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Author Topic: Portland RCC Diocese Files Ch. 11  (Read 2852 times) Average Rating: 0
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Elisha
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« on: July 06, 2004, 02:40:05 PM »

This certainly supports spartacus's theory:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040706/ap_on_re_us/archdiocese_bankruptcy_2
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2004, 04:08:04 PM »

I am sad to be correct on this matter. Portland is just the first. Many more will follow. Look for RCC Diocese to start selling off holdings all over the place, cancelling new building plans, and asking parishioners to dig even deeper. Despite how Catholics spin what happens, the RCC is very unhealthy now both spiritutally and financially.

The RCC in the U.S. is not as rich as people think it is. It can not last long under this continued legal assault, that shows no sign of ending anytime soon. We mioght even see a time when the RCC in the U.S. has to be bailed out by the Vatican to remain financially viable.
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2004, 04:39:58 PM »

The RCC in the U.S. is not as rich as people think it is. It can not last long under this continued legal assault, that shows no sign of ending anytime soon.

As it should not. The victims should sue them until there is nothing left.
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Elisha
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2004, 05:50:25 PM »

We mioght even see a time when the RCC in the U.S. has to be bailed out by the Vatican to remain financially viable.

Does the Vatican really have enough $$ to bail the US out?
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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2004, 10:12:25 PM »

As one of the few practicing RCs on this board, I feel the need to step in.  I write once here before how I asked a RC priest who is a good friend of mine if it was true that the RC priesthood was dominanated by homosexuals.  This priest is very conservative and left one of the largest dioceses in the country because it was so screwed up.  Despite his many criticisms of the modern RC, he told me that he'd known very few homosexual priests.  

What he said is consistent with what I've observed in the RC as well.  For example, I went to confession at a different church recently and confessed to unknown priest.  We got into a long discussion and started talking about homosexuality and it was obvious that homosexual behavior completely shocked him.  He was a liberal.  Probably in his 50's.  Of that post-VII generation.  Clearly this man (a priest in one of the larger dioceses in the country) had run across very few homosexuals in his life.  If the priesthood was full of homosexuals then as a liberal priest his views would be different.  

Furthermore, I've only met one priest who I knew to be gay.  

As for Tom's comment about suing the American RC out of existence.  I just graduated from law school and believe in the legal system.  Lawsuits are one of the very few ways can redress for their injuries.  However, why should innocent Catholics be held responsible for the actions of these priests from 20 years ago?  I've never attended a parish where scandals have arisen.  My old diocese has had only 1 or 2 incidents.  My current diocese has some old cases and some recent cases where the priest was removed immediately once allegations were made.  Why do I owe the victims?  

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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2004, 11:03:56 PM »

As for Tom's comment about suing the American RC out of existence.  I just graduated from law school and believe in the legal system.  

Then you should know that life is not fair.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2004, 11:27:35 PM by Tom+ú » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2004, 11:24:16 PM »

I believe that the bishops and dioceses should be held accountable for the grievous crimes of the priests and those (i.e. the bishops) who covered up the scandals and enabled the offenders to re-offend.  However, it creeps me out to think of an instrument of the state (the courts) being used to utterly wipe out a large organized religion.
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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2004, 11:27:21 PM »

I believe that the bishops and dioceses should be held accountable for the grievous crimes of the priests and those (i.e. the bishops) who covered up the scandals and enabled the offenders to re-offend.  However, it creeps me out to think of an instrument of the state (the courts) being used to utterly wipe out a large organized religion.

But maybe this is a good thing. Sent by GOD to punish this wayward Church.

Maybe after this, all that will be left will be the TRULY faithful who will will turn back to the True Church..
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2004, 12:51:07 AM »

Quote
As it should not. The victims should sue them until there is nothing left.

Agreed....The "sin" remains as long as they keep those priest. If the RC wants God's blessings, maybe they should follow the apostles example & lay down some tough love instead of shuffling these trouble makers from diocese to diocese.  Until this happens, I don't see much change.

Quote
But maybe this is a good thing. Sent by GOD to punish this wayward Church.
Maybe after this, all that will be left will be the TRULY faithful who will will turn back to the True Church..

Yea, I really feel for the  faithful Catholics that have had to endure this because of thier clumbsy negligent bishops. If every bishop was like Bishop Burke or Bishop Sheridan, none of this would have happened. I'm hoping they can change things though before it's gets too bad. Today was a good start with the order from Rome to ban pro abortion politicans from communion.
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2004, 03:10:56 AM »

But maybe this is a good thing. Sent by GOD to punish this wayward Church.

Maybe after this, all that will be left will be the TRULY faithful who will will turn back to the True Church..


Tom, you sound like Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson with comments like these.
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2004, 07:54:06 AM »

Tom, you sound like Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson with comments like these.

Well, for a contribution of $100, I will send you this beautiful ....
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2004, 11:08:50 AM »

We should be discussing the nature and extent of this bankruptcy filing by the Portland Archdiocese instead of reiterating the ills and sins of omissions and commissions of the few priests that led to this act of last resort. We all know about the latter already.

As a juridical person by legal fiction, the Archdiocese of Portland has rights and privileges. One such right is protection from "unscrupulous" creditors under Federal Bankruptcy Laws, where its available assets are deemed insufficient to meet the claimed "debts" =liabilities of the victims of sexual abuse.

The lawyers of the Archdiocese were forced to resort to the protection of Chapter 11 because of the "unscrupulous" claims of just 2 alleged victims amounting to 155 milliom betwen themselves alone, leaving nothing, comparatively, for the other alleged victims.

Greed has overcome justice.

The Archdiocese is in the middle of amicable negotiations with the victims' lawyers as a group when this drastic decision was made. It has offered to settle ALL claims made by alleged victims of priestly sexual abuse dating back to 40 years or so.  But 2 of the victims, probably with the urging of their respective lawyers, upped their monetary claims to unreasonable amounts totalling 155 million.

With Chapter 11 protection, the Archdiocese will agree to settle ALL the claims, most probably pro rata, but only with non-exempt assets. In this way, the normal "business" of the Archdiocese will not be disrupted. (Remember United Air Lines and all the other airlines now under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.)

The predicament of the Archdiocese is exacerbated by the failure and/or refusal of its insurers to cover 60% of the liabilities. (This is another case brewing between the Archdiocese and the insurers!)

To my mind, this "last resort" but brilliant move by the lawyers of the Archdiocese of Portland, which is a FIRST in U.S. legal history and in the world to my recollection, will have a major impact  on the on-going negotiations in other involved dioceses.

At any rate, the bankruptcy of one diocese, or even the closure (which is improbable) thereof, does not in any manner affect the structural integrity of the Catholic Church in the U.S., much less the universal Catholic Church. It is but one of the 300 or so dioceses.

Now, victims with "unscrupulous" claims and their lawyers are thrust into the limelight.

Amado

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« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2004, 02:25:29 PM »

Greed has overcome justice.

Why? Because Sin has overcome the Roman Catholic Church. And the wages of sin are death. Shutter 'em all.

Now, victims with "unscrupulous" claims and their lawyers are thrust into the limelight.

Similar to the "unscrupulous" Bishops who by their INACTION caused this problem

Payback is a BITCH! Huh?

« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 02:28:56 PM by Tom+ú » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2004, 02:45:01 PM »

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Similar to the "unscrupulous" Bishops who by their INACTION caused this problem

Two wrongs don't make a right, Tom.  

I personally know one priest who was accused by an old parishoner of molesting his child was was actually dead due to a car accident.  The disgruntled parishoner did not get along with the priest for a variety of reasons, but nothing illegal.  The guy thought he could make a quick buck and stick it to the priest by making this accusation.  In the end, the diocese spent money debunking the claim, money that could have been spent elsewhere as reparation to real victims and the priest's good name was sullied for no reason.

I think that's the kind of "unscrupulous" claims to which Amadeus was referring.
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« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2004, 02:48:38 PM »

Two wrongs don't make a right, Tom.  

Not in a moral society, but they make no difference at all in a litigious society.
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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2004, 03:50:48 PM »

TomS:

In any adversarial proceeding, 2 apparently conflicting versions of an event or incident are considered judiciously.

One side or the other, or both, may be right or may be wrong.

In the process of ascertaining the truth or the correct version, rules of procedures and the provisions of substantive laws are applied equally to BOTH parties.

The Archdiocese of Portland is just availing itself of that vested right to defend, vigorously this time, its position under available legal processes, such as Federal Brankruptcy Laws.

Under the umbrella protection of Chapter 11 of the bankruptcy laws, every claimant as alleged victim of priestly sexual abuse in the Archdiocese has now to come forward with "clean" hands: prove up or shut up, as the saying goes!

The Catholic Church and her dioceses have been so "charitable" and "compliant" for so long a time.  This time, I hope objectivity and common sense of decency prevail.

We are not washing our hands of guilt; we accept where there is one. But now the alleged victims have to justify and validate their respective claims.

And, NO, the Vatican does not come bailing out the dioceses in financial distress. The local faithful do.

Amado
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« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2004, 12:25:14 PM »

And, NO, the Vatican does not come bailing out the dioceses in financial distress. The local faithful do.


That is precisely my point. Doantions to the RCC are way down all over the country. Diocese are being forced to sell ofs assets left anf right. Parishioners do not want their donations going to pay for legal defenses or paying for damages.

This cancer will continue in the RCC for quite some time yet. It will be bled of its assets and more Parishioners will leave in untold numbers -- many already have.
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spartacus
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« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2004, 12:39:28 PM »

As one of the few practicing RCs on this board, I feel the need to step in.  I write once here before how I asked a RC priest who is a good friend of mine if it was true that the RC priesthood was dominanated by homosexuals.  This priest is very conservative and left one of the largest dioceses in the country because it was so screwed up.  Despite his many criticisms of the modern RC, he told me that he'd known very few homosexual priests.  

As a formerly devout and practicing Roman Catholic, your priest friend is naiive or not telling you the whole truth. Even the RCC admits the priesthood in the U.S. is dominated by homosexual men. The USCCB commisioned a report where the great number of homosexual poriests was actually cited as the cause for the sexual abuse cases.

I have three priests in my family. I know full well that two of them have homosexualy tendencies. The third related stories of homosexual propositions made to him while he was in seminary and told a story of going to a local gay bar and discovering seminarians and priests from the seminary there. SOme were even all decked out in leather. (A priest who happens to be a cousin you have known all your life, tends to speak freely over beers at family gatherings).

Among the priesthood there is a corps of "truly blind faithful" -- priests and bishops who fail to recognize the evil in their midst. We are seeing the consequences for that blindness today.

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« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2004, 12:52:38 PM »

Dear spaRtacus:

I would love to see credible evidence that lay contributions, in totality, have declined in the U.S. and that "droves" of Catholics are leaving.

Boston, Dallas, and Phoenix, perhaps. In the Archdiocese of Chicago, contributions increased even after the priestly abuse cases were publicized. I don't know the ACTUAL figures for your former diocese.

In the case of Boston, Archbishop O'Malley sold off the palatial Archbishop's residence, which he said he did not need in his ministry, and certain unproductive diocesan assets in order not to give additional burden on the laity in the settlement.

Historically, there has been an annual net increase in U.S. Catholics and comparing 2003 (89,000 USCCB figures and 2004 (150,000 Associate Press estimate) shows more than 50% increase in converts from other Christian denominations, in addition to infant and adult baptisms of around 1.1 million. U.S. Catholics now number more than 63 million and growing.

The Catholic Church in the U.S. is "healthy" in terms of membership and financially.

Amado
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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2004, 01:32:38 PM »

As a formerly devout and practicing Roman Catholic, your priest friend is naiive or not telling you the whole truth. Even the RCC admits the priesthood in the U.S. is dominated by homosexual men. The USCCB commisioned a report where the great number of homosexual poriests was actually cited as the cause for the sexual abuse cases.

My priest friend is not naive and he doesn't lie.  He's honest to a fault.  He's very tied into the 'conservative' movement.  I suggest that you are looking for justification for leaving the RC.  

You've misconstrued the USCCB study.  http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040227-111236-5901r.htm

The RC doesn't "admit" that the RC is dominated by gay priests.  One of the plaintiff's "experts" estimates that about 30% of American priests are gay and of that half have acted out on their homosexual tendencies.  The USCCB report found that only 4% of priests had been accused of sexual abuse.  Therefore, the "expert's" overblown.  Even if they were true 30% does not constitute "dominance."  

Another study found that a slight majority of priests reported a "homosexual subculture" in the priesthood.  Again a "subculture" does not constitute dominance.  

Quote
I have three priests in my family. I know full well that two of them have homosexualy tendencies. The third related stories of homosexual propositions made to him while he was in seminary and told a story of going to a local gay bar and discovering seminarians and priests from the seminary there. SOme were even all decked out in leather. (A priest who happens to be a cousin you have known all your life, tends to speak freely over beers at family gatherings).

Among the priesthood there is a corps of "truly blind faithful" -- priests and bishops who fail to recognize the evil in their midst. We are seeing the consequences for that blindness today.

Your anecdotal evidence does not prove that the priesthood is "dominated" by homosexual priests.  Certainly there are gay priests but there is nothing besides innuendo to support a belief that the majority of priests are gay.  

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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2004, 02:49:16 PM »

I suggest that you are looking for justification for leaving the RC.  

I have been justified for a long time in leaving the RCC. Even as a teen I beleieved the RCC's beliefs about Purgatory and indulgences were wrong. I also have believed since then that an entirely celibate priesthood is an abomination. I long had many "issues" with RC beliefs. I refgused to be confirmed as a teen because of these issues. Yet I, still attended Mass and went to confession regularly and was married in the Church. I eventually decided to be like most other Catholics and just try to ignore my differences with Church teachings -- I got confirmed but it just did not do it. The more involved I became in my parish, the more those issues clamored to be addressed.

In discovering Orthodoxy I learned most of my "issues" like Purgatory, indulgences and mandatory celibacy -- were not present in the RCC for the first 1,000 years.

As for my wife -- Well it took a priest in our Parish sexually abusing young girls  -- or rather the character assasination dished out on the victim's families by leading parishioners --  to finally convince my wife it was time to leave.

We have never been happier.


AMADEUS is fond of quoting figures...Keep in mind sir, that my family is no doubt still on the rosters in our old Diocese -- as well as tens of millions of Roman Catholics who only show up at Christmas and Easter -- if at all. Glad to hear Chicago is doing so well. Perhaps they can sprwead the wealth to Rockford and Joliet...Maybe even Portland and Boston...Is there enough to go around? And is'nt Mayor Daley, who supports all forms of abortion and Gay marriage, still receiving Holy Communion. I guess it is easier to keep attendance and doantions up when Parishioner's public actions are never challenged.
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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2004, 04:22:29 PM »

Catholics Lament Churches Becoming Condos

Thursday, June 24, 2004

BOSTON — Boston Catholics grieving the loss of 65 diocesan churches are even more downhearted to learn that their former places of worship are being sold as luxury condominiums.

The Archdiocese of Boston last month announced it would sell off some of its churches in order to balance the budget.

Bernie McFarland and his father bought St. Peter and Paul's Church, one of the most venerable in Boston, to turn it into high-priced condos.

"We retained as much of the interior as we could to make a beautiful living space," said McFarland.

With the original plaster work, stained glass windows, arches, moldings and even the paint on the ceiling, these condos are selling for between $300,000 and $1 million.

Ray Flynn, once the mayor of Boston and later ambassador to the Vatican, is a devout Catholic, and said he's so stunned that his neighborhood church has a new identity, he forgets and crosses himself when he drives by.

"I'm sitting next to my wife and she says, 'Ray, you don't have to bless yourself. It's no longer a consecrated Catholic Church. It's luxury condominiums.' But it's hard for many of us to accept that," said Flynn.

"If I see a condominium up in place of this beautiful church, it would be a travesty," said another parishioner.

No one from the Archdiocese was available for an interview, but a spokesman told Fox News leaders hate to see a church being used for anything other than worship.

In New York, one church built in 1840 became a disco in the 1980s.

Others across the country have been torn down. Nevertheless, sale to a real-estate developer, even one who'll preserve religious relics, is little comfort for many Catholics.



« Last Edit: July 09, 2004, 04:23:01 PM by Tom+ú » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2004, 05:47:34 PM »

I read this article.  You should see some of the pictures that came with it.  I kinda like the way the apartments look, but it burns me that they were once churches.
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« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2004, 11:46:23 PM »

I also thought that the apartments looked pretty sharp, but I have to admit that it would have been nice if the churches had been able to  remain churches and sold to another denomination that might be able to use them for their original purpose - to worship God.

I hope that they explored this option first before they were sold to the developer and converted into luxo condos, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were just sold to the highest bidder.  Roll Eyes

In Christ,
Aaron

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« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2004, 02:17:07 AM »

Some items:

#1:  American Catholics financially support the Vatican, not the other way around.  Most Vatican cash comes from the U.S.A.  

#2:  Anyone who says that the American Catholic presbyterate is not rife with homosexuality has never visited a Roman Catholic seminary.  These clowns are getting ordained.  I was a RC seminarian in two different seminaries.  If you have the slightest inclination toward a traditional spirituality, they either badger you until you agree to be co-opted into the (I want to use a pejorative term here but I won't) homosexual world-view, or they drive you out.  Thanks be to God I was driven out.  Read Michael Rose's book "Goodbye, Good Men" - he'll tell you it isn't any better anywhere else.

#3:  US Catholic bishops have sown the wind, and are now reaping the whirlwind.  I suspect that, while some victims are golddigging, most want justice, and can seek an approximation of it only in civil court.
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