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« on: August 03, 2011, 05:36:43 PM »

I saw some discussion regarding Noah's Ark in the Creation/Evolution thread.

theo says it was just a local flood. But I wonder why was this oral transmission found through so many different cultures of a man in an ark gathering all the animals surviving a great flood? That's not to take away from the theological/spiritual message, which is greater than the fact/fiction of the account, but am curious why we can't accept Noah's Ark as an actual occurrence.
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2011, 08:26:17 PM »

if it was just a local flood Noah could have just moved ... and how did the waters get above the mountains if it was just local - the water would have just spilled over into more area.
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2011, 08:27:53 PM »

But I wonder why was this oral transmission found through so many different cultures of a man in an ark gathering all the animals surviving a great flood?

How many and which cultures?
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2011, 09:08:31 PM »

But I wonder why was this oral transmission found through so many different cultures of a man in an ark gathering all the animals surviving a great flood?

How many and which cultures?


http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2011, 09:17:07 PM »

I always thought it was worldwide.
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2011, 09:18:29 PM »

It was.  Look at the link above your post.   Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2011, 09:40:37 PM »

Fascinating link, Salpy!

I'm not sure what I believe scientifically about the Flood, but there is an interesting theory that associates it (and all the many flood mythologies) with the rapid draining of the prehistoric Lake Agassiz in modern Canada around 8200 BC (the 8.2 kiloyear Event). Apparently it caused the oceans to rise by 1-4m very quickly, and hence would have been a global flood, albeit localized to the coastal areas (where the highest populations tend to live).
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2011, 11:11:56 PM »

But I wonder why was this oral transmission found through so many different cultures of a man in an ark gathering all the animals surviving a great flood?

How many and which cultures?


http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

Without making me pick through them, which ones actually have all the elements that the OP speaks of? I'm aware that many cultures have flood myths. Many cultures where floods happen, anyway Wink But I'm particularly asking about cultures with the "gathering all the animals" into an ark and saving them part of it in their story?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 11:13:41 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2011, 11:20:59 PM »

I'm too lazy to go through all of them.   Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2011, 12:13:27 AM »

But I wonder why was this oral transmission found through so many different cultures of a man in an ark gathering all the animals surviving a great flood?

How many and which cultures?


http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

Without making me pick through them, which ones actually have all the elements that the OP speaks of? I'm aware that many cultures have flood myths. Many cultures where floods happen, anyway Wink But I'm particularly asking about cultures with the "gathering all the animals" into an ark and saving them part of it in their story?

Noah in the Old Testament (obviously)
Gilgamesh in Mesopotamia
Deucalion in Ancient Greece
The Celts had a story involving a ship, but no mention of animals
Dwyfan and Dwyfach in Ancient Wales
Lithuanian mythology
Transylvanian Gypsies
Ancient Sumer had a flood story that looks separate from Gilgamesh
Zoaroastrians had/have a flood myth
Maasai in Africa
Flood myth in Southwest Tanzania
Yenisey-Ostyak people in Siberia had no boat, but people and animals saved by clinging to logs
Kamchadale people in Siberia had a boat but no mention of animals
Altaic people in central Asia
Tuvinian people near Mongolia had a boat story, with no mention of animals
Buryat people in Siberia
Sagaiye people in Siberia
Hindu mythology has a flood myth
Karen people of Burma had a flood myth with a boat but no mention of animals
Maori story had a raft but no animals
New Hebrides
Hawaii had a flood story with a boat, no explicit mention of animals, though it is implied.
Sarcee tribe in Alberta, Canada
Michoacan people of Mexico
Trique people of Mexico

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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2011, 12:19:17 AM »

Below are just a few stories from the above website.  These are just a small sample of the stories, which are from all over the world, and have varied elements.  Some are closer to the Noah story than others.  The website has literally scores of these stories, perhaps hundreds.  These are just a few:

Greece:

Quote
The first race of people was completely destroyed because they were exceedingly wicked. The fountains of the deep opened, the rain fell in torrents, and the rivers and seas rose to cover the earth, killing all of them. Deucalion survived due to his prudence and piety and linked the first and second race of men. Onto a great ark he loaded his wives and children and all animals. The animals came to him, and by God's help, remained friendly for the duration of the flood. The flood waters escaped down a chasm opened in Hierapolis. [Frazer, pp. 153-154]


Transylvanian Gypsy:

Quote
Men once lived forever and knew no troubles. The earth brought forth fine fruits, flesh grew on trees, and milk and wine flowed in many rivers. One day, and old man came to the country and asked for a night's lodging, which a couple gave him in their cottage. When he departed the next day, he said he would return in nine days. He gave his host a small fish in a vessel and said he would reward the host if he did not eat the fish but returned it then. The wife thought the fish must be exceptionally good to eat, but the husband said he had promised the old man to keep it and made the woman swear not to eat it. After two days of thinking about it, though, the wife yielded to temptation and threw the fish on the hot coals. Immediately, she was struck dead by lightning, and it began to rain. The rivers started overflowing the country. On the ninth day, the old man returned and told his host that all living things would be drowned, but since he had kept his oath, he would be saved. The old man told the host to take a wife, gather his kinfolk, and build a boat on which to save them, animals, and seeds of trees and herbs. The man did all this. It rained a year, and the waters covered everything. After a year, the waters sank, and the people and animals disembarked. They now had to labor to gain a living, and sickness and death came also. They multiplied slowly so that many thousands of years passed before people were again as numerous as they were before the flood. [Frazer, pp. 177-178]

Sumerian:

Quote
The gods had decided to destroy mankind. The god Enlil warned the priest-king Ziusudra ("Long of Life") of the coming flood by speaking to a wall while Ziusudra listened at the side. He was instructed to build a great ship and carry beasts and birds upon it. Violent winds came, and a flood of rain covered the earth for seven days and nights. Then Ziusudra opened a window in the large boat, allowing sunlight to enter, and he prostrated himself before the sun-god Utu. After landing, he sacrificed a sheep and an ox and bowed before Anu and Enlil. For protecting the animals and the seed of mankind, he was granted eternal life and taken to the country of Dilmun, where the sun rises. [Hammerly-Dupuy, p. 56; Heidel, pp. 102-106]

Masai (East Africa):

Quote
Tumbainot, a righteous man, had a wife named Naipande and three sons, Oshomo, Bartimaro, and Barmao. When his brother Lengerni died, Tumbainot, according to custom, married the widow Nahaba-logunja, who bore him three more sons, but they argued about her refusal to give him a drink of milk in the evening, and she set up her own homestead. The world was heavily populated in those days, but the people were sinful and not mindful of God. However, they refrained from murder, until at last a man named Nambija hit another named Suage on the head. At this, God resolved to destroy mankind, except Tumbainot found grace in His eyes. God commanded Tumbainot to build an ark of wood and enter it with his two wives, six sons and their wives, and some of animals of every sort. When they were all aboard and provisioned, God caused a great long rain which caused a flood, and all other men and beasts drowned. The ark drifted for a long time, and provisions began to run low. The rain finally stopped, and Tumbainot let loose a dove to ascertain the state of the flood. The dove returned tired, so Tumbainot knew it had found no place to rest. Several days later, he loosed a vulture, but first he attached an arrow to one of its tail feathers so that, if the bird landed, the arrow would hook on something and be lost. The vulture returned that evening without the arrow, so Tumbainot reasoned that it must have landed on carrion, and that the flood was receding. When the water ran away, the ark grounded on the steppe, and its occupants disembarked. Tumbainot saw four rainbows, one in each quarter of the sky, signifying that God's wrath was over. [Frazer, pp. 330-331]



Yenisey-Ostyak (north central Siberia):

Quote
Flood waters rose for seven days. Some people and animals were saved by climbing on floating logs and rafters. A strong north wind blew for seven days and scattered the people, which is why there are now different peoples speaking different languages. [Holmberg, p. 367]



Altaic (central Asia):

Quote
Tengys (Sea) was once lord over the earth. Nama, a good man, lived during his rule with three sons, Sozun-uul, Sar-uul, and Balyks. Ülgen commanded Nama to build an ark (kerep), but Nama's sight was failing, so he left the building to his sons. The ark was built on a mountain, and from it were hung eight 80-fathom cables with which to gauge water depth. Nama entered the ark with his family and the various animals and birds which had been driven there by the rising waters. Seven days later, the cables gave way from the earth, showing that the flood had risen 80 fathoms. Seven days later, Nama told his eldest son to open the window and look around, and the son saw only the summits of mountains. His father ordered him to look again later, and he saw only water and sky. At last the ark stopped in a group of eight mountains. On successive days, Nama released a raven, a crow, and a rook, none of which returned. On the fourth day, he sent out a dove, which returned with a birch twig and told why the other birds hadn't returned; they had found carcasses of a deer, dog, and horse respectively, and had stayed to feed on them. In anger, Nama cursed them to behave thus to the end of the world. When Nama became very old, his wife exhorted him to kill all the men and animals he had saved so that they, transferred to the other world, would be under his power. Nama didn't know what to do. Sozun-uul, who didn't dare to oppose his mother openly, told his father a story about seeing a blue-black cow devouring a human so only the legs were visible. Nama understood the fable and cleft his wife in two with his sword. Finally, Nama went to heaven, taking with him Sozun-uul and changing him into a constellation of five stars. [Holmberg, pp. 364-365]


Lolo (southwestern China):

Quote
In primeval times, men were wicked. The patriarch Tse-gu-dzih sent a messenger down to earth, asking for some flesh and blood from a mortal. Only one man, Du-mu, complied. In wrath, Tse-gu-dzih locked the rain-gates, and the waters mounted to the sky. Du-mu was saved in a log hollowed out of a Pieris tree, together with his four sons and otters, wild ducks, and lampreys. The civilized peoples who can write are descended from the sons; the ignorant races are descendants of wooden figures whom Du-mu constructed after the deluge. [Gaster, pp. 99-100]



Dyak (Borneo)

Quote
When the flood came, a man named Trow made a boat from a large wooden mortar previously used for pounding rice. He took with him his wife, a dog, pig, cat, fowl, and other animals, and rode out the flood. Afterwards, to repeople the earth, Trow fashioned additional wives out of a log, stone, and anything else handy. Soon he had a large family which became the ancestors of the various Dyak tribes. [Gaster, p. 102]

Timagami Ojibway (Canada):

Quote
Nenebuc, son of the Sun and a mortal woman, saw some lions in a great lake. He waited for them to come to shore to sun themselves, disguising himself by wrapping around himself some birch bark from a rotten stump. When the lions came, they were curious about the new stump and sent a snake to check it out. The snake coiled around it and tried to upset it, but Nenebuc stood firm. When the lions themselves approached, Nenebuc wounded the wife of the chief lion with an arrow shot. She was badly hurt but escaped to the cave where she lived. (The cave may still be seen in a bluff west of Smoothwater Lake.) Nenebuc donned the skin of a toad, disguised himself as a medicine-woman, and was admitted to the lioness. He thrust the arrow deeper, killing her. At once, water poured out of the cave, and the lake began to rise. Nenebuc built a raft, which was ready no sooner than the flood reached him. As the raft floated on the flood, Nenebuc took on animals that were swimming in the waters. After a time, Nenebuc tied a willow-root rope to the beaver's tail and bade him dive to find earth below the water, but the beaver returned without finding a bottom. Seven days later, Nenebuc let the muskrat try. The muskrat stayed down a long time and came up dead, but it held a little earth in its claws. Nenebuc dried the grains from which he remade the land, but not entirely, which is why there are swampy areas today. [Frazer, pp. 307-308]



Caddo (Oklahoma, Arkansas):

Quote
A woman gave birth to four monsters. Though advised to kill them, she let them grow. They grew quickly and acted evilly, and before long they were too large and powerful to kill. They kept growing. One night they came together in the camp with their backs together and grew together into one creature, which grew tall enough to touch the sky. Most people took refuge at their base, where they couldn't bend over and reach them; others were caught by the monsters' long arms and eaten. One man who could see the future heard a voice telling him to plant a hollow reed. He did so, and it quickly grew very big. The voice directed the man and his wife to go naked into the reed, taking pairs of good animals, when they see all the birds of the world flying south. The sign came and they entered. Rain came, and waters rose to cover everything but the top of the reed and the heads of the monsters. Turtle destroyed the monsters by digging under them and uprooting them. They broke apart and fell in (and thus formed) the four cardinal directions. The waters subsided, and winds dried the earth. The people and animals emerged onto a barren earth, and the wife wondered how they would live. The man said, "Go to sleep." Four times they slept, and each time they woke there was more growth around them. After the fourth night, they awoke in a grass hut, and there was a stalk of corn outside. The voice told them corn was to be their holy food. If they plant corn and something else comes up, then the world will end. The voice didn't return after that. [Erdoes & Ortiz, p. 120-122]


Tarascan (northern Michoacan, Mexico):

Quote
God ordered a man to build a large house and to put animals and food in it. When he had finished, it began to rain and continued raining for six months. The house floated on the flood, and all who had helped build it were saved in it. When the flood started going down, the man sent out a raven, but it stayed out to eat dead bodies. He next sent out a dove, which returned to tell what the raven was doing, and ravens have been cursed to eat carrion since. God ordered that no fires be kindled, but one man disobeyed and was turned into a dog. [Horcasitas, p. 196]



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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2011, 12:30:44 AM »

I actually took a course on Noah's Ark and other issues of that ilk last year. Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2011, 12:32:42 AM »

That would be a cool class.
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2011, 01:15:49 AM »

Well think about it, if there was a global period of warming and the ice in the poles melted, the water level would've risen a good bit. It diffinitely would be flooding for all areas close to water (where much of civilization would be at the time). If the poles melted then the water level world wide could've risen as high as 200 feet, if Greenland also melts chalk on another 20 feet.

This is the earth in the Cretaceous Period (199.6-145.5 mya). You can see how much water covered the earth as the climate was much warmer and the ice caps where practically non-existant.
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