Author Topic: Craziest things atheists/non-believers have said about the Christian faith.  (Read 9942 times)

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Offline Shiny

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I have come across a topic regarding the Christian God as having been derived as a Volcano god, and that the early Jewish belief was worshipping a volcano god. This theory is somehow support that Mt Sinai was a ground for active volcanos and the fire and smoke was actually from a volcano. And then loosely connected by phrases "lakes of fire, burnt sacrifices, fire, etc"

Pretty bizarre stuff, and laughable.

Anyone have any other stories?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline Justin Kissel

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I generally stick up for the poor ole atheists and non-believers, but if I hear one more of them say "Christianity is just like every other religion. It was invented to control the people" I'm going to scream.
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Shiny

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I generally stick up for the poor ole atheists and non-believers, but if I hear one more of them say "Christianity is just like every other religion. It was invented to control the people" I'm going to scream.

I was hoping you'd say Christianity was cut from the same cloth like Mithra, Dionysius, Horus and even bizarrely Buddha.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline akimori makoto

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My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline Shiny

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My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

Ah yes, and whenever somebody asserts that claim they aren't in the position to be taken seriously.

I'm glad Jesus Christ exists. If we look at it from a salvation standpoint here on Earth (as far as a belief in Christ stopping those from suicide, murder, etc) he's saved millions. What myth has that power? What myth has the power to overtake an empire solely on love? And on and on and on.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline akimori makoto

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My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

Ah yes, and whenever somebody asserts that claim they aren't in the position to be taken seriously.

Yeah, I stop listening as soon as they utter that inanity.

I'm glad Jesus Christ exists. If we look at it from a salvation standpoint here on Earth (as far as a belief in Christ stopping those from suicide, murder, etc) he's saved millions. What myth has that power? What myth has the power to overtake an empire solely on love? And on and on and on.

Well said.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

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"The eucharist was originally a psychedelic mushroom and Christ is actually a mushroom god."
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Offline biro

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"You know it's really paganism/Buddhism/something else in disguise, right?"

 ???

 :P
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline Shiny

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"The eucharist was originally a psychedelic mushroom and Christ is actually a mushroom god."
LOL no way.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline FrChris

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"Why do you worship a bloodthirsty zombie? Why not just go with Kali?"

I was asked this at a Greekfest in Birmingham, AL. She may have been kidding, teasing, or whatever....but I am not so sure of that, unfortunately.
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

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"The eucharist was originally a psychedelic mushroom and Christ is actually a mushroom god."
LOL no way.

Here's a book I saw on this topic (my brother was reading it): http://www.amazon.com/Mushrooms-Mankind-Impact-Consciousness-Religion/dp/1585091510/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312244745&sr=1-1

The book is so poorly written and researched that I was very surprised my brother (a very intelligent person) was reading it.

The owner of this Youtube channel also has videos putting forth this view... he claims he was a novice monk briefly at St. Anthony's in Arizona. Pray for him.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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"Why do you worship a bloodthirsty zombie? Why not just go with Kali?"

I was asked this at a Greekfest in Birmingham, AL. She may have been kidding, teasing, or whatever....but I am not so sure of that, unfortunately.

Well, the "zombie Jesus" is a popular thing nowadays.  :police: I believe the answer to her question, whether she was serious or not, is: "I do so because after the talking snake convinced the nude rib-woman to eat the magical fruit from a one of a kind tree, she and her hubby fell from grace and were thrown out of eden, and so my family has needed some divine help since then; zombie Jesus offered that help in the form of sacrificing himself to himself so that he wouldn't be angry with me anymore"  :P  ;D  (Just kidding... )
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Volnutt

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"Yahweh is just a bronze age tribal war god."

"Faith may not be able to move mountains, but look what it does to skyscrapers! (and various permutations)"

"If you grew up in Saudi Arabia/wherever, you'd probably be a Muslim/random non-Christian religion."

Everything that comes out of this guy's noise hole. http://theintelligentzone.blogspot.com/ My favorite, "Google maps can find anything. You can't find God on Google maps. Therefore, God does not exist."
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline biro

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Of course, the key lessons of that story are: never eat apples, and if you think snakes are talking to you, run. ;).
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline Shiny

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Everything that comes out of this guy's noise hole. http://theintelligentzone.blogspot.com/ My favorite, "Google maps can find anything. You can't find God on Google maps. Therefore, God does not exist."

I'm not sure what's more limiting, that Google maps only covers the Earth or his brain.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Volnutt

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Indeed lol. I really hope he's a troll, but he's been at it for so long...

Another one, "Proverbs 24:13 advises eating honey. Honey is bad for your teeth. Therefore the Bible is evil for contradicting good dental science."
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline Justin Kissel

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Sounds like the alternate universe (=opposite) version of this guy, who does a pretty good job pretending to be a fairly dull Christian fighting against atheists.
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline NicholasMyra

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"Semitic people", who all worshiped YHWH, and included the Egyptians, wiped out the original near-eastern Mother Goddess and installed patriarchy, theocracy, empire and "mean, war-prone" YHWH as God over all of the Near East and Mediterranean.

Yeah. People think that.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 09:55:00 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline Jason.Wike

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Every permutation of "Christianity was only spread by the sword." When you mention that sub-Roman Britain seems to have totally converted over night to Christianity all they can ever say "You're wrong idiot." When you mention Ireland which willingly converted, same thing. When you mention Scotland, same...
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 10:56:31 PM by Jason.Wike »

Offline IsmiLiora

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^ Word. My Ottoman professor always ****-talked Christianity, the Crusades, and modern evangelical Christianity all the time, stressing how Muslims, when they were ruling way back when, were much more tolerant. I wrote a paper on the devshirme/janissary system and he just wrote "NO NO NO NO NO" all over my paper when I stressed the forced conversion. Oy.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 11:01:14 PM by IsmiLiora »
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline MyMapleStory

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Jesus was (insert here political and religious nametags).


Offline Poppy

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My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

A few months back i was convinced he could have been a extra terrestrial in a human body
@o@

I'm nearly out of that now

Offline JamesRottnek

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Well, it is certainly not the craziest thing I've ever heard, but the idea that the incense in the Temple was marijuana, and that that was the incense early Christians used.

I must admit, I did believe this at one time...
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Offline Severian

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^ Word. My Ottoman professor always ****-talked Christianity, the Crusades, and modern evangelical Christianity all the time, stressing how Muslims, when they were ruling way back when, were much more tolerant. I wrote a paper on the devshirme/janissary system and he just wrote "NO NO NO NO NO" all over my paper when I stressed the forced conversion. Oy.
Did you tell your professor that the gizya on Egypt's Coptic Christians wasn't lifted until the 19th century? And that up until then Christians were double taxed for maintaining their faith? *Sigh* But being an Ottoman professor he may not have known that... ???
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 12:31:09 AM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline akimori makoto

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How come this professor gets to be called an Ottoman but I don't get to be called a Roman -- both empires being largely defunct?
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline Salpy

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^ Word. My Ottoman professor always ****-talked Christianity, the Crusades, and modern evangelical Christianity all the time, stressing how Muslims, when they were ruling way back when, were much more tolerant. I wrote a paper on the devshirme/janissary system and he just wrote "NO NO NO NO NO" all over my paper when I stressed the forced conversion. Oy.

Thank you for having the courage to do that.

Offline Jason.Wike

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How come this professor gets to be called an Ottoman but I don't get to be called a Roman -- both empires being largely defunct?

Maybe she went to college a realllly long time ago.  :P

Offline Ansgar

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All religious people are psychopaths

I got this one thrown in the face by a roommate  :)
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Offline Alpo

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Pretty bizarre stuff, and laughable.

Why?

Offline JamesRottnek

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How come this professor gets to be called an Ottoman but I don't get to be called a Roman -- both empires being largely defunct?

I thought she was talking about a Professor of Ottoman Studies, or some such thing.  Calling yourself an Ottoman (unless you happen to be a particular type of footstool) in this day and age is about as ludicrous as me calling myself a Pilgrim because my ancestors settled here in the seventeenth century.
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Offline IsmiLiora

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^ RE: My Ottoman Professor, 2 things

1) Even though I love different languages, my English is.....interesting. Sometimes I reverse word order or use an adjective differently. He taught the history of the Ottoman empire. I wasn't actually calling him an Ottoman ;)
2) As a joke, I actually would refer to him as "my Ottoman professor" with friends because he was obsessed (and I mean OBSESSED) with the Ottomans and thought that they could do no wrong. I got a C- on that paper, and I know it wasn't because of my writing and quality of research. The NOs on the paper pretty much spelled it out for me.
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline theo philosopher

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* Jesus never existed

* Evolution proves God doesn't exist

* The universe could have existed for an infinite period of time

* An actual infinite regress is possible

* God requires you to speak in tongues

* There's no evidence that the earliest Christians existed (yup, heard that one)

* All religions are the same

* Christianity was created to keep people in control (thus ignoring the vast majority of Christian history)
“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus

Offline vamrat

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"Christianity is a fairy tale."

Don't know why, but this one really bothers me.  Perhaps it is the pure level of scorn.  Whatever.  Someone once said this to me and I remembered that my Grandma always tells me to remember what Jesus would do.  So I fashioned a cat of nine tails out of some parachute cord and let him have it.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

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"Christianity is a fairy tale."

This bothers me for a number of reasons but mainly because when someone says it, it means he doesn't understand or appreciate fairy tales.
"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Offline celticfan1888

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"The only reason you don't kill people is becuase you fear the angry sky god"

*sigh*  ::)
Forgive my sins.

Offline vamrat

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"The only reason you don't kill people is becuase you fear the angry sky god"

*sigh*  ::)

Atheist: "The only reason you don't kill people is becuase you fear the angry sky god"

Me: "Correct.  Now, what were you saying about that angry sky God not being real..."
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline IsmiLiora

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"Wow, with all those rules, you must be miserable."
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline orthonorm

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* Jesus never existed

* Evolution proves God doesn't exist

* The universe could have existed for an infinite period of time

* An actual infinite regress is possible

* God requires you to speak in tongues

* There's no evidence that the earliest Christians existed (yup, heard that one)

* All religions are the same

* Christianity was created to keep people in control (thus ignoring the vast majority of Christian history)

Are you intentionally attempting to try my fast? Go easy on your weaker brethren.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline orthonorm

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"Christianity is a fairy tale."

This bothers me for a number of reasons but mainly because when someone says it, it means he doesn't understand or appreciate fairy tales.

We are on the same page. Just as with the myth page as well.

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline orthonorm

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The craziest thing a Christian can say:

I believe Jesus is God.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline minasoliman

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The Mother of all history conspiracies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ-vqiBvMo8&feature=related

That was by far the craziest thing I ever heard (atheists?) say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 03:21:06 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline celticfan1888

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"The only reason you don't kill people is becuase you fear the angry sky god"

*sigh*  ::)

Atheist: "The only reason you don't kill people is becuase you fear the angry sky god"

Me: "Correct.  Now, what were you saying about that angry sky God not being real..."

:laugh: :police: 8)

Man, I wish I would've said that.
Forgive my sins.

Offline theistgal

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What always irritates me is when someone describes a a really horrible crime, committed by someone claiming to be a believer, then uses that as their proof that not only is there no god but anyone who thinks there is must be at least borderline criminally insane!
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline orthonorm

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What always irritates me is when someone describes a a really horrible crime, committed by someone claiming to be a believer, then uses that as their proof that not only is there no god but anyone who thinks there is must be at least borderline criminally insane!

Or contrarywise, someone who prays and recovers from an illness and uses that to prove the existence of God or the efficacy of prayer.

It is silly. And pagan.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Justin Kissel

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The craziest thing a Christian can say:

I believe Jesus is God.

Ok, I'll bite. Why? :)
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline orthonorm

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The craziest thing a Christian can say:

I believe Jesus is God.

Ok, I'll bite. Why? :)

St. Paul tells us. Stumbling blocks. Moronic. Foolishness. etc.

It is a radical thing. To say that this man who lived in history is God from all eternity. It is insane.

I was speaking with my Priest about the fact I always feel a little weird or uneasy, when people ask if *really* believe Jesus is God.

He said that Fr. Alexander Schmemann used to say something along the lines it is good that we do not get too "comfortable" with that revelation.

The empty tomb caused the most loyal disciples (the women) to flee. The Risen Christ, the Apostles to be dumb founded. St. Paul to repair to Arabia for three years to comes to grips with his experience.

I think to forget how radical (in the literal sense here: root, come figurative: basis, truth) this first confession of being a Christian is, is why I behave as I do most of the time. To really believe, to really commit myself to the fact I say: Jesus is God, shouldn't just cause others to roll their eyes, silently dismiss me, etc. but also place me in a mood of fear and awe.

It is crazy to believe that a Jew, tortured and nailed to some wood, is God.

IMHO, it should always ring a bit disconcerting even to ourselves.

Otherwise it falls into the oft banality that it does. The one place where Jesus professed as God is consistently done absolutely not in this quotidian manner, in my life at least, is during the liturgy. The Divine Liturgy, at the least in the words, if not the everyone's heart present, treat this mystery with fear and awe.

Sides, I always like to paraphrase Kierkegaard poorly: Christianity must be the true religion, because it is the most absurd.

Get my drift?

Then again, maybe most folks find the crucified Jesus Christ to be God something comfortable and completely rational (I think they are called Thomists //:=)) and I am just a neurotic exception.


Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Shiny

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Great post orthonorm. Honestly the idea of Israel crucifiying their God is absurd, but something that puts me in awe.

I try my best not to comprehend the revelation of the inivisible God becoming a visible man and just accept it. It truly is something that cannot be rationalized but only through the lens of paradox.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline Shiny

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Pretty bizarre stuff, and laughable.

Why?
You think there is some merit to that theory?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Shiny

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What always irritates me is when someone describes a a really horrible crime, committed by someone claiming to be a believer, then uses that as their proof that not only is there no god but anyone who thinks there is must be at least borderline criminally insane!

Or contrarywise, someone who prays and recovers from an illness and uses that to prove the existence of God or the efficacy of prayer.

It is silly. And pagan.

So you don't believe in miraculous recoveries? What about miracles?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline orthonorm

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What always irritates me is when someone describes a a really horrible crime, committed by someone claiming to be a believer, then uses that as their proof that not only is there no god but anyone who thinks there is must be at least borderline criminally insane!

Or contrarywise, someone who prays and recovers from an illness and uses that to prove the existence of God or the efficacy of prayer.

It is silly. And pagan.

So you don't believe in miraculous recoveries? What about miracles?

Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan.

Or worse yet: this person was "healed" because they are "special". What about those who ain't?

See the Lord's Prayer and I challenge you to find something that looks like a request from God materially. (That bread ain't bread).

The Christian approach to such things is of course the human reaction to want to be healthy, happy, wealthy, and wise (we are fallen), but Thine not mine is the essence. Jesus Christ himself did not wish to die and prayed to be delivered, but again only according to the Will of the Father. So to pray for things as such, ain't so bad. But if that is the bulk of prayer, I would be concerned.

And if you are healed, then as St. John Chrysostom says (paraphrased) it is to suffer more for the Glory of God. To much is given, much is asked, and all that.

And certainly, you ain't gonna convert a halfway intelligent atheist to become a Christian because someone's cancer went into remission after visiting an icon.

In short, it would seem to me that the essence of Christian prayer is the Lord's Prayer:

God is worshiped.
God is thanked as the giver of all things, all of which are good (whether we think so or not).
God is asked that He keep offering all those gifts according to His Will.
God is asked that might endure all those gifts to His glory, with a specific plea for partaking in the Eucharist to better endure, love, and know His Will.
God is asked for forgiveness for all things done and not done by us to His Glory to the measure we do the same for others.
God is petitioned not to send to us what would damn us.

Something like that.

Not:

God please take away my cancer. I am so sorry for how I have sinned. And so on.

More:

God please give me the strength to witness to Your Love and Glory whether in health or sickness.

Then you can add in whatever natural human self-centered stuff we need to. But the above is what is of the essence.

Or so I have been taught.

Anything we get is a "miracle", as we deserved nothing in the first place.

Pagans bargain with God for they want.

Christians worship God and thank Him for whatever they have and the strength to witness to Him, whether cancer or winning the lottery.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I am sure others can correct me.


 
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Offline Shiny

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I completely understand what you are saying and agree with you. In regards to say children being diagnosed with cancer or whatnot, it's God's Will. Before I would make a comparsion between a healthy 4 year old child to one that is going through chemo, the more you get the more that is expected out of you so it seems equal in the end.

I still don't see what's wrong with praying to God to be delivered from illness. Thy will be Done, of course, but the problem I would see is if someone expects God to deliver them.
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Offline IsmiLiora

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+Infinity to the illness issue and the Lord's Prayer stuff.

I think it's horrible how some Christians tell me that I need to have faith to be healed from my chronic illnesses. As far as I'm concerned, I need to have faith to get up in the morning and keep going. As long as people die and as long as other people are suffering, how dare I expect God to heal me (unless there is a very specific reason for doing so, not because I'm more closer or precious to Him). If I didn't have my illness, I would probably be an actress and I would have totally ditched my faith. I don't know the reason yet, but I am almost halfway convinced that my illness brought me closer to God. That's good enough for me at the moment.

Sometimes in pain I will cry out in prayer for it to be taken away. But most of all, we should have the strength to carry on despite the illness. People don't get magically cured from Down's Syndrome. Most people (if not 100%) who were born mentally retarded remain mentally retarded throughout their lives. People who are missing limbs don't usually grow them back. Do I believe that God can make it happen? Sure, if He wants to, for His purpose. But He doesn't have to, just because I believe in Him. That's insane and arrogant, in my opinion.

But I do believe that miracles happen. I also know that I don't get to pick the place and time. So for the meantime, regardless of how high or low I happen to be feeling at that point, I just want God. That's it.


(Not going to pretend that I am not human and don't want other things, but I've stopped praying for my health a long time ago. I told God that it is His will and I pray strength to do all the work I need to do and be a good wife at the same time.)

My 2 cents.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 05:09:54 PM by IsmiLiora »
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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"Why do you worship a bloodthirsty zombie? Why not just go with Kali?"

I was asked this at a Greekfest in Birmingham, AL. She may have been kidding, teasing, or whatever....but I am not so sure of that, unfortunately.
"Kali" means "beautiful" in Greek, so you never know.
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Orthonorm, I knew you were going somewhere with your earlier posts, I had no idea where, but I figured it was somewhere.  And darn you for giving me something to contemplate tonight that doesn't involve World of Tanks!
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

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"The very first Christians (a really long time ago), didn't actually believe in god. If there really is a god, no one follows what he'd really want. The majority of Christians in my opinion can't seem to accept other religions or gays (yet the bible says everyone should be accepted for who they are)."

Someone also sent me this


yep...
Forgive my sins.

Offline JamesRottnek

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"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan." 

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us.  What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer?  If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us?  Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did?  Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor.  But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses?  We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.
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Offline orthonorm

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"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan." 

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us.  What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer?  If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us?  Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did?  Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor.  But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses?  We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

I might get back to this point. I think there is a huge disconnect in how people understand the litanies in general during Liturgy and "petitionary" prayer as we commonly might understand it in English.

I will get Aposphet's question, certainly.

But I really don't want to get into much arguing during the Fast, even in good spirit. (And a lot of my notes on stuff are being circulated. I have no idea where some of my stuff is.)

So, if it comes down to Patristic or verse mining, I am out. However, if we can stick to some I think generally held principles, it might be worth discussing.

But I fear we will have to stray into matters ontological and economic / providential, if we go far.

Have a good whatever-part-of-the-day-it-is-where-you-are-now, if I have time and the inclination to try to think this weekend or if work is slow, I might reply.

Good questions and points, certainly ones I anticipated.

Your catty catechumen,

orthonorm
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Offline JamesRottnek

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I genuinely am interested in your views, and so if you'd like a non-polemical discussion then I'm up for it (I'm not very good at quote mining anyways), but if you'd like to not so as to avoid breaking the fast, I completely understand.
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Offline ilyazhito

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Atheists have said that the "ritual practices" of Christianity are unnecessary, just do good deeds. I think that's BS

Offline minasoliman

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This is an age-old criticism since almost Christianity began, that Christians secretly partake of cannabalism (secretly because no one but believers were allowed in at the point of the Eucharistic liturgy).  Now, it's just a polemical criticism of the Eucharist, said even by a few fringe Protestants.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 10:52:52 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Kasatkin fan

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* God requires you to speak in tongues


I've heard this one from Protestants.


One I heard is that the Bible says "There is no God." I suppose that's actually true, but it has a few words before and after (Psalms 14:1).

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"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan." 

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us.  What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer?  If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us?  Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did?  Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor.  But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses?  We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

In addition, what do we make of all of the miraculous healings ascribed to Christ in the Gospels? Are we so weak in faith so as to reduce those stories to being spiritual allegory? What too is the purpose of Unction? Do we not anoint the sick with the hopes that God might have mercy on them and heal them in both body and soul (surely Unction is not performed merely for the purpose of some sort of symbolic healing)? If our God does not possess the power to heal human illness, then He also has no power over death, and our entire religion would therefore be false. We must have faith, in my opinion, that God can and does occasionally heal the sick and bring aid to the afflicted; although we cannot be sure of why some are helped and others are not, for that knowledge is God's alone to know.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline orthonorm

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"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan." 

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us.  What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer?  If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us?  Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did?  Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor.  But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses?  We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

In addition, what do we make of all of the miraculous healings ascribed to Christ in the Gospels? Are we so weak in faith so as to reduce those stories to being spiritual allegory? What too is the purpose of Unction? Do we not anoint the sick with the hopes that God might have mercy on them and heal them in both body and soul (surely Unction is not performed merely for the purpose of some sort of symbolic healing)? If our God does not possess the power to heal human illness, then He also has no power over death, and our entire religion would therefore be false. We must have faith, in my opinion, that God can and does occasionally heal the sick and bring aid to the afflicted; although we cannot be sure of why some are helped and others are not, for that knowledge is God's alone to know.

I have about 7.26 minutes free right now and maybe for the next few days.

Definitely, not going down the road of rhetoricals, which really only show you didn't read my post or are too lazy to put forth any reasonable argument of your own.

Nor am I going to argue points I didn't touch on.

The above is just a hysterical reaction to my words with no substantive content.

----------------------------------

To others who actually would like to discuss stuff, James for example.

I certainly understand my ideas might seem to be minority opinion and wrong, but I am not so sure once we get to brass tacks.

Again, I don't have the silly amount of "free time" for the next few days that I normally do and the above touch on a few threads I promised to follow up on. I am at a bit of a loss, as I have lent out a lot of my notes on things.

And of course, I couched my initial comments in a provocative manner.

But again as much I usually enjoy taking apart histrionics, I ain't going to now. And I am not going to get into a quote contest. And I am promise not to get too philosophical. To the degree I do, I promise to be concise and entertaining.

If anyone wants to start with the strongest criticism against my argument, it would be to criticize the Lord's Prayer, or at least as I parsed it. It certainly has nothing in there about praying for what much of this age finds to be "good." That includes "health" (yes I mean those scare quotes). (There is a good criticism of my parsing of it, which I acknowledge, but won't put for myself for the time being.)

That is THE framework of all prayer and the ONLY Christian prayer as such. All other prayers conform to its structure and content, to the extent they are Christian.

Thine not Mine.

 



Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline orthonorm

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Dear Aposphet,

I didn't say it is "bad" or "wrong" per se to pray for such things. I certainly ain't gonna look at someone whose child is dying and fervently praying for them to be healed and "correct" them.

My point is that we should be careful that petitionary prayer doesn't become the bulk of our prayer life. And I don't think the litanies are petitions per se. But that is something we may or may not get to.

I just want to make clear, lest I offend, that I don't mean to upbraid or make light of folks' suffering and they very understandable reaction to it.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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And I don't think the litanies are petitions per se.

I hear Fr. Thomas Hopko in the room...

Offline orthonorm

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And I don't think the litanies are petitions per se.

I hear Fr. Thomas Hopko in the room...

He is sorta my spiritual grandfather.

So is that good or bad thing? //:=)
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline GiC

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You all do know that by publicly airing your pet peeves you're just giving me more ammunition for future debates, right? ;D

Not that I mean to sound ungrateful, I do appreciate the help. ;)
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline orthonorm

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You all do know that by publicly airing your pet peeves you're just giving me more ammunition for future debates, right? ;D

Not that I mean to sound ungrateful, I do appreciate the help. ;)

I don't think you need the help.

EDIT: Realized that could be read poorly. I meant help in having reasonable arguments.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 03:11:31 PM by orthonorm »
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Justin Kissel

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You all do know that by publicly airing your pet peeves you're just giving me more ammunition for future debates, right? ;D

Not that I mean to sound ungrateful, I do appreciate the help. ;)

Nah, the stuff on this thread is too common and tame for you to use... you're the type of guy that likes to fashion his own cracy arguments  :police:
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Volnutt

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I think above all we need to remember that the ultimate healing, the ultimate satisfaction, comes with the bodily resurrection. This is when all the promises come to fruition fully, "And He shall wipe every tear from their eyes..."

Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline JamesRottnek

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Dear Aposphet,

I didn't say it is "bad" or "wrong" per se to pray for such things. I certainly ain't gonna look at someone whose child is dying and fervently praying for them to be healed and "correct" them.

My point is that we should be careful that petitionary prayer doesn't become the bulk of our prayer life. And I don't think the litanies are petitions per se. But that is something we may or may not get to.

I just want to make clear, lest I offend, that I don't mean to upbraid or make light of folks' suffering and they very understandable reaction to it.


That is certainly a good point, that we not let our petitions become the chief part of our prayer, because prayer is meant to be about God and not about us.  But I have never heard the argument that litanies aren't petitions (perhaps because I've never really paid too much attention to Fr. Thomas Hopko?).  If anyone has a podcast or an essay or something on this view point, I'd be interested.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

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You all do know that by publicly airing your pet peeves you're just giving me more ammunition for future debates, right? ;D

Not that I mean to sound ungrateful, I do appreciate the help. ;)

Please pursue the "mushroom god" line of thinking, that would be the most entertaining path you could take.
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Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Offline GiC

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You all do know that by publicly airing your pet peeves you're just giving me more ammunition for future debates, right? ;D

Not that I mean to sound ungrateful, I do appreciate the help. ;)

Please pursue the "mushroom god" line of thinking, that would be the most entertaining path you could take.

That would definitely be one of the more difficult positions to argue...it has the disadvantage of not merely being wrong, but also being absurd. Though I'll see if I can work it into an argument at some point...maybe I can make it work if we get thread about Christianity and drug use. ;)
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline PeaceSerenity

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I'm always amused when non-Christians refer to Jesus as "Christ" while their busy denying His existence or divinity or whatever :)

Offline lost

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My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?

Offline Shiny

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My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?
The Church, enemy attestation, eyewitness accounts, conversions to Christianity, etc.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline lost

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My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?
The Church, enemy attestation, eyewitness accounts, conversions to Christianity, etc.

enemy attestation whom?

eyewitness acounts whom?

conversions to Christianity whom?

Offline GiC

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My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?

No direct evidence, just postmortem references and accounts, most second or third hand. But it seems more probable that the religion was based on one of the many Jewish spiritual gurus of the time, which were quite commonplace, than an entire life and biography and back story being made up by the first Christians. Without additional evidence, the simpler explanation is more likely to be the correct one.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline lost

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My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?

No direct evidence, just postmortem references and accounts, most second or third hand. But it seems more probable that the religion was based on one of the many Jewish spiritual gurus of the time, which were quite commonplace, than an entire life and biography and back story being made up by the first Christians. Without additional evidence, the simpler explanation is more likely to be the correct one.

And which is the simpler explanation?

Offline Shiny

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No direct evidence,
The Church

Quote
just postmortem references and accounts, most second or third hand.
Appointing 70 disciples, St Paul's conversion, St James' conversion, and other first hand accounts.

Quote
But it seems more probable that the religion was based on one of the many Jewish spiritual gurus of the time, which were quite commonplace,
Yet Jesus claimed divinity so either he was truly divine or a fool. And he spoke unlike the srcibes and priests of his day.

Quote
than an entire life and biography and back story being made up by the first Christians.
Proof for this assertion?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline lost

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?


Offline akimori makoto

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My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?

No direct evidence, just postmortem references and accounts, most second or third hand. But it seems more probable that the religion was based on one of the many Jewish spiritual gurus of the time, which were quite commonplace, than an entire life and biography and back story being made up by the first Christians. Without additional evidence, the simpler explanation is more likely to be the correct one.

I never said it is ridiculous to say there is no evidence Christianity is true, only that there is no evidence Jesus called Christ ever existed.

The first proposition is tolerable, the second is just stupid and unworthy of the oft-clever people who come out with it.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline akimori makoto

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?

I am about to head off to the snowy regions of New South Wales, but I will return to this if you will permit me.

If you are of the "there's no evidence Jesus ever existed" camp, you are certainly not amongst the mainstream of historians.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline lost

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?

I am about to head off to the snowy regions of New South Wales, but I will return to this if you will permit me.

If you are of the "there's no evidence Jesus ever existed" camp, you are certainly not amongst the mainstream of historians.

I am of the camp of reason... I am an Orthodox, losing faith...

btw i need strenght and prayers, pls pray for me..

Offline Shiny

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We have physical evidence of Christianity by way of icons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos#The_house_church

Still trying to find that ialmisry quote regarding Christianity being illegal before the edict of Milan, it was a very good quote.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline Shiny

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?

I am about to head off to the snowy regions of New South Wales, but I will return to this if you will permit me.

If you are of the "there's no evidence Jesus ever existed" camp, you are certainly not amongst the mainstream of historians.

I am of the camp of reason... I am an Orthodox, losing faith...

btw i need strenght and prayers, pls pray for me..

Check out this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31711.0.html
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

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"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan." 

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us.  What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer?  If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us?  Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did?  Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor.  But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses?  We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

In addition, what do we make of all of the miraculous healings ascribed to Christ in the Gospels? Are we so weak in faith so as to reduce those stories to being spiritual allegory? What too is the purpose of Unction? Do we not anoint the sick with the hopes that God might have mercy on them and heal them in both body and soul (surely Unction is not performed merely for the purpose of some sort of symbolic healing)? If our God does not possess the power to heal human illness, then He also has no power over death, and our entire religion would therefore be false. We must have faith, in my opinion, that God can and does occasionally heal the sick and bring aid to the afflicted; although we cannot be sure of why some are helped and others are not, for that knowledge is God's alone to know.

I have about 7.26 minutes free right now and maybe for the next few days.

Definitely, not going down the road of rhetoricals, which really only show you didn't read my post or are too lazy to put forth any reasonable argument of your own.

Nor am I going to argue points I didn't touch on.

The above is just a hysterical reaction to my words with no substantive content.

----------------------------------

To others who actually would like to discuss stuff, James for example.

I certainly understand my ideas might seem to be minority opinion and wrong, but I am not so sure once we get to brass tacks.

Again, I don't have the silly amount of "free time" for the next few days that I normally do and the above touch on a few threads I promised to follow up on. I am at a bit of a loss, as I have lent out a lot of my notes on things.

And of course, I couched my initial comments in a provocative manner.

But again as much I usually enjoy taking apart histrionics, I ain't going to now. And I am not going to get into a quote contest. And I am promise not to get too philosophical. To the degree I do, I promise to be concise and entertaining.

If anyone wants to start with the strongest criticism against my argument, it would be to criticize the Lord's Prayer, or at least as I parsed it. It certainly has nothing in there about praying for what much of this age finds to be "good." That includes "health" (yes I mean those scare quotes). (There is a good criticism of my parsing of it, which I acknowledge, but won't put for myself for the time being.)

That is THE framework of all prayer and the ONLY Christian prayer as such. All other prayers conform to its structure and content, to the extent they are Christian.

Thine not Mine.


My argument was that asking God for our well-being is integral to our faith. If we do not believe that God can provide for our well-being, then we cannot possibly believe that He can resurrect us from the dead. Given, there are times when God has another plan for us and does not answer our petitions, but it cannot hurt to ask God for help in times of hardship. I don't find anything particularly pagan about that. Sure, we shouldn't bargain with God, but what is particularly pagan about asking for help? Then again, what do I know, since apparently I'm too lazy to make a reasonable argument.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 06:14:13 PM by Cavaradossi »
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Offline Ansgar

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



A bowl of clay have been found in Egypt dating back to the first century on which there stand "BY Christ the magician" It was supposedlu made by a local magician who had heard of Christ and his miracles and tried to use his name to convince his customers about his "supernatural" powers.

Here is a link:
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/10/14/inscription-with-christ-found-on-bowl-in-alexandria.aspx

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



A bowl of clay have been found in Egypt dating back to the first century on which there stand "BY Christ the magician" It was supposedlu made by a local magician who had heard of Christ and his miracles and tried to use his name to convince his customers about his "supernatural" powers.
Well, some of the first Christians were the 'magical' magi.
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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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Offline celticfan1888

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My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?

Richard Dawkins says he probably existed for pete's sake.

G. R. S. Mead and Ellegard argued that the Gospel Jesus is a myth based on an earlier historical person described in the Talmud or Dead Sea Scrolls. (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/rmsbrg00.htm#CONTENTS) (The God Delusion (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, pg 97))
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Offline celticfan1888

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enemy attestation whom?

eyewitness acounts whom?

conversions to Christianity whom?

There's more evidence for him existing than not existing.
Forgive my sins.

Offline Kasatkin fan

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



Quite a bit. Many of the Apocrypha mention him, often focusing on him.

If you're making the common secular demand for non-religious works that speak of him (I believe Josephus mentions him), you should realize that you're asking for, he was a religious figure and everything speaking of him is going to have that tinge.

It would be like asking for evidence of Octavius from non-political writings, or Julius Caesar from non-military-political sources. I doubt you'll find many non-religious sources that mention Mohammed either.

In fact for the first two of those very important historical figures, the amount of evidence for their existence is far less than for Christ (I have no idea about Mohammed, I'd assume about the same), so if you want to take the position that there is no acceptable evidence that Jesus ever lived, you must of necessity doubt the existence of every historical figure before 1500, and many after.

Offline lost

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



Quite a bit. Many of the Apocrypha mention him, often focusing on him.

If you're making the common secular demand for non-religious works that speak of him (I believe Josephus mentions him), you should realize that you're asking for, he was a religious figure and everything speaking of him is going to have that tinge.

It would be like asking for evidence of Octavius from non-political writings, or Julius Caesar from non-military-political sources. I doubt you'll find many non-religious sources that mention Mohammed either.

In fact for the first two of those very important historical figures, the amount of evidence for their existence is far less than for Christ (I have no idea about Mohammed, I'd assume about the same), so if you want to take the position that there is no acceptable evidence that Jesus ever lived, you must of necessity doubt the existence of every historical figure before 1500, and many after.

religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...

Mohammed afaik has more historical validity than Jesus.He was an historic figure, involved in military campaigns.

Offline Shiny

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Josephus was Jewish...
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religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...


Here is a Wiki site which will get you started with investigating the historical evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Offline Shiny

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religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...


Here is a Wiki site which will get you started with investigating the historical evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Father if I may add, certain saints like Jerome placed their own misguided pride over the judgment of the Church which in turn would cause a think tank like the Jesus Seminar to come. What I mean by this instead of looking to the LXX for the OT which was approved by the Church, Hebrews, etc to create the Vulgate he instead looked to the Jews of his day for assistance, like the Masoretic text.. So consequently because of his poor scholarship, it's as if the Church couldn't be trusted for one man's voice superseded that of the Church. And of course certain other figures were just adding more fuel to the fire to further create a schism between both western and eastern churches culminating to the Great Schism.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline NicholasMyra

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?


Have you considered that the New Testament is 27 separate documents that were only later accumulated into one text?

Because many odd people today consider "the Bible" to constitute a single ancient source.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 04:13:39 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline Volnutt

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proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



Quite a bit. Many of the Apocrypha mention him, often focusing on him.

If you're making the common secular demand for non-religious works that speak of him (I believe Josephus mentions him), you should realize that you're asking for, he was a religious figure and everything speaking of him is going to have that tinge.

It would be like asking for evidence of Octavius from non-political writings, or Julius Caesar from non-military-political sources. I doubt you'll find many non-religious sources that mention Mohammed either.

In fact for the first two of those very important historical figures, the amount of evidence for their existence is far less than for Christ (I have no idea about Mohammed, I'd assume about the same), so if you want to take the position that there is no acceptable evidence that Jesus ever lived, you must of necessity doubt the existence of every historical figure before 1500, and many after.

religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...

Mohammed afaik has more historical validity than Jesus.He was an historic figure, involved in military campaigns.
Josephus was Jewish and is considered a trustworthy source for events of his own lifetime such as those of Jesus' life. Real historians don't discount an entire source because it's "religious."


As for secular sources, Tacitus and possibly Suetonius both mention Jesus. Lucian also. Hardly sympathetic sources. Also significant is the fact that no early sceptic (Trypho, Celsus, Porphyry, etc.) was using the argument that Jesus never existed, otherwise the Christian apologetic literature would certainly reflect a rebuttal.

Then there is the Jewish Talmud, a hostile source, which again contains a denigrating treatment of Jesus but not a denial of his existence.
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Offline Volnutt

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religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...


Here is a Wiki site which will get you started with investigating the historical evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Father if I may add, certain saints like Jerome placed their own misguided pride over the judgment of the Church which in turn would cause a think tank like the Jesus Seminar to come. What I mean by this instead of looking to the LXX for the OT which was approved by the Church, Hebrews, etc to create the Vulgate he instead looked to the Jews of his day for assistance, like the Masoretic text.. So consequently because of his poor scholarship, it's as if the Church couldn't be trusted for one man's voice superseded that of the Church. And of course certain other figures were just adding more fuel to the fire to further create a schism between both western and eastern churches culminating to the Great Schism.
That's going a little too far imo. Yes, the Masoretic (which comes centuries after St. Jerome, though I'm guessing you mean its text family) is inferior but it's not so terrible as to throw the entire Church into doubt.

And AFAIK the Jesus Seminar paid little attention to manuscripts, mostly relying on the RSV, which many Orthodox teachers use.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 09:49:26 AM by Volnutt »
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline Justin Kissel

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enemy attestation whom?

eyewitness acounts whom?

conversions to Christianity whom?

You're not going to find much, because there wasn't much, until far too late afterwards...
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline lost

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religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...


Here is a Wiki site which will get you started with investigating the historical evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

from your link : There are Greco-Roman pagan passages relevant to Christianity in the works of three major non-Christian writers of the late 1st and early 2nd centuries – Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger. However, these are generally references to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus. Tacitus, in his Annals written c. 115, mentions Christus, without many historical details (see also: Tacitus on Jesus). There is an obscure reference to a Jewish leader called "Chrestus" in Suetonius. (According to Suetonius, chapter 25, there occurred in Rome, during the reign of emperor Claudius (c. AD 50), "persistent disturbances ... at the instigation of Chrestus".[66][67] Mention in Acts of "After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome."

Charles Guignebert (Professor of the History Of Christianity at the Sorbonne), while rejecting the Jesus Myth theory and feeling that the Epistles of Paul were sufficient to prove the historical existence of Jesus, said "all the pagan and Jewish testimonies, so-called, afford us no information of any value about the life of Jesus, nor even any assurance that he ever lived.

Offline vamrat

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There are not a whole bunch of historical forces for Jesus...if you throw out the Bible.  Now, for your homework, find some contemporary sources for Alexander the Great.  There are probably more sources about Jesus than there are for Alexander the Great if you accept sources written hundreds of years after the fact.

(And the only people who debate whether Alexander existed believe that Aliens built the pyramids, Atlantis was a real place, and wear their pants on their head...to hold the tinfoil in place.  I hold people who don't believe Jesus existed in about the same regard...)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 03:28:09 PM by vamrat »
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Offline Shiny

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There's more manuscripts of the NT than there are any other documents from antiquity.

If Christ never lived there would be no Church. Why would Jews be tortured and killed for something that was just a myth? And taken as a whole, Christianity must be the cruelest hoax ever invented if you subscribe that it was created.
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Offline celticfan1888

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And the only people who debate whether Alexander existed believe that Aliens built the pyramids...

They're space ships I tell ya!  ::)
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Why would Jews be tortured and killed for something that was just a myth?

People die for abstract ideas and concepts all the time. It's amazing how pliable people are.
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline JamesRottnek

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Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?

It was blasphemy, and they weren't restricted by modern ideas of freedom and sensitivity and all that stuff.
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline orthonorm

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Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?

It was blasphemy, and they weren't restricted by modern ideas of freedom and sensitivity and all that stuff.

Oh to be so unshackled!
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Offline Shiny

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Why would Jews be tortured and killed for something that was just a myth?

People die for abstract ideas and concepts all the time. It's amazing how pliable people are.
But realistically speaking would someone honestly be crucified, behaded, tortured, etc for just an abstract idea or concept? Wouldn't the very act of being exposed to being killed immediately put into question how much veracity is in the claim that Christ rose from the dead?

I'm trying to picture the hysteria whence upon seeing the Risen Christ.
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Offline Volnutt

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Charles Guignebert (Professor of the History Of Christianity at the Sorbonne), while rejecting the Jesus Myth theory and feeling that the Epistles of Paul were sufficient to prove the historical existence of Jesus, said "all the pagan and Jewish testimonies, so-called, afford us no information of any value about the life of Jesus, nor even any assurance that he ever lived.
I think he's smoking crack, but even if he's right, why don't agree with him re: Paul?
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?

It was blasphemy, and they weren't restricted by modern ideas of freedom and sensitivity and all that stuff.

Belief in a symbolic person was blasphemy?  Wouldn't it also, then, be blasphemy to think of Moses seeing the backside of God, given that God has no body?
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?

It was blasphemy, and they weren't restricted by modern ideas of freedom and sensitivity and all that stuff.

Belief in a symbolic person was blasphemy?

Sure.

Quote
Wouldn't it also, then, be blasphemy to think of Moses seeing the backside of God, given that God has no body?

You'd think so, wouldn't ya? *shrugs* I can't explain people...
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline NicholasMyra

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It appears Asteriktos wants to avoid easy, unsatisfactory answers.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline NicholasMyra

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And if you are healed, then as St. John Chrysostom says (paraphrased) it is to suffer more for the Glory of God. To much is given, much is asked, and all that.


Do any of our Patristicians have the homily (or whatever) where this comes from?

I got curious as to what St. John was commenting on. It's one of the best things he said, IMO.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline saint samuel

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"jesus killed people"
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Offline Peacemaker

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Atheists you say... I don't think I've met a real Atheist, seems like most people I meet who call themselves Atheist are in fact Anti-Theist.  :laugh:

Offline JamesR

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The conspiracy that Jesus the "Son of God" was influenced by the Aztec worship of the Sun--hence Sun/Son, and Jesus becoming the Sun/Son of God.

Ignoring the fact that the similarity between the words "Son" and "Sun" are purely coincidental and only apply in English and not in Hebrew or the native Aztec languages, I guess these people never learned in school that the West didn't even encounter the Aztecs until the 16th century, almost two millennium after Christianity had been established.

People need to stop listening to silly KRS-1 songs to get their information from.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Online xOrthodox4Christx

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"jesus killed people"

Jesus was Hitler.

No kidding.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 07:57:38 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline dzheremi

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Jesus and Muhammad were basically the same since Jesus said he came not to bring peace but to bring a sword, so you can't criticize Muhammad/Islam unless you criticize Jesus too.

(That was said by a Muslim who was trying to argue that Christianity is wrong and Islam is right. When Muhammad and Jesus are "basically the same", and of course Islam teaches that Jesus preached essentially Islamic doctrine anyway. Hmmm.)

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Jesus was a buddhist
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Avdima

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"The eucharist was originally a psychedelic mushroom and Christ is actually a mushroom god."

Vladimir Lenin was a mushroom too.

Quote
Lenin was a mushroom was a televised hoax by musician Sergey Kuryokhin and reporter Sergey Sholokhov. It was first broadcast on 17 May 1991 on Leningrad Television. The hoax had the form of an interview.

In the interview Kuryokhin was telling about his findings that Vladimir Lenin used to consume a lot of psychedelic mushrooms and eventually turned into a mushroom himself. This absurd idea wasn't presented all at once; instead there was a resemblance of logical chain of reasonings, facts and quotations from various sources. An aura of plausibility was created using manipulation of facts, pseudo-scientific style and loose storytelling.

Quote
The timing of the hoax played a large role in its success. It was shown on TV in the Glasnost period when many censorship barriers fell and there were many revelations and publication of previously concealed facts from USSR history, often with sensational flavor. Additionally, Soviet TV had been very official and prim before. As a result, approximately 11,250,000 audience members took the hoax seriously, even despite the totally absurd claims. According to S. Sholokhov himself, in response to inquiries about the truth of the claims, the person responsible for ideology in a Regional Committee of the Communist Party stated that they were false, as "a mammal can not be a plant."

Offline Aquensis

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The conspiracy that Jesus the "Son of God" was influenced by the Aztec worship of the Sun--hence Sun/Son, and Jesus becoming the Sun/Son of God.

Ignoring the fact that the similarity between the words "Son" and "Sun" are purely coincidental and only apply in English and not in Hebrew or the native Aztec languages, I guess these people never learned in school that the West didn't even encounter the Aztecs until the 16th century, almost two millennium after Christianity had been established.

People need to stop listening to silly KRS-1 songs to get their information from.

You can also add the fact that the Aztecs didn't even exist 2000 years ago. Because you just know they're going to try and come up with some stuff about Aztecs sailing to the Levant.

Online Iconodule

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"The eucharist was originally a psychedelic mushroom and Christ is actually a mushroom god."

Vladimir Lenin was a mushroom too.

Quote
Lenin was a mushroom was a televised hoax by musician Sergey Kuryokhin and reporter Sergey Sholokhov. It was first broadcast on 17 May 1991 on Leningrad Television. The hoax had the form of an interview.

In the interview Kuryokhin was telling about his findings that Vladimir Lenin used to consume a lot of psychedelic mushrooms and eventually turned into a mushroom himself. This absurd idea wasn't presented all at once; instead there was a resemblance of logical chain of reasonings, facts and quotations from various sources. An aura of plausibility was created using manipulation of facts, pseudo-scientific style and loose storytelling.

Quote
The timing of the hoax played a large role in its success. It was shown on TV in the Glasnost period when many censorship barriers fell and there were many revelations and publication of previously concealed facts from USSR history, often with sensational flavor. Additionally, Soviet TV had been very official and prim before. As a result, approximately 11,250,000 audience members took the hoax seriously, even despite the totally absurd claims. According to S. Sholokhov himself, in response to inquiries about the truth of the claims, the person responsible for ideology in a Regional Committee of the Communist Party stated that they were false, as "a mammal can not be a plant."

Why haven't I heard about this before? This is fantastic. Reminds me of this film:

« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 11:21:22 AM by Iconodule »
"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Online Cyrillic

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"jesus killed people"

Jesus was Hitler.

No kidding.

It was probably related to this weird joke.

It's probably offensive, so click at your own responsibility. I've warned you.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 11:27:48 AM by Cyrillic »
"April is the cruellest month, breeding
lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
memory and desire, stirring
dull roots with spring rain."
-T.S. Eliot

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Craziest things atheists/non-believers have said about the Christian faith.
« Reply #124 on: September 03, 2014, 01:04:54 AM »
St. Paul had epilepsy.  In fact, so did Jesus, and all his disciples.  It's the most rational explanation for all their behaviour.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Craziest things atheists/non-believers have said about the Christian faith.
« Reply #125 on: September 03, 2014, 01:07:19 AM »
Oh Velsigne, you really put the u in abnormal behaviour!
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Craziest things atheists/non-believers have said about the Christian faith.
« Reply #126 on: September 03, 2014, 01:08:52 AM »
Oh Velsigne, you really put the u in abnormal behaviour!

LOL  :P