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Ben
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« on: June 25, 2004, 06:48:34 PM »

Canterbury backs updated Bible

A new translation of the Bible which seems to contradict traditional Christian beliefs on sex has been backed by the Archbishop of Canterbury. The book, entitled "Good as New", is aimed at refreshing the language and themes of the Bible for modern readers.

In the new version, St Paul's advice that men and women should marry is replaced with they should have a "regular partner".

Dr Rowan Williams says it is a book of "extraordinary power".

But the Church of England leader admitted many readers would be startled by its content.

The words of St Paul are likely to cause most controversy.

A passage from the standard version of his Letters to the Corinthians reads: "It is well for a man not to touch a woman.

"But because of the temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband."

In the Good As New version the same passage reads: "Some of you think the best way to cope with sex is for men and women to keep right away from each other.

"That is more likely to lead to sexual offences. My advice is for everyone to have a regular partner."

'Epidemic profusion'

St Paul gives stronger advice in another section of the Corinthians.

"There's nothing wrong with remaining single, like me. But if you know you have strong needs, get yourself a partner. Better than being frustrated," he says in the new version.

John Benson, the former Baptist minister who translated the new book, made terminology changes throughout the book, such as replacing "demon possession" with "mental illness".

Mr Benson also chose "God's new world" in place of "kingdom of God".

Dr Williams said he hoped the new translation would "spread in epidemic profusion through religious and irreligious alike".

"Instead of being taken into a specialised religious frame of reference... we have here a vehicle for thinking and worshiping that is fully earthed, recognisably about our humanity," he said.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3833693.stm
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2004, 03:14:52 AM »

Here's some more passages:



Mark 1:4

Authorized version: "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

New: "John, nicknamed 'The Dipper,' was 'The Voice.' He was in the desert, inviting people to be dipped, to show they were determined to change their ways and wanted to be forgiven."

Mark 1:10-11

Authorized version: "And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him. And there came a voice from the heaven saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

New: "As he was climbing up the bank again, the sun shone through a gap in the clouds. At the same time a pigeon flew down and perched on him. Jesus took this as a sign that God's spirit was with him. A voice from overhead was heard saying, 'That's my boy! You're doing fine!'"

Matthew 23:25

Authorized version: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!"

New version: "Take a running jump, Holy Joes, humbugs!"

Matthew 26:69-70

Authorized version: "Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, 'Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.' But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest."

New: "Meanwhile Rocky was still sitting in the courtyard. A woman came up to him and said: 'Haven't I seen you with Jesus, the hero from Galilee?" Rocky shook his head and said: 'I don't know what the hell you're talking about!'"


1 Corinthians 7:1-2

KJV: "Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: [It is] good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

New: "Some of you think the best way to cope with sex is for men and women to keep right away from each other. That is more likely to lead to sexual offences. My advice is for everyone to have a regular partner."

1 Corinthians 7:8-7

KJV: "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."

New: "If you know you have strong needs, get yourself a partner. Better than being fru
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2004, 09:01:42 AM »

 Huh Tongue
This New "Bible" sounds like something I vaguely remember from the Old "Bible" that in paraphrase  is 'even if angel of light appears with a new gospel..."

I hope it go to the trash like it so richly deserves---when will the revisionists stop trying to rewrite history to meet their own sinful ways?

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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2004, 11:06:31 AM »

Two things that occur to me: The, ahem, "translator" is a "former Baptist minister" what is he now and why is he "former"?  

I also would like to read the Archbishop's full statement, if there is one, rather then snippets.  Context is important.

(And imao this isn't a translation or even a paraphrase.  It's a wild rewrite and I wonder what ax is grinding.)

Ebor
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2004, 11:14:43 AM »

You're sure this isn't just some big joke?

We're supposed to take seriously a God who would say, "That's my boy!  You're doing fine!"  or   "Holy Joes, humbugs!"  Huh   And the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove is now a pigeon??  I can envision the change in the troparion...  it just doesn't sing very well with "pigeon"......

And does anyone take the Church of England seriously anymore???
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2004, 12:36:00 PM »

Gregory,

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And does anyone take the Church of England seriously anymore???

My sentiments exactly.

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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2004, 03:51:48 PM »

Like I said, We don't know exactly what Cantuar+ said and in what context and I doubt that this ah 'work' is *from* the C of E proper.

And some people do take the good things of Anglicanism seriously.

Ebor

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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2004, 09:37:08 PM »

The the new bible is a joke, it does deserve to be in the trash, but the Archbishop of Canterubury obviously disagrees, since he backed the bible and approved it. I really don't see why BBC would lie and say he did, if he didn't, and honestly it isn't really that surprising that he did.

The Anglican Church has just gone too far, I agree with Agustine and gregory, does anyone take the Church of England seriously anymore? And if anybody does, why?!
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2004, 12:16:24 AM »

Look, Ben, the article above has a couple of quotes from the Archbishop of Canterbury either incomplete or with ellipses.  So we don't know the Full Context of what he said. I'm trying to find the full statement, but haven't yet. So saying that the published remarks are incomplete is *not* saying that the BBC is "lying".  But it's not the full story. (I'm always suspicious of ellipses, it makes me wonder what was left out and *why*?  Reporters are not without viewpoints and bias of their own, sometimes.)

Just how much do you know about the Right Reverend Rowan Williams that you aren't "surprised"?  And how much do you really know about the Anglican Communion?  There are many people who take Anglicanism seriously.  People who care about it and are trying to keep it on the right track.  The Rt. Rev. Peter Akinola of Nigeria for one and there are many others who haven't given up yet.  

Why?  Maybe because it has taught them about God and worship and they have come to know the Lord of Life through it.  Just a thought.

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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2004, 01:14:46 AM »

Quote
Look, Ben, the article above has a couple of quotes from the Archbishop of Canterbury either incomplete or with ellipses.  So we don't know the Full Context of what he said. I'm trying to find the full statement, but haven't yet. So saying that the published remarks are incomplete is *not* saying that the BBC is "lying".  But it's not the full story. (I'm always suspicious of ellipses, it makes me wonder what was left out and *why*?  Reporters are not without viewpoints and bias of their own, sometimes.)

I never denied that it would be a good idea to find the Archbishop's statements on this new Bible, and in what way he "backed it". But BBC would not have said he did, if he didn't. And such a Bible honeslty shouldn't be supported or "backed" in anyway, and the fact the Archbishop of Canterbury has, is just another reason why Anglicanism shouldn't be taken seriously. Anything and everything goes! It doesn't take an expert to observe the Anglican communion over the past 40 years or so and see that anything and everything really does go!

Quote
Just how much do you know about the Right Reverend Rowan Williams that you aren't "surprised"?


Well I of course do not personally know Rev. Williams and I've never met him, but his actions speak for themselves:

He, in whatever context, has supported this absurd Bible, that is obviously playing down those parts of the Bible that aren't acceptable to the Pagan world. Hmm I wonder if this new Bible doesn't include the dozens of times we are told not to conform to this world and its evil ways.

He backs gay and lesbian clergy members (he has even openly admitted to ordaining one openly and active homosexual to the priesthood), supports women being ordained as bishops and also accepts divorced people re-marrying in church.

He has expressed his solidarity with the American Episcopal Church on gay rights issues, including the consencration of a openly and active homosexual priest to the episcopacy, on at least one occassion.

He has stated there is a case for "acknowledging faithful same-sex relationships."

Need I go on? He was known as a very liberal bishop from the moment he was elected, it is no secret.

Quote
And how much do you really know about the Anglican Communion?

Quite a lot, maybe not as much as you, but I certainly know enough about the history of the Anglican Church, esp its formation, and its core doctrines or beliefs to never ever become a member of the Anglican Communion. Believe it or not I almost became an Anglican, thank God I did some research before making such a decision.

Quote
People who care about it and are trying to keep it on the right track.  The Rt. Rev. Peter Akinola of Nigeria for one and there are many others who haven't given up yet.  


I am glad you guys have those who are trying to keep your Church on the right track, but unlike Orthodoxy and Catholicism, nothing is stoping the Anglican Church as a whole from abandoning basic Christian doctrine, morals, and values and embracing modernism, ecumenism, and liberalism.

Quote
Why?  Maybe because it has taught them about God and worship and they have come to know the Lord of Life through it.  Just a thought.

Diciples of Chirst (thats what I was before I became a Catholic) taught me a lot about God and really helped me to know Jesus personally, but I wasn't a member of the true Church, and there was no logical way for them to convince me that they were the or apart of the true Church. I just think that one should not just be a Lutheran, or an Anglican, or even a Catholic just because their Church taught them about God, everyone should strive to find the fullness of Christian truth, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2004, 10:25:27 AM »

... but I wasn't a member of the true Church...everyone should strive to find the fullness of Christian truth, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

But aren't you stil RC?
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2004, 12:53:52 AM »

Yes I am Tom, and I am searching for the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, perhaps I have already found it!

But I'm not going to just be RC because the RCC has taught me a great deal about God and has helped me in so many ways.

I am searching, and learning, who knows, I may just be in the true Church!

Only God knows, and I am trusting in Him.

But there is one thing I know for sure, after much study and prayer, the Anglican Communion is not the true Church, or some how apart of the true Church. To me it is very very clear, absolutely no doubt, history doesn't lie.
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2004, 07:28:03 AM »

Yes I am Tom, and I am searching for the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, perhaps I have already found it!

Has it come down to the RCC and the EO Church?

And if so, what more is left to understand about the differences between the 2 Churches that would allow you to make a decision?

You seem to understand things pretty well at this point.
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2004, 08:27:31 PM »

Yes it has come down to the EOC and the RCC. And I understand the differences pretty well, but just knowing the differences won't tell me much. God must lead me and place me in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. If I get ahead of myself and put my agenda first I will fail, I must submit to God on this one. Such a decision isn't made by just knowledge, but rather prayer and guidance from God.
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2004, 08:33:58 PM »

But there is one thing I know for sure, after much study and prayer, the Anglican Communion is not the true Church, or some how apart of the true Church. To me it is very very clear, absolutely no doubt, history doesn't lie.

But historians can...or at least write history to their own opinion if it suits them. That's why more then one source or viewpoint can be useful.

As for *knowing* things, no member of the Anglican Communion that I know of has ever claimed to be "The True Church".  It didn't suit you. You found the RC.  I hope that you will someday find the peace in your own church to not feel the need to slam others.

Ebor
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2004, 08:42:54 PM »


Quote
But historians can...or at least write history to their own opinion if it suits them. That's why more then one source or viewpoint can be useful.


As I said, I have done much study on the history of the Anglican Church. I don't know why you think that somwhow means I only read anti-Anglican sources, or didn't use more than one source. I am sorry but I am honestly not that stupid.

I would like to know why you assumed that I only used one source or viewpoint in my study of the history of the Anglican Communion? I must say, that is a little bit of a burn.

Quote
As for *knowing* things, no member of the Anglican Communion that I know of has ever claimed to be "The True Church".  It didn't suit you. You found the RC.  I hope that you will someday find the peace in your own church to not feel the need to slam others.

I never said that Anglican Communion claims to be the true Church. But I have yet to find a member of the Anglican Communion who doesn't say that they are somehow apart of the true Church.

And please how did I slam you?

I understand that you may be very defensive of your faith, but what have I said that was so offensive?

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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2004, 10:38:16 PM »

Yes it has come down to the EOC and the RCC. And I understand the differences pretty well, but just knowing the differences won't tell me much. God must lead me and place me in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. If I get ahead of myself and put my agenda first I will fail, I must submit to God on this one. Such a decision isn't made by just knowledge, but rather prayer and guidance from God.

Um, you've already put your agenda first.

I mean, supposing God directs you to an Episcopal parish? What do you do then? And before you say, "I know that'll never happen," think: do you know?
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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2004, 10:45:37 PM »

The Church of England is on its way to becoming just a memory.
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2004, 11:02:16 PM »

Keble, I almost became an Anglican, and I am most certainly sure that is not where God wants me. God has brought me to the point where I now am, a decision between the EOC and the RCC. But if God appears to me, or tells me somehow that I must be an Anglican, I will certainly obey. But unless something supernatural like that happens, I am sure I will not end up a member of the Anglican Communion. This is a conclusion I have come to after much prayer and study.
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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2004, 11:30:16 PM »

My remark about history and historians was a general maxim and observation.  History is what it is and what happened.  But human interpretations can colour, enhance or obscure. Sorry that you took it as personal.

Quote
But I have yet to find a member of the Anglican Communion who doesn't say that they are somehow apart of the true Church.

That's probably true. Why would we belong if we didn't believe that we are part of the "the blessed company of all faithful people" (BCP rite I)?  
Quote
And please how did I slam you?

I understand that you may be very defensive of your faith, but what have I said that was so offensive?

Very defensive is too strong, I think, for voicing a disagreement with others' views and my faith is Christian.  It's my Church that several here have declared pointless or on it's last legs. Well, we're not dead, yet.

I would suggest that if I were to post a news article about something peculiar/outre seemingly supported by an RC hierarch with a query of "does anyone takes that Church seriously any more?", you or other members of that body would be (justifiably) piqued.

Perhaps you have not noticed Keble's thread in Free-for-All on "Church Slamming".

Ebor

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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2004, 11:30:31 PM »

I do not like this translation as stated, nor do I have a comment regarding the Church of England, its outside my realm.

I do understand Ebor's position on further research.

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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2004, 11:34:36 PM »

Thank you, James, for your courtesy. restraint and understanding.

For the record, from the quotes given, I think the "Translation" ahem, eccentric paraphrase/rewrite is a load of dingoes kidneys.  Lest any think that because I do not immediately condemn Cantuar+ out of hand that I like it.

Ebor
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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2004, 11:51:46 PM »

Quote
I would suggest that if I were to post a news article about something peculiar/outre seemingly supported by an RC hierarch with a query of "does anyone takes that Church seriously any more?", you or other members of that body would be (justifiably) piqued.


Hmmm, well since I am a traditional Catholic I am fully aware that the vast majority of RC bishops, including that Pope, have done some really weird and stupid things -  I would be glad to list them..lol. I will not deny that my Church is in a huge crisis, so honestly if you posted such an article it would only strengthen my traditionalist beliefs.  Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2004, 12:09:59 AM »

And if it was a "traditionalist" hierarch that I thought was worthy of derision?  It depends, I suppose, on whose ox is gored.  But then, I wouldn't post such a thing so as to avoid not doing to others as I would have them do to me.

Ebor
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« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2004, 05:06:05 AM »

OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. This is so stupid.

Next thing, It'll be all right to call me an  alpaca when in truth, I'm actually a llama... Cheesy
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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2004, 07:36:21 AM »

Hmmm, well since I am a traditional Catholic I am fully aware that the vast majority of RC bishops, including that Pope, have done some really weird and stupid things -  I would be glad to list them..lol. I will not deny that my Church is in a huge crisis, so honestly if you posted such an article it would only strengthen my traditionalist beliefs.  Smiley

I'm so glad for you that everything works out in your favor. Now, can you stop and consider how your remarks apply to a communion in which the bonds of conformity are not nearly so high? After all, Rowan Williams is under no delusion that any other bishop is obligated to share his assessment of this (faugh) translation. On the other hand, I was under the apparently mistaken impression that a traditional Catholicv was bound to the tradition of believing what his bishops told him to believe.
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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2004, 09:07:34 PM »


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I'm so glad for you that everything works out in your favor.


Thanks!  Smiley

Quote
Now, can you stop and consider how your remarks apply to a communion in which the bonds of conformity are not nearly so high?


I think that is one of the major problems with the Anglican Communion, there is a huge lack of conformity, and really doctrinal and moral unity. And I think that is often why anything and everything goes in the Anglican Communion. There really isn't a source of authority that keeps the Anglican Church within the bounds of sanity.
 
Quote
On the other hand, I was under the apparently mistaken impression that a traditional Catholicv was bound to the tradition of believing what his bishops told him to believe.

You can not obey your bishop when he tells you to believe falsehood! When he contradicts the teaching of the Church! When your bishop embraces and teaches heresy, you are in no way obligated to believe whatever falsehoods may come out of his mouth.
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« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2004, 06:16:45 PM »

I read of this development a few days ago.

A thought or two. First, I recall a Moslem man who was very critical of Christians, as opposed to Christianity, very strongly focussing on the lengthy list of 'translations' of the Bible. Second, this latest offering appears to be a paraphrase and a poor literary and spiritual offering at that. Finally as I recall Bishop Raphael undertook a detailed study of Anglicanism and came to the conclusion that it was incompatible with Orthodoxy.

Sadly, Anglicanism seems to have move even further away. And the new Archbishop of Canterbury doing nothing to arrest the current!
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« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2004, 06:26:42 PM »

Finally as I recall Bishop Raphael undertook a detailed study of Anglicanism and came to the conclusion that it was incompatible with Orthodoxy.

Living in the west, I really do WANT to honor Anglicanism and its tradition, since it has traditionally been a western form of Christianity.  It joins Orthodoxy in not accepting the universal jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome.  But Saint Raphael's warning, as you cite above, was as relevant in the early 1900's as it is today......  the Anglican/Orthodox differences only grow more apparent with time.

This isn't "bashing" Anglicanism at all, it's pointing out that it's a lot more than just "western Orthodoxy."
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« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2004, 06:41:40 PM »

Quote
Living in the west, I really do WANT to honor Anglicanism and its tradition, since it has traditionally been a western form of Christianity.  It joins Orthodoxy in not accepting the universal jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome.  But Saint Raphael's warning, as you cite above, was as relevant in the early 1900's as it is today......  the Anglican/Orthodox differences only grow more apparent with time.

I'm in agreement with you here. I myself love the high anglo-catholic tradition. I like it just as much as eastern traditions. With the recent developments in the Anglican/Episcopal communion, I'm just wondering if there will be a mad dash to western rite orthodoxy. I would love to see the western rite grow much more where there could be atleast one in every big city.
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