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Author Topic: Christ taught Sola Verbum Dei, which today is sola scriptura, in Mat c. 23  (Read 12101 times) Average Rating: 0
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Severian
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« Reply #225 on: August 21, 2011, 11:24:58 AM »

"...And through the prayers of the 224 God-bearing Fathers of the [insert number here]th ecumenical council at OC.net, who refuted the heresy of Perssonism"

OK, bad joke, but still... Tongue

Btw, this post wasn't supposed to be an ad hominem towards Alfred Persson, but the "Perssonism" tag inspired me. Grin
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 11:32:23 AM by Severian » Logged


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« Reply #226 on: August 21, 2011, 01:09:45 PM »

I think, that it makes perfect sense that if a new doctrine were to be established, there should be nothing in Scripture that overtly contradicts it.

Yes, this is true. Reading the Church Father's words on Scriptures leaves no doubts as to their holiness, and importance in testing all things against the writings of Moses, the Prophets, David, Solomon, the Evangelists and the Apostles.

That is what  Sola Scriptura means to me.

But it is not what Sola Scriptura appears to mean in most situations. A perfect example would be the Dormition of the Mother of God. Those who hold to Sola Scriptura might demand "where is this story in Scripture??", when of course it won't be because the Gospels pre-date the Theotokos' repose. By your standards of sola scriptura, the Dormition account does not contradict what is in Scriptures. The same is true of any part of Holy Tradition - it doesn't contradict what is written in the Scriptures. I would warn against calling this sola scriptura though, as it might end up giving you false friends among those who hold an entirely different practice in applying the Scriptures to our lives.

No, the Dormition does not contradict scripture.

But the RC doctrine of Assumption does IMO. Saying that the Theotokos could be bodily assumed into heaven without first dying physically is basically placing her at the level of a goddess. Scripture states that everyone dies, and that should include the Virgin IMO.

That is a perfect example of how a tradition can go against scripture.
I'm not aware that the Catholic dogma of the Assumption teaches that Mary never died.
So-called Immortalism is a fringe belief AFAICT, but the RCC never dogmatized against it.
Wrong. The Prophet Elijah was swept into Heaven without first bodily dying on Earth.

Swept up "as if" into Heaven, according to the Septuagint.
That the Mother of God first died before being taken up into Heaven is an extremely important and informative fact about her, and much can be derived from it.
How about Enoch?
That is a perfect example of how a tradition can go against scripture.
How do you know what contradicts Scripture and what doesn't? I'm not trying to be glib, this really seems to me to be the heart of the matter.
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« Reply #227 on: August 21, 2011, 01:48:38 PM »

No, the Dormition does not contradict scripture.

But the RC doctrine of Assumption does IMO.

It's the same thing, the only difference is they tie it into the IC and we haven't formally dogmatized it even though it is most definitely a part of our Tradition.

Kontakion of the Dormition (copied from church bulletin)
Neither the tomb, nor death, could hold the Theotokos, who is constant in prayer and our firm hope in her intercessions. For being the Mother of Life, she was translated to life by the One who dwelt in her virginal womb!

Quote
Saying that the Theotokos could be bodily assumed into heaven without first dying physically is basically placing her at the level of a goddess. Scripture states that everyone dies, and that should include the Virgin IMO.

First, the papal bull dogmatizing the assumption explicitly states that her body was assumed into heaven after her death. Second, Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dieing.
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« Reply #228 on: August 21, 2011, 06:09:48 PM »

Thanks, that was well put.
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« Reply #229 on: August 21, 2011, 08:02:59 PM »

First, the papal bull dogmatizing the assumption explicitly states that her body was assumed into heaven after her death. Second, Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dieing.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=232146

Quote from: RC Apologist, Michelle Arnold
Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus, does not define that the Blessed Virgin died, only that she "completed the course of her earthly life" (MD 44). Only the specific definition of the Assumption in paragraph 44 of Munificentissimus Deus is the infallible proclamation; the rest of the document is commentary. Although many theologians believe that the Virgin Mary did die, the Church is officially silent on the matter.
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« Reply #230 on: August 21, 2011, 08:32:51 PM »

First, the papal bull dogmatizing the assumption explicitly states that her body was assumed into heaven after her death. Second, Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dieing.
I've always wondered why Enoch didn't appear in the Transfiguration of Christ.
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« Reply #231 on: August 21, 2011, 08:43:47 PM »

First, the papal bull dogmatizing the assumption explicitly states that her body was assumed into heaven after her death. Second, Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dieing.
I've always wondered why Enoch didn't appear in the Transfiguration of Christ.
Moses represents the Law.
Elijah represents the Prophets.
What does Enoch represent that Jesus would call him to appear with Himself on Mount Tabor?
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« Reply #232 on: August 21, 2011, 08:59:56 PM »

First, the papal bull dogmatizing the assumption explicitly states that her body was assumed into heaven after her death. Second, Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dieing.
I've always wondered why Enoch didn't appear in the Transfiguration of Christ.
Moses represents the Law.
Elijah represents the Prophets.
What does Enoch represent that Jesus would call him to appear with Himself on Mount Tabor?
Maybe part of the genealogy. It is interesting that he is the 7th son of Adam though.

But my comment was hoping for something more about him during Christ's ministry. I guess it ain't important.
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« Reply #233 on: August 21, 2011, 09:10:35 PM »

First, the papal bull dogmatizing the assumption explicitly states that her body was assumed into heaven after her death. Second, Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dieing.
I've always wondered why Enoch didn't appear in the Transfiguration of Christ.
Moses represents the Law.
Elijah represents the Prophets.
What does Enoch represent that Jesus would call him to appear with Himself on Mount Tabor?

They also represent the living (Elijah) and the dead (Moses). This makes Christ both the fulfillment of the law and the prophets and Lord over the living and the dead.
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« Reply #234 on: August 21, 2011, 09:12:23 PM »

First, the papal bull dogmatizing the assumption explicitly states that her body was assumed into heaven after her death. Second, Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dieing.
I've always wondered why Enoch didn't appear in the Transfiguration of Christ.
Moses represents the Law.
Elijah represents the Prophets.
What does Enoch represent that Jesus would call him to appear with Himself on Mount Tabor?

They also represent the living (Elijah) and the dead (Moses). This makes Christ both the fulfillment of the law and the prophets and Lord over the living and the dead.
I like that representation alot, thank you!
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« Reply #235 on: August 21, 2011, 09:50:06 PM »

First, the papal bull dogmatizing the assumption explicitly states that her body was assumed into heaven after her death. Second, Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dieing.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=232146

Quote from: RC Apologist, Michelle Arnold
Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus, does not define that the Blessed Virgin died, only that she "completed the course of her earthly life" (MD 44). Only the specific definition of the Assumption in paragraph 44 of Munificentissimus Deus is the infallible proclamation; the rest of the document is commentary. Although many theologians believe that the Virgin Mary did die, the Church is officially silent on the matter.

So only certain parts of an infallible statement are infallible? I apologize for the long post.

5. Now God has willed that the Blessed Virgin Mary should be exempted from this general rule. She, by an entirely unique privilege, completely overcame sin by her Immaculate Conception, and as a result she was not subject to the law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, and she did not have to wait until the end of time for the redemption of her body.

17. In the liturgical books which deal with the feast either of the dormition or of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin there are expressions that agree in testifying that, when the Virgin Mother of God passed from this earthly exile to heaven, what happened to her sacred body was, by the decree of divine Providence, in keeping with the dignity of the Mother of the Word Incarnate, and with the other privileges she had been accorded. Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume: "Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself."[11]

18. What is here indicated in that sobriety characteristic of the Roman liturgy is presented more clearly and completely in other ancient liturgical books. To take one as an example, the Gallican sacramentary designates this privilege of Mary's as "an ineffable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin's Assumption is something unique among men." And, in the Byzantine liturgy, not only is the Virgin Mary's bodily Assumption connected time and time again with the dignity of the Mother of God, but also with the other privileges, and in particular with the virginal motherhood granted her by a singular decree of God's Providence. "God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature. As he kept you a virgin in childbirth, thus he has kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb."[12]

20. However, since the liturgy of the Church does not engender the Catholic faith, but rather springs from it, in such a way that the practices of the sacred worship proceed from the faith as the fruit comes from the tree, it follows that the holy Fathers and the great Doctors, in the homilies and sermons they gave the people on this feast day, did not draw their teaching from the feast itself as from a primary source, but rather they spoke of this doctrine as something already known and accepted by Christ's faithful. They presented it more clearly. They offered more profound explanations of its meaning and nature, bringing out into sharper light the fact that this feast shows, not only that the dead body of the Blessed Virgin Mary remained incorrupt, but that she gained a triumph out of death, her heavenly glorification after the example of her only begotten Son, Jesus Christ-truths that the liturgical books had frequently touched upon concisely and briefly.

22. These words of St. John Damascene agree perfectly with what others have taught on this same subject. Statements no less clear and accurate are to be found in sermons delivered by Fathers of an earlier time or of the same period, particularly on the occasion of this feast. And so, to cite some other examples, St. Germanus of Constantinople considered the fact that the body of Mary, the virgin Mother of God, was incorrupt and had been taken up into heaven to be in keeping, not only with her divine motherhood, but also with the special holiness of her virginal body. "You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life."[18] And another very ancient writer asserts: "As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him."[19]

28. Thus, during the earliest period of scholastic theology, that most pious man, Amadeus, Bishop of Lausarme, held that the Virgin Mary's flesh had remained incorrupt-for it is wrong to believe that her body has seen corruption-because it was really united again to her soul and, together with it, crowned with great glory in the heavenly courts. "For she was full of grace and blessed among women. She alone merited to conceive the true God of true God, whom as a virgin, she brought forth, to whom as a virgin she gave milk, fondling him in her lap, and in all things she waited upon him with loving care."[26]

35. In like manner St. Francis of Sales, after asserting that it is wrong to doubt that Jesus Christ has himself observed, in the most perfect way, the divine commandment by which children are ordered to honor their parents, asks this question: "What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death if he could?"[38] And St. Alphonsus writes that "Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death, since it would have redounded to his own dishonor to have her virginal flesh, from which he himself had assumed flesh, reduced to dust."[39]

39. We must remember especially that, since the second century, the Virgin Mary has been designated by the holy Fathers as the new Eve, who, although subject to the new Adam, is most intimately associated with him in that struggle against the infernal foe which, as foretold in the protoevangelium,[44] would finally result in that most complete victory over the sin and death which are always mentioned together in the writings of the Apostle of the Gentiles.[45] Consequently, just as the glorious resurrection of Christ was an essential part and the final sign of this victory, so that struggle which was common to the Blessed Virgin and her divine Son should be brought to a close by the glorification of her virginal body, for the same Apostle says: "When this mortal thing hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."[46]

42. We, who have placed our pontificate under the special patronage of the most holy Virgin, to whom we have had recourse so often in times of grave trouble, we who have consecrated the entire human race to her Immaculate Heart in public ceremonies, and who have time and time again experienced her powerful protection, are confident that this solemn proclamation and definition of the Assumption will contribute in no small way to the advantage of human society, since it redounds to the glory of the Most Blessed Trinity, to which the Blessed Mother of God is bound by such singular bonds. It is to be hoped that all the faithful will be stirred up to a stronger piety toward their heavenly Mother, and that the souls of all those who glory in the Christian name may be moved by the desire of sharing in the unity of Jesus Christ's Mystical Body and of increasing their love for her who shows her motherly heart to all the members of this august body. And so we may hope that those who meditate upon the glorious example Mary offers us may be more and more convinced of the value of a human life entirely devoted to carrying out the heavenly Father's will and to bringing good to others. Thus, while the illusory teachings of materialism and the corruption of morals that follows from these teachings threaten to extinguish the light of virtue and to ruin the lives of men by exciting discord among them, in this magnificent way all may see clearly to what a lofty goal our bodies and souls are destined. Finally it is our hope that belief in Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven will make our belief in our own resurrection stronger and render it more effective.
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« Reply #236 on: August 21, 2011, 10:26:46 PM »

Yeah, looks like you're right. I'd not read it before.
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