OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 31, 2014, 07:47:47 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Craziest things atheists/non-believers have said about the Christian faith.  (Read 7510 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« on: August 01, 2011, 06:43:30 PM »

I have come across a topic regarding the Christian God as having been derived as a Volcano god, and that the early Jewish belief was worshipping a volcano god. This theory is somehow support that Mt Sinai was a ground for active volcanos and the fire and smoke was actually from a volcano. And then loosely connected by phrases "lakes of fire, burnt sacrifices, fire, etc"

Pretty bizarre stuff, and laughable.

Anyone have any other stories?
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,375



« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2011, 07:40:41 PM »

I generally stick up for the poor ole atheists and non-believers, but if I hear one more of them say "Christianity is just like every other religion. It was invented to control the people" I'm going to scream.
Logged

St. Basil is great!

Wonder if he drank goat's milk . . .
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2011, 07:48:00 PM »

I generally stick up for the poor ole atheists and non-believers, but if I hear one more of them say "Christianity is just like every other religion. It was invented to control the people" I'm going to scream.

I was hoping you'd say Christianity was cut from the same cloth like Mithra, Dionysius, Horus and even bizarrely Buddha.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2011, 07:49:08 PM »

My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2011, 07:53:25 PM »

My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

Ah yes, and whenever somebody asserts that claim they aren't in the position to be taken seriously.

I'm glad Jesus Christ exists. If we look at it from a salvation standpoint here on Earth (as far as a belief in Christ stopping those from suicide, murder, etc) he's saved millions. What myth has that power? What myth has the power to overtake an empire solely on love? And on and on and on.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2011, 08:08:46 PM »

My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

Ah yes, and whenever somebody asserts that claim they aren't in the position to be taken seriously.

Yeah, I stop listening as soon as they utter that inanity.

I'm glad Jesus Christ exists. If we look at it from a salvation standpoint here on Earth (as far as a belief in Christ stopping those from suicide, murder, etc) he's saved millions. What myth has that power? What myth has the power to overtake an empire solely on love? And on and on and on.

Well said.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2011, 08:17:49 PM »

"The eucharist was originally a psychedelic mushroom and Christ is actually a mushroom god."
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,741


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2011, 08:18:39 PM »

"You know it's really paganism/Buddhism/something else in disguise, right?"

 Huh

 Tongue
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2011, 08:20:16 PM »

"The eucharist was originally a psychedelic mushroom and Christ is actually a mushroom god."
LOL no way.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2011, 08:22:28 PM »

"Why do you worship a bloodthirsty zombie? Why not just go with Kali?"

I was asked this at a Greekfest in Birmingham, AL. She may have been kidding, teasing, or whatever....but I am not so sure of that, unfortunately.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2011, 08:27:37 PM »

"The eucharist was originally a psychedelic mushroom and Christ is actually a mushroom god."
LOL no way.

Here's a book I saw on this topic (my brother was reading it): http://www.amazon.com/Mushrooms-Mankind-Impact-Consciousness-Religion/dp/1585091510/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312244745&sr=1-1

The book is so poorly written and researched that I was very surprised my brother (a very intelligent person) was reading it.

The owner of this Youtube channel also has videos putting forth this view... he claims he was a novice monk briefly at St. Anthony's in Arizona. Pray for him.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,375



« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2011, 08:28:42 PM »

"Why do you worship a bloodthirsty zombie? Why not just go with Kali?"

I was asked this at a Greekfest in Birmingham, AL. She may have been kidding, teasing, or whatever....but I am not so sure of that, unfortunately.

Well, the "zombie Jesus" is a popular thing nowadays.  police I believe the answer to her question, whether she was serious or not, is: "I do so because after the talking snake convinced the nude rib-woman to eat the magical fruit from a one of a kind tree, she and her hubby fell from grace and were thrown out of eden, and so my family has needed some divine help since then; zombie Jesus offered that help in the form of sacrificing himself to himself so that he wouldn't be angry with me anymore"  Tongue  Grin  (Just kidding... )
Logged

St. Basil is great!

Wonder if he drank goat's milk . . .
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2011, 08:32:54 PM »

"Yahweh is just a bronze age tribal war god."

"Faith may not be able to move mountains, but look what it does to skyscrapers! (and various permutations)"

"If you grew up in Saudi Arabia/wherever, you'd probably be a Muslim/random non-Christian religion."

Everything that comes out of this guy's noise hole. http://theintelligentzone.blogspot.com/ My favorite, "Google maps can find anything. You can't find God on Google maps. Therefore, God does not exist."
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,741


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2011, 08:33:44 PM »

Of course, the key lessons of that story are: never eat apples, and if you think snakes are talking to you, run. Wink.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2011, 08:42:21 PM »

Everything that comes out of this guy's noise hole. http://theintelligentzone.blogspot.com/ My favorite, "Google maps can find anything. You can't find God on Google maps. Therefore, God does not exist."

I'm not sure what's more limiting, that Google maps only covers the Earth or his brain.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2011, 08:47:22 PM »

Indeed lol. I really hope he's a troll, but he's been at it for so long...

Another one, "Proverbs 24:13 advises eating honey. Honey is bad for your teeth. Therefore the Bible is evil for contradicting good dental science."
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,375



« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2011, 08:50:44 PM »

Sounds like the alternate universe (=opposite) version of this guy, who does a pretty good job pretending to be a fairly dull Christian fighting against atheists.
Logged

St. Basil is great!

Wonder if he drank goat's milk . . .
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,769


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2011, 09:54:40 PM »

"Semitic people", who all worshiped YHWH, and included the Egyptians, wiped out the original near-eastern Mother Goddess and installed patriarchy, theocracy, empire and "mean, war-prone" YHWH as God over all of the Near East and Mediterranean.

Yeah. People think that.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 09:55:00 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2011, 10:54:30 PM »

Every permutation of "Christianity was only spread by the sword." When you mention that sub-Roman Britain seems to have totally converted over night to Christianity all they can ever say "You're wrong idiot." When you mention Ireland which willingly converted, same thing. When you mention Scotland, same...
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 10:56:31 PM by Jason.Wike » Logged
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2011, 11:01:07 PM »

^ Word. My Ottoman professor always ****-talked Christianity, the Crusades, and modern evangelical Christianity all the time, stressing how Muslims, when they were ruling way back when, were much more tolerant. I wrote a paper on the devshirme/janissary system and he just wrote "NO NO NO NO NO" all over my paper when I stressed the forced conversion. Oy.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 11:01:14 PM by IsmiLiora » Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
MyMapleStory
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Approaching Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: Will probably be Greek
Posts: 181


« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2011, 12:39:46 AM »

Jesus was (insert here political and religious nametags).

Logged
Poppy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Hanbali fiqh
Posts: 1,030

onlytwatsusetwitter
WWW
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2011, 12:47:19 AM »

My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

A few months back i was convinced he could have been a extra terrestrial in a human body
@o@

I'm nearly out of that now
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2011, 10:46:37 PM »

Well, it is certainly not the craziest thing I've ever heard, but the idea that the incense in the Temple was marijuana, and that that was the incense early Christians used.

I must admit, I did believe this at one time...
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2011, 12:29:33 AM »

^ Word. My Ottoman professor always ****-talked Christianity, the Crusades, and modern evangelical Christianity all the time, stressing how Muslims, when they were ruling way back when, were much more tolerant. I wrote a paper on the devshirme/janissary system and he just wrote "NO NO NO NO NO" all over my paper when I stressed the forced conversion. Oy.
Did you tell your professor that the gizya on Egypt's Coptic Christians wasn't lifted until the 19th century? And that up until then Christians were double taxed for maintaining their faith? *Sigh* But being an Ottoman professor he may not have known that... Huh
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 12:31:09 AM by Severian » Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq & Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2011, 01:08:11 AM »

How come this professor gets to be called an Ottoman but I don't get to be called a Roman -- both empires being largely defunct?
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,442


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2011, 01:58:36 AM »

^ Word. My Ottoman professor always ****-talked Christianity, the Crusades, and modern evangelical Christianity all the time, stressing how Muslims, when they were ruling way back when, were much more tolerant. I wrote a paper on the devshirme/janissary system and he just wrote "NO NO NO NO NO" all over my paper when I stressed the forced conversion. Oy.

Thank you for having the courage to do that.
Logged

Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2011, 02:06:33 AM »

How come this professor gets to be called an Ottoman but I don't get to be called a Roman -- both empires being largely defunct?

Maybe she went to college a realllly long time ago.  Tongue
Logged
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,923


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2011, 03:32:16 AM »

All religious people are psychopaths

I got this one thrown in the face by a roommate  Smiley
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,513



« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2011, 03:41:13 AM »

Pretty bizarre stuff, and laughable.

Why?
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2011, 07:50:09 AM »

How come this professor gets to be called an Ottoman but I don't get to be called a Roman -- both empires being largely defunct?

I thought she was talking about a Professor of Ottoman Studies, or some such thing.  Calling yourself an Ottoman (unless you happen to be a particular type of footstool) in this day and age is about as ludicrous as me calling myself a Pilgrim because my ancestors settled here in the seventeenth century.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2011, 09:31:07 AM »

^ RE: My Ottoman Professor, 2 things

1) Even though I love different languages, my English is.....interesting. Sometimes I reverse word order or use an adjective differently. He taught the history of the Ottoman empire. I wasn't actually calling him an Ottoman Wink
2) As a joke, I actually would refer to him as "my Ottoman professor" with friends because he was obsessed (and I mean OBSESSED) with the Ottomans and thought that they could do no wrong. I got a C- on that paper, and I know it wasn't because of my writing and quality of research. The NOs on the paper pretty much spelled it out for me.
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
theo philosopher
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 315



« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2011, 09:57:50 AM »

* Jesus never existed

* Evolution proves God doesn't exist

* The universe could have existed for an infinite period of time

* An actual infinite regress is possible

* God requires you to speak in tongues

* There's no evidence that the earliest Christians existed (yup, heard that one)

* All religions are the same

* Christianity was created to keep people in control (thus ignoring the vast majority of Christian history)
Logged

“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,492



« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2011, 11:40:56 AM »

"Christianity is a fairy tale."

Don't know why, but this one really bothers me.  Perhaps it is the pure level of scorn.  Whatever.  Someone once said this to me and I remembered that my Grandma always tells me to remember what Jesus would do.  So I fashioned a cat of nine tails out of some parachute cord and let him have it.
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2011, 12:07:24 PM »

"Christianity is a fairy tale."

This bothers me for a number of reasons but mainly because when someone says it, it means he doesn't understand or appreciate fairy tales.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2011, 12:38:33 PM »

"The only reason you don't kill people is becuase you fear the angry sky god"

*sigh*  Roll Eyes
Logged

Forgive my sins.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,492



« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2011, 01:12:13 PM »

"The only reason you don't kill people is becuase you fear the angry sky god"

*sigh*  Roll Eyes

Atheist: "The only reason you don't kill people is becuase you fear the angry sky god"

Me: "Correct.  Now, what were you saying about that angry sky God not being real..."
Logged
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2011, 01:16:14 PM »

"Wow, with all those rules, you must be miserable."
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2011, 01:19:35 PM »

* Jesus never existed

* Evolution proves God doesn't exist

* The universe could have existed for an infinite period of time

* An actual infinite regress is possible

* God requires you to speak in tongues

* There's no evidence that the earliest Christians existed (yup, heard that one)

* All religions are the same

* Christianity was created to keep people in control (thus ignoring the vast majority of Christian history)

Are you intentionally attempting to try my fast? Go easy on your weaker brethren.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2011, 01:21:11 PM »

"Christianity is a fairy tale."

This bothers me for a number of reasons but mainly because when someone says it, it means he doesn't understand or appreciate fairy tales.

We are on the same page. Just as with the myth page as well.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2011, 01:22:44 PM »

The craziest thing a Christian can say:

I believe Jesus is God.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,422


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2011, 03:10:51 PM »

The Mother of all history conspiracies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ-vqiBvMo8&feature=related

That was by far the craziest thing I ever heard (atheists?) say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 03:21:06 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2011, 05:40:18 PM »

"The only reason you don't kill people is becuase you fear the angry sky god"

*sigh*  Roll Eyes

Atheist: "The only reason you don't kill people is becuase you fear the angry sky god"

Me: "Correct.  Now, what were you saying about that angry sky God not being real..."

laugh police Cool

Man, I wish I would've said that.
Logged

Forgive my sins.
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2011, 11:22:31 AM »

What always irritates me is when someone describes a a really horrible crime, committed by someone claiming to be a believer, then uses that as their proof that not only is there no god but anyone who thinks there is must be at least borderline criminally insane!
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2011, 11:56:15 AM »

What always irritates me is when someone describes a a really horrible crime, committed by someone claiming to be a believer, then uses that as their proof that not only is there no god but anyone who thinks there is must be at least borderline criminally insane!

Or contrarywise, someone who prays and recovers from an illness and uses that to prove the existence of God or the efficacy of prayer.

It is silly. And pagan.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,375



« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2011, 12:27:55 PM »

The craziest thing a Christian can say:

I believe Jesus is God.

Ok, I'll bite. Why? Smiley
Logged

St. Basil is great!

Wonder if he drank goat's milk . . .
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2011, 02:33:02 PM »

The craziest thing a Christian can say:

I believe Jesus is God.

Ok, I'll bite. Why? Smiley

St. Paul tells us. Stumbling blocks. Moronic. Foolishness. etc.

It is a radical thing. To say that this man who lived in history is God from all eternity. It is insane.

I was speaking with my Priest about the fact I always feel a little weird or uneasy, when people ask if *really* believe Jesus is God.

He said that Fr. Alexander Schmemann used to say something along the lines it is good that we do not get too "comfortable" with that revelation.

The empty tomb caused the most loyal disciples (the women) to flee. The Risen Christ, the Apostles to be dumb founded. St. Paul to repair to Arabia for three years to comes to grips with his experience.

I think to forget how radical (in the literal sense here: root, come figurative: basis, truth) this first confession of being a Christian is, is why I behave as I do most of the time. To really believe, to really commit myself to the fact I say: Jesus is God, shouldn't just cause others to roll their eyes, silently dismiss me, etc. but also place me in a mood of fear and awe.

It is crazy to believe that a Jew, tortured and nailed to some wood, is God.

IMHO, it should always ring a bit disconcerting even to ourselves.

Otherwise it falls into the oft banality that it does. The one place where Jesus professed as God is consistently done absolutely not in this quotidian manner, in my life at least, is during the liturgy. The Divine Liturgy, at the least in the words, if not the everyone's heart present, treat this mystery with fear and awe.

Sides, I always like to paraphrase Kierkegaard poorly: Christianity must be the true religion, because it is the most absurd.

Get my drift?

Then again, maybe most folks find the crucified Jesus Christ to be God something comfortable and completely rational (I think they are called Thomists //:=)) and I am just a neurotic exception.


Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2011, 03:59:38 PM »

Great post orthonorm. Honestly the idea of Israel crucifiying their God is absurd, but something that puts me in awe.

I try my best not to comprehend the revelation of the inivisible God becoming a visible man and just accept it. It truly is something that cannot be rationalized but only through the lens of paradox.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2011, 04:03:30 PM »

Pretty bizarre stuff, and laughable.

Why?
You think there is some merit to that theory?
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2011, 04:20:05 PM »

What always irritates me is when someone describes a a really horrible crime, committed by someone claiming to be a believer, then uses that as their proof that not only is there no god but anyone who thinks there is must be at least borderline criminally insane!

Or contrarywise, someone who prays and recovers from an illness and uses that to prove the existence of God or the efficacy of prayer.

It is silly. And pagan.

So you don't believe in miraculous recoveries? What about miracles?
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2011, 04:53:48 PM »

What always irritates me is when someone describes a a really horrible crime, committed by someone claiming to be a believer, then uses that as their proof that not only is there no god but anyone who thinks there is must be at least borderline criminally insane!

Or contrarywise, someone who prays and recovers from an illness and uses that to prove the existence of God or the efficacy of prayer.

It is silly. And pagan.

So you don't believe in miraculous recoveries? What about miracles?

Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan.

Or worse yet: this person was "healed" because they are "special". What about those who ain't?

See the Lord's Prayer and I challenge you to find something that looks like a request from God materially. (That bread ain't bread).

The Christian approach to such things is of course the human reaction to want to be healthy, happy, wealthy, and wise (we are fallen), but Thine not mine is the essence. Jesus Christ himself did not wish to die and prayed to be delivered, but again only according to the Will of the Father. So to pray for things as such, ain't so bad. But if that is the bulk of prayer, I would be concerned.

And if you are healed, then as St. John Chrysostom says (paraphrased) it is to suffer more for the Glory of God. To much is given, much is asked, and all that.

And certainly, you ain't gonna convert a halfway intelligent atheist to become a Christian because someone's cancer went into remission after visiting an icon.

In short, it would seem to me that the essence of Christian prayer is the Lord's Prayer:

God is worshiped.
God is thanked as the giver of all things, all of which are good (whether we think so or not).
God is asked that He keep offering all those gifts according to His Will.
God is asked that might endure all those gifts to His glory, with a specific plea for partaking in the Eucharist to better endure, love, and know His Will.
God is asked for forgiveness for all things done and not done by us to His Glory to the measure we do the same for others.
God is petitioned not to send to us what would damn us.

Something like that.

Not:

God please take away my cancer. I am so sorry for how I have sinned. And so on.

More:

God please give me the strength to witness to Your Love and Glory whether in health or sickness.

Then you can add in whatever natural human self-centered stuff we need to. But the above is what is of the essence.

Or so I have been taught.

Anything we get is a "miracle", as we deserved nothing in the first place.

Pagans bargain with God for they want.

Christians worship God and thank Him for whatever they have and the strength to witness to Him, whether cancer or winning the lottery.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I am sure others can correct me.


 
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2011, 05:00:50 PM »

I completely understand what you are saying and agree with you. In regards to say children being diagnosed with cancer or whatnot, it's God's Will. Before I would make a comparsion between a healthy 4 year old child to one that is going through chemo, the more you get the more that is expected out of you so it seems equal in the end.

I still don't see what's wrong with praying to God to be delivered from illness. Thy will be Done, of course, but the problem I would see is if someone expects God to deliver them.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2011, 05:08:00 PM »

+Infinity to the illness issue and the Lord's Prayer stuff.

I think it's horrible how some Christians tell me that I need to have faith to be healed from my chronic illnesses. As far as I'm concerned, I need to have faith to get up in the morning and keep going. As long as people die and as long as other people are suffering, how dare I expect God to heal me (unless there is a very specific reason for doing so, not because I'm more closer or precious to Him). If I didn't have my illness, I would probably be an actress and I would have totally ditched my faith. I don't know the reason yet, but I am almost halfway convinced that my illness brought me closer to God. That's good enough for me at the moment.

Sometimes in pain I will cry out in prayer for it to be taken away. But most of all, we should have the strength to carry on despite the illness. People don't get magically cured from Down's Syndrome. Most people (if not 100%) who were born mentally retarded remain mentally retarded throughout their lives. People who are missing limbs don't usually grow them back. Do I believe that God can make it happen? Sure, if He wants to, for His purpose. But He doesn't have to, just because I believe in Him. That's insane and arrogant, in my opinion.

But I do believe that miracles happen. I also know that I don't get to pick the place and time. So for the meantime, regardless of how high or low I happen to be feeling at that point, I just want God. That's it.


(Not going to pretend that I am not human and don't want other things, but I've stopped praying for my health a long time ago. I told God that it is His will and I pray strength to do all the work I need to do and be a good wife at the same time.)

My 2 cents.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 05:09:54 PM by IsmiLiora » Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,307


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2011, 05:14:25 PM »

"Why do you worship a bloodthirsty zombie? Why not just go with Kali?"

I was asked this at a Greekfest in Birmingham, AL. She may have been kidding, teasing, or whatever....but I am not so sure of that, unfortunately.
"Kali" means "beautiful" in Greek, so you never know.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,492



« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2011, 05:41:38 PM »

Orthonorm, I knew you were going somewhere with your earlier posts, I had no idea where, but I figured it was somewhere.  And darn you for giving me something to contemplate tonight that doesn't involve World of Tanks!
Logged
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2011, 06:53:38 PM »

"The very first Christians (a really long time ago), didn't actually believe in god. If there really is a god, no one follows what he'd really want. The majority of Christians in my opinion can't seem to accept other religions or gays (yet the bible says everyone should be accepted for who they are)."

Someone also sent me this


yep...
Logged

Forgive my sins.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2011, 07:26:24 PM »

"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan." 

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us.  What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer?  If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us?  Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did?  Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor.  But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses?  We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2011, 07:40:20 PM »

"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan." 

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us.  What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer?  If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us?  Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did?  Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor.  But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses?  We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

I might get back to this point. I think there is a huge disconnect in how people understand the litanies in general during Liturgy and "petitionary" prayer as we commonly might understand it in English.

I will get Aposphet's question, certainly.

But I really don't want to get into much arguing during the Fast, even in good spirit. (And a lot of my notes on stuff are being circulated. I have no idea where some of my stuff is.)

So, if it comes down to Patristic or verse mining, I am out. However, if we can stick to some I think generally held principles, it might be worth discussing.

But I fear we will have to stray into matters ontological and economic / providential, if we go far.

Have a good whatever-part-of-the-day-it-is-where-you-are-now, if I have time and the inclination to try to think this weekend or if work is slow, I might reply.

Good questions and points, certainly ones I anticipated.

Your catty catechumen,

orthonorm
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2011, 09:46:16 PM »

I genuinely am interested in your views, and so if you'd like a non-polemical discussion then I'm up for it (I'm not very good at quote mining anyways), but if you'd like to not so as to avoid breaking the fast, I completely understand.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
ilyazhito
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 852



« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2011, 10:24:17 PM »

Atheists have said that the "ritual practices" of Christianity are unnecessary, just do good deeds. I think that's BS
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,422


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2011, 10:51:31 PM »

This is an age-old criticism since almost Christianity began, that Christians secretly partake of cannabalism (secretly because no one but believers were allowed in at the point of the Eucharistic liturgy).  Now, it's just a polemical criticism of the Eucharist, said even by a few fringe Protestants.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 10:52:52 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2011, 11:45:40 PM »


* God requires you to speak in tongues


I've heard this one from Protestants.


One I heard is that the Bible says "There is no God." I suppose that's actually true, but it has a few words before and after (Psalms 14:1).
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,534



« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2011, 08:58:20 AM »

"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan." 

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us.  What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer?  If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us?  Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did?  Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor.  But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses?  We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

In addition, what do we make of all of the miraculous healings ascribed to Christ in the Gospels? Are we so weak in faith so as to reduce those stories to being spiritual allegory? What too is the purpose of Unction? Do we not anoint the sick with the hopes that God might have mercy on them and heal them in both body and soul (surely Unction is not performed merely for the purpose of some sort of symbolic healing)? If our God does not possess the power to heal human illness, then He also has no power over death, and our entire religion would therefore be false. We must have faith, in my opinion, that God can and does occasionally heal the sick and bring aid to the afflicted; although we cannot be sure of why some are helped and others are not, for that knowledge is God's alone to know.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2011, 02:11:12 PM »

"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan." 

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us.  What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer?  If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us?  Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did?  Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor.  But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses?  We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

In addition, what do we make of all of the miraculous healings ascribed to Christ in the Gospels? Are we so weak in faith so as to reduce those stories to being spiritual allegory? What too is the purpose of Unction? Do we not anoint the sick with the hopes that God might have mercy on them and heal them in both body and soul (surely Unction is not performed merely for the purpose of some sort of symbolic healing)? If our God does not possess the power to heal human illness, then He also has no power over death, and our entire religion would therefore be false. We must have faith, in my opinion, that God can and does occasionally heal the sick and bring aid to the afflicted; although we cannot be sure of why some are helped and others are not, for that knowledge is God's alone to know.

I have about 7.26 minutes free right now and maybe for the next few days.

Definitely, not going down the road of rhetoricals, which really only show you didn't read my post or are too lazy to put forth any reasonable argument of your own.

Nor am I going to argue points I didn't touch on.

The above is just a hysterical reaction to my words with no substantive content.

----------------------------------

To others who actually would like to discuss stuff, James for example.

I certainly understand my ideas might seem to be minority opinion and wrong, but I am not so sure once we get to brass tacks.

Again, I don't have the silly amount of "free time" for the next few days that I normally do and the above touch on a few threads I promised to follow up on. I am at a bit of a loss, as I have lent out a lot of my notes on things.

And of course, I couched my initial comments in a provocative manner.

But again as much I usually enjoy taking apart histrionics, I ain't going to now. And I am not going to get into a quote contest. And I am promise not to get too philosophical. To the degree I do, I promise to be concise and entertaining.

If anyone wants to start with the strongest criticism against my argument, it would be to criticize the Lord's Prayer, or at least as I parsed it. It certainly has nothing in there about praying for what much of this age finds to be "good." That includes "health" (yes I mean those scare quotes). (There is a good criticism of my parsing of it, which I acknowledge, but won't put for myself for the time being.)

That is THE framework of all prayer and the ONLY Christian prayer as such. All other prayers conform to its structure and content, to the extent they are Christian.

Thine not Mine.

 



Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2011, 02:20:27 PM »

Dear Aposphet,

I didn't say it is "bad" or "wrong" per se to pray for such things. I certainly ain't gonna look at someone whose child is dying and fervently praying for them to be healed and "correct" them.

My point is that we should be careful that petitionary prayer doesn't become the bulk of our prayer life. And I don't think the litanies are petitions per se. But that is something we may or may not get to.

I just want to make clear, lest I offend, that I don't mean to upbraid or make light of folks' suffering and they very understandable reaction to it.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,789



« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2011, 02:41:26 PM »

And I don't think the litanies are petitions per se.

I hear Fr. Thomas Hopko in the room...
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2011, 02:54:44 PM »

And I don't think the litanies are petitions per se.

I hear Fr. Thomas Hopko in the room...

He is sorta my spiritual grandfather.

So is that good or bad thing? //:=)
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2011, 03:06:05 PM »

You all do know that by publicly airing your pet peeves you're just giving me more ammunition for future debates, right? Grin

Not that I mean to sound ungrateful, I do appreciate the help. Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2011, 03:10:33 PM »

You all do know that by publicly airing your pet peeves you're just giving me more ammunition for future debates, right? Grin

Not that I mean to sound ungrateful, I do appreciate the help. Wink

I don't think you need the help.

EDIT: Realized that could be read poorly. I meant help in having reasonable arguments.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 03:11:31 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,375



« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2011, 03:12:30 PM »

You all do know that by publicly airing your pet peeves you're just giving me more ammunition for future debates, right? Grin

Not that I mean to sound ungrateful, I do appreciate the help. Wink

Nah, the stuff on this thread is too common and tame for you to use... you're the type of guy that likes to fashion his own cracy arguments  police
Logged

St. Basil is great!

Wonder if he drank goat's milk . . .
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2011, 04:20:49 PM »

I think above all we need to remember that the ultimate healing, the ultimate satisfaction, comes with the bodily resurrection. This is when all the promises come to fruition fully, "And He shall wipe every tear from their eyes..."

Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #70 on: August 06, 2011, 02:18:42 AM »

Dear Aposphet,

I didn't say it is "bad" or "wrong" per se to pray for such things. I certainly ain't gonna look at someone whose child is dying and fervently praying for them to be healed and "correct" them.

My point is that we should be careful that petitionary prayer doesn't become the bulk of our prayer life. And I don't think the litanies are petitions per se. But that is something we may or may not get to.

I just want to make clear, lest I offend, that I don't mean to upbraid or make light of folks' suffering and they very understandable reaction to it.


That is certainly a good point, that we not let our petitions become the chief part of our prayer, because prayer is meant to be about God and not about us.  But I have never heard the argument that litanies aren't petitions (perhaps because I've never really paid too much attention to Fr. Thomas Hopko?).  If anyone has a podcast or an essay or something on this view point, I'd be interested.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #71 on: August 06, 2011, 08:25:26 AM »

You all do know that by publicly airing your pet peeves you're just giving me more ammunition for future debates, right? Grin

Not that I mean to sound ungrateful, I do appreciate the help. Wink

Please pursue the "mushroom god" line of thinking, that would be the most entertaining path you could take.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #72 on: August 06, 2011, 03:58:22 PM »

You all do know that by publicly airing your pet peeves you're just giving me more ammunition for future debates, right? Grin

Not that I mean to sound ungrateful, I do appreciate the help. Wink

Please pursue the "mushroom god" line of thinking, that would be the most entertaining path you could take.

That would definitely be one of the more difficult positions to argue...it has the disadvantage of not merely being wrong, but also being absurd. Though I'll see if I can work it into an argument at some point...maybe I can make it work if we get thread about Christianity and drug use. Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
PeaceSerenity
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 76



« Reply #73 on: August 06, 2011, 03:59:09 PM »

I'm always amused when non-Christians refer to Jesus as "Christ" while their busy denying His existence or divinity or whatever Smiley
Logged
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #74 on: August 06, 2011, 04:19:55 PM »

My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #75 on: August 06, 2011, 04:25:48 PM »

My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?
The Church, enemy attestation, eyewitness accounts, conversions to Christianity, etc.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #76 on: August 06, 2011, 04:31:42 PM »

My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?
The Church, enemy attestation, eyewitness accounts, conversions to Christianity, etc.

enemy attestation whom?

eyewitness acounts whom?

conversions to Christianity whom?
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2011, 04:35:58 PM »

My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?

No direct evidence, just postmortem references and accounts, most second or third hand. But it seems more probable that the religion was based on one of the many Jewish spiritual gurus of the time, which were quite commonplace, than an entire life and biography and back story being made up by the first Christians. Without additional evidence, the simpler explanation is more likely to be the correct one.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #78 on: August 06, 2011, 04:37:25 PM »

My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?

No direct evidence, just postmortem references and accounts, most second or third hand. But it seems more probable that the religion was based on one of the many Jewish spiritual gurus of the time, which were quite commonplace, than an entire life and biography and back story being made up by the first Christians. Without additional evidence, the simpler explanation is more likely to be the correct one.

And which is the simpler explanation?
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2011, 04:49:14 PM »

No direct evidence,
The Church

Quote
just postmortem references and accounts, most second or third hand.
Appointing 70 disciples, St Paul's conversion, St James' conversion, and other first hand accounts.

Quote
But it seems more probable that the religion was based on one of the many Jewish spiritual gurus of the time, which were quite commonplace,
Yet Jesus claimed divinity so either he was truly divine or a fool. And he spoke unlike the srcibes and priests of his day.

Quote
than an entire life and biography and back story being made up by the first Christians.
Proof for this assertion?
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2011, 04:56:56 PM »

proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?

Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2011, 05:00:07 PM »

My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?

No direct evidence, just postmortem references and accounts, most second or third hand. But it seems more probable that the religion was based on one of the many Jewish spiritual gurus of the time, which were quite commonplace, than an entire life and biography and back story being made up by the first Christians. Without additional evidence, the simpler explanation is more likely to be the correct one.

I never said it is ridiculous to say there is no evidence Christianity is true, only that there is no evidence Jesus called Christ ever existed.

The first proposition is tolerable, the second is just stupid and unworthy of the oft-clever people who come out with it.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2011, 05:01:30 PM »

proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?

I am about to head off to the snowy regions of New South Wales, but I will return to this if you will permit me.

If you are of the "there's no evidence Jesus ever existed" camp, you are certainly not amongst the mainstream of historians.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2011, 05:03:58 PM »

proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?

I am about to head off to the snowy regions of New South Wales, but I will return to this if you will permit me.

If you are of the "there's no evidence Jesus ever existed" camp, you are certainly not amongst the mainstream of historians.

I am of the camp of reason... I am an Orthodox, losing faith...

btw i need strenght and prayers, pls pray for me..
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #84 on: August 06, 2011, 05:13:56 PM »

We have physical evidence of Christianity by way of icons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos#The_house_church

Still trying to find that ialmisry quote regarding Christianity being illegal before the edict of Milan, it was a very good quote.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #85 on: August 06, 2011, 05:34:17 PM »

proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?

I am about to head off to the snowy regions of New South Wales, but I will return to this if you will permit me.

If you are of the "there's no evidence Jesus ever existed" camp, you are certainly not amongst the mainstream of historians.

I am of the camp of reason... I am an Orthodox, losing faith...

btw i need strenght and prayers, pls pray for me..

Check out this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31711.0.html
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,534



« Reply #86 on: August 06, 2011, 06:13:21 PM »

"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan." 

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us.  What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer?  If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us?  Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did?  Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor.  But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses?  We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

In addition, what do we make of all of the miraculous healings ascribed to Christ in the Gospels? Are we so weak in faith so as to reduce those stories to being spiritual allegory? What too is the purpose of Unction? Do we not anoint the sick with the hopes that God might have mercy on them and heal them in both body and soul (surely Unction is not performed merely for the purpose of some sort of symbolic healing)? If our God does not possess the power to heal human illness, then He also has no power over death, and our entire religion would therefore be false. We must have faith, in my opinion, that God can and does occasionally heal the sick and bring aid to the afflicted; although we cannot be sure of why some are helped and others are not, for that knowledge is God's alone to know.

I have about 7.26 minutes free right now and maybe for the next few days.

Definitely, not going down the road of rhetoricals, which really only show you didn't read my post or are too lazy to put forth any reasonable argument of your own.

Nor am I going to argue points I didn't touch on.

The above is just a hysterical reaction to my words with no substantive content.

----------------------------------

To others who actually would like to discuss stuff, James for example.

I certainly understand my ideas might seem to be minority opinion and wrong, but I am not so sure once we get to brass tacks.

Again, I don't have the silly amount of "free time" for the next few days that I normally do and the above touch on a few threads I promised to follow up on. I am at a bit of a loss, as I have lent out a lot of my notes on things.

And of course, I couched my initial comments in a provocative manner.

But again as much I usually enjoy taking apart histrionics, I ain't going to now. And I am not going to get into a quote contest. And I am promise not to get too philosophical. To the degree I do, I promise to be concise and entertaining.

If anyone wants to start with the strongest criticism against my argument, it would be to criticize the Lord's Prayer, or at least as I parsed it. It certainly has nothing in there about praying for what much of this age finds to be "good." That includes "health" (yes I mean those scare quotes). (There is a good criticism of my parsing of it, which I acknowledge, but won't put for myself for the time being.)

That is THE framework of all prayer and the ONLY Christian prayer as such. All other prayers conform to its structure and content, to the extent they are Christian.

Thine not Mine.


My argument was that asking God for our well-being is integral to our faith. If we do not believe that God can provide for our well-being, then we cannot possibly believe that He can resurrect us from the dead. Given, there are times when God has another plan for us and does not answer our petitions, but it cannot hurt to ask God for help in times of hardship. I don't find anything particularly pagan about that. Sure, we shouldn't bargain with God, but what is particularly pagan about asking for help? Then again, what do I know, since apparently I'm too lazy to make a reasonable argument.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 06:14:13 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,923


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #87 on: August 06, 2011, 07:29:56 PM »

proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



A bowl of clay have been found in Egypt dating back to the first century on which there stand "BY Christ the magician" It was supposedlu made by a local magician who had heard of Christ and his miracles and tried to use his name to convince his customers about his "supernatural" powers.

Here is a link:
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/10/14/inscription-with-christ-found-on-bowl-in-alexandria.aspx

Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,307


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #88 on: August 06, 2011, 10:33:51 PM »

proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



A bowl of clay have been found in Egypt dating back to the first century on which there stand "BY Christ the magician" It was supposedlu made by a local magician who had heard of Christ and his miracles and tried to use his name to convince his customers about his "supernatural" powers.
Well, some of the first Christians were the 'magical' magi.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #89 on: August 06, 2011, 10:40:14 PM »

My personal favourite is "Jesus Christ probably never existed".

what proof is there that He existed?

Richard Dawkins says he probably existed for pete's sake.

G. R. S. Mead and Ellegard argued that the Gospel Jesus is a myth based on an earlier historical person described in the Talmud or Dead Sea Scrolls. (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/rmsbrg00.htm#CONTENTS) (The God Delusion (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, pg 97))
Logged

Forgive my sins.
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #90 on: August 06, 2011, 10:40:15 PM »

enemy attestation whom?

eyewitness acounts whom?

conversions to Christianity whom?

There's more evidence for him existing than not existing.
Logged

Forgive my sins.
Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #91 on: August 06, 2011, 10:51:45 PM »

proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



Quite a bit. Many of the Apocrypha mention him, often focusing on him.

If you're making the common secular demand for non-religious works that speak of him (I believe Josephus mentions him), you should realize that you're asking for, he was a religious figure and everything speaking of him is going to have that tinge.

It would be like asking for evidence of Octavius from non-political writings, or Julius Caesar from non-military-political sources. I doubt you'll find many non-religious sources that mention Mohammed either.

In fact for the first two of those very important historical figures, the amount of evidence for their existence is far less than for Christ (I have no idea about Mohammed, I'd assume about the same), so if you want to take the position that there is no acceptable evidence that Jesus ever lived, you must of necessity doubt the existence of every historical figure before 1500, and many after.
Logged
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2011, 03:25:42 AM »

proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



Quite a bit. Many of the Apocrypha mention him, often focusing on him.

If you're making the common secular demand for non-religious works that speak of him (I believe Josephus mentions him), you should realize that you're asking for, he was a religious figure and everything speaking of him is going to have that tinge.

It would be like asking for evidence of Octavius from non-political writings, or Julius Caesar from non-military-political sources. I doubt you'll find many non-religious sources that mention Mohammed either.

In fact for the first two of those very important historical figures, the amount of evidence for their existence is far less than for Christ (I have no idea about Mohammed, I'd assume about the same), so if you want to take the position that there is no acceptable evidence that Jesus ever lived, you must of necessity doubt the existence of every historical figure before 1500, and many after.

religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...

Mohammed afaik has more historical validity than Jesus.He was an historic figure, involved in military campaigns.
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #93 on: August 07, 2011, 03:40:26 AM »

Josephus was Jewish...
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #94 on: August 07, 2011, 03:42:42 AM »

religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...


Here is a Wiki site which will get you started with investigating the historical evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #95 on: August 07, 2011, 04:05:00 AM »

religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...


Here is a Wiki site which will get you started with investigating the historical evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Father if I may add, certain saints like Jerome placed their own misguided pride over the judgment of the Church which in turn would cause a think tank like the Jesus Seminar to come. What I mean by this instead of looking to the LXX for the OT which was approved by the Church, Hebrews, etc to create the Vulgate he instead looked to the Jews of his day for assistance, like the Masoretic text.. So consequently because of his poor scholarship, it's as if the Church couldn't be trusted for one man's voice superseded that of the Church. And of course certain other figures were just adding more fuel to the fire to further create a schism between both western and eastern churches culminating to the Great Schism.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,769


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #96 on: August 07, 2011, 04:13:29 AM »

proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?


Have you considered that the New Testament is 27 separate documents that were only later accumulated into one text?

Because many odd people today consider "the Bible" to constitute a single ancient source.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 04:13:39 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #97 on: August 07, 2011, 09:40:58 AM »

proofs outside the Bible regarding Jesus ?



Quite a bit. Many of the Apocrypha mention him, often focusing on him.

If you're making the common secular demand for non-religious works that speak of him (I believe Josephus mentions him), you should realize that you're asking for, he was a religious figure and everything speaking of him is going to have that tinge.

It would be like asking for evidence of Octavius from non-political writings, or Julius Caesar from non-military-political sources. I doubt you'll find many non-religious sources that mention Mohammed either.

In fact for the first two of those very important historical figures, the amount of evidence for their existence is far less than for Christ (I have no idea about Mohammed, I'd assume about the same), so if you want to take the position that there is no acceptable evidence that Jesus ever lived, you must of necessity doubt the existence of every historical figure before 1500, and many after.

religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...

Mohammed afaik has more historical validity than Jesus.He was an historic figure, involved in military campaigns.
Josephus was Jewish and is considered a trustworthy source for events of his own lifetime such as those of Jesus' life. Real historians don't discount an entire source because it's "religious."


As for secular sources, Tacitus and possibly Suetonius both mention Jesus. Lucian also. Hardly sympathetic sources. Also significant is the fact that no early sceptic (Trypho, Celsus, Porphyry, etc.) was using the argument that Jesus never existed, otherwise the Christian apologetic literature would certainly reflect a rebuttal.

Then there is the Jewish Talmud, a hostile source, which again contains a denigrating treatment of Jesus but not a denial of his existence.
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #98 on: August 07, 2011, 09:46:26 AM »

religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...


Here is a Wiki site which will get you started with investigating the historical evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Father if I may add, certain saints like Jerome placed their own misguided pride over the judgment of the Church which in turn would cause a think tank like the Jesus Seminar to come. What I mean by this instead of looking to the LXX for the OT which was approved by the Church, Hebrews, etc to create the Vulgate he instead looked to the Jews of his day for assistance, like the Masoretic text.. So consequently because of his poor scholarship, it's as if the Church couldn't be trusted for one man's voice superseded that of the Church. And of course certain other figures were just adding more fuel to the fire to further create a schism between both western and eastern churches culminating to the Great Schism.
That's going a little too far imo. Yes, the Masoretic (which comes centuries after St. Jerome, though I'm guessing you mean its text family) is inferior but it's not so terrible as to throw the entire Church into doubt.

And AFAIK the Jesus Seminar paid little attention to manuscripts, mostly relying on the RSV, which many Orthodox teachers use.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 09:49:26 AM by Volnutt » Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,375



« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2011, 11:07:23 AM »

enemy attestation whom?

eyewitness acounts whom?

conversions to Christianity whom?

You're not going to find much, because there wasn't much, until far too late afterwards...
Logged

St. Basil is great!

Wonder if he drank goat's milk . . .
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #100 on: August 07, 2011, 01:13:49 PM »

religion won`t do... the most convincing evidences are the historical ones... Josephus won`t do eighter he was a christian.. impartial and neutral sources are that which are convincing...


Here is a Wiki site which will get you started with investigating the historical evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

from your link : There are Greco-Roman pagan passages relevant to Christianity in the works of three major non-Christian writers of the late 1st and early 2nd centuries – Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger. However, these are generally references to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus. Tacitus, in his Annals written c. 115, mentions Christus, without many historical details (see also: Tacitus on Jesus). There is an obscure reference to a Jewish leader called "Chrestus" in Suetonius. (According to Suetonius, chapter 25, there occurred in Rome, during the reign of emperor Claudius (c. AD 50), "persistent disturbances ... at the instigation of Chrestus".[66][67] Mention in Acts of "After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome."

Charles Guignebert (Professor of the History Of Christianity at the Sorbonne), while rejecting the Jesus Myth theory and feeling that the Epistles of Paul were sufficient to prove the historical existence of Jesus, said "all the pagan and Jewish testimonies, so-called, afford us no information of any value about the life of Jesus, nor even any assurance that he ever lived.
Logged
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,492



« Reply #101 on: August 07, 2011, 03:27:57 PM »

There are not a whole bunch of historical forces for Jesus...if you throw out the Bible.  Now, for your homework, find some contemporary sources for Alexander the Great.  There are probably more sources about Jesus than there are for Alexander the Great if you accept sources written hundreds of years after the fact.

(And the only people who debate whether Alexander existed believe that Aliens built the pyramids, Atlantis was a real place, and wear their pants on their head...to hold the tinfoil in place.  I hold people who don't believe Jesus existed in about the same regard...)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 03:28:09 PM by vamrat » Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #102 on: August 07, 2011, 03:31:38 PM »

There's more manuscripts of the NT than there are any other documents from antiquity.

If Christ never lived there would be no Church. Why would Jews be tortured and killed for something that was just a myth? And taken as a whole, Christianity must be the cruelest hoax ever invented if you subscribe that it was created.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #103 on: August 07, 2011, 04:57:12 PM »

And the only people who debate whether Alexander existed believe that Aliens built the pyramids...

They're space ships I tell ya!  Roll Eyes
Logged

Forgive my sins.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,375



« Reply #104 on: August 07, 2011, 06:28:28 PM »

Why would Jews be tortured and killed for something that was just a myth?

People die for abstract ideas and concepts all the time. It's amazing how pliable people are.
Logged

St. Basil is great!

Wonder if he drank goat's milk . . .
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #105 on: August 07, 2011, 08:24:55 PM »

Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,375



« Reply #106 on: August 07, 2011, 08:28:59 PM »

Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?

It was blasphemy, and they weren't restricted by modern ideas of freedom and sensitivity and all that stuff.
Logged

St. Basil is great!

Wonder if he drank goat's milk . . .
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #107 on: August 07, 2011, 08:38:53 PM »

Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?

It was blasphemy, and they weren't restricted by modern ideas of freedom and sensitivity and all that stuff.

Oh to be so unshackled!
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #108 on: August 07, 2011, 08:44:07 PM »

Why would Jews be tortured and killed for something that was just a myth?

People die for abstract ideas and concepts all the time. It's amazing how pliable people are.
But realistically speaking would someone honestly be crucified, behaded, tortured, etc for just an abstract idea or concept? Wouldn't the very act of being exposed to being killed immediately put into question how much veracity is in the claim that Christ rose from the dead?

I'm trying to picture the hysteria whence upon seeing the Risen Christ.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #109 on: August 07, 2011, 08:44:55 PM »

Charles Guignebert (Professor of the History Of Christianity at the Sorbonne), while rejecting the Jesus Myth theory and feeling that the Epistles of Paul were sufficient to prove the historical existence of Jesus, said "all the pagan and Jewish testimonies, so-called, afford us no information of any value about the life of Jesus, nor even any assurance that he ever lived.
I think he's smoking crack, but even if he's right, why don't agree with him re: Paul?
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #110 on: August 07, 2011, 10:02:44 PM »

Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?

It was blasphemy, and they weren't restricted by modern ideas of freedom and sensitivity and all that stuff.

Belief in a symbolic person was blasphemy?  Wouldn't it also, then, be blasphemy to think of Moses seeing the backside of God, given that God has no body?
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,375



« Reply #111 on: August 07, 2011, 10:08:01 PM »

Well yes, but why would the Jews have been outraged at other Jews believing in a symbolic person who was both God and man, and symbolically died and rose again.  At least, why would they be so outraged as to persecute the Christians?

It was blasphemy, and they weren't restricted by modern ideas of freedom and sensitivity and all that stuff.

Belief in a symbolic person was blasphemy?

Sure.

Quote
Wouldn't it also, then, be blasphemy to think of Moses seeing the backside of God, given that God has no body?

You'd think so, wouldn't ya? *shrugs* I can't explain people...
Logged

St. Basil is great!

Wonder if he drank goat's milk . . .
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,769


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #112 on: August 09, 2011, 03:11:34 AM »

It appears Asteriktos wants to avoid easy, unsatisfactory answers.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,769


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2014, 02:00:54 PM »


And if you are healed, then as St. John Chrysostom says (paraphrased) it is to suffer more for the Glory of God. To much is given, much is asked, and all that.


Do any of our Patristicians have the homily (or whatever) where this comes from?

I got curious as to what St. John was commenting on. It's one of the best things he said, IMO.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.3 seconds with 141 queries.