish council president or some such thing) because "if I had to fault people for divorce and adultery there would be no parisioners left."

Btw, I have heard a lot of RCs make this claim, I've known a number of Orthodox converts who were accused of this, but I've yet to meet an Orthodox convert who actually joined the Orthodox Church due to its supposed leniency on remarriage.  On the leniency of the Vatican, just look at the corban factories a/k/a marriage tribunals on annullments.
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« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2011, 11:42:31 AM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??Dont religious people say until death we part???

 Shocked

Yeah, that one got to me too. Made me think of the guy in Jane Eyre, I think it was.

You know, my Italian grandparents (who were old school, from the Old Country) had an arranged marriage in 1920. They never met each other until the day they were married. I asked my grandmother in the 70s what that was like, and she said, "You learn to love each other". When my grandfather was diagnosed with diabetes in 1925, grandmom had started a rule that no one in the family would use sugar in anything, so grandpop wouldn't feel bad (and she didn't want him to know they were doing that or he would feel bad for that!) That's why my mom grew up without ever having eaten candy.

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.

Are you saying that if he were not a Roman Catholic he would have abandoned her, because this is the type pf insulting inference you are making about Orthodox men.

I don't think he would have regardless, but only that in the pre-V2 days of the RCC, divorce and remarriage was a MAJOR no-no. Evidently the Orthodox Church is not as strict on that.

What I find interesting is that I have been told that a number of RCs join the Orthodox Church due to its supposed leniency on remarriage after divorce, and here I'm now hesitating because of the fact that they seem too lenient on divorce/remarriage! Different strokes, I guess.
Well, the priest at my parish and then wife's father confessor, told her not to come back after she filed for divorce (the facts of the case were, as he said, well beyond mere adultery).  Our secretary at the time, a RC, was told by her priest that he would do nothing about her husband (who was parish council president or some such thing) because "if I had to fault people for divorce and adultery there would be no parisioners left."

Btw, I have heard a lot of RCs make this claim, I've known a number of Orthodox converts who were accused of this, but I've yet to meet an Orthodox convert who actually joined the Orthodox Church due to its supposed leniency on remarriage.  On the leniency of the Vatican, just look at the corban factories a/k/a marriage tribunals on annullments.

Isa,

The bolded part, I am little confused on:

As I understand it, if you were not married within the OC, then any prior marriage are not recognized, how could they be?

Does this mean that the RC sacrament of Marriage is upheld in the OC.

Or that people are preemptively choosing the OC before marriage because of the stance the OC has on it?

Or something else entirely?
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« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2011, 11:45:16 AM »

/\   laugh Grin  I don't mind if Poppy thinks I am a bloke or a babe.  I think that she has fire in her belly and I like that.  Grin Cheesy laugh

If you are a he-poppy and not a she-poppy...apologies.   laugh

Exactly. I'd rather have someone with spine get into with me, than a wilting lilac. It is almost insulting the latter would even try. //:=)

Spending most of my life in bars . . . Oh that commentary on humanity will come later.
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« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2011, 12:14:01 PM »

Since nobody has brought it up, Father John Meyendorff had written what I think is the definitive book on what marriage means in the Orthodox Church: Marriage, an Orthodox Perspective (St Vladimir's Press). This book is available on Amazon, as is Saint John Chrysostom's On Marriage and Family Life (St Vladimirs's Press), Preserve Them, O Lord: A Guide for Orthodox Couples in Developing Marital Unity [Conciliar Press] by John MacK, and Love, Sexuality and the Sacrament of Marriage (Holy Cross Orthodox Press) by Father John Chryssavgis.

I would add to this list: Women and Men in the Early Church: The Full Views of St. John Chrysostom, by David Ford. And, while I don't mean to disparage the books you suggested, the book by Mr. Ford is the one I found most helpful as far as practical matters related to marriage (though I've only read three of the four you mentioned, haven't read the last one).
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« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2011, 12:15:35 PM »

Regarding vows: we didn't make any vows. Of course, in premarital counseling we were told that marriage was a cross, that we shouldn't "meet people half way" but should go all the way, that divorce wasn't even something that should enter our minds, etc., so...  Smiley

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« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2011, 12:16:10 PM »

wow that list is kind of rank!! Why would you divorce someone because of mental illness??Dont religious people say until death we part???

 Shocked

Yeah, that one got to me too. Made me think of the guy in Jane Eyre, I think it was.

You know, my Italian grandparents (who were old school, from the Old Country) had an arranged marriage in 1920. They never met each other until the day they were married. I asked my grandmother in the 70s what that was like, and she said, "You learn to love each other". When my grandfather was diagnosed with diabetes in 1925, grandmom had started a rule that no one in the family would use sugar in anything, so grandpop wouldn't feel bad (and she didn't want him to know they were doing that or he would feel bad for that!) That's why my mom grew up without ever having eaten candy.

And when my grandmother lost her first baby in 1921 to stillbirth (fullterm), and "went crazy" over it for a while, my grandfather comforted her and stayed by her. And many years later when she developed dementia due to Alzheimers, he also took care of her. I guess the Orthodox Church would have given a lesser man a way out? Good thing for grandmom (and my grandfather's sense of principle and manhood) that they were Roman Catholics.

Are you saying that if he were not a Roman Catholic he would have abandoned her, because this is the type pf insulting inference you are making about Orthodox men.

I don't think he would have regardless, but only that in the pre-V2 days of the RCC, divorce and remarriage was a MAJOR no-no. Evidently the Orthodox Church is not as strict on that.

What I find interesting is that I have been told that a number of RCs join the Orthodox Church due to its supposed leniency on remarriage after divorce, and here I'm now hesitating because of the fact that they seem too lenient on divorce/remarriage! Different strokes, I guess.
Well, the priest at my parish and then wife's father confessor, told her not to come back after she filed for divorce (the facts of the case were, as he said, well beyond mere adultery).  Our secretary at the time, a RC, was told by her priest that he would do nothing about her husband (who was parish council president or some such thing) because "if I had to fault people for divorce and adultery there would be no parisioners left."

Btw, I have heard a lot of RCs make this claim, I've known a number of Orthodox converts who were accused of this, but I've yet to meet an Orthodox convert who actually joined the Orthodox Church due to its supposed leniency on remarriage.  On the leniency of the Vatican, just look at the corban factories a/k/a marriage tribunals on annullments.

Isa,

The bolded part, I am little confused on:

As I understand it, if you were not married within the OC, then any prior marriage are not recognized, how could they be?

Does this mean that the RC sacrament of Marriage is upheld in the OC.

Or that people are preemptively choosing the OC before marriage because of the stance the OC has on it?

Or something else entirely?
As I understand it, the RC sacrament of marriage is upheld by the OC, as my wife and I were originally married RC, but recognized as such by the OC. We did have a wedding ceremony in the OC, later, and the explanation was essentially that, like certain other sacraments performed by heterodox, the sacrament of marriage had been performed on us in a valid, but not complete way, and that our ceremony in the OC blessed our union within the OC, and made it complete.

I believe that the emboldened bit is alluding to folks who have been married in the RC church, then divorced, and become Orthodox in order to get remarried. A very stubborn RC friend of mine bombarded me with tales of such cases when trying to dissuade me from conversion.
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« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2011, 12:16:36 PM »

Poppy, I think you've got yourself quite a fanclub here...  Wink Meow, boys!
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