Author Topic: Psalter of the Mother of God  (Read 991 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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Psalter of the Mother of God
« on: May 24, 2016, 10:47:20 AM »
I'm wondering if anyone here has any knowledge about the provenance/ use of the "Psalter of the Mother of God." I have seen it in a number of Slavic Orthodox sites. It is printed in full at this blog: http://mojepravoslavlje.blogspot.com/2012/01/blog-post_8469.html

The post says it was published in Moscow 1881, though I'm not sure if that indicates when it was first written or just when this particular edition was published. It doesn't look like anyone has published it in English. I see a Ukrainian edition is available at the UOC of USA online store.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2016, 12:46:48 PM »
What's special about this Psalter?
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2016, 12:50:48 PM »
From what I can see, it is essentially 150 prayers to the Mother of God, loosely based on the psalms.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2016, 12:52:24 PM »
From what I can see, it is essentially 150 prayers to the Mother of God, loosely based on the psalms.
Awesome! I hope they exist in English. BTW, the link you posted is in Serbian, not Church Slavonic, right? Just out of curiosity, I don't know either.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 12:57:07 PM by RaphaCam »
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese). Last article: Como posso lidar com minha condição pecadora?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2016, 01:03:37 PM »
When I did Google translate it told me it was Serbian but I'll let Dominika or someone else confirm that.

I did see (after posting) that there are two older threads about this book, but no one seemed to know anything about it there either. Augustin says he has a Romanian version. I wonder what language it was originally composed in.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2016, 01:42:25 PM »
I wonder if it's a translation of the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Roman Catholic Saint Bonaventure that was written in the mid-13th century?
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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2016, 01:43:10 PM »
I would love to get a translation of this book, so if it is in English, please let me know.  If its not, perhaps someone here speaks enough of the right language to translate it?

What we could do of its in Serbiam is run it through Google Translate, and then clean it up and apply a proper poetic style, and then Dominka could assist us where the translation got it horribly wrong.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2016, 01:43:33 PM »
I wonder if it's a translation of the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Roman Catholic Saint Bonaventure that was written in the mid-13th century?

Does an English translation exist of that?
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2016, 01:51:14 PM »
I wonder if it's a translation of the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Roman Catholic Saint Bonaventure that was written in the mid-13th century?

Does an English translation exist of that?

Here it is: https://www.ewtn.com/library/SOURCES/PSALTER.TXT

Comparing the two texts, they seem substantially similar. Very interesting.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Schultz

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2016, 01:52:30 PM »
I wonder if it's a translation of the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Roman Catholic Saint Bonaventure that was written in the mid-13th century?

Does an English translation exist of that?

Oh yes, and Catholic book stores usually have one of the published editions.  It's usually bound in blue.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2016, 01:52:48 PM »
I wonder if it's a translation of the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Roman Catholic Saint Bonaventure that was written in the mid-13th century?

Does an English translation exist of that?
It does! It seems to be a translation indeed. At least putting Psalm 1 in Google Translate got a very similar outcome. What a great find!
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese). Last article: Como posso lidar com minha condição pecadora?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2016, 02:03:45 PM »
And now we know why English Orthodox publishers won't touch this one with a ten-foot pole.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2016, 02:11:14 PM »
Who did the translation and/or editing into Orthodox use? Has it been used by Saints?
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2016, 02:33:02 PM »
Who did the translation and/or editing into Orthodox use? Has it been used by Saints?

Looking at the blog post in my OP, I noticed at the bottom it says it was translated into Serbian by the monks of Hilandar monastery, with the blessing of Bishop Vasilije of Srem. So it was published in 1881 by Russian Athonites and translated recently by Serbian Athonites. And there is a Ukrainian edition available here: http://www.uocofusa.org/service_books.html
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2016, 02:57:38 PM »
And now I've looked at the UOC site in more detail and it attributes to book to Saint Dimitri of Rostov, which makes sense since he had a lot of Western devotions.
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But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2016, 03:17:11 PM »
I'll try to get my priest's blessing to see if I can translate it to Portuguese. I'm working on another religious translation already but the resources I need to go on won't arrive in less than a month.
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese). Last article: Como posso lidar com minha condição pecadora?

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2016, 03:21:08 PM »
You know, on actually reading those Psalms, I find myself not liking them; Injust vigorously defended the Orthodox hymn Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded in another thread, but these Roman Catholic devotions strike me as going too far.  Specifically, I feel like duplicating the form of each individual Psalm, the way it was done, without clarifying the specific nature of the Theotokos and why she and other saints are able to intercede for us, comes across as Mariolatry.   I really do not like to read prayers customarily addressed to God rewritten to address the Theotokos; it comes across as neo-Collyridianism, and the Roman Catholic church does have an element that tends to cross far beyond the pale of hyperdoulia and into the unacceptable realm of latria in regards to the Virgin Mary, for example, the Ida Peerdeman / Fifth Dogma set who want her declared co-redemptrix, or the Medjugorje crowd.  St. Mary is not a part of the Godhead; she is clearly deified through theosis like everyone who is saved, and is the most deified of the church triumphant, but she would not want, and is not entitled, to worship.  Only the Holy Trinity is deserving of latria; the worship of anything else is idolatry or polytheism.

So that was a huge disappointment for me, because I believe that one could compose a set of Marian devotiona that correspond to the Psalms, but the specific way this Roman Catholic work was written just seems very wrong to me.   
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 03:22:38 PM by wgw »
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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2016, 03:26:16 PM »
You know, on actually reading those Psalms, I find myself not liking them; Injust vigorously defended the Orthodox hymn Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded in another thread, but these Roman Catholic devotions strike me as going too far.  Specifically, I feel like duplicating the form of each individual Psalm, the way it was done, without clarifying the specific nature of the Theotokos and why she and other saints are able to intercede for us, comes across as Mariolatry.   I really do not like to read prayers customarily addressed to God rewritten to address the Theotokos; it comes across as neo-Collyridianism, and the Roman Catholic church does have an element that tends to cross far beyond the pale of hyperdoulia and into the unacceptable realm of latria in regards to the Virgin Mary, for example, the Ida Peerdeman / Fifth Dogma set who want her declared co-redemptrix, or the Medjugorje crowd.  St. Mary is not a part of the Godhead; she is clearly deified through theosis like everyone who is saved, and is the most deified of the church triumphant, but she would not want, and is not entitled, to worship.  Only the Holy Trinity is deserving of latria; the worship of anything else is idolatry or polytheism.

So that was a huge disappointment for me, because I believe that one could compose a set of Marian devotiona that correspond to the Psalms, but the specific way this Roman Catholic work was written just seems very wrong to me.

You could have simply said, "I'm not a fan of these prayers because they seem to render excessive honor to Mary." You didn't have to work in all the tangential nonsense about Medjugorje, neo-Collyridianism, etc. This is an example of why your posting is extremely tedious to read through. Take this is an object lesson and improve your behavior in the future.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2016, 03:35:58 PM »
You know, on actually reading those Psalms, I find myself not liking them; Injust vigorously defended the Orthodox hymn Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded in another thread, but these Roman Catholic devotions strike me as going too far.  Specifically, I feel like duplicating the form of each individual Psalm, the way it was done, without clarifying the specific nature of the Theotokos and why she and other saints are able to intercede for us, comes across as Mariolatry.   I really do not like to read prayers customarily addressed to God rewritten to address the Theotokos; it comes across as neo-Collyridianism, and the Roman Catholic church does have an element that tends to cross far beyond the pale of hyperdoulia and into the unacceptable realm of latria in regards to the Virgin Mary, for example, the Ida Peerdeman / Fifth Dogma set who want her declared co-redemptrix, or the Medjugorje crowd.  St. Mary is not a part of the Godhead; she is clearly deified through theosis like everyone who is saved, and is the most deified of the church triumphant, but she would not want, and is not entitled, to worship.  Only the Holy Trinity is deserving of latria; the worship of anything else is idolatry or polytheism.

So that was a huge disappointment for me, because I believe that one could compose a set of Marian devotiona that correspond to the Psalms, but the specific way this Roman Catholic work was written just seems very wrong to me.
You may be right, I like this texts but I'll take them to my priest before even starting to pray them privately.
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese). Last article: Como posso lidar com minha condição pecadora?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2016, 03:40:11 PM »
Another book I'd love to see in English is Saint Nektarios' Theotokarion (whence "Agne Parthene" is taken).
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 03:40:30 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2016, 03:43:15 PM »
Another book I'd love to see in English is Saint Nektarios' Theotokarion (whence "Agne Parthene" is taken).

Only last week did I express this same wish to another OCNetter.
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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2016, 11:57:43 PM »
A cousin gave me a Romanian edition long time ago but I remember that the orthodox publisher acknoledged the psalters Latin origins. I remember them  attributing
its origins to the premonstrantesian order.
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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2016, 03:17:23 AM »
premonstrantesian

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2016, 08:42:30 AM »
Another book I'd love to see in English is Saint Nektarios' Theotokarion (whence "Agne Parthene" is taken).

Only last week did I express this same wish to another OCNetter.

Now that would surely be good and less likely to push the boundaries of hyperdoulia and encroach upon latria.  Agni Parthia is such a beautiful hymn, even in English. 
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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2016, 08:52:34 AM »
Another book I'd love to see in English is Saint Nektarios' Theotokarion (whence "Agne Parthene" is taken).

I've never read it in Greek either. Is it good?

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Re: Psalter of the Mother of God
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2016, 12:37:10 PM »
Bonaventure, the Seraphic Doctor, a sublime and beautiful man. His The Soul's Journey into God is a look at science and philosophy from the perspective of theosis and in mystical stillness of mind. I think he had much in common with Orthodoxy.
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