Author Topic: Craziest things atheists/non-believers have said about the Christian faith.  (Read 11070 times)

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Offline celticfan1888

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enemy attestation whom?

eyewitness acounts whom?

conversions to Christianity whom?

There's more evidence for him existing than not existing.
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Offline Kasatkin fan

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



Quite a bit. Many of the Apocrypha mention him, often focusing on him.

If you're making the common secular demand for non-religious works that speak of him (I believe Josephus mentions him), you should realize that you're asking for, he was a religious figure and everything speaking of him is going to have that tinge.

It would be like asking for evidence of Octavius from non-political writings, or Julius Caesar from non-military-political sources. I doubt you'll find many non-religious sources that mention Mohammed either.

In fact for the first two of those very important historical figures, the amount of evidence for their existence is far less than for Christ (I have no idea about Mohammed, I'd assume about the same), so if you want to take the position that there is no acceptable evidence that Jesus ever lived, you must of necessity doubt the existence of every historical figure before 1500, and many after.

Offline lost

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



Quite a bit. Many of the Apocrypha mention him, often focusing on him.

If you're making the common secular demand for non-religious works that speak of him (I believe Josephus mentions him), you should realize that you're asking for, he was a religious figure and everything speaking of him is going to have that tinge.

It would be like asking for evidence of Octavius from non-political writings, or Julius Caesar from non-military-political sources. I doubt you'll find many non-religious sources that mention Mohammed either.

In fact for the first two of those very important historical figures, the amount of evidence for their existence is far less than for Christ (I have no idea about Mohammed, I'd assume about the same), so if you want to take the position that there is no acceptable evidence that Jesus ever lived, you must of necessity doubt the existence of every historical figure before 1500, and many after.

religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...

Mohammed afaik has more historical validity than Jesus.He was an historic figure, involved in military campaigns.

Offline Shiny

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Josephus was Jewish...
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Offline Irish Hermit

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religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...


Here is a Wiki site which will get you started with investigating the historical evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Offline Shiny

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religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...


Here is a Wiki site which will get you started with investigating the historical evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Father if I may add, certain saints like Jerome placed their own misguided pride over the judgment of the Church which in turn would cause a think tank like the Jesus Seminar to come. What I mean by this instead of looking to the LXX for the OT which was approved by the Church, Hebrews, etc to create the Vulgate he instead looked to the Jews of his day for assistance, like the Masoretic text.. So consequently because of his poor scholarship, it's as if the Church couldn't be trusted for one man's voice superseded that of the Church. And of course certain other figures were just adding more fuel to the fire to further create a schism between both western and eastern churches culminating to the Great Schism.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?


Have you considered that the New Testament is 27 separate documents that were only later accumulated into one text?

Because many odd people today consider "the Bible" to constitute a single ancient source.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 04:13:39 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline Volnutt

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



Quite a bit. Many of the Apocrypha mention him, often focusing on him.

If you're making the common secular demand for non-religious works that speak of him (I believe Josephus mentions him), you should realize that you're asking for, he was a religious figure and everything speaking of him is going to have that tinge.

It would be like asking for evidence of Octavius from non-political writings, or Julius Caesar from non-military-political sources. I doubt you'll find many non-religious sources that mention Mohammed either.

In fact for the first two of those very important historical figures, the amount of evidence for their existence is far less than for Christ (I have no idea about Mohammed, I'd assume about the same), so if you want to take the position that there is no acceptable evidence that Jesus ever lived, you must of necessity doubt the existence of every historical figure before 1500, and many after.

religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...

Mohammed afaik has more historical validity than Jesus.He was an historic figure, involved in military campaigns.
Josephus was Jewish and is considered a trustworthy source for events of his own lifetime such as those of Jesus' life. Real historians don't discount an entire source because it's "religious."


As for secular sources, Tacitus and possibly Suetonius both mention Jesus. Lucian also. Hardly sympathetic sources. Also significant is the fact that no early sceptic (Trypho, Celsus, Porphyry, etc.) was using the argument that Jesus never existed, otherwise the Christian apologetic literature would certainly reflect a rebuttal.

Then there is the Jewish Talmud, a hostile source, which again contains a denigrating treatment of Jesus but not a denial of his existence.

Offline Volnutt

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religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...


Here is a Wiki site which will get you started with investigating the historical evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Father if I may add, certain saints like Jerome placed their own misguided pride over the judgment of the Church which in turn would cause a think tank like the Jesus Seminar to come. What I mean by this instead of looking to the LXX for the OT which was approved by the Church, Hebrews, etc to create the Vulgate he instead looked to the Jews of his day for assistance, like the Masoretic text.. So consequently because of his poor scholarship, it's as if the Church couldn't be trusted for one man's voice superseded that of the Church. And of course certain other figures were just adding more fuel to the fire to further create a schism between both western and eastern churches culminating to the Great Schism.
That's going a little too far imo. Yes, the Masoretic (which comes centuries after St. Jerome, though I'm guessing you mean its text family) is inferior but it's not so terrible as to throw the entire Church into doubt.

And AFAIK the Jesus Seminar paid little attention to manuscripts, mostly relying on the RSV, which many Orthodox teachers use.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 09:49:26 AM by Volnutt »

Offline Justin Kissel

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enemy attestation whom?

eyewitness acounts whom?

conversions to Christianity whom?

You're not going to find much, because there wasn't much, until far too late afterwards...

Offline lost

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religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...


Here is a Wiki site which will get you started with investigating the historical evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

from your link : There are Greco-Roman pagan passages relevant to Christianity in the works of three major non-Christian writers of the late 1st and early 2nd centuries – Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger. However, these are generally references to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus. Tacitus, in his Annals written c. 115, mentions Christus, without many historical details (see also: Tacitus on Jesus). There is an obscure reference to a Jewish leader called "Chrestus" in Suetonius. (According to Suetonius, chapter 25, there occurred in Rome, during the reign of emperor Claudius (c. AD 50), "persistent disturbances ... at the instigation of Chrestus".[66][67] Mention in Acts of "After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome."

Charles Guignebert (Professor of the History Of Christianity at the Sorbonne), while rejecting the Jesus Myth theory and feeling that the Epistles of Paul were sufficient to prove the historical existence of Jesus, said "all the pagan and Jewish testimonies, so-called, afford us no information of any value about the life of Jesus, nor even any assurance that he ever lived.

Offline vamrat

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There are not a whole bunch of historical forces for Jesus...if you throw out the Bible.  Now, for your homework, find some contemporary sources for Alexander the Great.  There are probably more sources about Jesus than there are for Alexander the Great if you accept sources written hundreds of years after the fact.

(And the only people who debate whether Alexander existed believe that Aliens built the pyramids, Atlantis was a real place, and wear their pants on their head...to hold the tinfoil in place.  I hold people who don't believe Jesus existed in about the same regard...)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 03:28:09 PM by vamrat »
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Offline Shiny

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There's more manuscripts of the NT than there are any other documents from antiquity.

If Christ never lived there would be no Church. Why would Jews be tortured and killed for something that was just a myth? And taken as a whole, Christianity must be the cruelest hoax ever invented if you subscribe that it was created.
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Offline celticfan1888

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And the only people who debate whether Alexander existed believe that Aliens built the pyramids...

They're space ships I tell ya!  ::)
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Why would Jews be tortured and killed for something that was just a myth?

People die for abstract ideas and concepts all the time. It's amazing how pliable people are.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?

It was blasphemy, and they weren't restricted by modern ideas of freedom and sensitivity and all that stuff.

Offline orthonorm

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Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?

It was blasphemy, and they weren't restricted by modern ideas of freedom and sensitivity and all that stuff.

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Offline Shiny

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Why would Jews be tortured and killed for something that was just a myth?

People die for abstract ideas and concepts all the time. It's amazing how pliable people are.
But realistically speaking would someone honestly be crucified, behaded, tortured, etc for just an abstract idea or concept? Wouldn't the very act of being exposed to being killed immediately put into question how much veracity is in the claim that Christ rose from the dead?

I'm trying to picture the hysteria whence upon seeing the Risen Christ.
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Offline Volnutt

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Charles Guignebert (Professor of the History Of Christianity at the Sorbonne), while rejecting the Jesus Myth theory and feeling that the Epistles of Paul were sufficient to prove the historical existence of Jesus, said "all the pagan and Jewish testimonies, so-called, afford us no information of any value about the life of Jesus, nor even any assurance that he ever lived.
I think he's smoking crack, but even if he's right, why don't agree with him re: Paul?

Offline JamesRottnek

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Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?

It was blasphemy, and they weren't restricted by modern ideas of freedom and sensitivity and all that stuff.

Belief in a symbolic person was blasphemy?  Wouldn't it also, then, be blasphemy to think of Moses seeing the backside of God, given that God has no body?
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?

It was blasphemy, and they weren't restricted by modern ideas of freedom and sensitivity and all that stuff.

Belief in a symbolic person was blasphemy?

Sure.

Quote
Wouldn't it also, then, be blasphemy to think of Moses seeing the backside of God, given that God has no body?

You'd think so, wouldn't ya? *shrugs* I can't explain people...

Offline NicholasMyra

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It appears Asteriktos wants to avoid easy, unsatisfactory answers.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline NicholasMyra

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And if you are healed, then as St. John Chrysostom says (paraphrased) it is to suffer more for the Glory of God. To much is given, much is asked, and all that.


Do any of our Patristicians have the homily (or whatever) where this comes from?

I got curious as to what St. John was commenting on. It's one of the best things he said, IMO.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline saint samuel

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"jesus killed people"
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Offline Peacemaker

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Atheists you say... I don't think I've met a real Atheist, seems like most people I meet who call themselves Atheist are in fact Anti-Theist.  :laugh:

Offline JamesR

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The conspiracy that Jesus the "Son of God" was influenced by the Aztec worship of the Sun--hence Sun/Son, and Jesus becoming the Sun/Son of God.

Ignoring the fact that the similarity between the words "Son" and "Sun" are purely coincidental and only apply in English and not in Hebrew or the native Aztec languages, I guess these people never learned in school that the West didn't even encounter the Aztecs until the 16th century, almost two millennium after Christianity had been established.

People need to stop listening to silly KRS-1 songs to get their information from.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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"jesus killed people"

Jesus was Hitler.

No kidding.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 07:57:38 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline dzheremi

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Jesus and Muhammad were basically the same since Jesus said he came not to bring peace but to bring a sword, so you can't criticize Muhammad/Islam unless you criticize Jesus too.

(That was said by a Muslim who was trying to argue that Christianity is wrong and Islam is right. When Muhammad and Jesus are "basically the same", and of course Islam teaches that Jesus preached essentially Islamic doctrine anyway. Hmmm.)

Offline minasoliman

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Offline Avdima

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"The eucharist was originally a psychedelic mushroom and Christ is actually a mushroom god."

Vladimir Lenin was a mushroom too.

Quote
Lenin was a mushroom was a televised hoax by musician Sergey Kuryokhin and reporter Sergey Sholokhov. It was first broadcast on 17 May 1991 on Leningrad Television. The hoax had the form of an interview.

In the interview Kuryokhin was telling about his findings that Vladimir Lenin used to consume a lot of psychedelic mushrooms and eventually turned into a mushroom himself. This absurd idea wasn't presented all at once; instead there was a resemblance of logical chain of reasonings, facts and quotations from various sources. An aura of plausibility was created using manipulation of facts, pseudo-scientific style and loose storytelling.

Quote
The timing of the hoax played a large role in its success. It was shown on TV in the Glasnost period when many censorship barriers fell and there were many revelations and publication of previously concealed facts from USSR history, often with sensational flavor. Additionally, Soviet TV had been very official and prim before. As a result, approximately 11,250,000 audience members took the hoax seriously, even despite the totally absurd claims. According to S. Sholokhov himself, in response to inquiries about the truth of the claims, the person responsible for ideology in a Regional Committee of the Communist Party stated that they were false, as "a mammal can not be a plant."

Offline Aquensis

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The conspiracy that Jesus the "Son of God" was influenced by the Aztec worship of the Sun--hence Sun/Son, and Jesus becoming the Sun/Son of God.

Ignoring the fact that the similarity between the words "Son" and "Sun" are purely coincidental and only apply in English and not in Hebrew or the native Aztec languages, I guess these people never learned in school that the West didn't even encounter the Aztecs until the 16th century, almost two millennium after Christianity had been established.

People need to stop listening to silly KRS-1 songs to get their information from.

You can also add the fact that the Aztecs didn't even exist 2000 years ago. Because you just know they're going to try and come up with some stuff about Aztecs sailing to the Levant.

Offline Iconodule

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"The eucharist was originally a psychedelic mushroom and Christ is actually a mushroom god."

Vladimir Lenin was a mushroom too.

Quote
Lenin was a mushroom was a televised hoax by musician Sergey Kuryokhin and reporter Sergey Sholokhov. It was first broadcast on 17 May 1991 on Leningrad Television. The hoax had the form of an interview.

In the interview Kuryokhin was telling about his findings that Vladimir Lenin used to consume a lot of psychedelic mushrooms and eventually turned into a mushroom himself. This absurd idea wasn't presented all at once; instead there was a resemblance of logical chain of reasonings, facts and quotations from various sources. An aura of plausibility was created using manipulation of facts, pseudo-scientific style and loose storytelling.

Quote
The timing of the hoax played a large role in its success. It was shown on TV in the Glasnost period when many censorship barriers fell and there were many revelations and publication of previously concealed facts from USSR history, often with sensational flavor. Additionally, Soviet TV had been very official and prim before. As a result, approximately 11,250,000 audience members took the hoax seriously, even despite the totally absurd claims. According to S. Sholokhov himself, in response to inquiries about the truth of the claims, the person responsible for ideology in a Regional Committee of the Communist Party stated that they were false, as "a mammal can not be a plant."

Why haven't I heard about this before? This is fantastic. Reminds me of this film:

« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 11:21:22 AM by Iconodule »

Offline Cyrillic

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"jesus killed people"

Jesus was Hitler.

No kidding.

It was probably related to this weird joke.

It's probably offensive, so click at your own responsibility. I've warned you.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 11:27:48 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Craziest things atheists/non-believers have said about the Christian faith.
« Reply #124 on: September 03, 2014, 01:04:54 AM »
St. Paul had epilepsy.  In fact, so did Jesus, and all his disciples.  It's the most rational explanation for all their behaviour.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Craziest things atheists/non-believers have said about the Christian faith.
« Reply #125 on: September 03, 2014, 01:07:19 AM »
Oh Velsigne, you really put the u in abnormal behaviour!

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Craziest things atheists/non-believers have said about the Christian faith.
« Reply #126 on: September 03, 2014, 01:08:52 AM »
Oh Velsigne, you really put the u in abnormal behaviour!

LOL  :P