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Author Topic: Would the 1000 years Orthodox Western Ancestors be scared with Protestantism  (Read 847 times) Average Rating: 0
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pasadi97
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« on: July 30, 2011, 02:05:33 PM »

I think they would be.

They would not find Holy Communion for eternal life.
They would not find icons.
They would not find prayers for departed.
They would not find confession.
They would not find miracles , prayers to intercession for saints, and much more however they will find foreign things like Sola Scriptura, and other Sola.
They would find maybe 30 000 conflicting truths instead of ONE TRUTH.

They would care less that this was the result of some people thinmking as long as Apostles were taught by Jesus the faith they did know.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 02:07:25 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
Ebor
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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2011, 03:10:20 PM »

How much do you personally know about any particular Protestant denomination, please?  Did you have a particular Church in mind?

As to your statements: I will not address your personal opinion on another Church's Eucharist.  However, in the Anglican Communion we certainly do have prayers for the departed, confession, invocation of the saints and we're not "sola scriptura".  How do you define "miracles" that you are sure that there are none in any other Church, please?  C.S. Lewis wrote of a miracle of healing when his wife was dying of bone cancer and was anointed by an Anglican priest. 

Icons were not part of Western Christianity a thousand years ago as far as I have read, however, I have seen some in Anglican churches in the present day.

Finally, your statement that there are "30,000" truths is neither accurate nor fair.  I asked you in another thread where you got that number. Would you please give that information?  There are threads on the forum where that is addressed.

With respect,

Ebor
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pasadi97
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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2011, 03:13:08 PM »

How many denominations would be a fair number? I can find where I took that number from however if you have more info please let me know.

I read some rebuttals of that number. i am sorry about that.

However here may be a better map of denominations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 03:20:12 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2011, 03:15:27 PM »

I think they would be.

They would not find Holy Communion for eternal life.
They would not find icons.
They would not find prayers for departed.
They would not find confession.
They would not find miracles , prayers to intercession for saints, and much more however they will find foreign things like Sola Scriptura, and other Sola.
They would find maybe 30 000 conflicting truths instead of ONE TRUTH.

They would care less that this was the result of some people thinmking as long as Apostles were taught by Jesus the faith they did know.
They could have found any and all of the above in the first 1000 years.  The Protestants didn't invent heresy.  That trail had been blazed long ago in the time of the Apostles.
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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2011, 03:18:36 PM »

How many denominations would be a fair number? I can find where I took that number from however if you have more info please let me know.

If you would please find where you got that number, I would appreciate it.  I suspect that I know the trail, but I do not wish to make an assumption unfairly.  

As to the question of the denominations, the basis would depend on where your number comes from.  However, the 30,000 is excessive.

Thank you in advance for finding your source.

Ebor
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 03:18:56 PM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2011, 08:38:42 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I think they would be.

They would not find Holy Communion for eternal life.
They would not find icons.
They would not find prayers for departed.
They would not find confession.
They would not find miracles , prayers to intercession for saints, and much more however they will find foreign things like Sola Scriptura, and other Sola.
They would find maybe 30 000 conflicting truths instead of ONE TRUTH.

They would care less that this was the result of some people thinmking as long as Apostles were taught by Jesus the faith they did know.

Are you familiar with the Waldensians, or the Arnoldists? These folks were even militant like fundamentalist jihadist or radical right-wing militias in the US South, killing clergy and seizing property.  This was not to say that every one of these folks were violent, but violence was carried out in their names and by some of their membership and sympathizers. They were then not just some kind theological challenge to Rome, in some rural areas they represented an existential threat to the Church.  While the militancy of these movements was not the same ethos as the Protestants of the Reformation era, they were directly inspired by the history of these militantly anti-Catholic heresy movements of the 13th-16th centuries in France, Italy, Germany and even Spain.  Its also why the secular arm of the Inquisition was so cruel in its punishments of heresies because it feared that the newer Protestant movements of  the 16th century would turn militant and violent like the earlier versions.  There is some truth to this by the way, look at the Hundred Years War experience, not exactly pacifism Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2011, 11:15:01 AM »

Quote
How many denominations would be a fair number?
I think that it could be a fair number more actually. I know here in the US, "Baptist" or "Penecostal" has about the same gravity as saying "white guy" or "Texan". I've seen more than a few who share the same denomination argue about a very basic thing, such as Presbyterians sprinkling or dunking for Baptism and stating that the other is not legitimate. Or Charismatics saying that if you dont speak in tongues you're going to hell OR saying that it is just evidence of the Spirit. Although these differences are not an "official" denomination per se, these divisons are enough to keep these people separate with no hope of union. So I would say "unofficial" denominations could list in the hundreds of thousands.

As far as official denominations, the World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford Press and authored by David Barrett states in 2001, there were 33,820 distinct denominations of Christianity in the world, with 5 new denominations appearing, on average, per week. The definition they use for "Denomination" is as follows:

"an organized Christian Church or tradition or religious group or community of believers or aggregate of worship centers or congregations, usually within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same name in different areas, regarding themselves as an autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions."

Hope this helps


PP
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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2011, 12:24:02 PM »

Quote
How many denominations would be a fair number?
I think that it could be a fair number more actually. I know here in the US, "Baptist" or "Penecostal" has about the same gravity as saying "white guy" or "Texan". I've seen more than a few who share the same denomination argue about a very basic thing, such as Presbyterians sprinkling or dunking for Baptism and stating that the other is not legitimate. Or Charismatics saying that if you dont speak in tongues you're going to hell OR saying that it is just evidence of the Spirit. Although these differences are not an "official" denomination per se, these divisons are enough to keep these people separate with no hope of union. So I would say "unofficial" denominations could list in the hundreds of thousands.

As far as official denominations, the World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford Press and authored by David Barrett states in 2001, there were 33,820 distinct denominations of Christianity in the world, with 5 new denominations appearing, on average, per week. The definition they use for "Denomination" is as follows:

"an organized Christian Church or tradition or religious group or community of believers or aggregate of worship centers or congregations, usually within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same name in different areas, regarding themselves as an autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions."

Hope this helps


PP
One problem with that definition of denomination, however, as Ebor and Keble will gladly point out, is that the Orthodox Church in America, the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church, and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese would technically count as different denominations.
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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2011, 12:48:19 PM »

Quote
One problem with that definition of denomination, however, as Ebor and Keble will gladly point out, is that the Orthodox Church in America, the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church, and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese would technically count as different denominations.

I completely agree with you on that point but I also think that the number that the book represents is probably pretty accurate. if you ask 5 different baptists that all go to different churches, most of them (meh, probably 4/5) would have some theological differences that, if they were Orthodox, would probably lead to some serious trouble.

PP
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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2011, 01:26:12 PM »

Quote
How many denominations would be a fair number?
I think that it could be a fair number more actually. I know here in the US, "Baptist" or "Penecostal" has about the same gravity as saying "white guy" or "Texan". I've seen more than a few who share the same denomination argue about a very basic thing, such as Presbyterians sprinkling or dunking for Baptism and stating that the other is not legitimate. Or Charismatics saying that if you dont speak in tongues you're going to hell OR saying that it is just evidence of the Spirit. Although these differences are not an "official" denomination per se, these divisons are enough to keep these people separate with no hope of union. So I would say "unofficial" denominations could list in the hundreds of thousands.

As far as official denominations, the World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford Press and authored by David Barrett states in 2001, there were 33,820 distinct denominations of Christianity in the world, with 5 new denominations appearing, on average, per week. The definition they use for "Denomination" is as follows:

"an organized Christian Church or tradition or religious group or community of believers or aggregate of worship centers or congregations, usually within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same name in different areas, regarding themselves as an autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions."

Hope this helps


PP
One problem with that definition of denomination, however, as Ebor and Keble will gladly point out, is that the Orthodox Church in America, the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church, and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese would technically count as different denominations.
somewhere we have a thread where that, rightly, was disputed.
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2011, 01:43:36 PM »

Quote
How many denominations would be a fair number?
I think that it could be a fair number more actually. I know here in the US, "Baptist" or "Penecostal" has about the same gravity as saying "white guy" or "Texan". I've seen more than a few who share the same denomination argue about a very basic thing, such as Presbyterians sprinkling or dunking for Baptism and stating that the other is not legitimate. Or Charismatics saying that if you dont speak in tongues you're going to hell OR saying that it is just evidence of the Spirit. Although these differences are not an "official" denomination per se, these divisons are enough to keep these people separate with no hope of union. So I would say "unofficial" denominations could list in the hundreds of thousands.

As far as official denominations, the World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford Press and authored by David Barrett states in 2001, there were 33,820 distinct denominations of Christianity in the world, with 5 new denominations appearing, on average, per week. The definition they use for "Denomination" is as follows:

"an organized Christian Church or tradition or religious group or community of believers or aggregate of worship centers or congregations, usually within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same name in different areas, regarding themselves as an autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions."

Hope this helps


PP
One problem with that definition of denomination, however, as Ebor and Keble will gladly point out, is that the Orthodox Church in America, the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church, and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese would technically count as different denominations.
somewhere we have a thread where that, rightly, was disputed.
Yes, indeed! I just presented that analogy as a way of showing how questionable David Barnett's definition of "denomination" may be and how we should therefore take "30,000+ denominations" with a large grain of salt.
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2011, 06:24:17 PM »

How many denominations would be a fair number? I can find where I took that number from however if you have more info please let me know.

I read some rebuttals of that number. i am sorry about that.

However here may be a better map of denominations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

Thank you for your reply.  I've seen diagrams like that before and the list below it. However, it shows the various branchings and dividings rather than any numbers.  May I ask what rebuttals you read and were they threads here or elsewhere? 

It would also not be the case that there would be X number of "truths" since by the numbers that I suspect your original figure was drawn from, many of the Churches and groups were separated by geography and not belief or dogma.

With respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2011, 06:30:33 PM »

Quote
How many denominations would be a fair number?
I think that it could be a fair number more actually. I know here in the US, "Baptist" or "Penecostal" has about the same gravity as saying "white guy" or "Texan". I've seen more than a few who share the same denomination argue about a very basic thing, such as Presbyterians sprinkling or dunking for Baptism and stating that the other is not legitimate. Or Charismatics saying that if you dont speak in tongues you're going to hell OR saying that it is just evidence of the Spirit. Although these differences are not an "official" denomination per se, these divisons are enough to keep these people separate with no hope of union. So I would say "unofficial" denominations could list in the hundreds of thousands.

As far as official denominations, the World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford Press and authored by David Barrett states in 2001, there were 33,820 distinct denominations of Christianity in the world, with 5 new denominations appearing, on average, per week. The definition they use for "Denomination" is as follows:

"an organized Christian Church or tradition or religious group or community of believers or aggregate of worship centers or congregations, usually within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same name in different areas, regarding themselves as an autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions."

Hope this helps


PP
One problem with that definition of denomination, however, as Ebor and Keble will gladly point out, is that the Orthodox Church in America, the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church, and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese would technically count as different denominations.

And that that is the way that Barrett did his count of each Church and Jurisdiction etc. 

So if one wishes to use the Barrett numbers to put down another group because of that definition, but not accept that ones own Church/Jurisdiction is also on the list counted the same way, how is that using the source correctly or truthfully?

Meaning no offense to you, I assure you, Peter and I apologize for any.

Ebor
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2011, 06:56:20 PM »

Quote
How many denominations would be a fair number?
I think that it could be a fair number more actually. I know here in the US, "Baptist" or "Penecostal" has about the same gravity as saying "white guy" or "Texan". I've seen more than a few who share the same denomination argue about a very basic thing, such as Presbyterians sprinkling or dunking for Baptism and stating that the other is not legitimate. Or Charismatics saying that if you dont speak in tongues you're going to hell OR saying that it is just evidence of the Spirit. Although these differences are not an "official" denomination per se, these divisons are enough to keep these people separate with no hope of union. So I would say "unofficial" denominations could list in the hundreds of thousands.

As far as official denominations, the World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford Press and authored by David Barrett states in 2001, there were 33,820 distinct denominations of Christianity in the world, with 5 new denominations appearing, on average, per week. The definition they use for "Denomination" is as follows:

"an organized Christian Church or tradition or religious group or community of believers or aggregate of worship centers or congregations, usually within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same name in different areas, regarding themselves as an autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions."

Hope this helps


PP
One problem with that definition of denomination, however, as Ebor and Keble will gladly point out, is that the Orthodox Church in America, the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church, and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese would technically count as different denominations.

And that that is the way that Barrett did his count of each Church and Jurisdiction etc. 

So if one wishes to use the Barrett numbers to put down another group because of that definition, but not accept that ones own Church/Jurisdiction is also on the list counted the same way, how is that using the source correctly or truthfully?

Meaning no offense to you, I assure you, Peter and I apologize for any.

Ebor

No offense taken. Smiley I actually appreciate you supporting my observation.
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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2011, 07:14:40 PM »

 Smiley
I am happy to be of help.

Have you ever read "Pilgrim's Regress" by C. S. Lewis? It is a very early work after he became a Christian. There is a section in it that I have found very helpful to remember.  This is an allegory, so in one scene a giant "the Spirit of the Age" is challenged by Reason who asks him three riddles.  The second one is

"There was a certain man who was going to his own house and his enemy went with him.  And his house was beyond a river too swift to swim and too deep to wade. And he could go no faster than his enemy.  While he was on his journey his wife sent to him and said, "You know that there is only one bridge across the river: tell me, shall I destroy it that the enemy may not cross; or shall I leave it standing that you may cross? What should this man do?" 

 Wink

Ebor
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