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Offline AZCatholic

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Estonian Orthodox
« on: August 07, 2011, 11:45:41 PM »
What is the diffrence between the Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church and the Estonian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate? Can a member of one Church participate in the Liturgy of the other?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 11:48:49 PM by AZCatholic »

Offline John of the North

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2011, 11:57:13 PM »
What is the diffrence between the Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church and the Estonian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate? Can a member of one Church participate in the Liturgy of the other?

One is under the Ecumenical Patriarch and the other is under the Moscow Patriarch. They are in communion with one another and "World Orthodoxy" but I would speculate that the groups keep to themselves, because this is one of those battlegrounds between the EP and the MP--the group under the EP are there specifically because they don't want to be under the MP. I would also imagine that the MP in Estonia uses Church Slavonic as a liturgical language while the EP uses Estonian, but I am not sure on that point.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2011, 11:58:13 PM »
This is why we all need to come under the Pope of Rome so he can sort everything out for us.
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2011, 12:04:49 AM »
This is why we all need to come under the Pope of Rome so he can sort everything out for us.

No, no. We all need to become our own popes so we can do what we want and never have another disagreement--ever! Divine Liturgy in Esperanto here I come...
“Find the door of your heart, and you will discover it is the door to the kingdom of God.” - St. John Chrysostom

Offline AZCatholic

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2011, 12:08:27 AM »
What is the difference between the Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church and the Estonian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate? Can a member of one Church participate in the Liturgy of the other?

One is under the Ecumenical Patriarch and the other is under the Moscow Patriarch. They are in communion with one another and "World Orthodoxy" but I would speculate that the groups keep to themselves, because this is one of those battlegrounds between the EP and the MP--the group under the EP are there specifically because they don't want to be under the MP. I would also imagine that the MP in Estonia uses Church Slavonic as a liturgical language while the EP uses Estonian, but I am not sure on that point.

Does it really matter whose in charge? Does the EP treat them differently then the MP and vice versa?

Offline AZCatholic

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2011, 12:12:38 AM »
This is why we all need to come under the Pope of Rome so he can sort everything out for us.
I doubt it . ;) Unfortunately, he hasn't been successful with the SSPX and getting them back.

Offline John of the North

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2011, 12:32:28 AM »
What is the difference between the Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church and the Estonian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate? Can a member of one Church participate in the Liturgy of the other?

One is under the Ecumenical Patriarch and the other is under the Moscow Patriarch. They are in communion with one another and "World Orthodoxy" but I would speculate that the groups keep to themselves, because this is one of those battlegrounds between the EP and the MP--the group under the EP are there specifically because they don't want to be under the MP. I would also imagine that the MP in Estonia uses Church Slavonic as a liturgical language while the EP uses Estonian, but I am not sure on that point.

Does it really matter whose in charge? Does the EP treat them differently then the MP and vice versa?

I can't speak to the exact Estonian situation, so I can only offer my own commentary.

1. No it doesn't really matter and it really shouldn't. The Church is the Church.
2. I would assume their reasoning is much like that of the Ukrainians. There is probably a nationalistic undercurrent where they want services in their own language and not Church Slavonic, they want a church administration separate from Russia and so on. They feel this can best be done by being under the EP. Of course, historically the Estonian Church first became independent of the Russian Church in 1920 and received canonical recognition from the EP in 1923.

In other words, this is a division that has been around for awhile. The Estonian Church under Moscow is dominated by ethnic Russians; the Estonian-EP is predominantly Estonian. It makes no real sense and is only one more division--but that's what us Orthodox do.

Many who dream of Orthodox unification on this continent will accept nothing less than full autocephaly. Then there is me, who is adamant that a unified national church in my country should never be placed under the church south of the border. It's a totally irrational nationalistic divide--but it is what it is.
“Find the door of your heart, and you will discover it is the door to the kingdom of God.” - St. John Chrysostom

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2011, 04:10:45 AM »
Its not really irrational for Estonians to want liturgy in Estonian, most modern Russians reportedly don't even understand their Church Slavonic liturgy, and all Slavic languages are as different from Estonian as Chinese is from English. It might as well be in Klingon.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2011, 04:51:27 AM »
It seems to me that the situation in Estonia has calmed down.

Actually, if one looks at the website of the EOC-MP, one can see that the site is in three languages: Estonian, Russian and English, and they they have several priests with Estonian-sounding names. http://www.orthodox.ee

On the website of the EOAC (Constantinople), there is not so much Russian content, but they also have some priests with Russian-sounding names. http://www.orthodoxa.org/

Offline Alpo

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2011, 06:48:46 AM »
As the EP's Estonian church has recently switched from Gregorian calendar to New Calendar in order to celebrate common Pascha with Russians maybe there's hope of reconciliation. There are more Russian EOs than Estonian EOs in Estonia and since Estonia has traditionally been MP's territory it would be logical that EP's parishes would be transferred to Moscow but maybe Estonians could get an Estonian vicar bishop and Estonian services in order to maintain peace in the unified church.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 06:52:36 AM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2011, 08:03:05 AM »
This is why we all need to come under the Pope of Rome so he can sort everything out for us.
Yeah, like the three (used to be four) patriarchs of Antioch and the two (used to be three) popes-oops! I mean patriarch (since the Vatican's ecclesial community is evidently not big enough for two popes, the bishop of Alexandria in submission to the Vatican can't have the traditional title of the see)-in Alexandria that it has.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2011, 08:12:34 AM »
What is the difference between the Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church and the Estonian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate? Can a member of one Church participate in the Liturgy of the other?

One is under the Ecumenical Patriarch and the other is under the Moscow Patriarch. They are in communion with one another and "World Orthodoxy" but I would speculate that the groups keep to themselves, because this is one of those battlegrounds between the EP and the MP--the group under the EP are there specifically because they don't want to be under the MP. I would also imagine that the MP in Estonia uses Church Slavonic as a liturgical language while the EP uses Estonian, but I am not sure on that point.

Does it really matter whose in charge? Does the EP treat them differently then the MP and vice versa?

I can't speak to the exact Estonian situation, so I can only offer my own commentary.

1. No it doesn't really matter and it really shouldn't. The Church is the Church.
2. I would assume their reasoning is much like that of the Ukrainians. There is probably a nationalistic undercurrent where they want services in their own language and not Church Slavonic, they want a church administration separate from Russia and so on. They feel this can best be done by being under the EP. Of course, historically the Estonian Church first became independent of the Russian Church in 1920 and received canonical recognition from the EP in 1923.

In other words, this is a division that has been around for awhile. The Estonian Church under Moscow is dominated by ethnic Russians; the Estonian-EP is predominantly Estonian. It makes no real sense and is only one more division--but that's what us Orthodox do.

Many who dream of Orthodox unification on this continent will accept nothing less than full autocephaly. Then there is me, who is adamant that a unified national church in my country should never be placed under the church south of the border. It's a totally irrational nationalistic divide--but it is what it is.
You do know that HM's government did so in 1903?
http://books.google.com/books?id=9l4vAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA183&dq=Northwest+Territories+ordinance+Orthodox&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false
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[Assented to June 19, 1903.]

WHEREAS the Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church for North America and tne Aleutian Islands, has petitioned that he, his successors in office having iurisdiction over the said church in Canada, and each of the duly authorised parishes and missions in the Territories be incorporated; and it is expedient to grant the prayer of the said petition;

THEREFORE the Lieutenant Governor by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of the Territories enacts as follows:

1. The Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church for North America and the Aleutian Islands and his successors I"corporatlon in office, having jurisdiction in Canada, is hereby incorporated for the purposes mentioned in this Ordinance, under the name of " The Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church," (hereinafter called the corporation sole) with all powers and privileges contained in paragraph 38 of section 8 of chapter 1 of The Consolidated Ordinances 1898....
8. Instruments executed by the corporation shall be verified by the signature of the priest in charge and trustees constituting the body corporate, and the consent to such dealing by the bishop as aforesaid, shall be verified by his signature, or that of a member of his consistory for that purpose by him in writing appointed.

9. This Ordinance shall be a public ordinance.

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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2011, 08:19:07 AM »
Its not really irrational for Estonians to want liturgy in Estonian, most modern Russians reportedly don't even understand their Church Slavonic liturgy, and all Slavic languages are as different from Estonian as Chinese is from English. It might as well be in Klingon.
When this first flared up, the Phanar told the Estonian bred, born, baptized, consecrated and speaking Patriarch of Moscow Alexei II of blessed memory, that he had to remove his Estonian bred, born, baptized, consecrated, confessing (he had been jailed for religious propaganda under the communists) and speaking Metropolitan of Tallin and All Estonia Kornelius, to make way for the Greek speaking (and apparently Estonian ignorant) Cypriot bishop from Zaire.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline mike

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2011, 08:54:08 AM »
There were fem meetings between the representatives of the MP and the Hierarchs of the EAOC so it looks it's going better there.
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Offline Orest

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2011, 09:27:08 AM »
Its not really irrational for Estonians to want liturgy in Estonian, most modern Russians reportedly don't even understand their Church Slavonic liturgy, and all Slavic languages are as different from Estonian as Chinese is from English. It might as well be in Klingon.
When this first flared up, the Phanar told the Estonian bred, born, baptized, consecrated and speaking Patriarch of Moscow Alexei II of blessed memory, that he had to remove his Estonian bred, born, baptized, consecrated, confessing (he had been jailed for religious propaganda under the communists) and speaking Metropolitan of Tallin and All Estonia Kornelius, to make way for the Greek speaking (and apparently Estonian ignorant) Cypriot bishop from Zaire.

There is a difference between ethnicity and citizenship. Patriarch Alexei may have been born in Estonia before WW2 when Estonia was a free demoncratic independent country, but his ethnicity was Russian and he was a Russian nationalist.  And also the woman he married was an ethnic Russian and her father was a Russian Orthodox priest.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 09:28:12 AM by Orest »

Offline Alpo

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2011, 09:38:01 AM »
Its not really irrational for Estonians to want liturgy in Estonian, most modern Russians reportedly don't even understand their Church Slavonic liturgy, and all Slavic languages are as different from Estonian as Chinese is from English. It might as well be in Klingon.
When this first flared up, the Phanar told the Estonian bred, born, baptized, consecrated and speaking Patriarch of Moscow Alexei II of blessed memory, that he had to remove his Estonian bred, born, baptized, consecrated, confessing (he had been jailed for religious propaganda under the communists) and speaking Metropolitan of Tallin and All Estonia Kornelius, to make way for the Greek speaking (and apparently Estonian ignorant) Cypriot bishop from Zaire.

There is a difference between ethnicity and citizenship. Patriarch Alexei may have been born in Estonia before WW2 when Estonia was a free demoncratic independent country, but his ethnicity was Russian and he was a Russian nationalist.  And also the woman he married was an ethnic Russian and her father was a Russian Orthodox priest.

Indeed. That's the problem with many Estonian Russians. They aren't Russian-speaking Estonians but Russians without any attributions and they don't want to be anything else. When we visited in Tallinn's Russian parishes with my girlfried at spring nobody seemed to understand Estonian when we tried to find a specific icon from every Russian church we encountered. It's hard to imagine that a bred, born and baptized Estonian-speaking Estonian would feel at home in there.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 09:42:07 AM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline John of the North

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2011, 10:36:19 AM »
You do know that HM's government did so in 1903?
http://books.google.com/books?id=9l4vAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA183&dq=Northwest+Territories+ordinance+Orthodox&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

Last time I checked the situation has changed a bit since then. HM's government can change an ordinance just as easily as they can promulgate a new one.
“Find the door of your heart, and you will discover it is the door to the kingdom of God.” - St. John Chrysostom

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2011, 04:50:14 AM »
it would be logical that EP's parishes would be transferred to Moscow
That's not going to happen. Estonians are not interested in any kind of submission to Moscow. It would also make missionary activity among ethnic Estonians (most of them are not orthodox) much harder.
The only option for a unified jurisdiction in Estonia would be autocephaly.

Patriarch Alexei may have been born in Estonia before WW2 when Estonia was a free demoncratic independent country, but his ethnicity was Russian and he was a Russian nationalist. 
He was of Baltic German noble origin.

Offline Basil 320

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2011, 05:50:11 AM »
I think Patriarch Alexeii of Thrice Blessed Memory, was born in Estonia, but his family was essentially German (Ridiger, or something like that was his last name).  Perhaps the family resided in a German region that was part of the Russian Empire prior to the birth of the Patriarch.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 05:52:53 AM by Basil 320 »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2011, 06:08:56 AM »
it would be logical that EP's parishes would be transferred to Moscow
That's not going to happen. Estonians are not interested in any kind of submission to Moscow. It would also make missionary activity among ethnic Estonians (most of them are not orthodox) much harder.

Unfortunately you are probably right. I can understand that though since it's for the same reason Finland was transferred permanently from Moscow to Constantinople.

Quote
The only option for a unified jurisdiction in Estonia would be autocephaly.

I don't think Russians are interested in that option. They probably feel that they have lost their position and homeland when Estonia got her independence. The Moscow Patriarchate is the only thing that is left and I don't think they are ready to abandon that.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 06:09:53 AM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Orest

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2011, 10:41:52 AM »
I think Patriarch Alexeii of Thrice Blessed Memory, was born in Estonia, but his family was essentially German (Ridiger, or something like that was his last name).  Perhaps the family resided in a German region that was part of the Russian Empire prior to the birth of the Patriarch.
There are lots of people who claim to be ethnic Russian with German surnames.  You have a very few "Baltic Germans" who were members of the aristocracy and married into the Russian aristocracy and eventually became Russian by choice.
But most ethnic Russians with german surnames are the offspring of germans who came to the Russian empire centuries ago either as soldiers, engineers who opened up factories and even millers who brought superior technological skills to the Russian Empire.  Some remained ethnic Germans and remained German Lutheran by religion others inter-married with local Russians and became Russian Orthodox.

No one can claim the late patriarch was Estonian by ethnicity or even open to Estonians causes of political indepenedence.
And the Russians who remain in Estonia are the results of post-colonialism like the British who remained in India after indepenedence.
Why don't they just pack up & go home?  Some Russians were born in Estonia after WW2 and the economy is better in Estonia than in Russia.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Estonian Orthodox
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2011, 01:36:25 AM »
And the Russians who remain in Estonia are the results of post-colonialism like the British who remained in India after indepenedence.
Well, the British who remained in India have made their peace with independence and have greatly contributed to independent India, such as Frank Anthony. Russians in Estonia still need to find their place in society.

Quote
The only option for a unified jurisdiction in Estonia would be autocephaly.

I don't think Russians are interested in that option. They probably feel that they have lost their position and homeland when Estonia got her independence. The Moscow Patriarchate is the only thing that is left and I don't think they are ready to abandon that.
It will take time, maybe several generations. Young ethnic Russians in Estonia already don't identify with Russia or the USSR anymore. Either they are finding their place within Estonia, or they move within the European Union. Many have gone to London and Dublin.