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Author Topic: How much will i need to compromise in order to become acceptable?  (Read 1503 times) Average Rating: 0
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GDan
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« on: July 08, 2011, 08:18:37 AM »

To recap, for those who have not read my other posts.

I am atheist and homosexual, i do not want to convert to any faith. I have RC parents who rejected me on the grounds of their religion and would like to be able to find a way to reconcile with them in the near future. I'm looking to find out exactly how many compromises i would need to make for this to be realised.

I have read all of the archived posts i can find that relate to my situation and the concensus seems to be, to choose to live in celibacy for the rest of my life and to be satisfied with close male friendships. Somehow i can't see my father being at peace with a situation where, i remain who i am and keep the friends i have, but that i don't cross the line of being physically 'inappropriate' with another man. I have a suspicion he would require more of me than this.

Those of you who are parents, can you imagine having a son such as myself? What would you require from them in order to maintain a healthy relationship with you? Bearing in mind that you would not have the hope healing in their life which i believe you call, theosis.

Peace and love,
GDan
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2011, 08:59:36 AM »

Some of the greatest advice I have ever received is, "Don't let other people's dysfunction make you dysfunctional."  Your parents' reaction is what it is.  You can respond to that in integrity or you can try to over-steer to please your parents with no guarantee that it will please your parents.  So you are an atheist and homosexual while your parents are Roman Catholic.  That could be a difficult dialogue as long as you work from those terms.  Try to frame a dialogue as three humans.  That is as deep as my advice runs.  Sorry.  I hope that there can be reconciliation for you and your family.
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GDan
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2011, 09:21:08 AM »

I have left the situation alone for nearly three years but i miss them and often think about my mum and how she is coping, we were very close. They are both amazing parents and have been there for me in many ways, though i don't necessarily need them now, i do miss them. I need to know what the terms might be in order to decide if there is any hope in a dialogue at all between us.

It's good advice KBN1, thanks for your reply.
Peace and love,
GDan
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FrChris
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2011, 09:32:14 AM »

I have left the situation alone for nearly three years but i miss them and often think about my mum and how she is coping, we were very close. They are both amazing parents and have been there for me in many ways, though i don't necessarily need them now, i do miss them. I need to know what the terms might be in order to decide if there is any hope in a dialogue at all between us.

It's good advice KBN1, thanks for your reply.
Peace and love,
GDan

Love them, and love everyone else. If they have issues, love them still. Sometimes you may have to withdraw from them but do not keep the withdrawal a permanent state, which sounds like you will be getting back involved with them.

Also, look at a mirror and realize that you may also have some things to work on too. With love and humility pick yourself up and start getting the hard work done of working out your salvation through the grace of God.
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2011, 09:47:01 AM »

Quote
With love and humility pick yourself up and start getting the hard work done of working out your salvation through the grace of God.

FrChris,

I do have things i need to work on, this is true, though not in the way you might be thinking. If 'salvation' is the only way what i am looking for can happen, then with a sad and heavy heart i will have to begin my post university life, because even if that were possible for me to change my beliefs about 'God', i could not change how i am, how i feel and everything i identify with, that makes up who i am.

Peace and love,
GDan
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 10:08:10 AM »

Everything about us can change GDan, because we are not yet the person God wills us to be in His love.

My own life is continually a journey of leaving behind who I am and becoming who I am meant to be. Not in an external manner of pleasing others, but of truly becoming myself.

But we start where we are, and have to want to become the person God made us to be. The process is one that lasts a life-time and may not be completed. It is much more to do with who we are with God, and then with ourselves, and then with others, than it is about whether we do this or that, feel like this or that.

The seed buried in the ground cannot imagine what life will be like when it pushes up through the hard soil and into the sunlight. The caterpillar cannot imagine the life it will experience after the seeming death of the chrysalis stage. Even the ugly duckling is surprised when it discovers that it has become a swan. In none of these cases do I think (if we can imagine these illustrations being rational) that the one who enters a form of living death as a buried seed or a chrysalis, or has a sense of being the least and ugliest of all, is able to remove their feelings and their sense of who they are. But the transformation is taking place despite their feelings, and even despite their ugliness.

Such a transformation can begin for us all. There is light and life even if we feel that all is dark and cold and lonely.
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2011, 10:21:12 AM »

Since I don't know your parents, I cannot tell how you should deal with them.  People tend to be complicated.  We all are.

If there is an RC monastery near you, you may find some help there.  By that, I mean that in explaining your situation to them and asking their help, they might intercede with your parents from the religious side of the issue.

Usually, parents react to homosexuality at a number of levels.  There's the embarrassment level amongst friends, then there's the religious one.  There are also levels having to do with grandchildren, or imagining what things are going on in private, etc.

On the whole, I recommend the book by Quentin Crisp, Manners From Heaven.  It is written from the perspective of a very effeminate homosexual and what he discovered as the secret to getting along with people who found his lifestyle objectionable.  I actually recommend it to young people because they get so little training in manners from Baby Boomer parents.

While the book will not entirely cure the situation, it may help you get a perspective on how to treat your family and others so as not to provoke a backlash should thinks start to work out with them.
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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2011, 11:20:49 AM »

I know you say you are atheist, to what degree I do not know.
But the way you feel about God now is not what you will feel in the future.
I know FatherGiryus suggested that you go to a RC Monastery, Which is an excellent idea.
Have a chat with the brothers there about your problems, they are very friendly and can be very helpful and encouraging.
But while you are there try and soak up the atmosphere, and try talking about your beliefs to the Brother, you never now, the seed might start to grow in you.
And changes will start to happen before you realise it.
God works in mysterious ways just don’t lose hope.

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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2011, 11:51:01 AM »

Addendum: after rereading my post, I just want to make it clear that I don't think that 'compromise' should involve any significant level of dishonesty.  Ergo, I do not advocate you lying to your parents about who you are.  But, I would also like to add that it is a common mistake on both sides of the fence to make a homosexual's sexuality a far bigger part of his character than it really is, or at least should be.

Most of us do not live to be 'hetero,' it is simply a part of who we are but far from the defining characteristic.  Those who do generally get the label 'pervert' applied to them.  There are straight and gay perverts. 

I advocate that those who have homosexual tendencies (there appear to be degrees) not allow it to become their defining characteristic, and I do counsel gays to try to not act out on their desires.  It is very difficult, but it can be done with God's help and a lot of struggling.  Christian morality is difficult and we all fail at it.  I think it is be design: so that we turn to our Creator for help.

Funny story: my father was a fireman of the Old School (he came on the job just as they were starting to use breathing apparatuses) who ended up late in life in the administrative side of things.  There was a very effeminate gay clerk, who was exceedingly polite and very quiet about his private life, yet everyone knew.  Around a bunch of firemen, you would think he would be DOA.  Actually, he was quite popular because he was one of the few clerks who would take on the administration when he saw something he thought was wrong.  When my father was illegally terminated, the clerk refused to process the paperwork and blocked its approval until my father was reinstated through an appeal.  After the incident, my father said with no small pride, "That little &%$#@ is the bravest man I know!"  The clerk was known first for his decency and uprightness, rather than his sexual preference.  I think on the Day of Judgment, he will have far less to answer for than I will.


Since I don't know your parents, I cannot tell how you should deal with them.  People tend to be complicated.  We all are.

If there is an RC monastery near you, you may find some help there.  By that, I mean that in explaining your situation to them and asking their help, they might intercede with your parents from the religious side of the issue.

Usually, parents react to homosexuality at a number of levels.  There's the embarrassment level amongst friends, then there's the religious one.  There are also levels having to do with grandchildren, or imagining what things are going on in private, etc.

On the whole, I recommend the book by Quentin Crisp, Manners From Heaven.  It is written from the perspective of a very effeminate homosexual and what he discovered as the secret to getting along with people who found his lifestyle objectionable.  I actually recommend it to young people because they get so little training in manners from Baby Boomer parents.

While the book will not entirely cure the situation, it may help you get a perspective on how to treat your family and others so as not to provoke a backlash should thinks start to work out with them.

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« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2011, 09:48:11 PM »

Quote
With love and humility pick yourself up and start getting the hard work done of working out your salvation through the grace of God.

FrChris,

I do have things i need to work on, this is true, though not in the way you might be thinking. If 'salvation' is the only way what i am looking for can happen, then with a sad and heavy heart i will have to begin my post university life, because even if that were possible for me to change my beliefs about 'God', i could not change how i am, how i feel and everything i identify with, that makes up who i am.

Peace and love,
GDan
Do your sexual preferences really make you who you are? Or are you rather a rich tapestry with many different elements contributing to your unique identity? Does sexual attraction have to be the identifying feature that defines what it means to be you? I suspect that there are a great deal of things about you that many love and appreciate, and the fact that you are gay is just an after thought for those people.
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2011, 08:17:13 AM »

Quote
With love and humility pick yourself up and start getting the hard work done of working out your salvation through the grace of God.

FrChris,

I do have things i need to work on, this is true, though not in the way you might be thinking. If 'salvation' is the only way what i am looking for can happen, then with a sad and heavy heart i will have to begin my post university life, because even if that were possible for me to change my beliefs about 'God', i could not change how i am, how i feel and everything i identify with, that makes up who i am.

Peace and love,
GDan
Do your sexual preferences really make you who you are? Or are you rather a rich tapestry with many different elements contributing to your unique identity? Does sexual attraction have to be the identifying feature that defines what it means to be you? I suspect that there are a great deal of things about you that many love and appreciate, and the fact that you are gay is just an after thought for those people.

Some believe that homosexuality is a merely a sexual preference and others would consider it more a sexual identity, from birth, woven into the very fabric of our being. As for it being an "after thought", i would suggest they didn't know me at all in that case.

Peace and love,
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GDan
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 08:26:55 AM »

Since I don't know your parents, I cannot tell how you should deal with them.  People tend to be complicated.  We all are.

If there is an RC monastery near you, you may find some help there.  By that, I mean that in explaining your situation to them and asking their help, they might intercede with your parents from the religious side of the issue.

Usually, parents react to homosexuality at a number of levels.  There's the embarrassment level amongst friends, then there's the religious one.  There are also levels having to do with grandchildren, or imagining what things are going on in private, etc.

On the whole, I recommend the book by Quentin Crisp, Manners From Heaven.  It is written from the perspective of a very effeminate homosexual and what he discovered as the secret to getting along with people who found his lifestyle objectionable.  I actually recommend it to young people because they get so little training in manners from Baby Boomer parents.

While the book will not entirely cure the situation, it may help you get a perspective on how to treat your family and others so as not to provoke a backlash should thinks start to work out with them.


Thank you for the literature recommendation Father, and the good advice. I have previously thought of approaching my home parish priest but decided against it as i thought if ever my parents needed him, then they would need his support and i wouldn't want them to feel like they had no other resource. I was slightly concerned about his reaction to me when i explained that i didn't want to convert.

I will look for a local monastery near to where my parents live in the hope that they might be willing to offer objective mediation.

Peace and love,
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GDan
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 08:38:28 AM »

Everything about us can change GDan, because we are not yet the person God wills us to be in His love.

My own life is continually a journey of leaving behind who I am and becoming who I am meant to be. Not in an external manner of pleasing others, but of truly becoming myself.

But we start where we are, and have to want to become the person God made us to be. The process is one that lasts a life-time and may not be completed. It is much more to do with who we are with God, and then with ourselves, and then with others, than it is about whether we do this or that, feel like this or that.

The seed buried in the ground cannot imagine what life will be like when it pushes up through the hard soil and into the sunlight. The caterpillar cannot imagine the life it will experience after the seeming death of the chrysalis stage. Even the ugly duckling is surprised when it discovers that it has become a swan. In none of these cases do I think (if we can imagine these illustrations being rational) that the one who enters a form of living death as a buried seed or a chrysalis, or has a sense of being the least and ugliest of all, is able to remove their feelings and their sense of who they are. But the transformation is taking place despite their feelings, and even despite their ugliness.

Such a transformation can begin for us all. There is light and life even if we feel that all is dark and cold and lonely.

Father, do you believe it possible for a fully grown adult to change to the same degree as the illustrations you have given? We are all changing and evolving as a result of our education, circumstances and our new experiences, these all go to shape us and our choices. However, it is clear that there are certain aspects of our identity that remain unchanged throughout our life and the only way to "change" them is, as has already been suggested, self-denial and sacrifice.

Peace and love,
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 08:55:45 AM »

Self-denial and self-sacrifice are central aspects of the Christian life, but we do not believe that these occur by purely human agency, as if we must force ourself to become someone else. That could well be very damaging and not actually achieve anything in relation to the Christian life.

What we do believe is that by engaging with Christian life, which means for us, engaging with God the Holy Spirit, and honestly embracing the Christian spiritual life with its sacrifices and disciplines, we do become the person God wills us to be. This is experienced as a transformation.

Our sexual identity need not change, but the expression and experience of our sexuality does. We discover that we are not our sexuality. But we are not our anger, or our need for food, or any of the appetites and drives which we experience as humans in need of transformation.

There is no a problem with starting from a particular place, as long as the goal is the right one. There is not a problem with struggling with aspects of our humanity for all of our life, as long as we are moving in the right direction and with commitment to the journey. The problems occur when any of these aspects are elevated to some naturally required component of our personhood, to the detriment of our becoming that person in Christ. There is a need to be willing to sacrifice every aspect of our lives to become who we truly are. This is not a negation of self but the means of discovering ourselves. When we say 'It's only natural to ...' then we are usually trying to exempt some fallen aspect of humanity from this transformation.

It is indeed a path of self-sacrifice and self-denial, very painful at times. But it is not the self-creation of a false identity, it is truly the transformation by God of who we are into who we are to become. I have experienced this to some poor extent in my own life, and I see it in the lives of the congregation I am responsible for.
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2011, 08:57:21 AM »

Quote
With love and humility pick yourself up and start getting the hard work done of working out your salvation through the grace of God.

FrChris,

I do have things i need to work on, this is true, though not in the way you might be thinking. If 'salvation' is the only way what i am looking for can happen, then with a sad and heavy heart i will have to begin my post university life, because even if that were possible for me to change my beliefs about 'God', i could not change how i am, how i feel and everything i identify with, that makes up who i am.

Peace and love,
GDan
Do your sexual preferences really make you who you are? Or are you rather a rich tapestry with many different elements contributing to your unique identity? Does sexual attraction have to be the identifying feature that defines what it means to be you? I suspect that there are a great deal of things about you that many love and appreciate, and the fact that you are gay is just an after thought for those people.

Some believe that homosexuality is a merely a sexual preference and others would consider it more a sexual identity, from birth, woven into the very fabric of our being. As for it being an "after thought", i would suggest they didn't know me at all in that case.

Peace and love,

If someone tried to tell me that my sexuality was my identity "woven into the very fabric of my being", I would take great offense at such a crass reduction of my personhood.

I pray your self-concept is not bound up in your sexuality: in my opinion, that is a more deadly poison than any one instance of sexual sin.

PS: Nothing I have said applies to homosexual identity alone.
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2011, 09:06:42 AM »

Quote from: GDan
Some believe that homosexuality is a merely a sexual preference and others would consider it more a sexual identity, from birth, woven into the very fabric of our being. As for it being an "after thought", i would suggest they didn't know me at all in that case.


GDan, please forgive me if I'm any bit uncharitable. I confess this is my belief as well, about it being a preference. I don't think it was a freely-chosen sexual preference, nor something that was biologically fixed. Almost all the men I know who had homosexual tendencies and then became straight said that homosexuality was a result of never psychologically developing a sense of one's own masculinity, and therefore looking for that sense in another person. Biologically, they were men, cleanly entitled to be masculine because God made them male, but for whatever reason they had just never developed this sense of themselves. Almost all of them also said that when they did discover and develop this side of their identity, their homosexual tendencies stopped or greatly declined immediately - they realized they didn't want to be with the confident young guy at the beach, they wanted to become him.
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2011, 01:33:14 AM »

GDan,

Welcome to the forum Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2011, 02:49:01 AM »

Do your sexual preferences really make you who you are? Or are you rather a rich tapestry with many different elements contributing to your unique identity? Does sexual attraction have to be the identifying feature that defines what it means to be you? I suspect that there are a great deal of things about you that many love and appreciate, and the fact that you are gay is just an after thought for those people.

Quite lovely Papist.

The bolded section unfortunately is rare for some. Many reduce gay folks' sexual orientation to the single most important thing about them either to harm or help.

It is unfortunate that more of us do not look at everyone through your nuanced understanding of identity (I work I don't like here) regarding many aspects of ourselves.
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« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2011, 03:30:45 AM »

GDan,

Thank you for your openness. Let me be frank and share my thoughts quickly and suggest perhaps an interesting point of view on "identity" in general.

Many comments in this thread are just silly.

Homosexuality is certainly biologically defined to a degree and environmentally as well, that is even, if we could separate the two.

Sexuality in my life and interactions with folks who are frank about their sexuality show that sexuality is rather fluid and less absolute than many folks would like it to be in our fallen world.

I have many crosses to bear, I am glad homosexual orientation ain't one. It often seems very painful, especially for those surrounded by "Christians".

All of us nowadays in the developed world do mark ourselves heavily by our sexual orientation. It is just more transparent for heterosexual folks than homosexual folks. I lulz at people who think homosexual folks "parade" their sexuality around (when they ain't doing it literally, parading that is), because they don't realize how much people do parade their heterosexuality around through wedding bands, photos, talk about their relationships etc.

In short, homosexual folks have a hard time of it.

We all are sinners. And truly my masturbating really ain't much different than a homosexual act in my way of figuring things. Never seen too many protests against masturbation and how it will cause the fall of civilization.

Lying, lusting (even toward one's married heterosexual parter), greed, impatience, etc. are all sins. And we all fall short.

So I really don't get too excited about gays and lesbians and how they are working out their salvation. It just provocative to the Puritanical side of folks who think sexuality is particularly dangerous, when truly it is greed that we all should be concerned about. It was greed that drove Judas to betray Christ and St. John Chrysostom said (paraphrasing perhaps) all sin begins with the word mine. (Others please correct me if I am wrong on that attribution.)

This brings me to my brief thoughts on identity, which may not be helpful in their brevity or content.

There really ain't no identity as such. We are who we are through the relationships we have with others. It is through communion that we truly become who we are. Our God is such. Three Persons in Eternal relationship with One Another, Their unique Personhood rising out of those relations.

And to parse a verse often quoted but I believe poorly understood.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (or worse: as you love yourself.)

This ain't no self-esteem nonsense, that you have to "love yourself" first before you can love others and only to the extent you love yourself can you love others. That is poison to me.

For me, this verse means that the neighbor, the other, IS myself. To the degree that I love my neighbor (commune with them) is to the degree I become who I truly am. (This would apply to love of God as well.)

We ain't aggregations of qualities . . . well we can measure ourselves in this manner.

But the Gospel says there ain't no me without God and my neighbor. I cannot become a son of God, that is to say human, without first loving God and my neighbor. Without those two things, I am just an aggregate of qualities to be measured and "valued".

For the me the Gospel, or at least part of it, is that I can, to the degree I love God and my neighbor, be free of "identifying" with all the garbage I believe I must cling to to be "me". This is what is means to die with Christ, so that we truly can live.

If I live long enough I'll lose nearly everything the world and I prize about myself. Nothing will remain. And as those qualities diminish and fall away, I will suffer. I will be less "valuable".

But if those things that are held in esteem by the word and myself no longer comprise who I truly am, then when they pass, it doesn't have to be so disorientating.

Love God and love your neighbor and then you will be yourself. And those two acts as I understand it from people who have seemed to live by them grow over time and can be a source of joy and solace as the qualities which we think make us up fall away.

Certainly being homosexual, American, wealthy, etc. inform our lives, but they ain't our lives. Thank God!

In the one or two nanoseconds I've let go of my "identity" and found my being rooted in the Love of God and neighbor, a freedom was found with which nothing can compare.

Being myself is a drag, if only I had the chutzpah to truly want to die to myself every day and seek to only love God and my neighbor . . . then I would be who I truly am.

Till then, I remain your snarky and insufferable anonymous poster.

EDIT: I should probably delete this nonsense.



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« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2011, 03:40:33 AM »

What orthonorm said.
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2011, 04:29:17 AM »

GDan,

Thank you for your openness. Let me be frank and share my thoughts quickly and suggest perhaps an interesting point of view on "identity" in general.

Many comments in this thread are just silly.

Homosexuality is certainly biologically defined to a degree and environmentally as well, that is even, if we could separate the two.

Sexuality in my life and interactions with folks who are frank about their sexuality show that sexuality is rather fluid and less absolute than many folks would like it to be in our fallen world.

I have many crosses to bear, I am glad homosexual orientation ain't one. It often seems very painful, especially for those surrounded by "Christians".

All of us nowadays in the developed world do mark ourselves heavily by our sexual orientation. It is just more transparent for heterosexual folks than homosexual folks. I lulz at people who think homosexual folks "parade" their sexuality around (when they ain't doing it literally, parading that is), because they don't realize how much people do parade their heterosexuality around through wedding bands, photos, talk about their relationships etc.

In short, homosexual folks have a hard time of it.

We all are sinners. And truly my masturbating really ain't much different than a homosexual act in my way of figuring things. Never seen too many protests against masturbation and how it will cause the fall of civilization.

Lying, lusting (even toward one's married heterosexual parter), greed, impatience, etc. are all sins. And we all fall short.

So I really don't get too excited about gays and lesbians and how they are working out their salvation. It just provocative to the Puritanical side of folks who think sexuality is particularly dangerous, when truly it is greed that we all should be concerned about. It was greed that drove Judas to betray Christ and St. John Chrysostom said (paraphrasing perhaps) all sin begins with the word mine. (Others please correct me if I am wrong on that attribution.)

This brings me to my brief thoughts on identity, which may not be helpful in their brevity or content.

There really ain't no identity as such. We are who we are through the relationships we have with others. It is through communion that we truly become who we are. Our God is such. Three Persons in Eternal relationship with One Another, Their unique Personhood rising out of those relations.

And to parse a verse often quoted but I believe poorly understood.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (or worse: as you love yourself.)

This ain't no self-esteem nonsense, that you have to "love yourself" first before you can love others and only to the extent you love yourself can you love others. That is poison to me.

For me, this verse means that the neighbor, the other, IS myself. To the degree that I love my neighbor (commune with them) is to the degree I become who I truly am. (This would apply to love of God as well.)

We ain't aggregations of qualities . . . well we can measure ourselves in this manner.

But the Gospel says there ain't no me without God and my neighbor. I cannot become a son of God, that is to say human, without first loving God and my neighbor. Without those two things, I am just an aggregate of qualities to be measured and "valued".

For the me the Gospel, or at least part of it, is that I can, to the degree I love God and my neighbor, be free of "identifying" with all the garbage I believe I must cling to to be "me". This is what is means to die with Christ, so that we truly can live.

If I live long enough I'll lose nearly everything the world and I prize about myself. Nothing will remain. And as those qualities diminish and fall away, I will suffer. I will be less "valuable".

But if those things that are held in esteem by the word and myself no longer comprise who I truly am, then when they pass, it doesn't have to be so disorientating.

Love God and love your neighbor and then you will be yourself. And those two acts as I understand it from people who have seemed to live by them grow over time and can be a source of joy and solace as the qualities which we think make us up fall away.

Certainly being homosexual, American, wealthy, etc. inform our lives, but they ain't our lives. Thank God!

In the one or two nanoseconds I've let go of my "identity" and found my being rooted in the Love of God and neighbor, a freedom was found with which nothing can compare.

Being myself is a drag, if only I had the chutzpah to truly want to die to myself every day and seek to only love God and my neighbor . . . then I would be who I truly am.

Till then, I remain your snarky and insufferable anonymous poster.

EDIT: I should probably delete this nonsense.

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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2011, 03:46:00 PM »

Quote
With love and humility pick yourself up and start getting the hard work done of working out your salvation through the grace of God.

FrChris,

I do have things i need to work on, this is true, though not in the way you might be thinking. If 'salvation' is the only way what i am looking for can happen, then with a sad and heavy heart i will have to begin my post university life, because even if that were possible for me to change my beliefs about 'God', i could not change how i am, how i feel and everything i identify with, that makes up who i am.

Peace and love,
GDan

I think you'd be surprised how much and how quickly those things can change. I hope you reconcile with your parents and with God. Lord have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2011, 04:52:44 PM »


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I'm glad you quoted it for posterity because I would have karate-chopped orthonorm if he deleted it. Very brutally honest post and I agree with a lot of it. Hope that it does help you out, GDan.
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2011, 08:51:09 PM »

I really hope that what GDan takes/can take from this thread is that Christianity properly-so-called does not subscribe to prevailing cultural notions of sexuality and identity and sexual identity.

I truly believe that unlearning the very presuppositions of worldly thinking is the fundamental first step to grasping Christianity's teachings on all matters. The most poisonous of these presuppositions is the concept of static and fixed sexuality contributing to self-concept/identity. When Christians themselves subscribe to such presuppositions, the result is hatred and denunciation of homosexuals (paradoxically coupled with making all sorts of excuses for masturbation, heterosexual fornication and divorce). Perversely, such attitudes, while championed by the loudest advocates of the authority of the scriptures, are grossly unscriptural.

In another thread, I chastised daedalus for talking to us in the language of the world. While one is hidebound by the language and, indeed, the narrative of the world, one cannot grasp the truth of Christian teaching on any subject, but especially this one where such narrative is so deeply ingrained and seemingly unassailable.

I can't say for certain, GDan, but I think perhaps you and your father are falling into the same trap.

I realise this is all a little bit rarified and abstract, but I think such things necessarily are.
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« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2011, 07:49:09 AM »

Quote from: orthonorm
All of us nowadays in the developed world do mark ourselves heavily by our sexual orientation. It is just more transparent for heterosexual folks than homosexual folks. I lulz at people who think homosexual folks "parade" their sexuality around (when they ain't doing it literally, parading that is), because they don't realize how much people do parade their heterosexuality around through wedding bands, photos, talk about their relationships etc.
Simply because heterosexuality is accepted as normative and any other stands out like Disney in Cornwall.

I really hope that what GDan takes/can take from this thread is that Christianity properly-so-called does not subscribe to prevailing cultural notions of sexuality and identity and sexual identity.

I truly believe that unlearning the very presuppositions of worldly thinking is the fundamental first step to grasping Christianity's teachings on all matters. The most poisonous of these presuppositions is the concept of static and fixed sexuality

Thanks akimori, i appreciate the hypothesis and if i thought for one moment that mental assent to a revised trinitarian understanding of sexuality would make a difference at grass roots level for me, then i would consider investigating it further.

On a practical note, i had an appointment with a priest last week, who agreed to chat through the issues regarding my parents and myself, with a view to possibly making contact with them in the hope of mediation. My initial meeting with the Father went very well, better than i expected i am pleased to report. The next step is his contact with my parents which i think he is going to do via their local priest. It is a first step which i hope will at least let my mum know that i am doing all i can to build a positive bridge of communication between us all.

Peace and love
GDan

« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 07:50:42 AM by GDan » Logged
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« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2011, 11:08:19 PM »

On a practical note, i had an appointment with a priest last week, who agreed to chat through the issues regarding my parents and myself, with a view to possibly making contact with them in the hope of mediation. My initial meeting with the Father went very well, better than i expected i am pleased to report. The next step is his contact with my parents which i think he is going to do via their local priest. It is a first step which i hope will at least let my mum know that i am doing all i can to build a positive bridge of communication between us all.

Peace and love
GDan

Wow.  Good on you.  Here's for hoping...
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