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Author Topic: Homosexulaity and the Church--was part of Re: Interesting development in the OCA  (Read 20226 times) Average Rating: 0
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orthonorm
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« Reply #180 on: August 10, 2011, 12:51:21 PM »

orthonorm, you just still don't get it... No, homosexuality is not natural. Neither is death...

You missed that boat along time ago. I offered to discussed the ontological nature of sin, but you dropped the ball, not to mention the hysterics around the issue in general.

And really, do I have make the joke about assume? You are still a bit clouded here in your thinking.

I leave you to the sidelines.
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« Reply #181 on: August 10, 2011, 12:52:57 PM »

orthonorm, you just still don't get it... No, homosexuality is not natural. Neither is death...

You cannot say that sinfulness is something that is "natural", it's simply not. It's a corruption.

That's a really important distinction in all of this.

Also, re: the other, more important, more tangible things that we could actually be doing, and changing, as Christians: those are the things that I like to hope we are all doing, as much as we can, out here in the real world, as opposed to discussing online. If I do something charitable, or volunteer somewhere, or help another man in any way, I don't go trumpeting it on OC.net, but I do find it interesting to discuss issues I can't control in this setting.
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« Reply #182 on: August 10, 2011, 12:53:34 PM »

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Now, augustin, I'm not saying you are or aren't Orthodox. That is entirely up to you. I am just saying why it is so important to know who is and who isn't Orthodox on this website. It isn't just private business when we are representing the Church on a public website.
Delusions of grandeur, buddy? I only represent myself here and elsewhere, not "the Church". and so do you. Or what do you think? I also prophesy that soon you will become a Reader and represent the Church in that capacity. Maybe even a Subdeacon.
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« Reply #183 on: August 10, 2011, 12:53:55 PM »

Because, people come on here and read things, and if someone isn't Orthodox, or if someone doesn't agree with our teachings, it needs to be made clear that they aren't a part of the Church.
Now, augustin, I'm not saying you are or aren't Orthodox. That is entirely up to you. I am just saying why it is so important to know who is and who isn't Orthodox on this website. It isn't just private business when we are representing the Church on a public website.

Point. Match. Set. Game. augustine

He actually pointed out such behavior and you post right after him.
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« Reply #184 on: August 10, 2011, 12:54:39 PM »

I would also like to point out something I thought would be obvious to anybody with some experience in the Church: that you have to be willing to live with some sort of hypocrisy in the concrete life of a parish. I mean there will always be a discrepancy between what it's written and what it's done. If you cannot live with that then your place isn't in the Orthodox Church, as this is the gear it has been running into for ever. The danger is-and I have seen it happen in real life- that culture war refugee type of converts will actively hunt homosexuals in their parishes, since they have a still skewed idea of how an Orthodox parish is run.

So your saying I, and other converts like me will inevitably go on a witch hunt for homosexuals?

I can't speak for others, but I know I definitely won't do that. As I said, I have a very close friend is an actively practicing homosexual, but I don't make any effort to "out" him. I have no desire to go on a witch hunt within the Church for homosexuals. But, if someone who is a homosexual, starts trying to change the Church, and starts trying to promote his own agenda contrary to the teachings of the Church, then yes, we need to step up, especially if these people are in positions of power.

Take this example... You are sitting in class, and all the sudden the teacher starts chastising people in the class for shooting rubber bands. You know you did it once, but you've stopped, and haven't done it for weeks, you even apologized to the teacher. So you know that she isn't addressing you, but rather the others who haven't stopped and who haven't apologized.

That is the same thing as this situation... For those who are homosexual, but who aren't living in that lifestyle, and who are quietly working out their salvation in the Church, they have absolutely nothing to worry about, and these speeches and bullet-points aren't directed towards them. Rather, they are directed to those who refuse to listen to the Church, and who refuse to repent. It is also directed towards those who, while not homosexual, are trying to teach that homosexuality is okay.
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« Reply #185 on: August 10, 2011, 12:55:52 PM »

orthonorm, you just still don't get it... No, homosexuality is not natural. Neither is death...

You missed that boat along time ago. I offered to discussed the ontological nature of sin, but you dropped the ball, not to mention the hysterics around the issue in general.

And really, do I have make the joke about assume? You are still a bit clouded here in your thinking.

I leave you to the sidelines.

So I pass out due to pain medication, wake up hours later, come back, and now I've supposedly missed the boat and lost the discussion, just because I'm not constantly monitoring a thread?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #186 on: August 10, 2011, 01:01:09 PM »

I feel these are most certainly relevant here:

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/ethics/hopko_homosexual_christian.htm

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Homosexuality
(this has many links to Orthodox sources at the bottom)
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« Reply #187 on: August 10, 2011, 01:03:59 PM »

What a  joke. Hopefully they'll find some other excuse than his alleged homosexuality or else they'll have to explain why nothing happens to those afflicted with similar "passions" in the hierarchy. The  conservative  metropolitan's dealings with Gleb Podmoshenski do not look quite kosher either.

it could be an "alleged homosexuality" , but than what would be the reason of his destitution?
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« Reply #188 on: August 10, 2011, 01:05:22 PM »

orthonorm, you just still don't get it... No, homosexuality is not natural. Neither is death...

You cannot say that sinfulness is something that is "natural", it's simply not. It's a corruption.

That's a really important distinction in all of this.

Also, re: the other, more important, more tangible things that we could actually be doing, and changing, as Christians: those are the things that I like to hope we are all doing, as much as we can, out here in the real world, as opposed to discussing online. If I do something charitable, or volunteer somewhere, or help another man in any way, I don't go trumpeting it on OC.net, but I do find it interesting to discuss issues I can't control in this setting.

You just did.

Then speak up.

And don't get all humble. I can quote where you claimed otherwise. Don't argue, just don't do it again.

And Jim you are on the sidelines of the nature of sin with Devin. You both have shown enough in this thread. If you want to grab an apologetics text, go ahead. I would suggest it.

Lawyering up on the term nature, as I predicted.

Gotta bring something new to the table. And go back and read this thread. You can insult me all you want and you have at in least in five different ways, I truly don't care. But I've said nothing about you that you haven't said about yourself. So don't cry wolf.

Start a thread about what you can't control. Would much more interesting and hardly divisive.

I'll put in.

Sorry Jim, just like a few others here who I don't agree with, if you don't like my rhetoric, gotta live with it, until a mod tells me to stop. And then I will. It serves a purpose. Whether you see it or not, it is effective. Maybe not for you, but maybe so.







 
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« Reply #189 on: August 10, 2011, 01:06:57 PM »

orthonorm, you just still don't get it... No, homosexuality is not natural. Neither is death...

You missed that boat along time ago. I offered to discussed the ontological nature of sin, but you dropped the ball, not to mention the hysterics around the issue in general.

And really, do I have make the joke about assume? You are still a bit clouded here in your thinking.

I leave you to the sidelines.

So I pass out due to pain medication, wake up hours later, come back, and now I've supposedly missed the boat and lost the discussion, just because I'm not constantly monitoring a thread?  Roll Eyes

You really were off point from just after the beginning, it just got worse.
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« Reply #190 on: August 10, 2011, 01:07:40 PM »

Just admit you're selfish and don't put God first and don't see yourself changing in the future and then you will be just as honest at least as a guy who says he is gay and ain't looking to stop.

I think this little snippet is your most problematic statement.

If I don't have the intention to repent of a sin, then I shouldn't receive communion. It's not about honesty, it's about intentions and repentance. If I go to confession and confess that I am a glutton but that I have no intention to slow down my eating the next week, then it's not really a confession at all. It's more like a conversation about vices. I really think that we're supposed to walk away from the Mysteries with the intention to be forever changed and to never commit the action again. Sometime we fall right after communion (this has happened with me and overeating at our parish's communal meal right after liturgy). But I didn't approach the chalice with the intention of gorging myself right afterward. I fell.

The same principle applies here, I think. If the person thinks that the sin is not really a big deal and they don't plan on changing, then they aren't really confessing, just musing. And they should not approach the chalice, as they might eat and drink condemnation on themselves.

Not to play the "you're just a catechumen" card, as I was one for about three years myself, but you might really benefit from taking a back seat to all of the politics and BS getting pushed around here. It's not very healthy. But what do I know? Anyway, maybe I was making too much out of your statement, or it was written in haste and not with much thought.

No matter the situation, forgive me a sinner and pray for me. (And no, I'm not trying to phone in the piety. I mean it.)
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« Reply #191 on: August 10, 2011, 01:12:37 PM »

orthonorm, what I have said about nature and about sin is completely Orthodox, and is completely from an Orthodox perspective, I haven't spoken out of my own mouth/brain. If you disagree, then I would strongly suggest that you should be the one to start reading and listening to Orthodox about sin and the nature of human beings.

Sin is separation from God, it is not natural, it is a corruption, and now, after the fall, we have become subject to it.
What is natural for human beings, is to be in communion with God, to become divine. Only when we reach deification will we be truly in our nature.

There isn't anything I've said about nature or sin that wasn't completely Orthodox.
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« Reply #192 on: August 10, 2011, 01:13:36 PM »

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I'm not saying we need to ostracize gays, absolutely far from it. If someone is homosexual, you and I should not know it. It is something that is to remain between them, their Priest, and God
So,they need to be utterly invisible, otherwise your born-again heart will be hurt.
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« Reply #193 on: August 10, 2011, 01:15:41 PM »

Just admit you're selfish and don't put God first and don't see yourself changing in the future and then you will be just as honest at least as a guy who says he is gay and ain't looking to stop.

I think this little snippet is your most problematic statement.

If I don't have the intention to repent of a sin, then I shouldn't receive communion. It's not about honesty, it's about intentions and repentance. If I go to confession and confess that I am a glutton but that I have no intention to slow down my eating the next week, then it's not really a confession at all. It's more like a conversation about vices. I really think that we're supposed to walk away from the Mysteries with the intention to be forever changed and to never commit the action again. Sometime we fall right after communion (this has happened with me and overeating at our parish's communal meal right after liturgy). But I didn't approach the chalice with the intention of gorging myself right afterward. I fell.

The same principle applies here, I think. If the person thinks that the sin is not really a big deal and they don't plan on changing, then they aren't really confessing, just musing. And they should not approach the chalice, as they might eat and drink condemnation on themselves.

Not to play the "you're just a catechumen" card, as I was one for about three years myself, but you might really benefit from taking a back seat to al of the politics and BS getting pushed around here. It's not very healthy. But what do I know? Anyway, maybe I was making too much out of your statement, or it was written in haste and not with much thought.

No matter the situation, forgive me a sinner and pray for me. (And no, I'm not trying to phone in the piety. I mean it.)

Thanks for the advice, no irony. But if you want to parse it that way. It is the same. And we really were not talking preparation for communion.

You point is taken, but is more a matter of syntax. (I hate when people say sematics).

This certainly isn't healthy! But as I said, I honestly do stuff I think I probably shouldn't. And I am admitting that this post is one of them.

But the main point I wanted to make has been made and will take your advice!

Point: Stop focusing on homosexuality in others you cannot possibly change right now and look at yourself. If you are gong to substitute something else in there and tell me the same, I agree.

Apologies and forgiveness from everyone . . . for unintentional harm done.

See how you put me in my place? //:=) I keep trying to tell you.
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« Reply #194 on: August 10, 2011, 01:16:39 PM »

orthonorm, you just still don't get it... No, homosexuality is not natural. Neither is death...

You cannot say that sinfulness is something that is "natural", it's simply not. It's a corruption.

That's a really important distinction in all of this.

Also, re: the other, more important, more tangible things that we could actually be doing, and changing, as Christians: those are the things that I like to hope we are all doing, as much as we can, out here in the real world, as opposed to discussing online. If I do something charitable, or volunteer somewhere, or help another man in any way, I don't go trumpeting it on OC.net, but I do find it interesting to discuss issues I can't control in this setting.

You just did.

Then speak up.

And don't get all humble. I can quote where you claimed otherwise. Don't argue, just don't do it again.

And Jim you are on the sidelines of the nature of sin with Devin. You both have shown enough in this thread. If you want to grab an apologetics text, go ahead. I would suggest it.

Lawyering up on the term nature, as I predicted.

Gotta bring something new to the table. And go back and read this thread. You can insult me all you want and you have at in least in five different ways, I truly don't care. But I've said nothing about you that you haven't said about yourself. So don't cry wolf.

Start a thread about what you can't control. Would much more interesting and hardly divisive.

I'll put in.

Sorry Jim, just like a few others here who I don't agree with, if you don't like my rhetoric, gotta live with it, until a mod tells me to stop. And then I will. It serves a purpose. Whether you see it or not, it is effective. Maybe not for you, but maybe so.







 

You're making a lot of accusations here, with nothing behind them. Please tell Devin and I exactly where we have missed the boat with regard to the nature of sin, your grace, and don't just exclaim that you already have. If we are understand sin as a corruption of our true nature, as a separation from God, what exactly is off about this?

And I'd like to know where I claimed otherwise, with regard to my own humility, or, again, where I insulted you "5 times". Please cite these things, or don't say them, because every time I've ever accused you of insulting me, or of misrepresenting who/where/what I am, I have cited and explained.
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« Reply #195 on: August 10, 2011, 01:21:59 PM »

Just admit you're selfish and don't put God first and don't see yourself changing in the future and then you will be just as honest at least as a guy who says he is gay and ain't looking to stop.

I think this little snippet is your most problematic statement.

If I don't have the intention to repent of a sin, then I shouldn't receive communion. It's not about honesty, it's about intentions and repentance. If I go to confession and confess that I am a glutton but that I have no intention to slow down my eating the next week, then it's not really a confession at all. It's more like a conversation about vices. I really think that we're supposed to walk away from the Mysteries with the intention to be forever changed and to never commit the action again. Sometime we fall right after communion (this has happened with me and overeating at our parish's communal meal right after liturgy). But I didn't approach the chalice with the intention of gorging myself right afterward. I fell.

The same principle applies here, I think. If the person thinks that the sin is not really a big deal and they don't plan on changing, then they aren't really confessing, just musing. And they should not approach the chalice, as they might eat and drink condemnation on themselves.

Not to play the "you're just a catechumen" card, as I was one for about three years myself, but you might really benefit from taking a back seat to al of the politics and BS getting pushed around here. It's not very healthy. But what do I know? Anyway, maybe I was making too much out of your statement, or it was written in haste and not with much thought.

No matter the situation, forgive me a sinner and pray for me. (And no, I'm not trying to phone in the piety. I mean it.)

Thanks for the advice, no irony. But if you want to parse it that way. It is the same. And we really were not talking preparation for communion.

You point is taken, but is more a matter of syntax. (I hate when people say sematics).

This certainly isn't healthy! But as I said, I honestly do stuff I think I probably shouldn't. And I am admitting that this post is one of them.

But the main point I wanted to make has been made and will take your advice!

Point: Stop focusing on homosexuality in others you cannot possibly change right now and look at yourself. If you are gong to substitute something else in there and tell me the same, I agree.

Apologies and forgiveness from everyone . . . for unintentional harm done.

See how you put me in my place? //:=) I keep trying to tell you.

Point: What we are applauding here is not going out ourselves and burning gays at the stake, or morphing them into jocks with harems of bimbos, or monks. We are applauding the hierarchy of the church taking a step against something that, from an OC perspective, cannot be seen as anything but a problem. I am certainly better served to work on my own issues, first of which are my constant failings as a father and husband  Tongue, but it does not preclude me from having an opinion, nor does it preclude me from agreeing with an Orthodox hierarch, whose role is absolutely to think about the sins of others. No one in this thread is hunting for gays, our own sins be damned; we're having a discussion.
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« Reply #196 on: August 10, 2011, 01:23:06 PM »

Quote
I'm not saying we need to ostracize gays, absolutely far from it. If someone is homosexual, you and I should not know it. It is something that is to remain between them, their Priest, and God
So,they need to be utterly invisible, otherwise your born-again heart will be hurt.

Wow, so now you've made me a born-again?

And no, their homosexuality should be invisible. I don't need to know what sins they are struggling with, nor does anyone else. It is a sin they have to fight and a sin they have to fight with the rest of their life.
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« Reply #197 on: August 10, 2011, 01:25:45 PM »

How the **** are any of you getting any work done, today? Wink

And I'm too dazed to find who Augustin was quoting above, but no one should know that a homosexual is homosexual? So now his/her entire life is DADT? Thank God I don't have that attitude, because whether fortunately or unfortunately, my friends came to see me first -- not their priest. We're here to listen, help in what infinitesimal way we can, and try to point them in the right direction.

It's a dangerous way of thinking.

It's my choice to talk to a fellow church member about the struggles I am having and the same options go for a homosexual. Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #198 on: August 10, 2011, 01:26:06 PM »

Sorry guys, see Alveus advice. But Jim I did point some of them out along the way. I bolded them in fact. There are more.

But it's OK.

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« Reply #199 on: August 10, 2011, 01:26:41 PM »

Quote
I'm not saying we need to ostracize gays, absolutely far from it. If someone is homosexual, you and I should not know it. It is something that is to remain between them, their Priest, and God
So,they need to be utterly invisible, otherwise your born-again heart will be hurt.

Wow, so now you've made me a born-again?

And no, their homosexuality should be invisible. I don't need to know what sins they are struggling with, nor does anyone else. It is a sin they have to fight and a sin they have to fight with the rest of their life.

I see.  So their sin is all about you now.

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« Reply #200 on: August 10, 2011, 01:28:32 PM »

If someone tried to defend lying as a perfectly natural action people would be just as up in arms about it as they are when homosexuality is given that pass. If everyone agreed that homosexuality is a distortion as much as hate or greed is, then there would be a lot less threads about it. Things are suddenly much less interesting when everyone agrees.
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« Reply #201 on: August 10, 2011, 01:31:39 PM »

How the **** are any of you getting any work done, today? Wink

And I'm too dazed to find who Augustin was quoting above, but no one should know that a homosexual is homosexual? So now his/her entire life is DADT? Thank God I don't have that attitude, because whether fortunately or unfortunately, my friends came to see me first -- not their priest. We're here to listen, help in what infinitesimal way we can, and try to point them in the right direction.

It's a dangerous way of thinking.

It's my choice to talk to a fellow church member about the struggles I am having and the same options go for a homosexual. Lord have mercy.

He was quoting me, but my point wasn't that it should be DADT. My point was that they sin should be between them, their Priest and God. They shouldn't be "out" and trying to push their sin on others, trying to make it okay.

However, that also doesn't mean it should be DADT. If they choose to confide in someone else and tell them, that is okay. Just as long as they aren't trying to justify their sin.

Think of an alcoholic... Only their Priest, themself and God knows about their alcoholism. But, they choose to tell their friends and family, so their friends and family can help them fight against the alcoholism. That is something that is completely okay to do. However, if the alcoholic tries to convince their friends and family that their mass consumption of alcohol is okay, then we have a problem.
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« Reply #202 on: August 10, 2011, 01:32:49 PM »

How the **** are any of you getting any work done, today? Wink

And I'm too dazed to find who Augustin was quoting above, but no one should know that a homosexual is homosexual? So now his/her entire life is DADT? Thank God I don't have that attitude, because whether fortunately or unfortunately, my friends came to see me first -- not their priest. We're here to listen, help in what infinitesimal way we can, and try to point them in the right direction.

It's a dangerous way of thinking.

It's my choice to talk to a fellow church member about the struggles I am having and the same options go for a homosexual. Lord have mercy.

are you gay?
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« Reply #203 on: August 10, 2011, 01:33:47 PM »

If someone tried to defend lying as a perfectly natural action people would be just as up in arms about it as they are when homosexuality is given that pass. If everyone agreed that homosexuality is a distortion as much as hate or greed is, then there would be a lot less threads about it. Things are suddenly much less interesting when everyone agrees.

That is why I've been trying to ask orthonorm and augustin for their stance on homosexuality.

If we can agree that homosexuality is a distortion (just as much as hate or greed), then we have no reason to argue. But I haven't seen such evidence that orthonorm or augustin hold that position.
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« Reply #204 on: August 10, 2011, 01:35:22 PM »

But you contradicted yourself in another post above. "Invisible" is different from pushing it on people and "justifying it."

Saying that their homosexuality should be invisible is also another interesting point to go with -- do you mean they should not "behave" like a homosexual, which itself is going into uncharted waters that I'd rather not venture into?
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« Reply #205 on: August 10, 2011, 01:35:44 PM »

How the **** are any of you getting any work done, today? Wink

And I'm too dazed to find who Augustin was quoting above, but no one should know that a homosexual is homosexual? So now his/her entire life is DADT? Thank God I don't have that attitude, because whether fortunately or unfortunately, my friends came to see me first -- not their priest. We're here to listen, help in what infinitesimal way we can, and try to point them in the right direction.

It's a dangerous way of thinking.

It's my choice to talk to a fellow church member about the struggles I am having and the same options go for a homosexual. Lord have mercy.

are you gay?
LOL guys, post of the month.
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« Reply #206 on: August 10, 2011, 01:37:49 PM »

How the **** are any of you getting any work done, today? Wink

And I'm too dazed to find who Augustin was quoting above, but no one should know that a homosexual is homosexual? So now his/her entire life is DADT? Thank God I don't have that attitude, because whether fortunately or unfortunately, my friends came to see me first -- not their priest. We're here to listen, help in what infinitesimal way we can, and try to point them in the right direction.

It's a dangerous way of thinking.

It's my choice to talk to a fellow church member about the struggles I am having and the same options go for a homosexual. Lord have mercy.

are you gay?
LOL guys, post of the month.

So you're not denying it!?  Grin
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« Reply #207 on: August 10, 2011, 01:41:22 PM »

But you contradicted yourself in another post above. "Invisible" is different from pushing it on people and "justifying it."

Saying that their homosexuality should be invisible is also another interesting point to go with -- do you mean they should not "behave" like a homosexual, which itself is going into uncharted waters that I'd rather not venture into?

Depends on what you mean like "behave"... If they are in a homosexual relationship, then no, that shouldn't.

But if you mean "behave" as in the stereotypical "behavior" of a gay person, then I see nothing wrong.
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« Reply #208 on: August 10, 2011, 01:46:52 PM »

If someone tried to defend lying as a perfectly natural action people would be just as up in arms about it as they are when homosexuality is given that pass. If everyone agreed that homosexuality is a distortion as much as hate or greed is, then there would be a lot less threads about it. Things are suddenly much less interesting when everyone agrees.

This is really the whole point, and it is why we get hung up on this issue. Not because we view it as a greater sin, or a greater issue, but because so many would minimize it.
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« Reply #209 on: August 10, 2011, 02:02:11 PM »

If someone tried to defend lying as a perfectly natural action people would be just as up in arms about it as they are when homosexuality is given that pass. If everyone agreed that homosexuality is a distortion as much as hate or greed is, then there would be a lot less threads about it. Things are suddenly much less interesting when everyone agrees.

This is really the whole point, and it is why we get hung up on this issue. Not because we view it as a greater sin, or a greater issue, but because so many would minimize it.

Far more minimize usury (ie credit cards) than homosexuality.  There are dozens of canons about usury.  Where's the outcry about that?  Divorce numbers are obscene in this country.  While the Orthodox Church allows for such a thing, it is also patently clear that it is a sin and lamentable.  More Orthodox go to great lengths to defend divorce (esp. online vis-a-vis RCs) than who lambast this practice.
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« Reply #210 on: August 10, 2011, 02:04:57 PM »

By the way, just to be clear:

I am not gay.  Never have been.  Have never had any interest, although I do admit to a sinful enjoyment of clothes (esp. shoes) and show tunes.
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« Reply #211 on: August 10, 2011, 02:06:08 PM »


So you're not denying it!?  Grin
It's more fun to be mysterious...I mean, it IS only between me, God, and my priest anyway...
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« Reply #212 on: August 10, 2011, 02:06:50 PM »

By the way, just to be clear:

I am not gay.  Never have been.  Have never had any interest, although I do admit to a sinful enjoyment of clothes (esp. shoes) and show tunes.

Wait- there are prohibitions against show tunes?
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« Reply #213 on: August 10, 2011, 02:07:02 PM »

 More Orthodox go to great lengths to defend divorce (esp. online vis-a-vis RCs) than who lambast this practice.

+1, even if you do like show tunes.
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« Reply #214 on: August 10, 2011, 02:07:28 PM »


So you're not denying it!?  Grin
It's more fun to be mysterious...I mean, it IS only between me, God, and my priest anyway...

Oh, come now.  We can hear the "ntss, ntss, ntss" every time you post.

Or would a lesbian's soundtrack be more Indigo Girls than Ru Paul?
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« Reply #215 on: August 10, 2011, 02:09:40 PM »

 More Orthodox go to great lengths to defend divorce (esp. online vis-a-vis RCs) than who lambast this practice.

+1, even if you do like show tunes.

GASP!  YOU DONT?!

Seriously, one of my wife's best friend's gave me about 50 old vinyl LPs of show tune soundtracks that her mother was getting rid of (for space reasons).  I nearly died when I saw the original Mary Martin/Cyril Ritchard Peter Pan and a number of Julie Andrews Broadway soundtracks.

My wife asked me, "Is there something you have to tell me?"
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« Reply #216 on: August 10, 2011, 02:10:36 PM »

I prefer Ani Difranc -- OOPS!  Embarrassed Busted.

P.S. I do like showtunes, actually. Orthonorm was giving me **** about which ones I like on the other thread. I think it's "okay" to like them if you're a singer, though.  Tongue
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« Reply #217 on: August 10, 2011, 02:10:46 PM »

By the way, just to be clear:

I am not gay.  Never have been.  Have never had any interest, although I do admit to a sinful enjoyment of clothes (esp. shoes) and show tunes.

Wait- there are prohibitions against show tunes?

At least during fasting periods.
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« Reply #218 on: August 10, 2011, 02:11:37 PM »

If someone tried to defend lying as a perfectly natural action people would be just as up in arms about it as they are when homosexuality is given that pass. If everyone agreed that homosexuality is a distortion as much as hate or greed is, then there would be a lot less threads about it. Things are suddenly much less interesting when everyone agrees.

This is really the whole point, and it is why we get hung up on this issue. Not because we view it as a greater sin, or a greater issue, but because so many would minimize it.

Far more minimize usury (ie credit cards) than homosexuality.  There are dozens of canons about usury.  Where's the outcry about that?  Divorce numbers are obscene in this country.  While the Orthodox Church allows for such a thing, it is also patently clear that it is a sin and lamentable.  More Orthodox go to great lengths to defend divorce (esp. online vis-a-vis RCs) than who lambast this practice.

I agree with everything you've said, but how does that have any effect on how one should feel about homosexuality? All of those things are big problems, yes, and warrant discussion. Start one.

It's as if I said that the New England Patriots are a good football team, and you responded by saying, "but the Eagles are good, too!" This, while true, doesn't negate the fact that the Patriots are good. If I said, "the Patriots are undeniably going to win the Super Bowl", then there would be an argument, just like if I had said, "homosexuality is the gravest sin of our time, and the only one worth addressing", you would have an argument, but no one said this.
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« Reply #219 on: August 10, 2011, 02:16:28 PM »

If someone tried to defend lying as a perfectly natural action people would be just as up in arms about it as they are when homosexuality is given that pass. If everyone agreed that homosexuality is a distortion as much as hate or greed is, then there would be a lot less threads about it. Things are suddenly much less interesting when everyone agrees.

This is really the whole point, and it is why we get hung up on this issue. Not because we view it as a greater sin, or a greater issue, but because so many would minimize it.

Far more minimize usury (ie credit cards) than homosexuality.  There are dozens of canons about usury.  Where's the outcry about that?  Divorce numbers are obscene in this country.  While the Orthodox Church allows for such a thing, it is also patently clear that it is a sin and lamentable.  More Orthodox go to great lengths to defend divorce (esp. online vis-a-vis RCs) than who lambast this practice.

I agree with everything you've said, but how does that have any effect on how one should feel about homosexuality? All of those things are big problems, yes, and warrant discussion. Start one.

It's as if I said that the New England Patriots are a good football team, and you responded by saying, "but the Eagles are good, too!" This, while true, doesn't negate the fact that the Patriots are good. If I said, "the Patriots are undeniably going to win the Super Bowl", then there would be an argument, just like if I had said, "homosexuality is the gravest sin of our time, and the only one worth addressing", you would have an argument, but no one said this.

My point is that the way people go on and on and on and on (to the point where we once had to have a moratorium on homosexuality on OC.net!) is that while it may not explicitly be stated that it's the gravest sin, it is implicitly acted as if it is such.  Note that people such as myself, who do not deny and even actively say that homosexual acts are objectively sinful and against the law of God, get absolutely and utterly sick of hearing about it.  Who on here exalts the practice?  Who even brings it up in a positive light first?  The only time it is mentioned on here is in yet another post whereby we hear someone condemn it once again.

I ignore 99% of them.  For some reason, this one put me over the edge.
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« Reply #220 on: August 10, 2011, 02:17:25 PM »

I prefer Ani Difranc -- OOPS!  Embarrassed Busted.

P.S. I do like showtunes, actually. Orthonorm was giving me **** about which ones I like on the other thread. I think it's "okay" to like them if you're a singer, though.  Tongue

Which thread was this?  Because I need to give Mr. Orthonorm a piece of my mind...ala Ethel Merman.
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« Reply #221 on: August 10, 2011, 04:31:48 PM »

If someone tried to defend lying as a perfectly natural action people would be just as up in arms about it as they are when homosexuality is given that pass. If everyone agreed that homosexuality is a distortion as much as hate or greed is, then there would be a lot less threads about it. Things are suddenly much less interesting when everyone agrees.

This is really the whole point, and it is why we get hung up on this issue. Not because we view it as a greater sin, or a greater issue, but because so many would minimize it.

Far more minimize usury (ie credit cards) than homosexuality.  There are dozens of canons about usury.  Where's the outcry about that?  Divorce numbers are obscene in this country.  While the Orthodox Church allows for such a thing, it is also patently clear that it is a sin and lamentable.  More Orthodox go to great lengths to defend divorce (esp. online vis-a-vis RCs) than who lambast this practice.

I agree with everything you've said, but how does that have any effect on how one should feel about homosexuality? All of those things are big problems, yes, and warrant discussion. Start one.

It's as if I said that the New England Patriots are a good football team, and you responded by saying, "but the Eagles are good, too!" This, while true, doesn't negate the fact that the Patriots are good. If I said, "the Patriots are undeniably going to win the Super Bowl", then there would be an argument, just like if I had said, "homosexuality is the gravest sin of our time, and the only one worth addressing", you would have an argument, but no one said this.

My point is that the way people go on and on and on and on (to the point where we once had to have a moratorium on homosexuality on OC.net!) is that while it may not explicitly be stated that it's the gravest sin, it is implicitly acted as if it is such.  Note that people such as myself, who do not deny and even actively say that homosexual acts are objectively sinful and against the law of God, get absolutely and utterly sick of hearing about it.  Who on here exalts the practice?  Who even brings it up in a positive light first?  The only time it is mentioned on here is in yet another post whereby we hear someone condemn it once again.

I ignore 99% of them.  For some reason, this one put me over the edge.
I can understand why. Someone brings up the idea that Mark Stokoe was removed from his seat on the Metropolitan Council for ethical reasons connected to the publication of possibly stolen emails and not for reasons tied to his alleged homosexual orientation, yet no one wants to address the ethical charges. The discussion of homosexuality goes on unabated.

You must be gay, too, PtA.  You just want to sweep the gay under the rug. Wink
Yeah, there must be a reason why I'm almost 40 and never been laid. Wink

Maybe God is calling you to the monastic lifestyle? Smiley

j/k
Nah. I have no desire to become a monk. I do have a desire to confront and overcome all these childhood development issues and neuroses that keep me from enjoying a healthy relationship, though.

That's probably more information than most want to know about me, and it certainly is off-topic, if anything can be off-topic in this meandering rambler of a thread, so I really don't want to go any further into my relationship problems here. Smiley
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« Reply #222 on: August 12, 2011, 11:36:14 AM »

If someone tried to defend lying as a perfectly natural action people would be just as up in arms about it as they are when homosexuality is given that pass. If everyone agreed that homosexuality is a distortion as much as hate or greed is, then there would be a lot less threads about it. Things are suddenly much less interesting when everyone agrees.

This is really the whole point, and it is why we get hung up on this issue. Not because we view it as a greater sin, or a greater issue, but because so many would minimize it.

Far more minimize usury (ie credit cards) than homosexuality.  There are dozens of canons about usury.  Where's the outcry about that?  Divorce numbers are obscene in this country.  While the Orthodox Church allows for such a thing, it is also patently clear that it is a sin and lamentable.  More Orthodox go to great lengths to defend divorce (esp. online vis-a-vis RCs) than who lambast this practice.

I agree with everything you've said, but how does that have any effect on how one should feel about homosexuality? All of those things are big problems, yes, and warrant discussion. Start one.

It's as if I said that the New England Patriots are a good football team, and you responded by saying, "but the Eagles are good, too!" This, while true, doesn't negate the fact that the Patriots are good. If I said, "the Patriots are undeniably going to win the Super Bowl", then there would be an argument, just like if I had said, "homosexuality is the gravest sin of our time, and the only one worth addressing", you would have an argument, but no one said this.

My point is that the way people go on and on and on and on (to the point where we once had to have a moratorium on homosexuality on OC.net!) is that while it may not explicitly be stated that it's the gravest sin, it is implicitly acted as if it is such.  Note that people such as myself, who do not deny and even actively say that homosexual acts are objectively sinful and against the law of God, get absolutely and utterly sick of hearing about it.  Who on here exalts the practice?  Who even brings it up in a positive light first?  The only time it is mentioned on here is in yet another post whereby we hear someone condemn it once again.

I ignore 99% of them.  For some reason, this one put me over the edge.

Well said my friend.
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« Reply #223 on: August 12, 2011, 01:29:28 PM »

If someone tried to defend lying as a perfectly natural action people would be just as up in arms about it as they are when homosexuality is given that pass. If everyone agreed that homosexuality is a distortion as much as hate or greed is, then there would be a lot less threads about it. Things are suddenly much less interesting when everyone agrees.

This is really the whole point, and it is why we get hung up on this issue. Not because we view it as a greater sin, or a greater issue, but because so many would minimize it.

Far more minimize usury (ie credit cards) than homosexuality.  There are dozens of canons about usury.  Where's the outcry about that?  Divorce numbers are obscene in this country.  While the Orthodox Church allows for such a thing, it is also patently clear that it is a sin and lamentable.  More Orthodox go to great lengths to defend divorce (esp. online vis-a-vis RCs) than who lambast this practice.

I agree with everything you've said, but how does that have any effect on how one should feel about homosexuality? All of those things are big problems, yes, and warrant discussion. Start one.

It's as if I said that the New England Patriots are a good football team, and you responded by saying, "but the Eagles are good, too!" This, while true, doesn't negate the fact that the Patriots are good. If I said, "the Patriots are undeniably going to win the Super Bowl", then there would be an argument, just like if I had said, "homosexuality is the gravest sin of our time, and the only one worth addressing", you would have an argument, but no one said this.

My point is that the way people go on and on and on and on (to the point where we once had to have a moratorium on homosexuality on OC.net!) is that while it may not explicitly be stated that it's the gravest sin, it is implicitly acted as if it is such.  Note that people such as myself, who do not deny and even actively say that homosexual acts are objectively sinful and against the law of God, get absolutely and utterly sick of hearing about it.  Who on here exalts the practice?  Who even brings it up in a positive light first?  The only time it is mentioned on here is in yet another post whereby we hear someone condemn it once again.

I ignore 99% of them.  For some reason, this one put me over the edge.

I think people like orthonorm exalt it. You can't push for homosexuality to be a regular part of life in all facets (government, schools, etc) and not expect that to creep into the Church and Christian society. Think about how much harder that is on christian parents who would have to deal with combating what their child is being taught about homosexuality in school. It can't be ok for the country but bad for the Church. It is foolish to think something as big as the holy institution of marriage being changed would have no affect on people, christian or otherwise. I mean we need to get real. The things we stand up for in Church need to be stood up for in the public forum as well. We need to fight gluttony out in the open. We need to stand up for life-long marriage. But the fact that many (including myself as the first) have become lax in one area, isn't a good reason to be lax in another; which is all I see orthonorm suggesting. And don't try to lay the line oh we want to pick on homosexuality and sex-topics. No, the plain fact is that lifestyle is a HUGE deviation from what we were created for. It is not just a rebellion against God, it is a rebellion against nature. If orthonorm really thinks that homosexuality is normal/natural, I have some old friends he needs to meet.
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« Reply #224 on: August 12, 2011, 01:47:56 PM »

Was homosexu-laity pun intended? Sorry if this was already addressed.
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