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« on: December 18, 2002, 06:57:10 PM »

I have just arrived home from a meeting with my spiritual father and a date has been set for my entrance into the Orthodox Church. On January 3rd I shall be recieve the Holy Mystery of Repentance and after Vespers on January 4th I shall be Chrismated and Communed.  I have chosen to take the name of Saint Nektarios (about 99% sure...oddly enough this has been the hard part for me!  there are so many AWESOME Orthodox Saints).  Needless to say I am very joyous to be entering the Church of the Apostles established by the Lord Himself.  If you could spare a few prayers for me, I'd greatly appreciate it - thanks!

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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2002, 07:18:52 PM »

Wonderful news Derek. You will be in my prayers. Do I remember correctly that you are a former Catholic and will be received by confession, chrismation and communion? I too am a former Catholic but have been told that I will have to be baptized as well.

God bless you, I share in your joy

Brigid
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2002, 08:39:08 PM »

Is it that the Churches in the USA are not receiving former catholics who had been propperly confirmed in the Roman Church, through confession, profession of faith, and communion anymore?

I was told that in the case of young people, they are generally chrismated because now the Roman Church doesn't administrate chrismation to babies, so, many young catholics have not been chrismated. But I thought that those who  had received chrismation there, in some cases, were not re-chrismated.

The problem is that re-chrismation or re-baptism would imply that former Roman catholics, or an Armenian Orthodox, are the same that anglicas or members of protestant sects (who were generaly receioved through baptism) or that these protestant sects are as "close" to orthodoxy as Catholicism or Oriental orthodoxy.

I thought that only the ROCOR and some conservative groups used to re-baptize catholics, or maybe in some parts of Greece. But this may change in some jurisdictions

Could you tell me some experiences?

Do u know how are the ways sed by the jurisdictions in the USA to receive converts? Is it that most jurisdictions in USA now re-baptize?Huh

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jude
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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2002, 08:58:19 PM »

Last year a local Methodist family converted to Orthodoxy and the priest--GOA--received them by Holy Chrismation.

(Many Years, Nektarios!)

Jude
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2002, 09:36:26 PM »

Quote
Do I remember correctly that you are a former Catholic and will be received by confession, chrismation and communion? I too am a former Catholic but have been told that I will have to be baptized as well.

Yes I am a former Roman Catholic who will be recieved with confession, chrismation and communion.  Not because my priest thinks Latins are a "true" Church or any such novel idea, but because that mode of reception infuses grace into my RC baptism.
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2002, 09:47:25 PM »

Re: Remie's post

I was never confirmed as a Roman Catholic so chrismation is a must for me.  Also the Latins have changed and morphed a geat deal since Vatican II rejecting many of her traditional teachings...I think the old idea of the various Western Christians being closer to eachother than Orthodoxy is very true.  RCCs reject the very core of Orthodoxy by believeing in created grace.  My biggest concern about not baptising protestant converts is that so many baptise in the name of Jesus only and not the Trinity.  

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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2002, 10:19:02 PM »

Re: Remie's post

My biggest concern about not baptising protestant converts is that so many baptise in the name of Jesus only and not the Trinity.  
<big snip>

This is not the only concern that I have regarding the baptism of Protestant converts.  I have been invited by friends to witness Protestant baptisms and have found no two exactly alike (many ministers do their own thing), even within the same denomination.  In addition to those who baptize solely in the name of Jesus, there are now those who baptize "In the name of the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier" rather than in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  I have also noticed that in some of the Reformist denominations there is a strong tendency towards absolute minimalism in form, e.g., the minister only dips his thumb in water once and applies it to the baby's forehead (no pouring, sprinkling or infusion).

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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2002, 11:05:35 PM »

Re: Remie's post

My biggest concern about not baptising protestant converts is that so many baptise in the name of Jesus only and not the Trinity.  
<big snip>

This is not the only concern that I have regarding the baptism of Protestant converts.  I have been invited by friends to witness Protestant baptisms and have found no two exactly alike (many ministers do their own thing), even within the same denomination.  In addition to those who baptize solely in the name of Jesus, there are now those who baptize "In the name of the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier" rather than in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  I have also noticed that in some of the Reformist denominations there is a strong tendency towards absolute minimalism in form, e.g., the minister only dips his thumb in water once and applies it to the baby's forehead (no pouring, sprinkling or infusion).

Hypo-Ortho

Hypo-Ortho,

It is quite surprising the varience in Protestant baptisms!  I was baptised in a Baptist church by immersion in the name of the Trinity.  I am sure there are many out there who are not.  In my essentially worthless opinion I think that we should dictate a policy regarding Protestant converts, but rather leave it to the local priest and/or bishop to decide what is lacking.
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2002, 12:07:10 AM »

God bless you Derek.  As a former RC I also welcome you into the Orthodox Faith.  What a wonderful spiritual life you have to look forward to.  You will be in my prayers. Smiley

In Christ,

JoeS

I have just arrived home from a meeting with my spiritual father and a date has been set for my entrance into the Orthodox Church. On January 3rd I shall be recieve the Holy Mystery of Repentance and after Vespers on January 4th I shall be Chrismated and Communed.  I have chosen to take the name of Saint Nektarios (about 99% sure...oddly enough this has been the hard part for me!  there are so many AWESOME Orthodox Saints).  Needless to say I am very joyous to be entering the Church of the Apostles established by the Lord Himself.  If you could spare a few prayers for me, I'd greatly appreciate it - thanks!

 
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2002, 12:53:16 AM »

Dear Friends,

A lot of what you find online about the reception of converts is just plain silly, especially the junk you find coming from the otherwise good site http://www.orthodoxinfo.com .  Mr. Barnes there attacks Professor John Erickson, who is an expert of canon law, as if he has the same level of understanding, experience (Prof. Erickson is I believe the chief canonist for the OCA), and aptitute that Professor Erickson has.  Barnes attempts to make Erickson look like a liberal "ecumenist" but in his attempt(s) only makes himself look silly to those who know about this issue, because he oversimplifies.  Enough of my ramblings; here are some pertinent articles.

This online article deals with Roman Catholics being received into Orthodoxy:
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/Dragas_RomanCatholic.html

There are references in the bibliography at the end of the article that include two articles that are in print.  You can probably get them via interlibrary loan or by the ATLA religion database (see if your library subscribes to "ATLA Serials"; the first is:

ERICKSON John +ù., "The Reception of +¥on-Orthodox into the Orthodox Church: Contemporary Practice," Saint Vladimir's Theological Quarterly, 41 (1997) 1-17.

and the second is:

PETER Bishop (L'Huillier), "The Reception of Roman Catholics into Orthodoxy: Historical Variations and Norms," Saint Vladimir's Theological Quarterly, 24:2 (1980) 75-82.

Basically we have the following issues that modern Orthodox get confounded:

1) The issue of whether a baptism outside of Orthodoxy "has grace."

2) The issue of whether reception via economia equals a de facto acceptance of grace outside Orthodoxy.

3) The historical divergence between "Russian" and "Greek" practice.

4) The *distinction* between "chrismation" and "annointing with chrism"

5) The issue of whether chrismation was ever practiced apart from baptism (the Greek practice of "chrismation" for Latins and apostates was really an anointing with chrism; the prayers were different and usually the whole body was not anointed)

6) The issue of how the OCA until 1989 used "anointing with chrism" then switched to "chrismation" for both Catholics and Protestants, which Erickson argues should be reversed, and which is not followed in practice as most Eastern Catholics are received by either "confession and communion" or "anointing with chrism but not chrismation."

7) The issue of whether aspersion (pouring/sprinkiling) affects the "validity" of a baptism in the first place.

Cool The issue of whether the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Church of Greece actually *innovated* by introducing (re)baptism of Catholics.

As you all can see, it can't be reduced to such a simple question.  I suggest you all read the three articles above (I have them all) before you come to any conclusions.  My heartfelt plea, however, is PLEASE do not come to any conclusions solely by having recourse to orthodoxinfo.com!

In Christ,

anastasios
« Last Edit: December 19, 2002, 12:54:20 AM by anastasios » Logged

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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2002, 01:31:27 AM »

Anastasios, brother in Christ:

With all due respect for Prof. Erickson and OCA Archbishop PETER of New York, I think we need to do the Orthodox conciliar thing and hear from some canonists other than Erickson and the good archbishop on the matter of reception of converts.  It would be nice to get the opinions of those at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology, Brookline, MA; St. Tikhon's Seminary, So. Canaan, PA, and Christ the Saviour Seminary (ACROD), Johnstown, PA, as well as from Holy Trinity Seminary (ROCOR), Jordanville, NY, for a learned consensus.  I would also welcome input from the Serbian and Antiochian canonists as well as from the Patriarchal Bulgarians and from the MP.  While Erickson and Abp. PETER are respected canonists and scholars, we have no "Pope" in Orthodoxy (other than the Greek Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa, of course.  Grin ).

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Economan
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« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2002, 02:31:12 AM »

While I obviously won't deny the apostasy in the Mainline Protestant denominations, and the fact that there are too many dissenters in the American Roman Catholic Church, the fact remains that most converts from those traditions will have a valid, typical Western Baptism, pouring with the invocation of the Trinity. I have even been to an Episcopal Easter Vigil once, where a female priest(ess) baptised several adult converts just the same way adult converts were baptised with the 1928 BCP in the golden days of the 1950s.

While I most certianly will not deny the heretical effects of feminist theology in the West, I still maintain that the overwhelming majority of converts to Orthodoxy from Mainline Protestantism and Roman
Catholicism have nothing wrong with their baptisms.

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« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2002, 04:08:22 AM »

Thank you for the explanation. It caught my atention the fact that there are heretics who have commited graver errors than the Latins  and whose baptisms were regarded as valid.

http://www.ocados.org/dawn/rebaptism.htm

I take this setting from this article:

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Publications/TOC/1999/Reception-into-the-Orthodox-Church.html

"The acceptance into the Church should correspond to the reality. What was the individual before? What was his faith and churchly life? Did he consider himself a sinner? Did he believe with his priest and with others in the real transformation of the Holy Gifts? Did he believe in the apostolic laying on of hands? Was and is this laying on of hands, as such, historical? Was the baptism in the name of the Holy Trinity and was water used?"

So what about the protestants, for example, in addition of the denial of eucharist and of grace in baptism, some of them hold a wrapped view of the Trinitystating that the son is not equal to the Father, or that the Holy Spirit is inferior to them (or part of them)?



However history shows that when orthodox and latins are having problems (the invention of Constantinople, the melkite schism, etc) the most close-minded attitudes prevail in orthodoxy (about baptisms), in Russia, the unfortunate acts of proselitism by charismatic pseudo-catholics has caused a serious rupture that could be reflected through re-baptism of latins in the future.

Yes, it would be very interesting to see what Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, and other Orthodox use to do in this case. I doubt that they receive a Latin with something less than chrismation (and specially now when most young catholics have never been chrismated)

I totally agree with the article, Latin practices about this have not been consistent, specially after Vatican II and recently. In many places, now catholic bishops refuse to administrate chrismation to babies! (so most young people have to ask for that sacrament when they have to get married). In the modern times, when only a few minority of young catholics who wish to enter the Orthodox Church, the general practice would probably be chrismation (the OCA for example).

And about re-baptism, it is also interesting that the Latin Church did rebaptize Orthodox. This is the case of the thpousands of Serbs who were received through Baptism and Chrismation, under the "pastoral care" of Bishop Stepinac, in Croatia.

About Protestants who are received in the Latin Church, it is also interesting that those who follow pre-Vatican II Latin tradition and the old mass, receive protestants by conditional bapstism in some cases.

What is sad is that sometimes the way of reception of converts has been used by both Churches to degradate each other (the rebaptism of serbs in Croatia for example, or the events in Albania with Stepan Drusan)

Other articles:

http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/tikhon.lit10.html

http://catedrala-dornaromania.virtualave.net/bala-www/baptism.html

And this one:

http://aggreen.net/guidelines/guide03.html

which is interesting because puts Roman Catholics and "some protestants" in the same place (no matter if protestants do not believe many things and are in graver errors than Roman Catholics): are to be received through chrismation. I suppose it is because the OCA is settled in a nation which is primarily Protestant (could this have smg to do?)

While the non-chalcedonians through confession
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« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2002, 05:04:53 AM »

When I was received into Orthodoxy (OCA) from Catholicism I was told that the annointing with Chrism filled in with Grace that which may have been lacking in my Catholic (Byzantine) baptism and Chrismation.  

But, you guys are right there sure is a divergence of opinions out there on the correct procedure.  In my case when Father approached the Bishop about whether or not I should be baptized His Grace said "absolutely not!"  And that was it Grin

"If you are not for organized religion than be Orthodox" Smiley
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2002, 09:58:09 AM »

When I was received into Orthodoxy (OCA) from Catholicism I was told that the annointing with Chrism filled in with Grace that which may have been lacking in my Catholic (Byzantine) baptism and Chrismation.  

But, you guys are right there sure is a divergence of opinions out there on the correct procedure.  In my case when Father approached the Bishop about whether or not I should be baptized His Grace said "absolutely not!"  And that was it Grin

"If you are not for organized religion than be Orthodox" Smiley

AlaskanOrthodox, since you were received into the Orthodox Church by simple anointing with Chrism and *not* by the Mystery of Chrismation, you are in an excellent position (by personal experience) to explain to us the difference between these two rites, which I had always thought were one and the same.  I now realize that the reception that I witnessed of a former Roman Catholic into the Orthodox Church recently by simple profession of Faith and anointing with Chrism (on the forehead only), followed by Communion, at the local GOA cathedral was *not* Chrismation either.

When my family and I were received into Holy Orthodoxy (OCA) from the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Unia, it was with the "full" Chrismation, a full recanting of our Roman errors a la Hapgood, in addition to Profession of Faith, Confession and Communion.  This was more than 25 years ago.  I wonder why the difference in our case (unless the priest who received us couldn't distinguish between BC's and RC's)--Looking back, I now think we should have been received either by Profession of Faith, Confession and Communion alone, or possibly with the addition of the simple Anointing with Chrism.

Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2002, 01:45:17 PM »

When my family and I were received into the OCA from Roman Catholicism, we were chrismated after reciting the Creed the previous day. We did not have to recant Roman errors.

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« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2002, 02:44:15 PM »

Dear Hypo:

Yes, the annointing with Chrism is one way of reconciling or filling in Sacraments that may be lacking Grace; So in my case I had already received baptism and Chrismation in the Ruthenian Church.  The bishop made the judgement that they performed validly all that was needed was to reconcile me through life's confession and annointing with the Holy Chrism.  I did not have to renounce anything because I explained to the priest that as a Byzantine Catholic I believed the same as the Orthodox ( And I did, never did our Byzantine priest teach us about Roman doctrines; we only learned the Faith in the Eastern manner) and the bishop accepted that. Those who have received the Sacraments in a Byzantine Catholic Church, it was explained to me, should not have them repeated, but only reconciled with Confession and the annointing of the Chrism.  The Orthodox Church determines the manner of reception by how close the previous Church of the convert was to Orthodoxy.  There is a hierarchial principle here.  And as a Byzantine I was at the top of the list.  My Church was the closest to Orthodoxy so I was received without having to be re-baptized or re-Chrismated.  Just confession and annointing. This should be the standard principle for Byzantine Catholics, but because of anti-Uniate propoganda and historical hatreds, some Greek Catholics had to be Baptized and receive the whole lot over again; which was and is a grave abuse.  For the Ruthenians some priests just Confess them and some just register them (some ACROD priests would do this).  But again there is no consensus; although some bishops like HG+Tikhon of the OCA are good about protocol and having one standard for his Diocese for the reception of Converts.

Hope that helps.
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« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2002, 02:52:53 PM »

Oh and in regard to the rite; it really isn't different than that of Chrismation; I was still annointed on all my senses and the words "The Seal of the Gift of the Holy Spirit." were still said - the difference being that the intention was not to re-Chrismate, but to reconcile me to the Church.  It was an annointing of reconcilation not reception of the Holy Spirit as in Chrismation since I had already received that through the ministry of the Ruthenian priest.  In Orthodoxy the Chrism has many usages besides Chrismation; it contains immense supernatural power so through the Chrism it is as if the bishop himself were to lay hands on you and claim you for Orthodoxy;  It unites you to One Holy Orthodox Church throughout the world.
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« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2002, 03:49:44 PM »

St Nicholas Day 2002

Quote
the fact remains that most converts from those traditions will have a valid, typical Western Baptism

And such is a western Catholic view of same.

I don't like rebaptism or rechrismation either but admit that is an opinion based on the Catholic understanding of the sacraments. Catholics find the Orthodox practice hurtful, but I understand the Orthodox' logic behind all this. As Jennifer wrote elsewhere, there is a logic to only recognizing sacraments in the Church - easier than speculating about grace and sacraments outside it. Concentrating on the unity of the Church is a lot healthier than playing games with 'lines of succession', silliness one can blame on the otherwise charitable Western understanding of sacraments.
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« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2002, 06:56:05 PM »

"The Orthodox Church determines the manner of reception by how close the previous Church of the convert was to Orthodoxy. "

I wonder why some Orthodox think that the Anglican protestants with their priestesses and their false doctrines are as close to Orthodoxy as is Roman catholicism.
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