Author Topic: WRO "is not ethnic"  (Read 1451 times)

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Offline Agabus

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WRO "is not ethnic"
« on: September 21, 2014, 05:15:08 PM »
"He could not find disagreement with any doctrine, His only criticism of Orthodoxy was that most churches were too ethnically biased."

Did/does he know about Western Rite parishes? None of them (in the US at least) are ethnically based, as they are composed almost entirely of converts from Catholicism and Anglicanism.
So they're Anglo?

;)

Not entirely - there's a few number of Hispanic Western Rite parishes, too.
Not sure this cuts to the ethnic chase.

Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem with ethnic missions or the Western Rite, but the whole idea that the WR is less ethnic is kinda funny to me when the purpose for its existence is to provide a home in the Orthodox Church for western people of non-Byzantine cultural and religious backgrounds.
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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2014, 05:20:15 PM »
Oh, I agree. I was merely adding more spice to your "Anglo" remark.

I don't mind us Western converts asking for an Orthodoxy that expresses our ethnicity instead of having to "convert" to either Hellenism or Slavicism (to coin a new term). But I definitely agree we should not do so by asking for something that's "not ethnic" when what we want is entirely ethnic.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2014, 05:28:48 PM »
The thing is, in American parlance, "ethnic" usually means non-Anglo :P. Being a WASP is considered "normal" and everything else is, well, exotic. I think it's correct to point out that this is a bad double standard.

But it's not necessarily always about ethnicity. A multi-ethnic Catholic parish (some white, some black, some Hispanic) that had used the traditional Latin mass for years and wanted to become Orthodox might well choose WR just because the liturgy would be more familiar to them.

Yet another, non-ethnicity-related situation would be if someone just felt closer to God in one type of liturgy over another. Remember the old story about the Kievan spies who preferred the Byzantine liturgy to the Roman/German one? The reverse could also be true; there could be some people who for whatever reason just feel more at home spiritually in a Western liturgy (Roman, Celtic, English, what have you) even if they themselves don't have any ethnic ties to it.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 05:33:15 PM by Minnesotan »
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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 10:45:38 AM »
The church is best as the Church Local. Partly why there are both Eastern Catholics and Western Rite Orthodox. For example, Ukrainians need not become Italian; Anglo-Americans need not become Russian, even if they adopt the Byzantine Rite. Since Italianness or Russianness ≠ universality.

So sure, WRO parishes are ethnic, like many Episcopal and Lutheran ones are.
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Offline LBK

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2014, 10:49:46 AM »
The church is best as the Church Local. Partly why there are both Eastern Catholics and Western Rite Orthodox. For example, Ukrainians need not become Italian; Anglo-Americans need not become Russian, even if they adopt the Byzantine Rite. Since Italianness or Russianness ≠ universality.

So sure, WRO parishes are ethnic, like many Episcopal and Lutheran ones are.

Galatians 3:28, anyone?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 10:50:03 AM by LBK »
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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 11:00:28 AM »
The church is of course both universal and local, as Jesus is both God and man.
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Offline biro

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 11:04:49 AM »
The church is of course both universal and local, as Jesus is both God and man.

Yay!  :)

Offline Peter J

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2014, 10:37:25 AM »
In the USA, white people tend to be lumped together. (There are some exceptions, of course. E.g. There is sometimes recognition of a Polish ethnicity, an Italian ethnicity, a Jewish ethnicity, etc.)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 10:39:11 AM by Peter J »
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2014, 10:42:44 AM »
I don't have an accent!

I'm not ethnic!

I don't speak any languages!

I would really prefer to have a religion that isn't mired in such worldly things...

:o

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2014, 10:44:00 AM »
Thanks, biro.

Peter J, true now but not 70-100+ years ago. I think Italians were roughly considered black and even the Irish, as in Thomas Nast's anti-Catholic cartoons, seen as a different race from the Anglo-Saxons, Germans, and Nordics.

lovesupreme: God made people tribal, loyal to family including extended family such as country and race. The answer is not to let that go too far, turning outsiders away.
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2014, 10:46:46 AM »
lovesupreme: God made people tribal, loyal to family including extended family such as country and race. The answer is not to let that go too far, turning outsiders away.

See my signature. :)

Offline Peter J

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2014, 11:04:38 AM »
Meh. I say "Dentists, who needs em?"
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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2014, 11:06:27 AM »
lovesupreme: God made people tribal, loyal to family including extended family such as country and race. The answer is not to let that go too far, turning outsiders away.

See my signature. :)

Actually I did pick up on that. Everybody is ethnic, has an accent, and speaks a language, such as you're writing in! For example, the Episcopal Church is extremely ethnic. It's English!
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2014, 11:08:31 AM »
Of course. And I personally prefer groups that are strongly devoted to their ethnic heritage. Provided they are inclusive and not supremacists, of course.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 11:08:41 AM by lovesupreme »

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2014, 11:14:58 AM »
Right. For the Orthodox and Greek Catholics, de-ethnicizinig parishes would be suicidal.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2014, 11:35:16 AM »
lovesupreme: God made people tribal, loyal to family including extended family such as country and race.

A legitimate opinion perhaps but not anyhow self-evidently biblical or historical. I see no need to have any loyalty to my county or "race".
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2014, 11:57:24 AM »
"He could not find disagreement with any doctrine, His only criticism of Orthodoxy was that most churches were too ethnically biased."

Did/does he know about Western Rite parishes? None of them (in the US at least) are ethnically based, as they are composed almost entirely of converts from Catholicism and Anglicanism.
So they're Anglo?

;)

Not entirely - there's a few number of Hispanic Western Rite parishes, too.
Not sure this cuts to the ethnic chase.

Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem with ethnic missions or the Western Rite, but the whole idea that the WR is less ethnic is kinda funny to me when the purpose for its existence is to provide a home in the Orthodox Church for western people of non-Byzantine cultural and religious backgrounds.
They are, after all, in the West.
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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2014, 01:07:03 PM »
Without a high church Christian background, it's going to seem as alien to you as the Byzantine rite.
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2014, 01:18:48 PM »
I visited a few churches as a non-Christian and the Greek Church felt the most at home to me.

Being exposed to another middle Eastern religion helped, I suppose. Meanwhile, American protestantism continues to elude me...
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 01:19:25 PM by lovesupreme »

Offline Alpo

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2014, 01:19:31 PM »
Without a high church Christian background, it's going to seem as alien to you as the Byzantine rite.

Not necessarily. Coming from a Pentecostal background both Lutheran and Catholic masses seemed a lot more familiar and felt more like home than Orthodox liturgy seemed like.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2014, 01:31:54 PM »
Right. For the Orthodox and Greek Catholics, de-ethnicizinig parishes would be suicidal.

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Offline brastaseptim

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2014, 07:04:08 PM »
lovesupreme: God made people tribal, loyal to family including extended family such as country and race. The answer is not to let that go too far, turning outsiders away.

See my signature. :)

Actually I did pick up on that. Everybody is ethnic, has an accent, and speaks a language, such as you're writing in! For example, the Episcopal Church is extremely ethnic. It's English!

No wonder they like me so much when I attend choral Evensong! I'm English, and have an English accent. Granted, all Episcopalians are are more left-wing-than-usual Anglicans. 
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2014, 07:12:46 PM »
It's true. Americans are enamored with English accents, especially on men (even the American men).

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2014, 07:50:05 PM »
I'm part Spanish but of course have a good deal of English heritage from centuries ago; my dad married an Episcopalian so there you go. Made the pilgrimage: lived in the mother country. Many of the accents are wonderful. My English still sounds mid-Atlantic: think an American radio announcer during World War II, not a pretentious person. One pronunciation the English actually taught me: the yod. For example, news is nyooz.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2014, 08:40:33 PM »
Without a high church Christian background, it's going to seem as alien to you as the Byzantine rite.
Not really.
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Offline brastaseptim

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2014, 09:06:36 PM »
I'm part Spanish but of course have a good deal of English heritage from centuries ago; my dad married an Episcopalian so there you go. Made the pilgrimage: lived in the mother country. Many of the accents are wonderful. My English still sounds mid-Atlantic: think an American radio announcer during World War II, not a pretentious person. One pronunciation the English actually taught me: the yod. For example, news is nyooz.

Mid-Atlantic, hmm? Are you still non-rhotic, and do you have the cart-cot-caught distinction, as well as the Mary-Merry-Marry distinction?
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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2014, 09:20:13 PM »
Rhotic; cart, cot, and caught all sound different; and Mary and merry sound alike (my origins) but marry sounds different.
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Offline WPM

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Re: WRO "is not ethnic"
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2014, 09:48:30 PM »
"He could not find disagreement with any doctrine, His only criticism of Orthodoxy was that most churches were too ethnically biased."

Did/does he know about Western Rite parishes? None of them (in the US at least) are ethnically based, as they are composed almost entirely of converts from Catholicism and Anglicanism.
So they're Anglo?

;)



Not entirely - there's a few number of Hispanic Western Rite parishes, too.
Not sure this cuts to the ethnic chase.

Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem with ethnic missions or the Western Rite, but the whole idea that the WR is less ethnic is kinda funny to me when the purpose for its existence is to provide a home in the Orthodox Church for western people of non-Byzantine cultural and religious backgrounds.

What do you mean not ethnic? Its just as Catholic or Orthodox as most Western Liturgies pertaining to the Churches in the West.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 09:49:19 PM by WPM »