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pasadi97
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« on: July 30, 2011, 06:00:50 PM »

This thread started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38174.msg612169.html#msg612169

- PtA




Circumcision: flesh belongs to God
Baptism: flesh and soul belongs to God

Eternal law of Noah. Destination Hell.
Eternal Law of Moses. Destination Hell.
Eternal Law of Jesus. Opens the gate to heaven Through baptism.

If you are neither circumcised neither baptised you are into Noahide law.
If you are circumcised, then you are people of God and can call God master. After this life destination Sheol aka Hell ...however without baptism looks like probably No haven.
If you are baptised that is dying as child of Adam thus dying for Noahide and Moses Laws and being born as child of God from God Holy spirit then New Law applies to you. God is Father to you and you should call God Father as in Our Father.

So if you have been circumcised after being baptized I don't know where you are. If you are circumcised before, then no problem I believe.

May God give salvation to you and your sons and to everybody on this site.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 12:53:02 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2011, 06:02:07 PM »



So if you have been circumcised after being baptized I don't know where you are.

fallen from grace (Gal 5)
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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2011, 06:02:44 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday?

Yes.  No fasting on Saturday, like Sunday.

Do you eat certain foods?
I won't eat blood.

Are christians circumcised?
This one and his sons are.
Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?
Matthew 5:17-20

who says matthew 5:17-20 is about the old law being in effect?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2011, 06:33:41 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday?

Yes.  No fasting on Saturday, like Sunday.

Do you eat certain foods?
I won't eat blood.

Are christians circumcised?
This one and his sons are.
Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?
Matthew 5:17-20

who says matthew 5:17-20 is about the old law being in effect?
Christ.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2011, 06:35:28 PM »

Circumcision: flesh belongs to God
Baptism: flesh and soul belongs to God

Eternal law of Noah. Destination Hell.
Eternal Law of Moses. Destination Hell.
Eternal Law of Jesus. Opens the gate to heaven Through baptism.

If you are neither circumcised neither baptised you are into Noahide law.
If you are circumcised, then you are people of God and can call God master. After this life destination Sheol aka Hell ...however without baptism looks like probably No haven.
If you are baptised that is dying as child of Adam thus dying for Noahide and Moses Laws and being born as child of God from God Holy spirit then New Law applies to you. God is Father to you and you should call God Father as in Our Father.

So if you have been circumcised after being baptized I don't know where you are. If you are circumcised before, then no problem I believe.

May God give salvation to you and your sons and to everybody on this site.
My, my.  Such an important piece of flesh that if you cut it off after baptism it nullifies baptism.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2011, 06:36:31 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday?

Yes.  No fasting on Saturday, like Sunday.

Do you eat certain foods?
I won't eat blood.

Are christians circumcised?
This one and his sons are.
Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?
Matthew 5:17-20

who says matthew 5:17-20 is about the old law being in effect?
Christ.

Tell me what was there to the Law for Christ to fulfill(pleroo) ?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2011, 06:38:31 PM »



So if you have been circumcised after being baptized I don't know where you are.

fallen from grace (Gal 5)
Oh dear.  Does St. Timothy know? Acts 16:3.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2011, 06:40:25 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday?

Yes.  No fasting on Saturday, like Sunday.

Do you eat certain foods?
I won't eat blood.

Are christians circumcised?
This one and his sons are.
Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?
Matthew 5:17-20

who says matthew 5:17-20 is about the old law being in effect?
Christ.

Tell me what was there to the Law for Christ to fulfill(pleroo) ?
All of it.

if you follow Marcion, you are truly lost.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2011, 06:41:28 PM »



So if you have been circumcised after being baptized I don't know where you are.

fallen from grace (Gal 5)
Oh dear.  Does St. Timothy know? Acts 16:3.

St Timothy was circumcised out of the fear for the jews.
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« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2011, 06:42:01 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday?

Yes.  No fasting on Saturday, like Sunday.

Do you eat certain foods?
I won't eat blood.

Are christians circumcised?
This one and his sons are.
Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?
Matthew 5:17-20

who says matthew 5:17-20 is about the old law being in effect?
Christ.

Tell me what was there to the Law for Christ to fulfill(pleroo) ?
All of it.

if you follow Marcion, you are truly lost.

for example?give examples..
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pasadi97
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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2011, 06:45:14 PM »

Again.

Moses did some instruction before he received the Old Law and before Judaism. Does it mean that judaism has to accept instruction of Moses while he was under Noahide laws? No.

Jesus was speaking with people under Moses Law . This was the context. There was no Church. After the New Law and Church the circumcision was deemed unnecessary by Church in acts of the Apostles.

You better speak with an Eastern orthodox Priest about circumcision after baptism.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 06:53:34 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2011, 07:00:30 PM »

Again.

Moses did some instruction before he received the Old Law and before Judaism. Does it mean that judaism has to accept instruction of Moses while he was under Noahide laws? No.

Jesus was speaking with people under Moses Law . This was the context. There was no Church. After the New Law and Church the circumcision was deemed unnecessary by Church in acts of the Apostles.

You better speak with an Eastern orthodox Priest about circumcision after baptism.
Why?  is he scared of a foreskin? Does he need one?

You aren't saying circumcision is unnecessary (which is Orthodox) but that it is forbidden, which is dangerously close to Marcionism.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2011, 07:02:30 PM »



So if you have been circumcised after being baptized I don't know where you are.

fallen from grace (Gal 5)
Oh dear.  Does St. Timothy know? Acts 16:3.
St Timothy was circumcised out of the fear for the jews.
Oh, and why wasn't St. Titus? Answer: St. Timothy was Hebrew, and St. Titus was a gentile.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 07:03:00 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
pasadi97
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« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2011, 07:07:11 PM »

Marcionism was an Early Christian dualist belief system that originated in the teachings of Marcion of Sinope at Rome around the year 144;[1] see also Christianity in the 2nd century.

Marcion believed Jesus Christ was the savior sent by God and Paul of Tarsus was his chief apostle, but he rejected the Hebrew Bible and the God of Israel (YHWH Elohim). Marcionists believed that the wrathful Hebrew God was a separate and lower entity than the all-forgiving God of the New Testament. This belief was in some ways similar to Gnostic Christian theology; notably, both are dualistic.

I said to speak with an Eastern orthodox Priest about this because I don't know all details.

Anyhow lets move on.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 07:09:20 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2011, 07:19:31 PM »

I won't eat blood.

My oh my, you are missing out on blood pudding. O.o
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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2011, 07:19:31 PM »

Are christians circumcised?
This one and his sons are.

Although I am circumcised, I know it isn't essential.

At the Council of Jerusalem it is clearly stated that we didn't have to follow most of Mosaic Law, including circumcision.
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2011, 10:12:34 PM »

GAL 5:1 Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and don't be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
GAL 5:2 Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.
GAL 5:3 Yes, I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
GAL 5:4 You are alienated from Christ, you who desire to be justified by the law. You have fallen away from grace.
GAL 5:5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.
GAL 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision amounts to anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith working through love.

I believe this is circumcision AFTER BAPTISM. An Eastern Orthodox Priest can tell as to what to do.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 10:17:26 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2011, 12:19:23 AM »

This is why ortho doxa that has right belief is important, however there should be a way to come back.
Several curses of the law. I don't know if anybody could keep the Law and from which Jesus saved us:
"DEUT 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if you will not listen to the voice of Yahweh your God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command you this day, that all these curses shall come on you, and overtake you.
DEUT 28:16 You shall be cursed in the city, and you shall be cursed in the field.
DEUT 28:17 Your basket and your kneading trough shall be cursed.
DEUT 28:18 The fruit of your body, the fruit of your ground, the increase of your livestock, and the young of your flock shall be cursed.
DEUT 28:19 You shall be cursed when you come in, and you shall be cursed when you go out.
DEUT 28:20 Yahweh will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke, in all that you put your hand to do, until you are destroyed, and until you perish quickly; because of the evil of your doings, by which you have forsaken me.
DEUT 28:21 Yahweh will make the pestilence cleave to you, until he has consumed you from off the land, where you go in to possess it.
DEUT 28:22 Yahweh will strike you with consumption, and with fever, and with inflammation, and with fiery heat, and with the sword, and with blight, and with mildew; and they shall pursue you until you perish.
DEUT 28:23 Your sky that is over your head shall be brass, and the earth that is under you shall be iron.
DEUT 28:24 Yahweh will make the rain of your land powder and dust: from the sky shall it come down on you, until you are destroyed.
DEUT 28:25 Yahweh will cause you to be struck before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them, and shall flee seven ways before them: and you shall be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth.
DEUT 28:26 Your dead body shall be food to all birds of the sky, and to the animals of the earth; and there shall be none to frighten them away.
DEUT 28:27 Yahweh will strike you with the boil of Egypt, and with the tumors, and with the scurvy, and with the itch, of which you can not be healed.
DEUT 28:28 Yahweh will strike you with madness, and with blindness, and with astonishment of heart;
DEUT 28:29 and you shall grope at noonday, as the blind gropes in darkness, and you shall not prosper in your ways: and you shall be only oppressed and robbed always, and there shall be none to save you.
DEUT 28:30 You shall betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: you shall build a house, and you shall not dwell therein: you shall plant a vineyard, and shall not use its fruit.
DEUT 28:31 Your ox shall be slain before your eyes, and you shall not eat of it: your donkey shall be violently taken away from before your face, and shall not be restored to you: your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have none to save you.
DEUT 28:32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people; and your eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day: and there shall be nothing in the power of your hand.
DEUT 28:33 The fruit of your ground, and all your labors, shall a nation which you don't know eat up; and you shall be only oppressed and crushed always;
DEUT 28:34 so that you shall be mad for the sight of your eyes which you shall see.
DEUT 28:35 Yahweh will strike you in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore boil, of which you can not be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head.
DEUT 28:36 Yahweh will bring you, and your king whom you shall set over you, to a nation that you have not known, you nor your fathers; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone.
DEUT 28:37 You shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all the peoples where Yahweh shall lead you away.
DEUT 28:38 You shall carry much seed out into the field, and shall gather little in; for the locust shall consume it.
DEUT 28:39 You shall plant vineyards and dress them, but you shall neither drink of the wine, nor gather [the grapes]; for the worm shall eat them.
DEUT 28:40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your borders, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olive shall cast [its fruit].
DEUT 28:41 You shall father sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity.
DEUT 28:42 All your trees and the fruit of your ground shall the locust possess.
"
Orthodox point of view, John Chrysostosm: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/23105.htm

Ver. 3. “Yea, I testify again to every man that receives circumcision that he is a debtor to do the whole Law.”

That you may not suppose that this is spoken from ill-will , I say not to you alone, he says, but to every one who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole Law. The parts of the Law are linked one to the other. As he who from being free has enrolled himself as a slave, no longer does what he pleases, but is bound by all the laws of slavery, so in the case of the Law, if you take upon you a small portion of it, and submit to the yoke, you draw down upon yourself its whole domination. And so it is in a worldly inheritance: he who touches no part of it, is free from all matters which are consequent on the heirship to the deceased, but if he takes a small portion, though not the whole, yet by that part he has rendered himself liable for every thing. And this occurs in the Law, not only in the way I have mentioned, but in another also, for Legal observances are linked together. For example; Circumcision has sacrifice connected with it, and the observance of days; sacrifice again has the observance both of day and of place; place has the details of endless purifications; purifications involve a perfect swarm of manifold observances. For it is unlawful for the unclean to sacrifice, to enter the holy shrines, to do any other such act. Thus the Law introduces many things even by the one commandment. If then you are circumcised, but not on the eighth day, or on the eighth day, but no sacrifice is offered, or a sacrifice is offered, but not in the prescribed place, or in the prescribed place, but not the accustomed objects, or if the accustomed objects, but thou be unclean, or if clean yet not purified by proper rules, every thing is frustrated. Wherefore he says, “that he is a debtor to the whole Law.” Fulfil not a part, but the whole, if the Law is of force; but if it be not of force, not even a part.

Ver. 4. “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the Law; you are fallen away from grace.”

Having established his point, he at length declares their danger of the severest punishment. When a man recurs to the Law, which cannot save him, and falls from grace, what remains but an inexorable retribution, the Law being powerless, and grace rejecting him?

Thus having aggravated their alarm, and disquieted their mind, and shown them all the shipwreck they were about to suffer, he opens to them the haven of grace which was near at hand. This is ever his wont, and he shows that in this quarter salvation is easy and secure, subjoining the words,


How did you get the idea to be circumcised after baptism. Is there a protestant doctrine you read or why so I can tell others not do the same.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 12:48:38 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2011, 01:02:57 AM »

So speak with an Eastern orthodox priest so he can do something for you. Like if you were confirmed the monks on Athos will baptize again not reciognizing just christmation or there should be something for this case.

So the idea is to avoid circumcision after baptism so people do not reenter under curses of the Law,
« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 01:11:18 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2011, 03:15:31 PM »

Eastern Orthodox faith is for eternity. In Heaven there is no Protestant church no Islam no nothing else . In heaven things will be crystal clear and no error of understanding will be there. SO by choosing Eastern orthodoxy you choose the best of the best from Earth.

Now know this. There is a sin from exiting the Church of Jesus. And Because Protestantism or Islam or Hinduiism don't have confession to erase sins, when you exit Eastern orthodox Faith and move to protestantism or Islam or hinduism or Yoga you prepare for Hell. why? again, to exit the Church is sin and without confession how can you erase it. Sob after baptism in Eastern orthodox Church no circumcision no Protestantism no nothing else until you go to Eastern orthodox Church in Heaven for ETERNITY. This is it. Eastern Orthodox Chuch is FOR EVER. THERE IS NO WAY BACK .

Curse of the Old Law in Protestant Language: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbhwwa_the-curse-of-the-law-by-timothy-ste_people

Born again mean baptism since is born from water . It does not mean saying several words.

On the other way, if you remain in protestantism can be for eternity too because not taking Eternal Life because Proetstantism renounced to it may cost you. Religion in general isn for eternity and in choosing your religion isn good to do both searching and parying to God.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 03:46:14 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2011, 03:28:18 PM »

GAL 5:1 Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and don't be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
GAL 5:2 Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.
GAL 5:3 Yes, I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
GAL 5:4 You are alienated from Christ, you who desire to be justified by the law. You have fallen away from grace.
GAL 5:5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.
GAL 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision amounts to anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith working through love.

I believe this is circumcision AFTER BAPTISM. An Eastern Orthodox Priest can tell as to what to do.


So what will he tell St. Paul, who circumcized St. Timothy after baptism?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2011, 03:51:34 PM »

This is why ortho doxa that has right belief is important, however there should be a way to come back.
Several curses of the law. I don't know if anybody could keep the Law and from which Jesus saved us:
"DEUT 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if you will not listen to the voice of Yahweh your God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command you this day, that all these curses shall come on you, and overtake you.
DEUT 28:16 You shall be cursed in the city, and you shall be cursed in the field.
DEUT 28:17 Your basket and your kneading trough shall be cursed.
DEUT 28:18 The fruit of your body, the fruit of your ground, the increase of your livestock, and the young of your flock shall be cursed.
DEUT 28:19 You shall be cursed when you come in, and you shall be cursed when you go out.
DEUT 28:20 Yahweh will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke, in all that you put your hand to do, until you are destroyed, and until you perish quickly; because of the evil of your doings, by which you have forsaken me.
DEUT 28:21 Yahweh will make the pestilence cleave to you, until he has consumed you from off the land, where you go in to possess it.
DEUT 28:22 Yahweh will strike you with consumption, and with fever, and with inflammation, and with fiery heat, and with the sword, and with blight, and with mildew; and they shall pursue you until you perish.
DEUT 28:23 Your sky that is over your head shall be brass, and the earth that is under you shall be iron.
DEUT 28:24 Yahweh will make the rain of your land powder and dust: from the sky shall it come down on you, until you are destroyed.
DEUT 28:25 Yahweh will cause you to be struck before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them, and shall flee seven ways before them: and you shall be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth.
DEUT 28:26 Your dead body shall be food to all birds of the sky, and to the animals of the earth; and there shall be none to frighten them away.
DEUT 28:27 Yahweh will strike you with the boil of Egypt, and with the tumors, and with the scurvy, and with the itch, of which you can not be healed.
DEUT 28:28 Yahweh will strike you with madness, and with blindness, and with astonishment of heart;
DEUT 28:29 and you shall grope at noonday, as the blind gropes in darkness, and you shall not prosper in your ways: and you shall be only oppressed and robbed always, and there shall be none to save you.
DEUT 28:30 You shall betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: you shall build a house, and you shall not dwell therein: you shall plant a vineyard, and shall not use its fruit.
DEUT 28:31 Your ox shall be slain before your eyes, and you shall not eat of it: your donkey shall be violently taken away from before your face, and shall not be restored to you: your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have none to save you.
DEUT 28:32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people; and your eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day: and there shall be nothing in the power of your hand.
DEUT 28:33 The fruit of your ground, and all your labors, shall a nation which you don't know eat up; and you shall be only oppressed and crushed always;
DEUT 28:34 so that you shall be mad for the sight of your eyes which you shall see.
DEUT 28:35 Yahweh will strike you in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore boil, of which you can not be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head.
DEUT 28:36 Yahweh will bring you, and your king whom you shall set over you, to a nation that you have not known, you nor your fathers; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone.
DEUT 28:37 You shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all the peoples where Yahweh shall lead you away.
DEUT 28:38 You shall carry much seed out into the field, and shall gather little in; for the locust shall consume it.
DEUT 28:39 You shall plant vineyards and dress them, but you shall neither drink of the wine, nor gather [the grapes]; for the worm shall eat them.
DEUT 28:40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your borders, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olive shall cast [its fruit].
DEUT 28:41 You shall father sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity.
DEUT 28:42 All your trees and the fruit of your ground shall the locust possess.
"
Orthodox point of view, John Chrysostosm: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/23105.htm

Ver. 3. “Yea, I testify again to every man that receives circumcision that he is a debtor to do the whole Law.”

That you may not suppose that this is spoken from ill-will , I say not to you alone, he says, but to every one who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole Law. The parts of the Law are linked one to the other. As he who from being free has enrolled himself as a slave, no longer does what he pleases, but is bound by all the laws of slavery, so in the case of the Law, if you take upon you a small portion of it, and submit to the yoke, you draw down upon yourself its whole domination. And so it is in a worldly inheritance: he who touches no part of it, is free from all matters which are consequent on the heirship to the deceased, but if he takes a small portion, though not the whole, yet by that part he has rendered himself liable for every thing. And this occurs in the Law, not only in the way I have mentioned, but in another also, for Legal observances are linked together. For example; Circumcision has sacrifice connected with it, and the observance of days; sacrifice again has the observance both of day and of place; place has the details of endless purifications; purifications involve a perfect swarm of manifold observances. For it is unlawful for the unclean to sacrifice, to enter the holy shrines, to do any other such act. Thus the Law introduces many things even by the one commandment. If then you are circumcised, but not on the eighth day, or on the eighth day, but no sacrifice is offered, or a sacrifice is offered, but not in the prescribed place, or in the prescribed place, but not the accustomed objects, or if the accustomed objects, but thou be unclean, or if clean yet not purified by proper rules, every thing is frustrated. Wherefore he says, “that he is a debtor to the whole Law.” Fulfil not a part, but the whole, if the Law is of force; but if it be not of force, not even a part.

Ver. 4. “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the Law; you are fallen away from grace.”

Having established his point, he at length declares their danger of the severest punishment. When a man recurs to the Law, which cannot save him, and falls from grace, what remains but an inexorable retribution, the Law being powerless, and grace rejecting him?

Thus having aggravated their alarm, and disquieted their mind, and shown them all the shipwreck they were about to suffer, he opens to them the haven of grace which was near at hand. This is ever his wont, and he shows that in this quarter salvation is easy and secure, subjoining the words,


How did you get the idea to be circumcised after baptism. Is there a protestant doctrine you read or why so I can tell others not do the same.
So are you saying that St. Paul didn't practice what he preached?
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« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2011, 05:09:22 PM »

So what will he tell St. Paul, who circumcized St. Timothy after baptism?

ialmisry, do you reject the Council of Jerusalem?
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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2011, 05:47:25 PM »

He circumcised Thymoty not as to put him under Old Law however as to win Jews. So I don't know how would be the circumcision different in 2 cases.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210134.htm
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« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2011, 05:57:10 PM »

So what will he tell St. Paul, who circumcized St. Timothy after baptism?

ialmisry, do you reject the Council of Jerusalem?
No, why would I do that?  What gave you that idea?
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« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2011, 06:07:15 PM »

So speak with an Eastern orthodox priest so he can do something for you.

What in particular does he need to do for whom?
Like if you were confirmed the monks on Athos will baptize again not reciognizing just christmation or there should be something for this case.
So one should go disobey their bishops, and implicate Athonite monks in this disobedience?

So the idea is to avoid circumcision after baptism so people do not reenter under curses of the Law,
I was never informed that the grace of baptism was concentrated in the foreskin, so it is lost if it is cut off.  Where does it concentrate in woman's body?
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« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2011, 06:13:45 PM »

Is pasadi even Orthodox? His posts seem to me on the contrary.
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« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2011, 06:16:31 PM »

Did you tell your priest about circumcision after baptism?

He would know what to do in this case .
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« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2011, 06:25:12 PM »

Did you tell your priest about circumcision after baptism?

He would know what to do in this case or if there is anything to do.
Unless one is converting to Judaism or Islam, there is nothing that there needs to be done.
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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2011, 06:57:28 PM »

I understand what you are saying. You are saying that circumcision as part of conversion can be the problem and if there is no conversion then no problem.
For peace of mind I woul ask priest however lets move on.
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« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2011, 07:21:35 PM »

Btw, besides the Greeks, Georgians, Armenians and, outside of Orthodoxy, the Nestorians and Maronites, all the Christians in the Middle East circumcize.  The Protestants, as usual, do whatever.
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« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2011, 07:26:10 PM »

I did not know that. In Romania that would be unusual.
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« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2011, 07:28:06 PM »

Btw, besides the Greeks, Georgians, Armenians and, outside of Orthodoxy, the Nestorians and Maronites, all the Christians in the Middle East circumcize.  The Protestants, as usual, do whatever.
Is there still a doctrinal reason for circumcision nowadays?
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« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2011, 07:48:31 PM »

Btw, besides the Greeks, Georgians, Armenians and, outside of Orthodoxy, the Nestorians and Maronites, all the Christians in the Middle East circumcize.  The Protestants, as usual, do whatever.
Is there still a doctrinal reason for circumcision nowadays?

In my opinion, anyone who puts forward a doctrinal reason for circumcision is a judaizer and heretic.

I don't think Isa's defence of circumcision rises so high: he merely defends the cultural practice of his people from those who would mistakenly use the Apostle Paul to argue that it is not only unnecessary but necessarily prohibited.
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« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2011, 08:31:53 PM »

Btw, besides the Greeks, Georgians, Armenians and, outside of Orthodoxy, the Nestorians and Maronites, all the Christians in the Middle East circumcize.  The Protestants, as usual, do whatever.
Is there still a doctrinal reason for circumcision nowadays?
No.

The Copts say they do it as a sign that the Chosen People triumphed through the Messiah over the nations.  They are very careful, however, to ALWAYS circumcize before baptism. Some would even say that to reverse the order would invalidate the baptism.

The Arab Orthodox do it because Abraham circumcized Ishmael.

The Ethiopians do it because of their Hebrew origins.

I don't know why the Syriac Orthodox do it.
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« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2011, 08:36:44 PM »

I did not know that. In Romania that would be unusual.
Yes, but not unknown: my Romanian nephew almost was circumcized when he continually got chronic infections.

Most Christian men I think are circumcized or not shortly after birth and before baptism.  I know only a few exceptions, where a boy got concerned about looking different, or when a woman required it before marriage.
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« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2011, 08:37:54 PM »

Btw, besides the Greeks, Georgians, Armenians and, outside of Orthodoxy, the Nestorians and Maronites, all the Christians in the Middle East circumcize.  The Protestants, as usual, do whatever.
Is there still a doctrinal reason for circumcision nowadays?

In my opinion, anyone who puts forward a doctrinal reason for circumcision is a judaizer and heretic.

I don't think Isa's defence of circumcision rises so high: he merely defends the cultural practice of his people from those who would mistakenly use the Apostle Paul to argue that it is not only unnecessary but necessarily prohibited.
Exactly.
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« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2011, 09:46:42 PM »

So what will he tell St. Paul, who circumcized St. Timothy after baptism?

ialmisry, do you reject the Council of Jerusalem?
No, why would I do that?  What gave you that idea?

Maybe I got the wrong idea, but I thought you were telling people they need to be circumcised and Mosaic Law is still in force.
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« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2011, 09:46:44 PM »

Btw, besides the Greeks, Georgians, Armenians and, outside of Orthodoxy, the Nestorians and Maronites, all the Christians in the Middle East circumcize.  The Protestants, as usual, do whatever.

But you aren't required to do so.
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« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2011, 11:25:38 PM »

Sure you are not required to be circumcised. I can see this happening to Arabs because Arabs come from Ishmael son of Abraham and Abraham while not being under Mosaic Law has circumcised his sons.

Apostle Paul said this:
GAL 5:2 Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.
I did not hear until now in Romania or in the World about circumcized christians. I can see now at Arabs doing this to affirm being sons of Abraham not as part of Old Law.
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« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2011, 03:07:53 AM »

So...wait...somewhere above someone mentioned that the monks talk to St. Mary face to face.....or did I totally misread that?
PP
No you heard it well.
Even in Romania I was told by a monk there are several monks that saw Saint Mary.
Here a monk saw Holy Trinity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcFHVhhwgq8 min 4:50
Here Mother of God appeared and left a footprint in rock on Moldavia monastery min 1:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV6eQLLjwS4
Here a monk staying for 20 years in wilderness say that is possible to speak with God: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7kreDRzgQ

Stages of prayer: http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/rugaciune.htm in romanian by Elder Cleopa that you saw in a movie above and that I met personally.
Stage 1. prayer of lips
Stage 2. prayer of mind
Stage 3. prayer of heart, When mind goes into hearth. Maybe 1 in 10 000 go here.
Stage 4. self moving prayer when hearth prays itself. Maybe one in nation may be here. This is what I believe that hermit above was speaking about.
Stage 5. vision prayer. Who has this prayer has opening the eye of soul and can see the other world, angels, past, future, sins, everywhere on Earth,.
Stage 6. Extasy prayer when hands and face glowes like fire, mind goes to Heaven like prayer of St Elijah
Stage 7. Spiritual prayer when man is taken to Heaven and sees heaven. This is Union withb God from this life if I understand correctly.

The stages I took them from romanian text above. Or here I post it again: http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/rugaciune.htm

Claiming to see the Trinity implies that the monk in question could very well be lying. No one has seen the Father but He who is from the Father. The Father can not be seen by us because the Father doesn't have a physical body.
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« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2011, 03:07:54 AM »

Btw, besides the Greeks, Georgians, Armenians and, outside of Orthodoxy, the Nestorians and Maronites, all the Christians in the Middle East circumcize.  The Protestants, as usual, do whatever.
Is there still a doctrinal reason for circumcision nowadays?

In my opinion, anyone who puts forward a doctrinal reason for circumcision is a judaizer and heretic.

I don't think Isa's defence of circumcision rises so high: he merely defends the cultural practice of his people from those who would mistakenly use the Apostle Paul to argue that it is not only unnecessary but necessarily prohibited.
Exactly.

Ah, for cultural reasons, okay, gotcha.  Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2011, 03:14:30 AM »

He is not lying. Father can assume physical body as it was assumed when Holy Trinity visited Abraham. Yes for cultural reasons to show they descend from Ishmael son of Abraham that ciorcumcised BEFORE Old Law, not as a part of Old Law. If so many Arab Christians do circumcision to show they came from Ishmael, probably this was analyzed by their priests.
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« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2011, 01:03:50 PM »

Quote
Claiming to see the Trinity implies that the monk in question could very well be lying. No one has seen the Father but He who is from the Father. The Father can not be seen by us because the Father doesn't have a physical body

Although I wont say he is lying, a certain amount of embellishment is possible   Wink

Quote
He is not lying. Father can assume physical body as it was assumed when Holy Trinity visited Abraham
From what I remember, Abraham looked at God after he passed, not Him in the face.

PP
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« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2011, 03:20:48 PM »

Holy Trinity came and ate or discussed at Abraham table at Mamvri oak. Genesis 18:1-8
GEN 18:1 Yahweh appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day.
GEN 18:2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and saw that three men stood opposite him. When he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the earth,
GEN 18:3 and said, "My lord, if now I have found favor in your sight, please don't go away from your servant.
GEN 18:4 Now let a little water be fetched, wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree.
GEN 18:5 I will get a morsel of bread so you can refresh your heart. After that you may go your way, now that you have come to your servant." They said, "Very well, do as you have said."
GEN 18:6 Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, "Quickly make ready three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes."
GEN 18:7 Abraham ran to the herd, and fetched a tender and good calf, and gave it to the servant. He hurried to dress it.
GEN 18:8 He took butter, milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them. He stood by them under the tree, and they ate.
GEN 18:9 They said to him, "Where is Sarah, your wife? He said, "See, in the tent."
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