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Author Topic: Homosexulaity and the Church--was part of Re: Interesting development in the OCA  (Read 18825 times) Average Rating: 0
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orthonorm
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« Reply #90 on: August 10, 2011, 02:58:00 AM »

Sheesh, you watch a tv show, and then take a nap for a couple hours, and the whole forum goes to hell.  Shocked

It's THE GAYS I tell you.

And Jim from Brooklyn . . . //:=)
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« Reply #91 on: August 10, 2011, 03:01:32 AM »

I guess if a friend is threatening to kill himself, it is none of my concern, I should just leave him be and stay out of his life, even if he is on the edge of a cliff...

Its not like we are just playing with something minor here, we are messing with fire, we are messing with the possibility of eternal separation from God.

I guess I'm a horrible person for wanting everyone to avoid such a fate...
Again, right. This is the whole point.

For one, we're not even discussing any individual's struggle with homosexuality here. This whole back and forth began with 2 sticking points:
1) Whether Protestantism, generally was more accepting of homosexuality, which this list, one more tine: http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/find_a_church.htm, sheds some good light on
2) Whether homosexuality, as an overall behavior and idea, can be accepted by anyone who is an Orthodox Christian. We still don't know how orthonorm feels about it, and we can only gather that augustin doesn't care. It would follow, then, that he doesn't care about murder, lying, drug abuse, or adultery, as it would be an intrusion on people's privacy, unless he doesn't believe that homosexuality is inherently sinful, which is a whole other thing, and would surprise me.

I forgot this is your playground and you get to frame the debate and ignore all replies given to you.

Oh yeah, you get to make fantastic extrapolations as well.

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« Reply #92 on: August 10, 2011, 03:02:18 AM »

If you think that two or three or whatever number of adults bumping uglies together is on par with murder than there is nothing I can say.
I don't. You're deflecting. I listed some other sins. Some were greater, some lesser, some on par. Yu didn't address the actual point I made.

You're on the hook now.

Please rank the sins in degree of "badness".
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« Reply #93 on: August 10, 2011, 03:05:54 AM »

If you think that two or three or whatever number of adults bumping uglies together is on par with murder than there is nothing I can say.

I can say that morally I am probably with you, but I can imagine some cases where I would have to disagree on aesthetics.

And since nothing like HOMO make this place tick, who is that dapper gent as your avatar?

If it is you, every gay man and single lady here will be at your door. I cannot compete.
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« Reply #94 on: August 10, 2011, 03:06:47 AM »

Jim,

Really, don't waste your time replying to long reply of mine.

It serves no purpose.

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« Reply #95 on: August 10, 2011, 03:08:07 AM »

Wait now, they even want a "sanctity of marriage" Sunday where a letter  from the metropolitan on how bad and destructive same-sex unions are will be read in all churches. If this isn't Focus on the Family style of Protestantism brought into orthodoxy, that what is it?
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« Reply #96 on: August 10, 2011, 03:08:23 AM »

Someone I personally know was actually googled by people in a mostly convert church and-gasp=found gay. and was driven out of that church, told on to the priest, called  to his office several times, for just admitting that publicly on a social network. This convinced me that was almost a cult.

Cults are American as Apple Pie, other countries should question the modern use of the word "cult". The anti-cult movement was started in America in the 1960's or 1970's because middle class and rich western European American protestant and Roman Catholic church goers had kids that joined either the pot smoking and acid taking sex revolution and new age movements or the wild low Pentecostal and Charismatic church groups.

The harassment you mentioned is part of every day American life. For strict parents are known to do the same to their kids. Strict bosses at work are known to do that to their employees. And we can find more examples of this behavior in the Armed Forces, Political Parties, sports, ........etc.

There is really no way getting around it, for even Creationist and Intelligent Design  School teachers and professors get harassed and bullied by their atheistic counter-parts.

It's part of humanity. You just don't like it because it is happening to a person you know or like. But I bet you would turn a blind eye to it if it happened to a conservative convert from protestantism........for you seem to dislike all things from conservative converts.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 03:19:43 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: August 10, 2011, 03:11:01 AM »

AHHHHH the quotes!!!!

Hmmm.

Jim let's start over. Our quotes are getting jumbled.
1) You referenced the length of my orthodoxy when you brought up the financial scandal.
2) Again, tell me how living in Russia half of the time, maintaining permanent residence there, having spent 3 years  there total, being married to a Russian, who ive been with for 9 years, and being invested and active in business there, is somehow just a trip abroad.
3) you still haven't answered devin's question.
4) how old are you, anyway, if you're going to keep referencing my age and incredible lack of experience in anything?

lulz @ you. I certainly can draw you in. You really would be better off not taking me so seriously, as you are only proving my point.

1.) I was referring to HERE. OC.net. I made no mention of your . . . I never wanted to, but it seems like it is a problem for you.

2.) Again 3 years? Wait your wife is Russian and you have invested money there? Hey I dated a Romanian for four years and bought half of Transylvania at least three rounds. Can I be Romanian too? If you really want to go down this line, which I don't as most can read between your line, it will just get uglier.

3.) I did.

4.) I said you are not old enough to have lived everywhere you say, as you proven, outside the mind of an American. Identity through consumption. Jim you have married and bought enough of Russia to be Russian, congratulations.

Was PMing someone earlier mentioning I have never lived anywhere for longer than 4 years and that is just recently. I've live in more countries for longer than you have in Russia. Who cares?

I am an America. Midwest. Everything else were stays. No Austrian, German, Irish, etc. would call me anything other.

You do seem insecure here.

But let me extend to you an olive branch!

I will try not mention a small elliptical that will upset you.

You are Russian. And a New Yorker. And a Georgian (the US State) not the country. Yet! And a Utahan.

Still, back to the point.

What are you truly not trying to change in your life? That is more interesting than talking about the single problem for a single person who ain't here to share who has much impact on the world.

You tell me one of yours and I will tell you one of mine.


Again, you're projecting a lot of crap on to me that I don't deserve. I never claimed to be Russian. I don't want to be Russian. I claimed that I love Russia, mostly because I love my family, and that I know something about Russia, because I'm heavily invested there, in many ways, and have spent enough time there to make me more than a tourist.  

I never claimed to be Georgian. I lived there for 2 years. I never claimed to be a Utahn. I said I lived there for 2 months. In rehab, as a teenager. That was Minnesota, too, btw. All of this was simply responding to your assertion that I'd never lived in any "fly-over" area. 2 years and change is not much, no, but it's not never. I'm a New Yorker and Massachusettian. I grew up in those places, lived 13 years in one, 8 in the other. Left room for 3 in Russia and 2 in GA, with a couple months pitstops in other places along the way. I am comfortable with this, and happy about it. I'm a proud, often disgustingly so, American, and Northeasterner.

You still have never said your own age, which is odd, because you insist on calling me out for my youth.

Yes, you draw me in, because it really surprises me how uncharitable you can be in this kind of setting. I will happily concede that point, and that I will defend myself from being repeatedly dumped on.

What am I truly not trying to change? Nothing that I'm aware of. Am I quite stubborn on a lot of things? Sure. Vanity, laziness, pride, anger, lust, pick one. Am I not truly trying to change anything about myself that I am able to identify as keeping me away from God? No.

I would still like to know whether or not you believe homosexuality is sinful, as it is very relevant to this discussion, and you haven't answered that.
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« Reply #98 on: August 10, 2011, 03:12:09 AM »

The real question here is this:

On Sunday, I am going to note the number of people who bring this up.

That will be our barometer of how important this is.

And Jim, since you are from the Midwest you will know that is joke of sorts, because really, I mean really, we do have to talk about the weather for at least 10 minutes before moving onto anything else.

Before I can even get to the discussion of my latent Oedipal issues which cause to me make short work of possible father figures on the internet, we have to discuss the Doppler Nine Radar Report.

Those minutes alone have put one grandkid through Brown.
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« Reply #99 on: August 10, 2011, 03:13:22 AM »

He also shared a cell, apparently, with Gleb Podmoshenski. The irony...
But yeah, I can see how formerly conservative Protestants get all excited over this stuff. It's actually what made them come into the OC. Who cares.

Why are you so upset about this? A number of us conservative converts wouldn't have a problem with Mark Stoko's homosexuality if their wasn't a movement within American Orthodox jurisdictions to find a way to overturn Orthodox tradition in this area.

Why aren't you upset at the groups who were trying to find some loop hole to over turn Orthodox tradition? Why are you fussing at us for? What did we do?

I would feel the same way if there was a group of Gluttons trying to find a loop hole to over turn our fasting traditions. Look, It's not about people in the Church being Gluttons or homosexuals. It's about preserving the Faith for the next generation.


Watch out for the neocon cabal trying to align Orthodoxy with a certain party.

I'm already a Republican. I been one for almost ....hmm, 10 years now? The neocons are just one segment of the Republican party. As far as I know there are 4 main groups within the Republican party. The neocons are just 1 out of the 4.
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« Reply #100 on: August 10, 2011, 03:16:26 AM »

If you think that two or three or whatever number of adults bumping uglies together is on par with murder than there is nothing I can say.
I don't. You're deflecting. I listed some other sins. Some were greater, some lesser, some on par. Yu didn't address the actual point I made.

You're on the hook now.

Please rank the sins in degree of "badness".
I honestly don't differentiate much between one sin and the next; augustin opened that door by suggesting that murder was much worse than homosexuality, which I think, outside of getting into the theology behind it, and all of the potential implications, it's fairly easy to agree with. All I meant was, and I think you understand this, that whether stealing a toothbrush is not as bad as gay sex, or whether murder is worse than gay sex, it's all sin, and thus, it's all worthy of being opposed by an Orthodox Christian.
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« Reply #101 on: August 10, 2011, 03:18:51 AM »

AHHHHH the quotes!!!!

Hmmm.

Jim let's start over. Our quotes are getting jumbled.
1) You referenced the length of my orthodoxy when you brought up the financial scandal.
2) Again, tell me how living in Russia half of the time, maintaining permanent residence there, having spent 3 years  there total, being married to a Russian, who ive been with for 9 years, and being invested and active in business there, is somehow just a trip abroad.
3) you still haven't answered devin's question.
4) how old are you, anyway, if you're going to keep referencing my age and incredible lack of experience in anything?

lulz @ you. I certainly can draw you in. You really would be better off not taking me so seriously, as you are only proving my point.

1.) I was referring to HERE. OC.net. I made no mention of your . . . I never wanted to, but it seems like it is a problem for you.

2.) Again 3 years? Wait your wife is Russian and you have invested money there? Hey I dated a Romanian for four years and bought half of Transylvania at least three rounds. Can I be Romanian too? If you really want to go down this line, which I don't as most can read between your line, it will just get uglier.

3.) I did.

4.) I said you are not old enough to have lived everywhere you say, as you proven, outside the mind of an American. Identity through consumption. Jim you have married and bought enough of Russia to be Russian, congratulations.

Was PMing someone earlier mentioning I have never lived anywhere for longer than 4 years and that is just recently. I've live in more countries for longer than you have in Russia. Who cares?

I am an America. Midwest. Everything else were stays. No Austrian, German, Irish, etc. would call me anything other.

You do seem insecure here.

But let me extend to you an olive branch!

I will try not mention a small elliptical that will upset you.

You are Russian. And a New Yorker. And a Georgian (the US State) not the country. Yet! And a Utahan.

Still, back to the point.

What are you truly not trying to change in your life? That is more interesting than talking about the single problem for a single person who ain't here to share who has much impact on the world.

You tell me one of yours and I will tell you one of mine.


Again, you're projecting a lot of crap on to me that I don't deserve. I never claimed to be Russian. I don't want to be Russian. I claimed that I love Russia, mostly because I love my family, and that I know something about Russia, because I'm heavily invested there, in many ways, and have spent enough time there to make me more than a tourist.  

I never claimed to be Georgian. I lived there for 2 years. I never claimed to be a Utahn. I said I lived there for 2 months. In rehab, as a teenager. That was Minnesota, too, btw. All of this was simply responding to your assertion that I'd never lived in any "fly-over" area. 2 years and change is not much, no, but it's not never. I'm a New Yorker and Massachusettian. I grew up in those places, lived 13 years in one, 8 in the other. Left room for 3 in Russia and 2 in GA, with a couple months pitstops in other places along the way. I am comfortable with this, and happy about it. I'm a proud, often disgustingly so, American, and Northeasterner.

You still have never said your own age, which is odd, because you insist on calling me out for my youth.

Yes, you draw me in, because it really surprises me how uncharitable you can be in this kind of setting. I will happily concede that point, and that I will defend myself from being repeatedly dumped on.

What am I truly not trying to change? Nothing that I'm aware of. Am I quite stubborn on a lot of things? Sure. Vanity, laziness, pride, anger, lust, pick one. Am I not truly trying to change anything about myself that I am able to identify as keeping me away from God? No.

I would still like to know whether or not you believe homosexuality is sinful, as it is very relevant to this discussion, and you haven't answered that.

Jim,

Really, don't waste your time replying to long reply of mine.

It serves no purpose.



Couldn't refuse to bite? Hazelden as a teen? Of course. Do you want me to run with this? You actually don't realize how charitable I am being.

You are lobbing me softballs, for a baseball fan you think you would play a little harder, and I have choosen to try my darndest not to smash them outta the park.

I know you. I do.

You don't have to explain yourself to me. Or to yourself.

To the bolded part:

Good on you then. You are a better man than I or . . .

« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 03:19:32 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #102 on: August 10, 2011, 03:20:16 AM »

If you think that two or three or whatever number of adults bumping uglies together is on par with murder than there is nothing I can say.
I don't. You're deflecting. I listed some other sins. Some were greater, some lesser, some on par. Yu didn't address the actual point I made.

You're on the hook now.

Please rank the sins in degree of "badness".
I honestly don't differentiate much between one sin and the next; augustin opened that door by suggesting that murder was much worse than homosexuality, which I think, outside of getting into the theology behind it, and all of the potential implications, it's fairly easy to agree with. All I meant was, and I think you understand this, that whether stealing a toothbrush is not as bad as gay sex, or whether murder is worse than gay sex, it's all sin, and thus, it's all worthy of being opposed by an Orthodox Christian.
Not paying laborers their due wages is ranked as a grave sin in every catechism I saw-among those "that cry to Heaven for vengeance", yet it doesn't outrage pious folks in the same way as homosexual sex.
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« Reply #103 on: August 10, 2011, 03:25:42 AM »

AHHHHH the quotes!!!!

Hmmm.

Jim let's start over. Our quotes are getting jumbled.
1) You referenced the length of my orthodoxy when you brought up the financial scandal.
2) Again, tell me how living in Russia half of the time, maintaining permanent residence there, having spent 3 years  there total, being married to a Russian, who ive been with for 9 years, and being invested and active in business there, is somehow just a trip abroad.
3) you still haven't answered devin's question.
4) how old are you, anyway, if you're going to keep referencing my age and incredible lack of experience in anything?

lulz @ you. I certainly can draw you in. You really would be better off not taking me so seriously, as you are only proving my point.

1.) I was referring to HERE. OC.net. I made no mention of your . . . I never wanted to, but it seems like it is a problem for you.

2.) Again 3 years? Wait your wife is Russian and you have invested money there? Hey I dated a Romanian for four years and bought half of Transylvania at least three rounds. Can I be Romanian too? If you really want to go down this line, which I don't as most can read between your line, it will just get uglier.

3.) I did.

4.) I said you are not old enough to have lived everywhere you say, as you proven, outside the mind of an American. Identity through consumption. Jim you have married and bought enough of Russia to be Russian, congratulations.

Was PMing someone earlier mentioning I have never lived anywhere for longer than 4 years and that is just recently. I've live in more countries for longer than you have in Russia. Who cares?

I am an America. Midwest. Everything else were stays. No Austrian, German, Irish, etc. would call me anything other.

You do seem insecure here.

But let me extend to you an olive branch!

I will try not mention a small elliptical that will upset you.

You are Russian. And a New Yorker. And a Georgian (the US State) not the country. Yet! And a Utahan.

Still, back to the point.

What are you truly not trying to change in your life? That is more interesting than talking about the single problem for a single person who ain't here to share who has much impact on the world.

You tell me one of yours and I will tell you one of mine.


Again, you're projecting a lot of crap on to me that I don't deserve. I never claimed to be Russian. I don't want to be Russian. I claimed that I love Russia, mostly because I love my family, and that I know something about Russia, because I'm heavily invested there, in many ways, and have spent enough time there to make me more than a tourist.  

I never claimed to be Georgian. I lived there for 2 years. I never claimed to be a Utahn. I said I lived there for 2 months. In rehab, as a teenager. That was Minnesota, too, btw. All of this was simply responding to your assertion that I'd never lived in any "fly-over" area. 2 years and change is not much, no, but it's not never. I'm a New Yorker and Massachusettian. I grew up in those places, lived 13 years in one, 8 in the other. Left room for 3 in Russia and 2 in GA, with a couple months pitstops in other places along the way. I am comfortable with this, and happy about it. I'm a proud, often disgustingly so, American, and Northeasterner.

You still have never said your own age, which is odd, because you insist on calling me out for my youth.

Yes, you draw me in, because it really surprises me how uncharitable you can be in this kind of setting. I will happily concede that point, and that I will defend myself from being repeatedly dumped on.

What am I truly not trying to change? Nothing that I'm aware of. Am I quite stubborn on a lot of things? Sure. Vanity, laziness, pride, anger, lust, pick one. Am I not truly trying to change anything about myself that I am able to identify as keeping me away from God? No.

I would still like to know whether or not you believe homosexuality is sinful, as it is very relevant to this discussion, and you haven't answered that.

Jim,

Really, don't waste your time replying to long reply of mine.

It serves no purpose.



Couldn't refuse to bite? Hazelden as a teen? Of course. Do you want me to run with this? You actually don't realize how charitable I am being.

You are lobbing me softballs, for a baseball fan you think you would play a little harder, and I have choosen to try my darndest not to smash them outta the park.

I know you. I do.

You don't have to explain yourself to me. Or to yourself.

To the bolded part:

Good on you then. You are a better man than I or . . .


Yes, Hazelden as a teen. It didn't work, and was kind of a stupid place. I'm not implying anything, positive or negative, by mentioning my time there. I was simply explaining my own reality, which is what it is. I don't know what "of course" means.

What shocks me is that you actually think of things in terms of "knocking one out of the park". I'm not thinking about whether I'm tossing you softballs with which to put me down; I'm thinking about telling the truth, and it shocks me that I have to contend with people trying to belittle me with wit at every corner on a forum for Christians.

To the bolded part, I simply mean that I want to know Christ, and my true desire is to be close to God, and as such, I truly want to shed all of the impediments between Him and I. This is not to imply that I am doing this very well.
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« Reply #104 on: August 10, 2011, 03:26:25 AM »

The real question here is this:

On Sunday, I am going to note the number of people who bring this up.

That will be our barometer of how important this is.

And Jim, since you are from the Midwest you will know that is joke of sorts, because really, I mean really, we do have to talk about the weather for at least 10 minutes before moving onto anything else.

Before I can even get to the discussion of my latent Oedipal issues which cause to me make short work of possible father figures on the internet, we have to discuss the Doppler Nine Radar Report.

Those minutes alone have put one grandkid through Brown.

I find it odd that you are sooooooo stressed out over this issue! Why aren't you stressed out and worried about the fact that some would like to find a loop hole to over turn Orthodox tradition in this area? Where is your stress over that? Why aren't you sooooooo worried about that?

Look, most of us wouldn't be talking about this issue if there wasn't a push to change our tradition.
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« Reply #105 on: August 10, 2011, 03:27:06 AM »

Jim,

You could never guess my motivations for my rhetoric with you. You however are batting 1.000.

They come from nowhere but charity. If this were I a different place on the internet, I would be more so.

Love is many feathered thing. Or something.

A girl once wrote that on a Valentine for me in the first grade. I told her she was dumb and it was hope.

She is today a high functioning executive of a Fortune 5 and a single mom (widow) of five children, three of whom she adopted.

And she says that moment in 197x (we could have a contest, you missed my last one), shocked her into becoming the woman she is today.

You're welcome.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 03:32:50 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #106 on: August 10, 2011, 03:28:04 AM »

Yes, Hazelden as a teen. It didn't work, and was kind of a stupid place. I'm not implying anything, positive or negative, by mentioning my time there. I was simply explaining my own reality, which is what it is. I don't know what "of course" means.

What shocks me is that you actually think of things in terms of "knocking one out of the park". I'm not thinking about whether I'm tossing you softballs with which to put me down; I'm thinking about telling the truth, and it shocks me that I have to contend with people trying to belittle me with wit at every corner on a forum for Christians.

To the bolded part, I simply mean that I want to know Christ, and my true desire is to be close to God, and as such, I truly want to shed all of the impediments between Him and I. This is not to imply that I am doing this very well.

It's all out of love.

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« Reply #107 on: August 10, 2011, 03:28:28 AM »

If you think that two or three or whatever number of adults bumping uglies together is on par with murder than there is nothing I can say.
I don't. You're deflecting. I listed some other sins. Some were greater, some lesser, some on par. Yu didn't address the actual point I made.

You're on the hook now.

Please rank the sins in degree of "badness".
I honestly don't differentiate much between one sin and the next; augustin opened that door by suggesting that murder was much worse than homosexuality, which I think, outside of getting into the theology behind it, and all of the potential implications, it's fairly easy to agree with. All I meant was, and I think you understand this, that whether stealing a toothbrush is not as bad as gay sex, or whether murder is worse than gay sex, it's all sin, and thus, it's all worthy of being opposed by an Orthodox Christian.
Not paying laborers their due wages is ranked as a grave sin in every catechism I saw-among those "that cry to Heaven for vengeance", yet it doesn't outrage pious folks in the same way as homosexual sex.
Again, I think that by trying to conjure up every other sin in the book, identify it, and assert that some people do it, or that some people don't worry much about it, you're still failing to explain why homosexuality should be ignored.
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« Reply #108 on: August 10, 2011, 03:29:52 AM »

If you think that two or three or whatever number of adults bumping uglies together is on par with murder than there is nothing I can say.
I don't. You're deflecting. I listed some other sins. Some were greater, some lesser, some on par. Yu didn't address the actual point I made.

You're on the hook now.

Please rank the sins in degree of "badness".
I honestly don't differentiate much between one sin and the next; augustin opened that door by suggesting that murder was much worse than homosexuality, which I think, outside of getting into the theology behind it, and all of the potential implications, it's fairly easy to agree with. All I meant was, and I think you understand this, that whether stealing a toothbrush is not as bad as gay sex, or whether murder is worse than gay sex, it's all sin, and thus, it's all worthy of being opposed by an Orthodox Christian.


They want to change the tradition of the church without opposition. That's pretty much what it comes down to. They want the Orthodox to be just like the liberal Episcopalians in America. They look to them for inspiration, motivation, hope and instruction.
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« Reply #109 on: August 10, 2011, 03:32:37 AM »

ican sniff a former Protestant from a couple of miles away. police

What do non-Protestant converts smell like?
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« Reply #110 on: August 10, 2011, 03:34:27 AM »

Yes, Hazelden as a teen. It didn't work, and was kind of a stupid place. I'm not implying anything, positive or negative, by mentioning my time there. I was simply explaining my own reality, which is what it is. I don't know what "of course" means.

What shocks me is that you actually think of things in terms of "knocking one out of the park". I'm not thinking about whether I'm tossing you softballs with which to put me down; I'm thinking about telling the truth, and it shocks me that I have to contend with people trying to belittle me with wit at every corner on a forum for Christians.

To the bolded part, I simply mean that I want to know Christ, and my true desire is to be close to God, and as such, I truly want to shed all of the impediments between Him and I. This is not to imply that I am doing this very well.

It's all out of love.


I'm sure the liberals in the Episcopal church said the samething before they were able to take over the ECUSA.
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« Reply #111 on: August 10, 2011, 03:37:53 AM »

If you think that two or three or whatever number of adults bumping uglies together is on par with murder than there is nothing I can say.
I don't. You're deflecting. I listed some other sins. Some were greater, some lesser, some on par. Yu didn't address the actual point I made.

You're on the hook now.

Please rank the sins in degree of "badness".
I honestly don't differentiate much between one sin and the next; augustin opened that door by suggesting that murder was much worse than homosexuality, which I think, outside of getting into the theology behind it, and all of the potential implications, it's fairly easy to agree with. All I meant was, and I think you understand this, that whether stealing a toothbrush is not as bad as gay sex, or whether murder is worse than gay sex, it's all sin, and thus, it's all worthy of being opposed by an Orthodox Christian.


They want to change the tradition of the church without opposition. That's pretty much what it comes down to. They want the Orthodox to be just like the liberal Episcopalians in America. They look to them for inspiration, motivation, hope and instruction.

Wow. Just when I thought Jim had the audacity to speak for augustin and me, you take over.

It is like you know me . . .

Please prove the above. That I or augustin do any of the above.

The thing is in the thread. Jim and you put words into others' mouths, ignore replies, and are actually upset when others repeat back to you what you have actually said.

Weird ain't it. And yet, I am at least the ***. Cause I don't get all cow-eyed. And make rhetorical questions about the sad state of internet board etiquette.

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« Reply #112 on: August 10, 2011, 03:40:02 AM »

Yes, Hazelden as a teen. It didn't work, and was kind of a stupid place. I'm not implying anything, positive or negative, by mentioning my time there. I was simply explaining my own reality, which is what it is. I don't know what "of course" means.

What shocks me is that you actually think of things in terms of "knocking one out of the park". I'm not thinking about whether I'm tossing you softballs with which to put me down; I'm thinking about telling the truth, and it shocks me that I have to contend with people trying to belittle me with wit at every corner on a forum for Christians.

To the bolded part, I simply mean that I want to know Christ, and my true desire is to be close to God, and as such, I truly want to shed all of the impediments between Him and I. This is not to imply that I am doing this very well.

It's all out of love.


I'm sure the liberals in the Episcopal church said the samething before they were able to take over the ECUSA.

Please prove the above assertions about augustin and me. The proof you have failed to provide. I think they call it some Latin word around here.

But it is a fallacy evidently. As are most of the posts save mine and augustin's
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« Reply #113 on: August 10, 2011, 03:41:09 AM »

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« Reply #114 on: August 10, 2011, 03:41:20 AM »

ican sniff a former Protestant from a couple of miles away. police

What do non-Protestant converts smell like?

Depends. Catholics smell like the calm before a big thunderstorm (however, traditional Catholics smell more like a damp basement). Hinus, Jains, and Sikhs generally smell like lilac mixed with cow manure. Buddhists smell like leather. Atheists like brimstone. Agnostics like a newly painted fence. Taoists are odorless. Muslims smell like body odor. That's my experience, anyway.  Anyone experience something different?
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« Reply #115 on: August 10, 2011, 03:42:04 AM »

Jim,

The answer to your question BTW, which I've answered no fewer than five times.

"Homosexuality" is part of our collective fallen humanity along with many other sexual orientations, compulsions, obsessions, etc.
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« Reply #116 on: August 10, 2011, 03:43:07 AM »

ican sniff a former Protestant from a couple of miles away. police

What do non-Protestant converts smell like?

Depends. Catholics smell like the calm before a big thunderstorm (however, traditional Catholics smell more like a damp basement). Hinus, Jains, and Sikhs generally smell like lilac mixed with cow manure. Buddhists smell like leather. Atheists like brimstone. Agnostics like a newly painted fence. Taoists are odorless. Muslims smell like body odor. That's my experience, anyway.  Anyone experience something different?
Cool.

Then to augustin, I'm carbon monoxide.
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« Reply #117 on: August 10, 2011, 03:43:25 AM »

Orthonorm, what is your stance on homosexuality and same sex relationships?

Is it a sin?
Is it comparable with Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #118 on: August 10, 2011, 03:43:56 AM »

If you think that two or three or whatever number of adults bumping uglies together is on par with murder than there is nothing I can say.
I don't. You're deflecting. I listed some other sins. Some were greater, some lesser, some on par. Yu didn't address the actual point I made.

You're on the hook now.

Please rank the sins in degree of "badness".
I honestly don't differentiate much between one sin and the next; augustin opened that door by suggesting that murder was much worse than homosexuality, which I think, outside of getting into the theology behind it, and all of the potential implications, it's fairly easy to agree with. All I meant was, and I think you understand this, that whether stealing a toothbrush is not as bad as gay sex, or whether murder is worse than gay sex, it's all sin, and thus, it's all worthy of being opposed by an Orthodox Christian.


They want to change the tradition of the church without opposition. That's pretty much what it comes down to. They want the Orthodox to be just like the liberal Episcopalians in America. They look to them for inspiration, motivation, hope and instruction.

Wow. Just when I thought Jim had the audacity to speak for augustin and me, you take over.

It is like you know me . . .

Please prove the above. That I or augustin do any of the above.

The thing is in the thread. Jim and you put words into others' mouths, ignore replies, and are actually upset when others repeat back to you what you have actually said.

Weird ain't it. And yet, I am at least the ***. Cause I don't get all cow-eyed. And make rhetorical questions about the sad state of internet board etiquette.



I don't have to know you in order to know that the tradition is being threatened. I care about preserving the tradition regardless of the motivations of the opposition on this thread.

 Many of us fought this nonsense before in the Episcopal church and elsewhere and so our patience is shot! It's gone!

And so, It's either you are for preserving the tradition or you are for changing it!
 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 03:46:43 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #119 on: August 10, 2011, 03:45:31 AM »

it's all sin, and thus, it's all worthy of being opposed by an Orthodox Christian.

For context, Jim is referring to myriad of manifestations of man's fallen state.

How does one oppose an ontological state?
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« Reply #120 on: August 10, 2011, 03:46:15 AM »

How does one oppose an ontological state?

Only Christ can do that.  Wink

"The best of man is like water,
Which benefits all things, and does not contend with them,
Which flows in places that others disdain,
Where it is in harmony with the Tao."

-Tao Te Ching
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« Reply #121 on: August 10, 2011, 03:48:10 AM »

I don't have to know you in order to know that the tradition is being threatened. I care about preserving the tradition regardless of the motivations of opposition of this thread.

It's either you are for preserving the tradition in this area or you are not. Many of us fought this nonsense before in the Episcopal church and elsewhere and so our patience is shot! It's gone!

It's either you are for preserving the tradition or not!
 

So you can insult me without any proof or merit based on YOUR experience with OTHER people who are not ME in the EPISCOPAL church. And now your are the gate keeper of Orthodox Tradition.

Again, and I am the ***. lulz.
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« Reply #122 on: August 10, 2011, 03:48:58 AM »

How does one oppose an ontological state?

Only Christ can do that.  Wink

"The best of man is like water,
Which benefits all things, and does not contend with them,
Which flows in places that others disdain,
Where it is in harmony with the Tao."

-Tao Te Ching

I was trying to open up a non-Jim discourse with Jim. Is that Taoist as well?
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« Reply #123 on: August 10, 2011, 03:50:13 AM »

Jim,

The answer to your question BTW, which I've answered no fewer than five times.

"Homosexuality" is part of our collective fallen humanity along with many other sexual orientations, compulsions, obsessions, etc.
Actually, that was the first time you did so. Every other time you merely referenced these other things without context.

As such, do you believe, as a Christian, that these other things are negatives, and that the promotion of their physical, emotional or verbal expression should be resisted/opposed? Unless you drop the whole ontological state thing, which is typical deflection.

And don't act like your snideness is part of some great big secret loving plan that will make me a bigger, better man some day. You are clearly far too advanced for us guys. When Bill Wilson tells someone he's grandiose enough times, it starts to come true, I guess.
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« Reply #124 on: August 10, 2011, 03:56:21 AM »


I was trying to open up a non-Jim discourse with Jim. Is that Taoist as well?

Jim and non-Jim are just abstractions of Jim-ness.
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« Reply #125 on: August 10, 2011, 03:57:27 AM »

How does one oppose an ontological state?

Only Christ can do that.  Wink

"The best of man is like water,
Which benefits all things, and does not contend with them,
Which flows in places that others disdain,
Where it is in harmony with the Tao."

-Tao Te Ching

In seriousness, that is the point. So the point becomes how does that play out in the public discourse within the Church in a society . . .

where

homosexuals are still treated rather poorly, at least IME. Now in NY, er NYC, er Brooklyn (the rich part) and Manhattan, and of course other places things are not so ugly.

Once that hatred for those people has gotten mixed one way or another with "Christianity", how do you handle that specific situation as a Christian:

Love.

Feed them. Clothe them. Live with them. Listen to them.

If persons of note enter into that debate within the Church as perhaps misguided in their attempts at love, we should understand the difficulties and appalling ways homosexuals have been treated at the hands of Christians.

And love them.

You want the sinners to come to the supposed hospital for them, you better not look like you are going to break their legs when they arrive for help.



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« Reply #126 on: August 10, 2011, 03:58:52 AM »

How does one oppose an ontological state?

Only Christ can do that.  Wink

"The best of man is like water,
Which benefits all things, and does not contend with them,
Which flows in places that others disdain,
Where it is in harmony with the Tao."

-Tao Te Ching

I was trying to open up a non-Jim discourse with Jim. Is that Taoist as well?

That'll never work. It is by not trying that you will accomplish your goal. Become one with the Jimness. Don't force it.
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« Reply #127 on: August 10, 2011, 03:59:03 AM »

You are clearly far too advanced for us guys. When Bill Wilson tells someone he's grandiose enough times, it starts to come true, I guess.

I fear it would take more than words over the internet.


And yes, check the UK / US thread. I am too clever for you guys! //:=)

Lighten up.

EDIT: See the upshot . . . my post above and his. And I am the ***.
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« Reply #128 on: August 10, 2011, 04:00:03 AM »

How does one oppose an ontological state?

Only Christ can do that.  Wink

"The best of man is like water,
Which benefits all things, and does not contend with them,
Which flows in places that others disdain,
Where it is in harmony with the Tao."

-Tao Te Ching

I was trying to open up a non-Jim discourse with Jim. Is that Taoist as well?

That'll never work. It is by not trying that you will accomplish your goal. Become one with the Jimness. Don't force it.

If try not, then how will I accomplish non-trying?
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« Reply #129 on: August 10, 2011, 04:00:20 AM »

I don't have to know you in order to know that the tradition is being threatened. I care about preserving the tradition regardless of the motivations of opposition of this thread.

It's either you are for preserving the tradition in this area or you are not. Many of us fought this nonsense before in the Episcopal church and elsewhere and so our patience is shot! It's gone!

It's either you are for preserving the tradition or not!
 

So you can insult me without any proof or merit based on YOUR experience with OTHER people who are not ME in the EPISCOPAL church. And now your are the gate keeper of Orthodox Tradition.

Again, and I am the ***. lulz.


Look, it's obvious you are connected to this issue in some kind of way. And it's obvious you are not satisfied with keeping the tradition the way it is.

You wouldn't be spamming the thread like this with emotional sympathetic posts if you wanted to preserve the Tradition.
  
Let's cut to the chase! We all must suffer and struggle! All of us! So there is no grounds for sympathy for one particular sin. So why the sympathy?
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« Reply #130 on: August 10, 2011, 04:02:51 AM »

And as for our (us being those of us on the board who have yet to attain the level of enlightenment, coolness, detachment, tolerance, and outright mojo that has been attained by orthonorm and augustin) alleged fixation on homosexuality above all other sins, check the prayer forum. Pretty sure a lot of other sins that a lot of folks are struggling with get brought up, owned up to, and identified as sinful.

I actually agree that we shouldn't look like we are primed to break the legs of the gay man, but I think that opposing promotion of homosexuality within the church is far from that.

And FYI, I grew up in the not rich part, with the not rich parent, not the rich one. Me and him sussed it out once I'd already left the BK for my current combo of StPB and the upstate NY woods. thanks.
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« Reply #131 on: August 10, 2011, 04:04:02 AM »

So there is no grounds for sympathy for one particular sin. So why the sympathy?

How do you sympathize with an ontological state?
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« Reply #132 on: August 10, 2011, 04:06:30 AM »


I was trying to open up a non-Jim discourse with Jim. Is that Taoist as well?

Jim and non-Jim are just abstractions of Jim-ness.
Right.
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« Reply #133 on: August 10, 2011, 04:06:42 AM »

How does one oppose an ontological state?

Only Christ can do that.  Wink

"The best of man is like water,
Which benefits all things, and does not contend with them,
Which flows in places that others disdain,
Where it is in harmony with the Tao."

-Tao Te Ching

In seriousness, that is the point. So the point becomes how does that play out in the public discourse within the Church in a society . . .

where

homosexuals are still treated rather poorly, at least IME. Now in NY, er NYC, er Brooklyn (the rich part) and Manhattan, and of course other places things are not so ugly.

Once that hatred for those people has gotten mixed one way or another with "Christianity", how do you handle that specific situation as a Christian:

Love.

Feed them. Clothe them. Live with them. Listen to them.

If persons of note enter into that debate within the Church as perhaps misguided in their attempts at love, we should understand the difficulties and appalling ways homosexuals have been treated at the hands of Christians.

And love them.

You want the sinners to come to the supposed hospital for them, you better not look like you are going to break their legs when they arrive for help.


Dude, please! Give me a break! My ancestors were treated far worse than any homosexual in this country could ever dream of! Don't give me that discrimination crap!

Why aren't you concerned about the discrimination christians will face in states and countries in where same sex marriage is legal? Why aren't you crying about that? Where is your tears for that? Why aren't you spamming this thread with sympathetic posts for that?

Is talking against same sexual behavior a hate crime to you? Is that considered discrimination to you? Dude get real!

Most homosexuals can hide their sexual preference. I can't hide my skin color! So don't give me that bull-crap!
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« Reply #134 on: August 10, 2011, 04:08:32 AM »

How does one oppose an ontological state?

Only Christ can do that.  Wink

"The best of man is like water,
Which benefits all things, and does not contend with them,
Which flows in places that others disdain,
Where it is in harmony with the Tao."

-Tao Te Ching

I was trying to open up a non-Jim discourse with Jim. Is that Taoist as well?

That'll never work. It is by not trying that you will accomplish your goal. Become one with the Jimness. Don't force it.

If try not, then how will I accomplish non-trying?

I suppose you could try to not try but cultivating humility, silence, non-acquisitiveness, meekness, gentleness, and so forth. I know some of these aren't favorite virtues of yours though. You'd make a terrible Taoist. Tongue
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