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Author Topic: Biblical Views on Sexuality. Yes' and No's.  (Read 559 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 30, 2014, 07:06:32 AM »

I've heard some of the fathers had a negative view of Sex, and they believed Sex to be either the reason or the consequence of the fall or both and that Original Sin is passed through concupiscence. The bible itself speaks of sex, in very explicit manners. Paragraphs like :

PR 5:19 (KJV) "... Let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love."

SO 1:13 "My beloved is to me a bag of myrrh, that lies between my breasts."

SO 2:3 "I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste."

EZ 16:36 "... your shame was laid bare and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotries with your lovers ...."

EZ 16:37 "Therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you took pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness."

EZ 16:39 "... they will strip you of your clothes, ... and leave you naked and bare."

EZ 23:3 "They played the harlot in Egypt; they played the harlot in their youth; there were their breasts fondled and their virgin bosoms handled." Or, as the KJV puts it: "they bruised the teats of their virginity."

EZ 23:8 (KJV) "... in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her."

EZ 23:17 (KJV) "And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them ...."

EZ 23:20-21 (RSV) "Yet she increased her harlotry ... and doted on her paramours there, whose members [i.e., sexual organs] were like those of asses and whose issue was like that of horses. Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom and pressed your young breasts."

EZ 23:29 (KJV) "... and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms."

EZ 23:34 "You shall ... pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts."

HO 1:2 (KJV) "And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom.'"

So what are the 'Yes' and 'No's' of Sexuality according to the Bible? What is totally forbidden an outlawed in sex according to the Bible? Is 'premarital sex' outrageous? Is 'oral sex outrageous? Is 'anal sex; outrageous? Is homosexual sex outrageous? What about 'gender transformation'? Fetishes?
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2014, 07:32:44 AM »

I've heard some of the fathers had a negative view of Sex, and they believed Sex to be either the reason or the consequence of the fall or both and that Original Sin is passed through concupiscence. The bible itself speaks of sex, in very explicit manners. Paragraphs like :

PR 5:19 (KJV) "... Let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love."

SO 1:13 "My beloved is to me a bag of myrrh, that lies between my breasts."

SO 2:3 "I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste."

EZ 16:36 "... your shame was laid bare and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotries with your lovers ...."

EZ 16:37 "Therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you took pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness."

EZ 16:39 "... they will strip you of your clothes, ... and leave you naked and bare."

EZ 23:3 "They played the harlot in Egypt; they played the harlot in their youth; there were their breasts fondled and their virgin bosoms handled." Or, as the KJV puts it: "they bruised the teats of their virginity."

EZ 23:8 (KJV) "... in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her."

EZ 23:17 (KJV) "And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them ...."

EZ 23:20-21 (RSV) "Yet she increased her harlotry ... and doted on her paramours there, whose members [i.e., sexual organs] were like those of asses and whose issue was like that of horses. Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom and pressed your young breasts."

EZ 23:29 (KJV) "... and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms."

EZ 23:34 "You shall ... pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts."

HO 1:2 (KJV) "And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom.'"

So what are the 'Yes' and 'No's' of Sexuality according to the Bible? What is totally forbidden an outlawed in sex according to the Bible? Is 'premarital sex' outrageous? Is 'oral sex outrageous? Is 'anal sex; outrageous? Is homosexual sex outrageous? What about 'gender transformation'? Fetishes?

Sex without marriage is forbidden and the punishment is death.
Anal sex is forbidden.
Homosexual sex is forbidden and the punishment is death.
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2014, 02:59:53 PM »

Indocern has been reading canons without his glasses, again.
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2014, 03:04:16 PM »

Skydive, (putting your introductory paragraph aside) I think this is a beautiful collection of scripture, on the whole. As a married man, it helps me to think of making love as a spiritual discipline (after e.g. St. Paul, I Cor 7), and I feel sure this has then brought much health and peace to my marriage.
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2014, 03:09:36 PM »

Indocern has been reading canons without his glasses, again.

This is from GOD's law.
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2014, 05:56:50 PM »

Indocern has been reading canons without his glasses, again.

This is from GOD's law.
Who may administer the punishment of death for homosexual sex?
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2014, 06:34:45 PM »

What is it with some people and putting "God" in all caps?
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2014, 06:38:46 PM »

What is it with some people and putting "God" in all caps?

In the AV1611, the all caps LORD is meant to signify the use of "Yahweh." I suspect it's something similar in this poster's mind.

Of course, in Orthodox publications, bishops get the all caps treatment, too. Never gotten a good reason for that other than "that's what we do," which doesn't bug me.
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2014, 06:39:31 PM »

At least he has the o there.


that's something
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2014, 08:13:21 PM »

What is it with some people and putting "God" in all caps?

In the AV1611, the all caps LORD is meant to signify the use of "Yahweh." I suspect it's something similar in this poster's mind. ...

You're right on, here. The practice, which is becoming ridiculously popular among fundamentalists on the Internet, is based on a doctrine based on a misunderstanding of what the KJV translators were up to. Where the Hebrew text actually says such things as "Yahveh your God" or "the Yahveh God" or "the Lord Yahveh," out of respect for tradition, but with an eye on scholarly accuracy, the translators put e.g. "the LORD your God," "the LORD God," or "the Lord GOD." One of innumerable examples of backwoods preachers inventing doctrine or practice in defiance of their own ignorance and its becoming an American movement.
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2014, 08:20:55 PM »

Indocern has been reading canons without his glasses, again.

This is from GOD's law.
Who may administer the punishment of death for homosexual sex?

Indocern.  Or the average Bible reader.  It's all right there in Bulgarian, just as God wrote it. 
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2014, 10:24:09 PM »

This is only my opinion because I can't imagine why they do write like that.

I wonder if they were just jealous or bitter???

I mean I can imagine a man being bitter living as a hermit or in a monastery when they see another man who is happily married with children.  I can't imagine it.  I can't live it.

I wonder if it chapped them extra bad when they read that a bishop can even have a wife in the scriptures.

I also wonder if Paul stating it is better not to be married if he was just the same or had a bitter experience.  Seriously.   He had no clue as to why people get married (ie burning in passion for each other).   The physical love making is wonderful, but there are so many reasons that it's good to be married.

I'm a guy, I don't recognize fine details.  I'd wrap presents in newspaper.  I don't notice dishes with water spots.   Colors are basic colors.   My wife said mauve the other day and I was like "huh"?  A bandage to me is duct tape and a napkin.   

I need my wife.
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2014, 10:31:49 PM »

This is only my opinion because I can't imagine why they do write like that.

I wonder if they were just jealous or bitter???

I mean I can imagine a man being bitter living as a hermit or in a monastery when they see another man who is happily married with children.  I can't imagine it.  I can't live it.

I wonder if it chapped them extra bad when they read that a bishop can even have a wife in the scriptures.

Who are "they"?

Quote
I also wonder if Paul stating it is better not to be married if he was just the same or had a bitter experience.  Seriously.   He had no clue as to why people get married (ie burning in passion for each other).   The physical love making is wonderful, but there are so many reasons that it's good to be married.

How much of the New Testament is in your Bible?  St Paul said more about marriage than "burning in passion for each other" (citation, please?). 

And I suppose the Holy Spirit has no role in the truth value of Scripture.  It's just a bunch of stuff unstable, undersexed men wrote out of their envy and bitterness. 

Quote
I'm a guy, I don't recognize fine details.  I'd wrap presents in newspaper.  I don't notice dishes with water spots.   Colors are basic colors.   My wife said mauve the other day and I was like "huh"?  A bandage to me is duct tape and a napkin.   

I need my wife.


Maybe she can exegete Scripture for you. 
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2014, 10:59:29 PM »

This is only my opinion because I can't imagine why they do write like that.

I wonder if they were just jealous or bitter???

I mean I can imagine a man being bitter living as a hermit or in a monastery when they see another man who is happily married with children.  I can't imagine it.  I can't live it.

I wonder if it chapped them extra bad when they read that a bishop can even have a wife in the scriptures.

Who are "they"?

Quote
I also wonder if Paul stating it is better not to be married if he was just the same or had a bitter experience.  Seriously.   He had no clue as to why people get married (ie burning in passion for each other).   The physical love making is wonderful, but there are so many reasons that it's good to be married.

How much of the New Testament is in your Bible?  St Paul said more about marriage than "burning in passion for each other" (citation, please?). 

And I suppose the Holy Spirit has no role in the truth value of Scripture.  It's just a bunch of stuff unstable, undersexed men wrote out of their envy and bitterness. 

Quote
I'm a guy, I don't recognize fine details.  I'd wrap presents in newspaper.  I don't notice dishes with water spots.   Colors are basic colors.   My wife said mauve the other day and I was like "huh"?  A bandage to me is duct tape and a napkin.   

I need my wife.


Maybe she can exegete Scripture for you. 

1 Corinthians 7:9 for example.

But yes, he did talk about the roles of husband and wife and how he loves her as himself and she submits to him as the church does to Christ.  But where on why to marry except passion?


As for my wife -
Yes she can.   She could even exegete scriptures to many priests I've known to be honest.  They just wouldn't believe it and cite tradition over the words of God. 

In fact, if you picked any random priest and sat them in front of the Bible Trivia board game with my 15 year old daughter - I am not a betting man, but my money would be absolutely on my daughter.  Yes, I am absolutely serious.  The girl next to has it memorized.   All of her friends have meets and memorize entire chapters of it together.   They are memorizing the book of Kings right now and are on one of the chapters.  They seem to understand it very well.
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2014, 11:10:28 PM »

This is only my opinion because I can't imagine why they do write like that.

I wonder if they were just jealous or bitter???

I mean I can imagine a man being bitter living as a hermit or in a monastery when they see another man who is happily married with children.  I can't imagine it.  I can't live it.

I wonder if it chapped them extra bad when they read that a bishop can even have a wife in the scriptures.

Who are "they"?

Quote
I also wonder if Paul stating it is better not to be married if he was just the same or had a bitter experience.  Seriously.   He had no clue as to why people get married (ie burning in passion for each other).   The physical love making is wonderful, but there are so many reasons that it's good to be married.

How much of the New Testament is in your Bible?  St Paul said more about marriage than "burning in passion for each other" (citation, please?). 

And I suppose the Holy Spirit has no role in the truth value of Scripture.  It's just a bunch of stuff unstable, undersexed men wrote out of their envy and bitterness. 

Quote
I'm a guy, I don't recognize fine details.  I'd wrap presents in newspaper.  I don't notice dishes with water spots.   Colors are basic colors.   My wife said mauve the other day and I was like "huh"?  A bandage to me is duct tape and a napkin.   

I need my wife.


Maybe she can exegete Scripture for you. 

1 Corinthians 7:9 for example.

But yes, he did talk about the roles of husband and wife and how he loves her as himself and she submits to him as the church does to Christ.  But where on why to marry except passion?


As for my wife -
Yes she can.   She could even exegete scriptures to many priests I've known to be honest.  They just wouldn't believe it and cite tradition over the words of God. 

In fact, if you picked any random priest and sat them in front of the Bible Trivia board game with my 15 year old daughter - I am not a betting man, but my money would be absolutely on my daughter.  Yes, I am absolutely serious.  The girl next to has it memorized.   All of her friends have meets and memorize entire chapters of it together.   They are memorizing the book of Kings right now and are on one of the chapters.  They seem to understand it very well.

Memorizing Scripture is useless if one does not understand the proper context, meaning, interpretation, symbolism, allegory.....etc. Understanding Scriptures goes beyond simply memorizing the verses at face value. Those verses are simply just another combination of words, numbers and letters without meaning.
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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2014, 11:10:40 PM »

This is only my opinion because I can't imagine why they do write like that.

I wonder if they were just jealous or bitter???

I mean I can imagine a man being bitter living as a hermit or in a monastery when they see another man who is happily married with children.  I can't imagine it.  I can't live it.

I wonder if it chapped them extra bad when they read that a bishop can even have a wife in the scriptures.

I also wonder if Paul stating it is better not to be married if he was just the same or had a bitter experience.  Seriously.   He had no clue as to why people get married (ie burning in passion for each other).   The physical love making is wonderful, but there are so many reasons that it's good to be married.

I'm a guy, I don't recognize fine details.  I'd wrap presents in newspaper.  I don't notice dishes with water spots.   Colors are basic colors.   My wife said mauve the other day and I was like "huh"?  A bandage to me is duct tape and a napkin.   

I need my wife.


Good post.  I agree completely.
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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2014, 11:16:59 PM »

This is only my opinion because I can't imagine why they do write like that.

I wonder if they were just jealous or bitter???

I mean I can imagine a man being bitter living as a hermit or in a monastery when they see another man who is happily married with children.  I can't imagine it.  I can't live it.

I wonder if it chapped them extra bad when they read that a bishop can even have a wife in the scriptures.

Who are "they"?

Quote
I also wonder if Paul stating it is better not to be married if he was just the same or had a bitter experience.  Seriously.   He had no clue as to why people get married (ie burning in passion for each other).   The physical love making is wonderful, but there are so many reasons that it's good to be married.

How much of the New Testament is in your Bible?  St Paul said more about marriage than "burning in passion for each other" (citation, please?). 

And I suppose the Holy Spirit has no role in the truth value of Scripture.  It's just a bunch of stuff unstable, undersexed men wrote out of their envy and bitterness. 

Quote
I'm a guy, I don't recognize fine details.  I'd wrap presents in newspaper.  I don't notice dishes with water spots.   Colors are basic colors.   My wife said mauve the other day and I was like "huh"?  A bandage to me is duct tape and a napkin.   

I need my wife.


Maybe she can exegete Scripture for you. 

1 Corinthians 7:9 for example.

But yes, he did talk about the roles of husband and wife and how he loves her as himself and she submits to him as the church does to Christ.  But where on why to marry except passion?


As for my wife -
Yes she can.   She could even exegete scriptures to many priests I've known to be honest.  They just wouldn't believe it and cite tradition over the words of God. 

In fact, if you picked any random priest and sat them in front of the Bible Trivia board game with my 15 year old daughter - I am not a betting man, but my money would be absolutely on my daughter.  Yes, I am absolutely serious.  The girl next to has it memorized.   All of her friends have meets and memorize entire chapters of it together.   They are memorizing the book of Kings right now and are on one of the chapters.  They seem to understand it very well.

Memorizing Scripture is useless if one does not understand the proper context, meaning, interpretation, symbolism, allegory.....etc. Understanding Scriptures goes beyond simply memorizing the verses at face value. Those verses are simply just another combination of words, numbers and letters without meaning.

Yes, to properly understand Scripture, one has to drink the KoolAid.  You see, the Holy Spirit is so dumb that when He inspired the Holy Ones to write the Scriptures, He left them unclear so that they could only be interpreted by those who knew the secret handshake.  This way, like the snake in the garden, when confronted with what they did not want to hear from the Scripture, they could say "did God really say that? Forget what God said, believe us."  Holy Tradition, the New Talmud.
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« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2014, 11:57:15 PM »

This is only my opinion because I can't imagine why they do write like that.

I wonder if they were just jealous or bitter???

I mean I can imagine a man being bitter living as a hermit or in a monastery when they see another man who is happily married with children.  I can't imagine it.  I can't live it.

I wonder if it chapped them extra bad when they read that a bishop can even have a wife in the scriptures.

Who are "they"?

Quote
I also wonder if Paul stating it is better not to be married if he was just the same or had a bitter experience.  Seriously.   He had no clue as to why people get married (ie burning in passion for each other).   The physical love making is wonderful, but there are so many reasons that it's good to be married.

How much of the New Testament is in your Bible?  St Paul said more about marriage than "burning in passion for each other" (citation, please?). 

And I suppose the Holy Spirit has no role in the truth value of Scripture.  It's just a bunch of stuff unstable, undersexed men wrote out of their envy and bitterness. 

Quote
I'm a guy, I don't recognize fine details.  I'd wrap presents in newspaper.  I don't notice dishes with water spots.   Colors are basic colors.   My wife said mauve the other day and I was like "huh"?  A bandage to me is duct tape and a napkin.   

I need my wife.


Maybe she can exegete Scripture for you. 

1 Corinthians 7:9 for example.

But yes, he did talk about the roles of husband and wife and how he loves her as himself and she submits to him as the church does to Christ.  But where on why to marry except passion?


As for my wife -
Yes she can.   She could even exegete scriptures to many priests I've known to be honest.  They just wouldn't believe it and cite tradition over the words of God. 

In fact, if you picked any random priest and sat them in front of the Bible Trivia board game with my 15 year old daughter - I am not a betting man, but my money would be absolutely on my daughter.  Yes, I am absolutely serious.  The girl next to has it memorized.   All of her friends have meets and memorize entire chapters of it together.   They are memorizing the book of Kings right now and are on one of the chapters.  They seem to understand it very well.

Memorizing Scripture is useless if one does not understand the proper context, meaning, interpretation, symbolism, allegory.....etc. Understanding Scriptures goes beyond simply memorizing the verses at face value. Those verses are simply just another combination of words, numbers and letters without meaning.

Yes, to properly understand Scripture, one has to drink the KoolAid.  You see, the Holy Spirit is so dumb that when He inspired the Holy Ones to write the Scriptures, He left them unclear so that they could only be interpreted by those who knew the secret handshake.  This way, like the snake in the garden, when confronted with what they did not want to hear from the Scripture, they could say "did God really say that? Forget what God said, believe us."  Holy Tradition, the New Talmud.

Yup, you've succumbed to the snake in the garden.
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« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2014, 12:09:27 AM »

This is only my opinion because I can't imagine why they do write like that.

I wonder if they were just jealous or bitter???

I mean I can imagine a man being bitter living as a hermit or in a monastery when they see another man who is happily married with children.  I can't imagine it.  I can't live it.

I wonder if it chapped them extra bad when they read that a bishop can even have a wife in the scriptures.

Who are "they"?

Quote
I also wonder if Paul stating it is better not to be married if he was just the same or had a bitter experience.  Seriously.   He had no clue as to why people get married (ie burning in passion for each other).   The physical love making is wonderful, but there are so many reasons that it's good to be married.

How much of the New Testament is in your Bible?  St Paul said more about marriage than "burning in passion for each other" (citation, please?). 

And I suppose the Holy Spirit has no role in the truth value of Scripture.  It's just a bunch of stuff unstable, undersexed men wrote out of their envy and bitterness. 

Quote
I'm a guy, I don't recognize fine details.  I'd wrap presents in newspaper.  I don't notice dishes with water spots.   Colors are basic colors.   My wife said mauve the other day and I was like "huh"?  A bandage to me is duct tape and a napkin.   

I need my wife.


Maybe she can exegete Scripture for you. 

1 Corinthians 7:9 for example.

But yes, he did talk about the roles of husband and wife and how he loves her as himself and she submits to him as the church does to Christ.  But where on why to marry except passion?


As for my wife -
Yes she can.   She could even exegete scriptures to many priests I've known to be honest.  They just wouldn't believe it and cite tradition over the words of God. 

In fact, if you picked any random priest and sat them in front of the Bible Trivia board game with my 15 year old daughter - I am not a betting man, but my money would be absolutely on my daughter.  Yes, I am absolutely serious.  The girl next to has it memorized.   All of her friends have meets and memorize entire chapters of it together.   They are memorizing the book of Kings right now and are on one of the chapters.  They seem to understand it very well.

Memorizing Scripture is useless if one does not understand the proper context, meaning, interpretation, symbolism, allegory.....etc. Understanding Scriptures goes beyond simply memorizing the verses at face value. Those verses are simply just another combination of words, numbers and letters without meaning.

Funny how when you look at the Jewish churches today, they go along with scripture and their understanding of scripture reflects the scripture.  It's pretty much face value.  Their feasts are their feasts.  Their rules are generally their rules.  Their law is their law.   The oral law is just expanded law of the scriptures.

Then you go over to the other end of the table with memorized scripture such as "call no man master" and you'll have somebody tell you why it is perfectly okay to call a man maser defying Scripture.

When you can show me a Jewish church that casts aside any of the 10 commandments with because their explanation states that you don't actually need to because the context was not understood, then I'll listen to what you are saying.

Otherwise, explanations are just excuses to disobey an otherwise easy to follow set of rules.
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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2014, 12:18:44 AM »

This is only my opinion because I can't imagine why they do write like that.

I wonder if they were just jealous or bitter???

I mean I can imagine a man being bitter living as a hermit or in a monastery when they see another man who is happily married with children.  I can't imagine it.  I can't live it.

I wonder if it chapped them extra bad when they read that a bishop can even have a wife in the scriptures.

Who are "they"?

Quote
I also wonder if Paul stating it is better not to be married if he was just the same or had a bitter experience.  Seriously.   He had no clue as to why people get married (ie burning in passion for each other).   The physical love making is wonderful, but there are so many reasons that it's good to be married.

How much of the New Testament is in your Bible?  St Paul said more about marriage than "burning in passion for each other" (citation, please?). 

And I suppose the Holy Spirit has no role in the truth value of Scripture.  It's just a bunch of stuff unstable, undersexed men wrote out of their envy and bitterness. 

Quote
I'm a guy, I don't recognize fine details.  I'd wrap presents in newspaper.  I don't notice dishes with water spots.   Colors are basic colors.   My wife said mauve the other day and I was like "huh"?  A bandage to me is duct tape and a napkin.   

I need my wife.


Maybe she can exegete Scripture for you. 

1 Corinthians 7:9 for example.

But yes, he did talk about the roles of husband and wife and how he loves her as himself and she submits to him as the church does to Christ.  But where on why to marry except passion?


As for my wife -
Yes she can.   She could even exegete scriptures to many priests I've known to be honest.  They just wouldn't believe it and cite tradition over the words of God. 

In fact, if you picked any random priest and sat them in front of the Bible Trivia board game with my 15 year old daughter - I am not a betting man, but my money would be absolutely on my daughter.  Yes, I am absolutely serious.  The girl next to has it memorized.   All of her friends have meets and memorize entire chapters of it together.   They are memorizing the book of Kings right now and are on one of the chapters.  They seem to understand it very well.

Memorizing Scripture is useless if one does not understand the proper context, meaning, interpretation, symbolism, allegory.....etc. Understanding Scriptures goes beyond simply memorizing the verses at face value. Those verses are simply just another combination of words, numbers and letters without meaning.

Funny how when you look at the Jewish churches today, they go along with scripture and their understanding of scripture reflects the scripture.  It's pretty much face value.  Their feasts are their feasts.  Their rules are generally their rules.  Their law is their law.   The oral law is just expanded law of the scriptures.

Then you go over to the other end of the table with memorized scripture such as "call no man master" and you'll have somebody tell you why it is perfectly okay to call a man maser defying Scripture.

When you can show me a Jewish church that casts aside any of the 10 commandments with because their explanation states that you don't actually need to because the context was not understood, then I'll listen to what you are saying.

Otherwise, explanations are just excuses to disobey an otherwise easy to follow set of rules.

90% of Jewish synagogues will marry homosexual couples.
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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2014, 12:23:26 AM »

I think that Y brings up some good points. How many of us have truly thought about some of the things he has said? I think that many of us just go along with this faith because we've grown so accustomed to it that we don't stop to understand or ask why we are doing and believe what we do and believe. Perhaps this is why many people reach a spiritual crossroads at some point in their life where the questions finally catch up with them and they feel misled and/or betrayed.

In regards to sexuality, I do notice a difference between the biblical approach and the Church's approach. The former seems to glorify it as something good and doesn't place extra burdens on husband and wife except fasting for prayer. The Bible speaks very openly and positively about sex in its proper context, even glorifying it in some cases. Whereas on the other hand, the Church seems to almost unanimously hold a negative view that sex is dirty, bad, or taboo. It makes you guilty to even desire it or enjoy it. I cannot think of a single Church Father who had anything positive to say about sex except maybe St. John Chrysostom.

It would be useful to learn how the Church's views on sexuality relate to the Bible and if they are different, why that difference is there and how we justify it.
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Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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James, you have problemz.
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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2014, 12:24:09 AM »

90% of Jewish synagogues will marry homosexual couples.

I don't think that Reform Jews are considered real Jews by most of the Jewish community but I am uncertain.
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Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2014, 12:28:29 AM »

This is only my opinion because I can't imagine why they do write like that.

I wonder if they were just jealous or bitter???

I mean I can imagine a man being bitter living as a hermit or in a monastery when they see another man who is happily married with children.  I can't imagine it.  I can't live it.

I wonder if it chapped them extra bad when they read that a bishop can even have a wife in the scriptures.

Who are "they"?

Quote
I also wonder if Paul stating it is better not to be married if he was just the same or had a bitter experience.  Seriously.   He had no clue as to why people get married (ie burning in passion for each other).   The physical love making is wonderful, but there are so many reasons that it's good to be married.

How much of the New Testament is in your Bible?  St Paul said more about marriage than "burning in passion for each other" (citation, please?). 

And I suppose the Holy Spirit has no role in the truth value of Scripture.  It's just a bunch of stuff unstable, undersexed men wrote out of their envy and bitterness. 

Quote
I'm a guy, I don't recognize fine details.  I'd wrap presents in newspaper.  I don't notice dishes with water spots.   Colors are basic colors.   My wife said mauve the other day and I was like "huh"?  A bandage to me is duct tape and a napkin.   

I need my wife.


Maybe she can exegete Scripture for you. 

1 Corinthians 7:9 for example.

But yes, he did talk about the roles of husband and wife and how he loves her as himself and she submits to him as the church does to Christ.  But where on why to marry except passion?


As for my wife -
Yes she can.   She could even exegete scriptures to many priests I've known to be honest.  They just wouldn't believe it and cite tradition over the words of God. 

In fact, if you picked any random priest and sat them in front of the Bible Trivia board game with my 15 year old daughter - I am not a betting man, but my money would be absolutely on my daughter.  Yes, I am absolutely serious.  The girl next to has it memorized.   All of her friends have meets and memorize entire chapters of it together.   They are memorizing the book of Kings right now and are on one of the chapters.  They seem to understand it very well.

Memorizing Scripture is useless if one does not understand the proper context, meaning, interpretation, symbolism, allegory.....etc. Understanding Scriptures goes beyond simply memorizing the verses at face value. Those verses are simply just another combination of words, numbers and letters without meaning.

Yes, to properly understand Scripture, one has to drink the KoolAid.  You see, the Holy Spirit is so dumb that when He inspired the Holy Ones to write the Scriptures, He left them unclear so that they could only be interpreted by those who knew the secret handshake.  This way, like the snake in the garden, when confronted with what they did not want to hear from the Scripture, they could say "did God really say that? Forget what God said, believe us."  Holy Tradition, the New Talmud.

Yup, you've succumbed to the snake in the garden.

Sin is transgression of the law.  This is direct and from the scriptures. (1 John 3:4)

If a "holy" tradition speaks otherwise and encourages ones to transgress the law, then it is sinful tradition.

I have no problem if Holy tradition adheres to a tradition itself, but when it is used to violate and directly contradict the scriptures (and commands directly from Jesus's mouth) I can't call it Holy.  (Insert once again "Master" argument here).    

The serpent deceived Eve by telling her that it was okay to directly disobey a command from God.  When you call a bishop a "master", you are directly disobeying a command from God.  The serpent sounds more like the tradition you talk about, which gives excuse (which I still have no answer for) as to why you call a man "master".

With that and in context of the thread, the bishops who are celibate (unlike in the bible), are often ones who speak things about "how sex should be".    The church should probably stay out of the bedroom of married people.  The Jews understood the married man to be the priest of his home.    I don't see any reason why a man and wife can't decide on their bedroom business.

If you don't agree, the next time you are about to get busy, just imagine 20 hermit monks surrounding your bed and watching you (all with floor length beards) and telling you what you can and can't do to your one flesh, betrothed, and wedded spouse...  Spouting all kinds of traditions at you in complete judgment.

For me, I'll take the song of songs and biblical understanding in the context of which they understood it.  I am my betrothed and she is mine.
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2014, 12:30:30 AM »

90% of Jewish synagogues will marry homosexual couples.

I don't think that Reform Jews are considered real Jews by most of the Jewish community but I am uncertain.

Reform Jews follow Protestant translations of the Torah.

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Funny how when you look at the Jewish churches today, they go along with scripture and their understanding of scripture reflects the scripture.  It's pretty much face value.  Their feasts are their feasts.  Their rules are generally their rules.  Their law is their law.   The oral law is just expanded law of the scriptures.

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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2014, 12:41:44 AM »

Sin is transgression of the law.  This is direct and from the scriptures. (1 John 3:4)

If a "holy" tradition speaks otherwise and encourages ones to transgress the law, then it is sinful tradition.

I have no problem if Holy tradition adheres to a tradition itself, but when it is used to violate and directly contradict the scriptures (and commands directly from Jesus's mouth) I can't call it Holy.  (Insert once again "Master" argument here).    

The serpent deceived Eve by telling her that it was okay to directly disobey a command from God.  When you call a bishop a "master", you are directly disobeying a command from God.  The serpent sounds more like the tradition you talk about, which gives excuse (which I still have no answer for) as to why you call a man "master".

With that and in context of the thread, the bishops who are celibate (unlike in the bible), are often ones who speak things about "how sex should be".    The church should probably stay out of the bedroom of married people.  The Jews understood the married man to be the priest of his home.    I don't see any reason why a man and wife can't decide on their bedroom business.

If you don't agree, the next time you are about to get busy, just imagine 20 hermit monks surrounding your bed and watching you (all with floor length beards) and telling you what you can and can't do to your one flesh, betrothed, and wedded spouse...  Spouting all kinds of traditions at you in complete judgment.

For me, I'll take the song of songs and biblical understanding in the context of which they understood it.  I am my betrothed and she is mine.

The Orthodox Christian family is to be the replica of the Church.  The Church is incorruptible; the family, well, is corruptible.

From God every family in heaven and on earth is named (Eph. 3:15)

(Citation taken from here)

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« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2014, 12:42:37 AM »

I think that Y brings up some good points. How many of us have truly thought about some of the things he has said? I think that many of us just go along with this faith because we've grown so accustomed to it that we don't stop to understand or ask why we are doing and believe what we do and believe. Perhaps this is why many people reach a spiritual crossroads at some point in their life where the questions finally catch up with them and they feel misled and/or betrayed.

In regards to sexuality, I do notice a difference between the biblical approach and the Church's approach. The former seems to glorify it as something good and doesn't place extra burdens on husband and wife except fasting for prayer. The Bible speaks very openly and positively about sex in its proper context, even glorifying it in some cases. Whereas on the other hand, the Church seems to almost unanimously hold a negative view that sex is dirty, bad, or taboo. It makes you guilty to even desire it or enjoy it. I cannot think of a single Church Father who had anything positive to say about sex except maybe St. John Chrysostom.

It would be useful to learn how the Church's views on sexuality relate to the Bible and if they are different, why that difference is there and how we justify it.

Thank you James.  Of course I must say that many points could be wrong I make.   The thing is I understand perfectly well how the EO get angry when directly challenged.  I was one of them for a long time, and still heavily appreciate many parts of the EO church.

The thing is, it is a package deal.  You are either in 100% agreement or you are out.

You will either respect that celibate bishops spoke that your future wife's body is taboo in ways or that it is yours.  Scriptures tell us 1 Corinthians 7:4 - "The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife."

No where does it say that you or her yield your bodies (sexually) to the church.

With that said, YES it can lead to perversions in people and even marriages.   I think most people know where love making ends and perversion begins.  It can be a number of things of course, but that is up for the couple to decide and understand between themselves.  Yes, this leaves amorphous gray areas, but honestly, I believe we are all "are pretty sure" what is perversion and what is not.
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« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2014, 12:45:50 AM »

90% of Jewish synagogues will marry homosexual couples.

I don't think that Reform Jews are considered real Jews by most of the Jewish community but I am uncertain.

Reform Jews follow Protestant translations of the Torah.

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Funny how when you look at the Jewish churches today, they go along with scripture and their understanding of scripture reflects the scripture.  It's pretty much face value.  Their feasts are their feasts.  Their rules are generally their rules.  Their law is their law.   The oral law is just expanded law of the scriptures.

So what do they do that directly defies Torah law?
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« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2014, 12:48:29 AM »

90% of Jewish synagogues will marry homosexual couples.

I don't think that Reform Jews are considered real Jews by most of the Jewish community but I am uncertain.

Reform Jews follow Protestant translations of the Torah.

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Funny how when you look at the Jewish churches today, they go along with scripture and their understanding of scripture reflects the scripture.  It's pretty much face value.  Their feasts are their feasts.  Their rules are generally their rules.  Their law is their law.   The oral law is just expanded law of the scriptures.

So what do they do that directly defies Torah law?

Does the Torah allow homosexuals to marry each other?
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« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2014, 12:56:36 AM »

90% of Jewish synagogues will marry homosexual couples.

I don't think that Reform Jews are considered real Jews by most of the Jewish community but I am uncertain.

Reform Jews follow Protestant translations of the Torah.

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Funny how when you look at the Jewish churches today, they go along with scripture and their understanding of scripture reflects the scripture.  It's pretty much face value.  Their feasts are their feasts.  Their rules are generally their rules.  Their law is their law.   The oral law is just expanded law of the scriptures.

So what do they do that directly defies Torah law?

Does the Torah allow homosexuals to marry each other?

Reform Jews are not the Jews I was speaking of.

Ironic that is your example.

Does the Torah allow homosexuals to marry each other?  No
Does Jesus Christ allow you to call a man master?  No

But interpretation and explanation (tradition) does.  It's pretty clear that "tradition aka oral law" advocates sin. 

There is one author in the scriptures that is hard to understand.  It's Paul's writings.  Peter even said so.  Otherwise I don't think there is much need for people to distort scriptures with conflated opinions.

Just as in this thread, you have a beautiful (biblical) way of being married.  Your spouses body is yours, and your body is your spouses.   Song of songs (although not modern written) is beautiful.   Then a celibate bishop decides to leap into the bedroom and tell you "no-no you shouldn't do that".     Yikes!
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« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2014, 01:11:25 AM »

90% of Jewish synagogues will marry homosexual couples.

I don't think that Reform Jews are considered real Jews by most of the Jewish community but I am uncertain.

Reform Jews follow Protestant translations of the Torah.

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Funny how when you look at the Jewish churches today, they go along with scripture and their understanding of scripture reflects the scripture.  It's pretty much face value.  Their feasts are their feasts.  Their rules are generally their rules.  Their law is their law.   The oral law is just expanded law of the scriptures.

So what do they do that directly defies Torah law?

Does the Torah allow homosexuals to marry each other?

Reform Jews are not the Jews I was speaking of.

Ironic that is your example.

It's not ironic.  Judaism has been undergoing "reform" long before the temple was destroyed in 586 BC.

Does the Torah allow homosexuals to marry each other?  No
Does Jesus Christ allow you to call a man master?  No

Does Jesus Christ allow homosexual couples to marry and if he does, why does he?

But interpretation and explanation (tradition) does.  It's pretty clear that "tradition aka oral law" advocates sin. 

There is one author in the scriptures that is hard to understand.  It's Paul's writings.  Peter even said so.  Otherwise I don't think there is much need for people to distort scriptures with conflated opinions.

Just as in this thread, you have a beautiful (biblical) way of being married.  Your spouses body is yours, and your body is your spouses.   Song of songs (although not modern written) is beautiful.   Then a celibate bishop decides to leap into the bedroom and tell you "no-no you shouldn't do that".     Yikes!

Celibate Orthodox bishops have already frowned upon same sex marriage.  That's good enough for me.   Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2014, 06:33:19 AM »

This is only my opinion because I can't imagine why they do write like that.

I wonder if they were just jealous or bitter???

I mean I can imagine a man being bitter living as a hermit or in a monastery when they see another man who is happily married with children.  I can't imagine it.  I can't live it.

I wonder if it chapped them extra bad when they read that a bishop can even have a wife in the scriptures.

Who are "they"?

Quote
I also wonder if Paul stating it is better not to be married if he was just the same or had a bitter experience.  Seriously.   He had no clue as to why people get married (ie burning in passion for each other).   The physical love making is wonderful, but there are so many reasons that it's good to be married.

How much of the New Testament is in your Bible?  St Paul said more about marriage than "burning in passion for each other" (citation, please?). 

And I suppose the Holy Spirit has no role in the truth value of Scripture.  It's just a bunch of stuff unstable, undersexed men wrote out of their envy and bitterness. 

Quote
I'm a guy, I don't recognize fine details.  I'd wrap presents in newspaper.  I don't notice dishes with water spots.   Colors are basic colors.   My wife said mauve the other day and I was like "huh"?  A bandage to me is duct tape and a napkin.   

I need my wife.


Maybe she can exegete Scripture for you. 

1 Corinthians 7:9 for example.

But yes, he did talk about the roles of husband and wife and how he loves her as himself and she submits to him as the church does to Christ.  But where on why to marry except passion?


As for my wife -
Yes she can.   She could even exegete scriptures to many priests I've known to be honest.  They just wouldn't believe it and cite tradition over the words of God. 

In fact, if you picked any random priest and sat them in front of the Bible Trivia board game with my 15 year old daughter - I am not a betting man, but my money would be absolutely on my daughter.  Yes, I am absolutely serious.  The girl next to has it memorized.   All of her friends have meets and memorize entire chapters of it together.   They are memorizing the book of Kings right now and are on one of the chapters.  They seem to understand it very well.

Memorizing Scripture is useless if one does not understand the proper context, meaning, interpretation, symbolism, allegory.....etc. Understanding Scriptures goes beyond simply memorizing the verses at face value. Those verses are simply just another combination of words, numbers and letters without meaning.

Funny how when you look at the Jewish churches today, they go along with scripture and their understanding of scripture reflects the scripture.  It's pretty much face value.  Their feasts are their feasts.  Their rules are generally their rules.  Their law is their law.   The oral law is just expanded law of the scriptures.

Then you go over to the other end of the table with memorized scripture such as "call no man master" and you'll have somebody tell you why it is perfectly okay to call a man maser defying Scripture.

When you can show me a Jewish church that casts aside any of the 10 commandments with because their explanation states that you don't actually need to because the context was not understood, then I'll listen to what you are saying.

Otherwise, explanations are just excuses to disobey an otherwise easy to follow set of rules.

Face Value is something that can be understood at some places such as the Ten Commandments but what happens when we get to something more ambiguous say, the Creation Narrative of Genesis. Are we supposed to take it at face value even though it contradict scientific understanding and findings or stick with it at "face value" despite what Scientific research and evidence have to say otherwise. We cannot expect ourselves to understand Scriptures by reading it and memorizing it merely at "face value", there's deeper meanings to these verses which requires understanding of the context as in cultural and even linguistic to have a better understanding of it. At "face value", all sorts of wild interpretations of Scripture emerge and sprout forth. Well, who could ever forget the Calvinist vs Arminist conflict within Protestantism or the divided issue in regards to the Real Presence. To the Orthodox, Lutheran, Catholic and some Anglicans, when Jesus said that one must "eat His flesh and drink His blood" as recorded in John 6:53, it is taken as literal due to proper contextual understanding and an examination of the circumstances that occurred after His bold declaration. To many Evangelicals, it is merely a symbol which they can appear to make legit through interpretation at a mere "Face value".

As for Jewish Churches that set aside the 10 Commandments, ever heard of Humanistic Judaism before? Many of its adherents certainly don't even believe in God in the first place which clearly violates it.
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« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2014, 06:38:07 AM »

This is only my opinion because I can't imagine why they do write like that.

I wonder if they were just jealous or bitter???

I mean I can imagine a man being bitter living as a hermit or in a monastery when they see another man who is happily married with children.  I can't imagine it.  I can't live it.

I wonder if it chapped them extra bad when they read that a bishop can even have a wife in the scriptures.

Who are "they"?

Quote
I also wonder if Paul stating it is better not to be married if he was just the same or had a bitter experience.  Seriously.   He had no clue as to why people get married (ie burning in passion for each other).   The physical love making is wonderful, but there are so many reasons that it's good to be married.

How much of the New Testament is in your Bible?  St Paul said more about marriage than "burning in passion for each other" (citation, please?). 

And I suppose the Holy Spirit has no role in the truth value of Scripture.  It's just a bunch of stuff unstable, undersexed men wrote out of their envy and bitterness. 

Quote
I'm a guy, I don't recognize fine details.  I'd wrap presents in newspaper.  I don't notice dishes with water spots.   Colors are basic colors.   My wife said mauve the other day and I was like "huh"?  A bandage to me is duct tape and a napkin.   

I need my wife.


Maybe she can exegete Scripture for you. 

1 Corinthians 7:9 for example.

But yes, he did talk about the roles of husband and wife and how he loves her as himself and she submits to him as the church does to Christ.  But where on why to marry except passion?


As for my wife -
Yes she can.   She could even exegete scriptures to many priests I've known to be honest.  They just wouldn't believe it and cite tradition over the words of God. 

In fact, if you picked any random priest and sat them in front of the Bible Trivia board game with my 15 year old daughter - I am not a betting man, but my money would be absolutely on my daughter.  Yes, I am absolutely serious.  The girl next to has it memorized.   All of her friends have meets and memorize entire chapters of it together.   They are memorizing the book of Kings right now and are on one of the chapters.  They seem to understand it very well.

Memorizing Scripture is useless if one does not understand the proper context, meaning, interpretation, symbolism, allegory.....etc. Understanding Scriptures goes beyond simply memorizing the verses at face value. Those verses are simply just another combination of words, numbers and letters without meaning.

Yes, to properly understand Scripture, one has to drink the KoolAid.  You see, the Holy Spirit is so dumb that when He inspired the Holy Ones to write the Scriptures, He left them unclear so that they could only be interpreted by those who knew the secret handshake.  This way, like the snake in the garden, when confronted with what they did not want to hear from the Scripture, they could say "did God really say that? Forget what God said, believe us."  Holy Tradition, the New Talmud.

Perhaps a little look at our Protestant brethren would easily explain why we should not merely take Scripture at face value alone and merely memorize and regurgitate it. It is obvious that we must meditate and read the Scriptures regularly but when it comes to interpreting them, it should not be merely based on reading its verses at "Face value" alone.
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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2014, 06:45:17 AM »

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The church should probably stay out of the bedroom of married people.  

Says someone who started a thread on the Mother of God and St Joseph, and openly speculated that they had a conventional marital relationship:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51372.0/all.html

 Tongue Tongue Angry
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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2014, 02:01:33 PM »

1 Corinthians 7:9 for example.

But yes, he did talk about the roles of husband and wife and how he loves her as himself and she submits to him as the church does to Christ.  But where on why to marry except passion?

I don't think St Paul wrote I Corinthians, or any of his epistles, or even all of them as a compendium of all teaching.  He wrote to particular communities with particular needs, and the Church has discerned that these writings are valuable and authoritative beyond their immediate audience and context.  If St Paul tells the Corinthians in I Cor 7.9 that "it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion", the conclusion need not be that St Paul believes the only reason to marry is to prevent fornication.  In the previous two chapters, he addresses the problem of sexual immorality in the Corinthian Church.  When the OT, "Corinthian culture", nature, etc. all have wonderful things to say about marriage, why would he necessarily expound on that if the immediate problem in the community, the problem he wants to address for the welfare of the community, is a sexual immortality so bad it is "not found even among pagans" (I Cor 5.1)? 

You yourself allude to St Paul's teaching about marriage in Ephesians.  The fact that he likens marriage to the relationship between Christ and the Church and links it to the mystery of our salvation, calling marriage itself "a great mystery", ought to clue you in to the fact that St Paul's idea of marriage is not born out of bitterness and jealousy over "not getting any".  But if one makes one's genitals the hermeneutical key for understanding all Scripture, I suppose these misunderstandings are bound to occur, whether they come from a disordered chastity or an unchaste indulgence.       

Quote
As for my wife -
Yes she can.   She could even exegete scriptures to many priests I've known to be honest.  They just wouldn't believe it and cite tradition over the words of God. 

In fact, if you picked any random priest and sat them in front of the Bible Trivia board game with my 15 year old daughter - I am not a betting man, but my money would be absolutely on my daughter.  Yes, I am absolutely serious.  The girl next to has it memorized.   All of her friends have meets and memorize entire chapters of it together.   They are memorizing the book of Kings right now and are on one of the chapters.  They seem to understand it very well.

I come across this way of thinking quite often, and it never makes sense to me.  One can know a text without understanding it.  One can do that in foreign languages as well as in one's own tongue.  I came across a Youtube video the other day of a Coptic girl who apparently memorised the entire Gospel of St Mark.  It's wonderful.  But if I asked her to interpret Mark 8.22-26, I am not sure she could do it.  So does she know it?  The answer is yes and probably no as well, depending on how you understand "knowledge" and "understanding". 

Many people take familiarity with passages and texts for "knowledge" and "understanding" of "the Word".  I'm not convinced that this is the case unless we ascribe to the Scriptural texts some magical power inherent in the words themselves and their arrangement, or if we follow the advice of some of the monastic fathers who taught that we should read Scripture even if we don't understand a word of it because God understands and so does Satan. 
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« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2014, 02:16:53 PM »

1 Corinthians 7:9 for example.

But yes, he did talk about the roles of husband and wife and how he loves her as himself and she submits to him as the church does to Christ.  But where on why to marry except passion?

I don't think St Paul wrote I Corinthians, or any of his epistles, or even all of them as a compendium of all teaching.  He wrote to particular communities with particular needs, and the Church has discerned that these writings are valuable and authoritative beyond their immediate audience and context.  If St Paul tells the Corinthians in I Cor 7.9 that "it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion", the conclusion need not be that St Paul believes the only reason to marry is to prevent fornication.  In the previous two chapters, he addresses the problem of sexual immorality in the Corinthian Church.  When the OT, "Corinthian culture", nature, etc. all have wonderful things to say about marriage, why would he necessarily expound on that if the immediate problem in the community, the problem he wants to address for the welfare of the community, is a sexual immortality so bad it is "not found even among pagans" (I Cor 5.1)? 

You yourself allude to St Paul's teaching about marriage in Ephesians.  The fact that he likens marriage to the relationship between Christ and the Church and links it to the mystery of our salvation, calling marriage itself "a great mystery", ought to clue you in to the fact that St Paul's idea of marriage is not born out of bitterness and jealousy over "not getting any".  But if one makes one's genitals the hermeneutical key for understanding all Scripture, I suppose these misunderstandings are bound to occur, whether they come from a disordered chastity or an unchaste indulgence.       

Quote
As for my wife -
Yes she can.   She could even exegete scriptures to many priests I've known to be honest.  They just wouldn't believe it and cite tradition over the words of God. 

In fact, if you picked any random priest and sat them in front of the Bible Trivia board game with my 15 year old daughter - I am not a betting man, but my money would be absolutely on my daughter.  Yes, I am absolutely serious.  The girl next to has it memorized.   All of her friends have meets and memorize entire chapters of it together.   They are memorizing the book of Kings right now and are on one of the chapters.  They seem to understand it very well.

I come across this way of thinking quite often, and it never makes sense to me.  One can know a text without understanding it.  One can do that in foreign languages as well as in one's own tongue.  I came across a Youtube video the other day of a Coptic girl who apparently memorised the entire Gospel of St Mark.  It's wonderful.  But if I asked her to interpret Mark 8.22-26, I am not sure she could do it.  So does she know it?  The answer is yes and probably no as well, depending on how you understand "knowledge" and "understanding". 

Many people take familiarity with passages and texts for "knowledge" and "understanding" of "the Word".  I'm not convinced that this is the case unless we ascribe to the Scriptural texts some magical power inherent in the words themselves and their arrangement, or if we follow the advice of some of the monastic fathers who taught that we should read Scripture even if we don't understand a word of it because God understands and so does Satan. 

St. Apostle Paul wrote I Corinthians and all the rest.
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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2014, 02:22:25 PM »

One can know a text without understanding it.

St. Apostle Paul wrote I Corinthians and all the rest.

QED. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2014, 02:24:09 PM »

St. Apostle Paul wrote I Corinthians and all the rest.

Thanks! 
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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2014, 04:24:45 PM »

So what are the 'Yes' and 'No's' of Sexuality according to the Bible? What is totally forbidden an outlawed in sex according to the Bible? Is 'premarital sex' outrageous? Is 'oral sex outrageous? Is 'anal sex; outrageous? Is homosexual sex outrageous? What about 'gender transformation'? Fetishes?

Totally forbidden: unless the partakers are a heterosexual married couple, it's forbidden.

Premarital sex: it's a sin, Scripture is pretty clear that it is.

Oral sex: not explicitly forbidden, not even be implicitly forbidden, in fact some of the verses in the Song of Songs seem to imply that the couple are engaging in oral sex. I'm of the opinion that it's not forbidden but again only heterosexual married couples may engage in this practice.

Anal sex: not explicitly forbidden, not even alluded to in Scripture, but read this article on the dangers of this practice: http://site.themarriagebed.com/sexuality/anal-sex. I'm of the opinion that God doesn't approve of every sexual practice a married couple can possibly engage in, especially not those that can cause physical harm and humiliation.

Homosexual sex: see entry for premarital sex

Gender transformation: well the Torah forbids men to dress like women and women to dress like men but I need to look into this topic more. Perhaps someone who's done more research than I have on this topic can elaborate further.

Fetishes: Very loaded topic, this article is worth a read as it covers practically everything: http://site.themarriagebed.com/sexuality/sexual-play/whats-okay-whats-not
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