Author Topic: Romanian Liturgy  (Read 1106 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline iustinos

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 57
  • OC.net
Romanian Liturgy
« on: August 09, 2011, 12:16:45 AM »
I'm hoping someone can help me out here. I have to chant Divine Liturgy Wednesday morning at a Romanian parish I've never attended--thankfully there will only be a few other close friends there. I've never been to Liturgy at a Romanian parish before. I will only have a few minutes with the priest before Liturgy so I wanted to find out before I get there.

1. Do Romanians follow the Greek or Russian practice re the Antiphons vs. Typica?

2. Do Romanians sing "Let our mouths be filled..." after Communion?

3. Do Romanians read more than one Epistle (Russian/Monastic practice)?

Forgive me if this is covered somewhere--I did a search and couldn't find it.

Thank you!

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re: Romanian Liturgy
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2011, 01:39:25 AM »
I'm hoping someone can help me out here. I have to chant Divine Liturgy Wednesday morning at a Romanian parish I've never attended--thankfully there will only be a few other close friends there. I've never been to Liturgy at a Romanian parish before. I will only have a few minutes with the priest before Liturgy so I wanted to find out before I get there.

1. Do Romanians follow the Greek or Russian practice re the Antiphons vs. Typica?

2. Do Romanians sing "Let our mouths be filled..." after Communion?

3. Do Romanians read more than one Epistle (Russian/Monastic practice)?

Forgive me if this is covered somewhere--I did a search and couldn't find it.

Thank you!

It depends on the Romanian parish. A Romanian once compared the Romanians to the Antiochians, they mainly follow the Greek practice but sometimes something Russian slips in. All of these questions are ones that only the priest will be answer for sure.

My best guess is 1. Antiphons 2. yes 3. No
Joseph

Offline mike

  • Filthy Chalcedonian Liar
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 23,739
  • Pray for Christians in Radom!
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: Romanian Liturgy
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2011, 02:19:15 AM »
3. Do Romanians read more than one Epistle (Russian/Monastic practice)?

Do you meant reading second perycope on feasts dedicated to that feast.?
Pray for orthonorm (Jason)

Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,739
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Romanian Liturgy
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2011, 07:43:21 AM »
I'm hoping someone can help me out here. I have to chant Divine Liturgy Wednesday morning at a Romanian parish I've never attended--thankfully there will only be a few other close friends there. I've never been to Liturgy at a Romanian parish before. I will only have a few minutes with the priest before Liturgy so I wanted to find out before I get there.

1. Do Romanians follow the Greek or Russian practice re the Antiphons vs. Typica?

2. Do Romanians sing "Let our mouths be filled..." after Communion?

3. Do Romanians read more than one Epistle (Russian/Monastic practice)?

Forgive me if this is covered somewhere--I did a search and couldn't find it.

Thank you!

It depends on the Romanian parish. A Romanian once compared the Romanians to the Antiochians, they mainly follow the Greek practice but sometimes something Russian slips in. All of these questions are ones that only the priest will be answer for sure.

My best guess is 1. Antiphons 2. yes 3. No
]

Just like the Carpatho Russians....Greek influence with a bit of Russian here and there.

Offline ma2000

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 287
  • Saint Anthony The Great
Re: Romanian Liturgy
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2011, 08:24:44 AM »
You'd better ask the priest, but from what it is done in the parishes in Romania:
1) Antiphons (although sometimes Typica)
2) It is usually read
3) Usually yes (if you mean what Michał said) - depends on the parish
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 08:26:18 AM by ma2000 »
Asemănându-te obiceiurilor râvnitorului Ilie şi urmând Botezătorului pe drepte cărări, Părinte Antonie, te-ai făcut locuitor pustiului şi ai întărit lumea cu rugăciunile tale. Pentru aceasta, roagă-te lui Hristos Dumnezeu, să mântuiască sufletele noastre.

Offline Iconodule

  • Professor of Cryptopatristics at Miskatonic University
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,071
  • Monsters from the Id
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Romanian Liturgy
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2016, 09:54:14 AM »
I was looking at an online text of a Romanian liturgy and the antiphons were like this- 1st antiphon: a line from Psalm 102; 2nd antiphon: Only Begotten Son; 3rd antiphon: beatitudes.

I have to say this is different from what I've seen anywhere else. I've always seen Only Begotten Son sung after the 2nd antiphon but not be the 2nd antiphon itself. Is this typical of Romanian practice? Where can this practice be traced to?

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Moderator, Vamratian Secret Police
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,466
  • DATTA PHUGE - FORTY DAYS OF MOURNING
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Romanian Liturgy
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2016, 10:28:20 AM »
I was looking at an online text of a Romanian liturgy and the antiphons were like this- 1st antiphon: a line from Psalm 102; 2nd antiphon: Only Begotten Son; 3rd antiphon: beatitudes.

I have to say this is different from what I've seen anywhere else. I've always seen Only Begotten Son sung after the 2nd antiphon but not be the 2nd antiphon itself. Is this typical of Romanian practice? Where can this practice be traced to?

Funny you should ask.  When searching for something else a few days ago, I came across this:

Quote
The second consideration, that of practicality, is not so much a sin against Tradition as it is a betrayal of all that the Orthodox Church, especially the Church under Communist domination just ended, endured. I, as, I'm sure, many of you, at least those who read books, have read many books, themes, articles, etc., about the conditions of religious life in Communist-dominated countries. In discussing the countries where Orthodoxy was a significant element in Christian life, the commentators would invariably point out how difficult it was to maintain a ìbare-bonesî existence for the Church, since the Orthodox Church required so much: a building, incense and iconostasis, candles, icon-stands and candlesticks, "full vestments", chalices, patens, spears, star-covers, hand-crosses, separately bound Gospels, trained singers and readers and time, and so on. A Roman Catholic "Low" mass could be celebrated in a closet. A Protestant worship service could be held in a restaurant's banquet room or in a field, with no outward indication that any church activity was going on. All one needed was someone (anyone) to preach and someone to listen. The Orthodox Churches were fully aware of this handicap. Was it heard anywhere that any of the Orthodox, hierarchy, priests, deacons, monastics, laity, ever put forward a proposition like, "Well, Father, why not serve in a business suit?" In fact, the Orthodox went in the opposite direction. If anything, the Faithful insisted that the services would be longer and fuller than they had been, and that when they concluded the clergy would be importuned to add more services. We here in America are familiar with the kind of Liturgies that missionaries of an earlier time brought to these shores: The Divine Liturgy began with an extremely abbreviated typical psalm; the second typical psalm was completely omitted and only the Troparion: Only begotten Son was sung; the Beatitudes were not only not sung with their stanzas, they were sometimes abbreviated to only four. The verses for the Alleluias were forgotten and the solemn Alleluia itself sometimes was only said quickly three times by the reader. And so forth. It was under the extreme conditions of persecution and repression, exile and emigration as well, that this awful "living Church" trend vanished from the scene. Under conditions of persecution and a repression that exceeded in horror and strength that of the days when Divine Liturgies were celebrated at night for fear of the Romans, the Orthodox once again returned to a fuller liturgical expression. Are we now doomed to repeat history? Are we, living in luxury and comfort unimaginable to the Orthodox of any other time in history, finding that the "requirements" of a "monastic and arch-Orthodox" Typikon are too difficult for the conditions of modern life?

http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/tikhon.lit3.html

It sounds like the Romanian practice you describe is an earlier variant.  If I'm understanding Bp Tikhon correctly, it dates to at least the 18th-19th century.   

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 40,260
Re: Romanian Liturgy
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2016, 10:34:34 AM »
I was looking at an online text of a Romanian liturgy and the antiphons were like this- 1st antiphon: a line from Psalm 102; 2nd antiphon: Only Begotten Son; 3rd antiphon: beatitudes.

I have to say this is different from what I've seen anywhere else. I've always seen Only Begotten Son sung after the 2nd antiphon but not be the 2nd antiphon itself. Is this typical of Romanian practice? Where can this practice be traced to?
The OCA parishes I went to in Chicago that was the normal DL antipha
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Iconodule

  • Professor of Cryptopatristics at Miskatonic University
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,071
  • Monsters from the Id
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Romanian Liturgy
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2016, 10:35:52 AM »
Hm, okay. So was it actually introduced by Russians missionaries?

Another question: I realize it took a while for the Romanian church to be unified from different jurisdictions, so it might not be possible to generalize, but did the Romanian church get its liturgy from the Mogila recension, the Greeks, or elsewhere? 

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 40,260
Re: Romanian Liturgy
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2016, 12:06:27 PM »
Hm, okay. So was it actually introduced by Russians missionaries?

Another question: I realize it took a while for the Romanian church to be unified from different jurisdictions, so it might not be possible to generalize, but did the Romanian church get its liturgy from the Mogila recension, the Greeks, or elsewhere?
pre-Mogila, but then the Greek superimposed, with the Vatican's edition in between.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,739
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Romanian Liturgy
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2016, 04:14:34 PM »
I was looking at an online text of a Romanian liturgy and the antiphons were like this- 1st antiphon: a line from Psalm 102; 2nd antiphon: Only Begotten Son; 3rd antiphon: beatitudes.

I have to say this is different from what I've seen anywhere else. I've always seen Only Begotten Son sung after the 2nd antiphon but not be the 2nd antiphon itself. Is this typical of Romanian practice? Where can this practice be traced to?
The OCA parishes I went to in Chicago that was the normal DL antipha

Much of the OCA in the Midwest retained earlier Carpatho-Russian practice...

Offline Iconodule

  • Professor of Cryptopatristics at Miskatonic University
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,071
  • Monsters from the Id
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Romanian Liturgy
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2016, 04:15:42 PM »
Are there many C-R parishes which sing Only Begotten Son as the 2nd antiphon?