Author Topic: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?  (Read 5584 times)

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Offline Severian

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Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« on: July 30, 2011, 12:37:57 PM »
Are there any Western-rite Oriental Orthodox? I really like some forms of the Western-rite liturgy, so I was wondering if any OO practiced the Western-rite.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2011, 12:56:21 PM »
Are there any Western-rite Oriental Orthodox? I really like some forms of the Western-rite liturgy, so I was wondering if any OO practiced the Western-rite.
Somewhere here we have a thread linked to a video of someone from the British Orthodox Church on the WRO (the BOC is under the Coptic Pope, but use the Syriac rite of Jerusalem).
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Offline zekarja

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2011, 01:01:46 PM »
Are there any Western-rite Oriental Orthodox? I really like some forms of the Western-rite liturgy, so I was wondering if any OO practiced the Western-rite.
Somewhere here we have a thread linked to a video of someone from the British Orthodox Church on the WRO (the BOC is under the Coptic Pope, but use the Syriac rite of Jerusalem).

Is this it?
Abba Seraphim of the British (Oriental) Orthodox Church on the EO Western Rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27421.0.html
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 01:02:12 PM by zekarja »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2011, 01:06:27 PM »
Are there any Western-rite Oriental Orthodox? I really like some forms of the Western-rite liturgy, so I was wondering if any OO practiced the Western-rite.
Somewhere here we have a thread linked to a video of someone from the British Orthodox Church on the WRO (the BOC is under the Coptic Pope, but use the Syriac rite of Jerusalem).

Is this it?
Abba Seraphim of the British (Oriental) Orthodox Church on the EO Western Rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27421.0.html
yes
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Offline Severian

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2011, 01:18:09 PM »
Thank you guys. I'll check the video out when I come back from the library.

Peace,
Severian
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2012, 09:31:21 AM »
Thank you guys. I'll check the video out when I come back from the library.

Peace,
Severian
Also if I remember correctly, the Brahmavar Diocese of the IOC used a modified Tridentine mass up until the 1980's. They were ex Latin rite catholics from Goa who converted to Orthodoxy under St. Julius Mar Alvares.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2012, 01:48:07 PM »
Thank you guys. I'll check the video out when I come back from the library.

Peace,
Severian
Also if I remember correctly, the Brahmavar Diocese of the IOC used a modified Tridentine mass up until the 1980's. They were ex Latin rite catholics from Goa who converted to Orthodoxy under St. Julius Mar Alvares.

Why did they stop?
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline sheenj

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2012, 05:50:58 PM »
Thank you guys. I'll check the video out when I come back from the library.

Peace,
Severian
Also if I remember correctly, the Brahmavar Diocese of the IOC used a modified Tridentine mass up until the 1980's. They were ex Latin rite catholics from Goa who converted to Orthodoxy under St. Julius Mar Alvares.

Why did they stop?

I'm not sure, but I think it was for liturgical unity, whatever that is...

Quote
In 1986 Very Rev Archimandrite Dr, N J Thomas was installed as the Vicar General of Brahmavar Orthodox community. The next two decades were considered to be the golden era of this community. He introduced the celebration of Eastern Syrian liturgy for all Sundays, earlier it was only celebrated once in a month. The liturgical services were held in the Latin Rite with its Konkini and Kannada translatons. Though many were hesitant to accept this change in the beginning, later the entire community accepted the beauty of the Eastern Liturgy and prayers.
Source: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/articles/2009/12/holy-brahmavar/

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2012, 06:19:17 PM »
(the BOC is under the Coptic Pope, but use the Syriac rite of Jerusalem).

They use the Greek form of St. James' liturgy along with the daily services from the Coptic rite (Morning and evening raising of incense, etc.).

Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2012, 08:52:17 AM »
I remember reading several years ago (or more?) that there was a Western Orthodox parish under the Ethiopians in New York City, but I've never been able to find out anything more about it (if it ever existed in the first place).

It's a pity about the Brahmavar's switch, though I'd heard it was more due to the inability of the Keralan priests to serve the Roman Rite properly.

Are there any Western-rite Oriental Orthodox? I really like some forms of the Western-rite liturgy, so I was wondering if any OO practiced the Western-rite.
"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2013, 09:16:55 PM »
Anyone have any idea what happened to the Western Rite practitioners received into the Communion of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church by H.E. Abune Yesehaq of blessed memory [referenced here: http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006_01_08_archive.html]?  Are they still in the communion of the "Synod in Exile"?  If so, who is presently their bishop?  Or have they reverted to being vagante with Abune Yesehaq's repose?

How about the independent Catholics received into Communion by the Syriac Church [referenced here: http://www.scooch.org/2013/05/syriac-orthodox-church-receives-as-many-as-800000-new-converts-in-central-america/]?  Are they still using a Western Rite liturgy?  If so, which one?  Have they purged themselves of so-called "Charismatic Catholic" practices?

I'd like to learn more about both of these Western Rite Oriental Orthodox groups.  I'd love to contact the Western Rite EOTC, if anyone has their info.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2013, 10:43:37 AM »
How about the independent Catholics received into Communion by the Syriac Church [referenced here: http://www.scooch.org/2013/05/syriac-orthodox-church-receives-as-many-as-800000-new-converts-in-central-america/]?  Are they still using a Western Rite liturgy?  If so, which one?  Have they purged themselves of so-called "Charismatic Catholic" practices?

I think they're gradually being transitioned to the West Syrian Rite? Perhaps someone involved in the Syriac Orthodox Church would know...
"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2013, 12:44:13 PM »
I think they're gradually being transitioned to the West Syrian Rite? Perhaps someone involved in the Syriac Orthodox Church would know...

Are they?  So they'll soon be Western Rite no longer then.  From what I've read, their former liturgy was based on the Novus Ordo Mass. Most Western Rite Orthodox aren't big fans of that service, right?  One thing's certainly for sure: their being weened off of so-called "charismatic" practice is not only a good thing, but a necessary thing.

Where did you hear that they're being transitioned to the West Syrian Rite?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 12:44:58 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 03:00:48 PM »
Depends: what do you think it is?

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2013, 03:13:24 PM »
Thread's topic.
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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2013, 04:32:17 PM »
I would attend Oriental and/or Coptic services if they were available.

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2013, 05:43:48 PM »
Thread's topic.

Basically, yes.  The community still exists, but it's been a long time since they used the Roman rite, as the clergy who knew it eventually died off without teaching others.  They use the Syriac rite now for the most part, but some Latin practices can be seen now and then during certain festivals and, I'm sure, in the homes.   

I don't know the story with this particular church.  The story says it was "rediscovered", but if there's a community there, I suppose it was never lost.  Probably the author is trying to emphasise that these communities are now getting the attention and care they should've had all along or something like that.     

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2013, 06:12:41 PM »
Thread's topic.

Basically, yes.  The community still exists, but it's been a long time since they used the Roman rite, as the clergy who knew it eventually died off without teaching others.  They use the Syriac rite now for the most part, but some Latin practices can be seen now and then during certain festivals and, I'm sure, in the homes.   

I don't know the story with this particular church.  The story says it was "rediscovered", but if there's a community there, I suppose it was never lost.  Probably the author is trying to emphasise that these communities are now getting the attention and care they should've had all along or something like that.     
Is this the same group who ordained René Vilatte, who led what was to be the first WRO parish in the New World in Fond-du-Lac WI (the first Orthodox parish there), but ended up with the OOs (before moving on, various strands of his followers ended up with the first bishop of Washington, Bp. Igantius Nichols, the first (and only) WRO bishop (though only briefly, before going vaganti), whose successor Fr. Alexander Turner led them back into Orthodoxy (the Antiochian WRO Vicarate)?
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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2013, 06:24:46 PM »
Is this the same group who ordained René Vilatte, who led what was to be the first WRO parish in the New World in Fond-du-Lac WI (the first Orthodox parish there), but ended up with the OOs (before moving on, various strands of his followers ended up with the first bishop of Washington, Bp. Igantius Nichols, the first (and only) WRO bishop (though only briefly, before going vaganti), whose successor Fr. Alexander Turner led them back into Orthodoxy (the Antiochian WRO Vicarate)?

In the sense that Vilatte was ordained by the Malankara Church, and this group belonged to it as well, yes.  But I'm not sure if Vilatte came out of this exact group, or if he came in separately.  I've presumed the latter: Vilatte was French IIRC, but this group is connected with the Portuguese colonies, and while Vilatte eventually went off radar, this group remained connected to the Orthodox Church despite spotty pastoral care on the part of the wider Church.  Fortunately, this seems to be improving. 

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2014, 03:14:22 PM »
I'd just like to bump this up to see if anyone has any new info on either of the groups referenced below:

Anyone have any idea what happened to the Western Rite practitioners received into the Communion of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church by H.E. Abune Yesehaq of blessed memory [referenced here: http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006_01_08_archive.html]?  Are they still in the communion of the "Synod in Exile"?  If so, who is presently their bishop?  Or have they reverted to being vagante with Abune Yesehaq's repose?

How about the independent Catholics received into Communion by the Syriac Church [referenced here: http://www.scooch.org/2013/05/syriac-orthodox-church-receives-as-many-as-800000-new-converts-in-central-america/]?  Are they still using a Western Rite liturgy?  If so, which one?  Have they purged themselves of so-called "Charismatic Catholic" practices?

I'd like to learn more about both of these Western Rite Oriental Orthodox groups.  I'd love to contact the Western Rite EOTC, if anyone has their info.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2014, 10:05:04 AM »
I'd just like to bump this up to see if anyone has any new info on either of the groups referenced below:

Anyone have any idea what happened to the Western Rite practitioners received into the Communion of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church by H.E. Abune Yesehaq of blessed memory [referenced here: http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006_01_08_archive.html]?  Are they still in the communion of the "Synod in Exile"?  If so, who is presently their bishop?  Or have they reverted to being vagante with Abune Yesehaq's repose?

How about the independent Catholics received into Communion by the Syriac Church [referenced here: http://www.scooch.org/2013/05/syriac-orthodox-church-receives-as-many-as-800000-new-converts-in-central-america/]?  Are they still using a Western Rite liturgy?  If so, which one?  Have they purged themselves of so-called "Charismatic Catholic" practices?

I'd like to learn more about both of these Western Rite Oriental Orthodox groups.  I'd love to contact the Western Rite EOTC, if anyone has their info.

From the March 2013 notices on the website of the Ecumenical Renewed Catholic Church in Guatemala, now the Syriac Orthodox Archdiocese of Central America, quoting the exhortation of Patriarch Ignatius Zacchaeus I (Iwas) to Metropolitan Mor Jacob (Eduardo) at the latter's reception into the Church: "Dentro de la Arquidiócesis se implementarán y celebrarán progresivamente los ritos litúrgicos y sacramentales, en uso en la Santa Sede Apostólica de Antioquía, de acuerdo a los textos que hemos bendecido y entregado a nuestro hermano Mor Jacob (Santiago) Eduardo." (Roughly: 'Within the Archdiocese will be progressively implemented the liturgical rites in use by the Holy Apostolic See of Antioch, according to the texts that have been blessed and delivered to our brother Mor Jacob (Eduardo).')

I don't know where they're at in the transition, but from the sounds of it the understanding from the start was that they transition from their Novus Ordo-style usage to the West Syrian Rite. If you explore the website (http://www.icergua.org/latam/noticias/13/03.html#1) you'll find Spanish-language texts for their old Mass and, I assume, the West Syrian Rite Divine Liturgy they're switching to.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 10:06:19 AM by kijabeboy03 »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2014, 10:22:33 AM »
Thanks, Kijabe.  I truly appreciate the update.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2014, 07:54:25 AM »
Thanks, Kijabe.  I truly appreciate the update.

My pleasure! I stumbled across their website - a happy accident :-).
"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

Offline augustin717

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2014, 09:44:03 AM »
The scope of liturgical archeological work an oriental western rite Orthodox would have to do is way more daunting than even what ROCOR does.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 09:44:38 AM by augustin717 »
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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2014, 09:48:37 AM »
The scope of liturgical archeological work an oriental western rite Orthodox would have to do is way more daunting than even what ROCOR does.

I guess it would be if the criteria included finding a pre-schism rite.  I don't know if that that's the case for the Western Rite parishes received by the Ethiopian "Synod in Exile".  Based on what we're reading on these boards, the Western Rite communities received by the Syriac Church are being transitioned into the Liturgy of St. James.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2014, 09:49:08 AM »
I imagine something funny as "The Roman Rite as celebrated in Rome before the regim of The heresiarch Leo"
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Re: Western-Rite Oriental Orthodox?
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2014, 01:17:37 PM »
I imagine something funny as "The Roman Rite as celebrated in Rome before the regim of The heresiarch Leo"

The Western rite community in the Indian Church in the nineteenth century did no such thing.  They basically used the Roman liturgy as it existed at that time, probably with the original Creed and commemorating Orthodox bishops.  I don't know if they had to change more than that.