Author Topic: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?  (Read 1302 times)

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Offline JR

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What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« on: August 10, 2011, 05:13:37 AM »
What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?

do you believe in these things?

do have any equivalents?

Thanks
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Offline mike

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2011, 05:15:32 AM »
There have been many Orthodox apparitions.

I suppose that it's understandable that the Church does nit consider RC apparitions as valid or real.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2011, 05:23:34 AM »
I'm pretty sure the Church has no official stance on the RC apparitions. Some Orthodox accept them to the point of doing pilgrimages to the sites, some denounce them and everything in between I'm sure.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2011, 05:39:37 AM »
I think we had a prior topic about this that got so convoluted, for my mind anyway, that I stopped keeping up with it.  Does anyone know of anything rationally and concisely stated by a bishop or priest that summarizes an Orthodox evaluation about Fatima?  I've always found it strange (Is that he word I want?) that the Theotokos would ask that Russia be consecrated to her honor (or something like that) when at the time, Orthodoxy was the state religion of the Russian Empire.
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Offline JR

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2011, 05:57:50 AM »
I think we had a prior topic about this that got so convoluted, for my mind anyway, that I stopped keeping up with it.  Does anyone know of anything rationally and concisely stated by a bishop or priest that summarizes an Orthodox evaluation about Fatima?  I've always found it strange (Is that he word I want?) that the Theotokos would ask that Russia be consecrated to her honor (or something like that) when at the time, Orthodoxy was the state religion of the Russian Empire.

Yes I agree, I also think it is strange or even maybe coincidence that mama Mary / the Theotokos would appear to a French peasant girl and mention the immaculate conception that had only been made dogma 10 years earlier, and why would the Theotokos say : I am the Immaculate Conception"

a bit dubious don't you think.

I am catholic, but there is so much that I find very hard to accept. is it lack of faith, or am I being more closely to Orthodoxy?
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Offline J.M.C

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2011, 06:05:22 AM »
What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?

Bernadette Soubirous claimed that the apparition told her "I am the Immaculate Conception", on March 25th, 1858. So, no, I wouldn't think the apparitions are of the Theotokos. As Basil confirms with the Fatima apparition, many of the most celebrated Roman Catholic apparitions of the Mother of God are bound up with teachings which are strongly bound up with Roman Catholic teachings that the Orthodox simply don't accept.

Here is an article on the apparitions from an Orthodox point-of-view:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

I haven't read it for a while, but remembered it when I read this thread and specifically Basil's post above. Whilst not an "official" statement from a member of the clergy, I believe (or remember believing :-p) the arguments against such apparitions being genuine appearances of the Mother of God quite compelling.
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Offline Adela

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2011, 08:58:07 AM »
I don't think it was at Lourdes that the apparition instructed the world to pray for the conversion of Russia, I believe that was at Fatima. 

As a cradle Roman/Byzantine Catholic (who is seriously contemplating becoming Eastern Orthodox) I have been surprised that many think the instruction to pray for the conversion of Russia is about the Orthodox Christians.  I have always read and been taught that this was a prophesy of the start of Communism  in Russia and and that the error of Marxism/Communism would be spread throughout the world.    Fatima happened just before World War I and the Bolshevik Revolution.   The Bolsheviks (and Mensheviks) targeted the Christians and everywhere they set up their style of government, they have persecuted and martyred Christians (Orthodox, Catholic, Evangelical).   In every Catholic circles I have been, this was the understanding of that prophesy.  Noone ever mentioned Russian Orthodoxy.

I am interested in hearing what the Orthodox readers think about these apparitions.  I was drawn to them for a while but somehow they didn't really connect with me.  I guess one reason is the underlying theme of an angry father who is going to strike you with anger, if not for the pleading mother who is trying to intercede.  As someone who grew up in an alcoholic family, this just is not where I want my mind to be.  I already lived that and I think this is why I have had trouble approaching God as a "Loving Father".    As I am getting my mind around Orthodoxy, I feel happier and I feel like I can trust God and approach Him. 

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2011, 09:20:24 AM »
Personally, I don't care about these apparitions. In several ways, they spread error and a message contrary to Orthodoxy. Visions of the Mother of God in Orthodoxy are quite different, it seems to me. They are most often private and do not attract audiences. The role of the Mother of God in Orthodoxy is not to attract attention to herself, but bring people to Christ. You could make the argument that that is what the woman in these visions does, but it's a matter of subtlety, which is the devil's territory.
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Offline JR

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2011, 10:44:13 AM »
What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?

Bernadette Soubirous claimed that the apparition told her "I am the Immaculate Conception", on March 25th, 1858. So, no, I wouldn't think the apparitions are of the Theotokos. As Basil confirms with the Fatima apparition, many of the most celebrated Roman Catholic apparitions of the Mother of God are bound up with teachings which are strongly bound up with Roman Catholic teachings that the Orthodox simply don't accept.

Here is an article on the apparitions from an Orthodox point-of-view:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

I haven't read it for a while, but remembered it when I read this thread and specifically Basil's post above. Whilst not an "official" statement from a member of the clergy, I believe (or remember believing :-p) the arguments against such apparitions being genuine appearances of the Mother of God quite compelling.

I looked at your link, it took some reading as quite long, but it was amazing to read, a real eye opener, I really enjoyed it and it makes you look at things in a new light.

thanks for this
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Offline JR

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2011, 10:50:49 AM »
I don't think it was at Lourdes that the apparition instructed the world to pray for the conversion of Russia, I believe that was at Fatima. 

As a cradle Roman/Byzantine Catholic (who is seriously contemplating becoming Eastern Orthodox) I have been surprised that many think the instruction to pray for the conversion of Russia is about the Orthodox Christians.  I have always read and been taught that this was a prophesy of the start of Communism  in Russia and and that the error of Marxism/Communism would be spread throughout the world.    Fatima happened just before World War I and the Bolshevik Revolution.   The Bolsheviks (and Mensheviks) targeted the Christians and everywhere they set up their style of government, they have persecuted and martyred Christians (Orthodox, Catholic, Evangelical).   In every Catholic circles I have been, this was the understanding of that prophesy.  Noone ever mentioned Russian Orthodoxy.

I am interested in hearing what the Orthodox readers think about these apparitions.  I was drawn to them for a while but somehow they didn't really connect with me.  I guess one reason is the underlying theme of an angry father who is going to strike you with anger, if not for the pleading mother who is trying to intercede.  As someone who grew up in an alcoholic family, this just is not where I want my mind to be.  I already lived that and I think this is why I have had trouble approaching God as a "Loving Father".    As I am getting my mind around Orthodoxy, I feel happier and I feel like I can trust God and approach Him. 

I know where you are coming from, but as a catholic I have always had doubts on these things and others like the Papal infallibility.

The more I learn about Orthodoxy the more I am drawn to it.

God bless you on your conversion to Orthodoxy.
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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2011, 11:38:53 AM »
In the Fatima Apparition, the Theotokos, if it was her, asked the Roman pope and bishops to consacrate Russia to her immaculate heart to prevent it from spreading its errors to the world. Most Romans believe it was prophecy about the Communist Revolution and that, had the consacration happened, the revolution would have been prevented and, if it had happened after the revolution, the regime would have fallen much earlier. Some Romans, on the other hand, put "Orthodoxy" among the "errors of Russia" that can be spread if the consacration does not happen.

There is a controversy also, because pope Pio XII on October 31st, 1942, consacrated the whole world and all humanity to the Imaculate Heart. Some people believe that this consacration, because it obviously include Russia, attends the request. Others think it does not because it was not specific for Russia. It is also included in the request for the consacration that, should it happen, Russia would convert to Roman Catholicism and peace would reign in the world.

John Paull II made a second consacration in 84 thtat did not mention Russia by name but he said it was intended for her, and that it had been accepted in Heaven as such.

There are many odd things about the recent Roman apparitions of Mary. Some mariologists point that these differences signify that we are entering a "Marian Age"
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Offline JR

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2011, 11:49:57 AM »
In the Fatima Apparition, the Theotokos, if it was her, asked the Roman pope and bishops to consacrate Russia to her immaculate heart to prevent it from spreading its errors to the world. Most Romans believe it was prophecy about the Communist Revolution and that, had the consacration happened, the revolution would have been prevented and, if it had happened after the revolution, the regime would have fallen much earlier. Some Romans, on the other hand, put "Orthodoxy" among the "errors of Russia" that can be spread if the consacration does not happen.

There is a controversy also, because pope Pio XII on October 31st, 1942, consacrated the whole world and all humanity to the Imaculate Heart. Some people believe that this consacration, because it obviously include Russia, attends the request. Others think it does not because it was not specific for Russia. It is also included in the request for the consacration that, should it happen, Russia would convert to Roman Catholicism and peace would reign in the world.

John Paull II made a second consacration in 84 thtat did not mention Russia by name but he said it was intended for her, and that it had been accepted in Heaven as such.

There are many odd things about the recent Roman apparitions of Mary. Some mariologists point that these differences signify that we are entering a "Marian Age"


From what I can understand, The Roman Catholic Church are using the apparitions and the Marian dogma for political gain.

If I am wrong in what I think then please correct me.
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Offline Adela

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2011, 01:06:08 PM »


I know where you are coming from, but as a catholic I have always had doubts on these things and others like the Papal infallibility.

The more I learn about Orthodoxy the more I am drawn to it.

God bless you on your conversion to Orthodoxy.

And God bless you as well....  :)

Roman Catholics are not bound to believe in any of these apparitions since they are considered "private revelation".   But, they are such a large part of Roman Catholic culture.

For some time I had heard a lot about Garabandal on EWTN.  There is something in that apparition that talks about some sign that is supposed to happen in the future in some grove of trees.  It made me think, why would God want us to wait for some sign in a grove of trees? Didn't we already have Jesus and shouldn't that be enough?  And wouldn't the devil want to trick us to get our focus off of Jesus? 

One of these apparitions had visionaries who said they were told by Mary that they would become nuns.  But, when the visionaries grew older Mary told them that they could marry and one of them married an American.    It's stuff like this that give me concern.   Why switch the story later?


I grew up with my grandparents always wearing the brown scapular, and watching the old movie about Fatima.  A street where my baba lived was named Fatima Street, actually.    So it was a bit hard for me to move away from believing in these apparitions.   But, I feel I need to get back to the basics and seek out the quiet peacefulness of Jesus and not get wrapped up in apparitions.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2011, 05:53:01 PM »
I think we had a prior topic about this that got so convoluted, for my mind anyway, that I stopped keeping up with it.  Does anyone know of anything rationally and concisely stated by a bishop or priest that summarizes an Orthodox evaluation about Fatima?  I've always found it strange (Is that he word I want?) that the Theotokos would ask that Russia be consecrated to her honor (or something like that) when at the time, Orthodoxy was the state religion of the Russian Empire.
My even bigger problem with Fatima is that the apparition apparently gave a false prophecy, predicting the end of World War I and being off by like 6 months.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline Volnutt

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2011, 05:57:39 PM »
As someone who grew up in an alcoholic family, this just is not where I want my mind to be.  I already lived that and I think this is why I have had trouble approaching God as a "Loving Father".    As I am getting my mind around Orthodoxy, I feel happier and I feel like I can trust God and approach Him. 
I just want to say, as someone who also has issues with God as Father (though for different reasons), I'm so happy to hear you're finding peace on this  :).
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline JR

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2011, 04:29:32 AM »
As someone who grew up in an alcoholic family, this just is not where I want my mind to be.  I already lived that and I think this is why I have had trouble approaching God as a "Loving Father".    As I am getting my mind around Orthodoxy, I feel happier and I feel like I can trust God and approach Him. 
I just want to say, as someone who also has issues with God as Father (though for different reasons), I'm so happy to hear you're finding peace on this  :).

Hi volnutt

That is what this site is for, to help each other, to learn from each other, to encourage each other, and to be able to ask the our brothers in Christ questions about there faith to help us on our journey in to orthodoxy.

God Bless
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2011, 05:50:44 AM »
Yep, and it's a good one for it  :).
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline MichaelArchangelos

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Re: What is the Orthodox take on apparitions like lourdes?
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2011, 11:47:42 PM »
One of the predictions at Fatima was that if people do not stop offending God, then a worse war than WWI would break out in the reign of Pope Pius XI. However, the generally accepted date for the start of World War II is September 1, 1939, which was in the reign of Pope Pius XII. Pope Pius XI died on the 10th of February 1939.