Author Topic: Question about Sola Scriptura  (Read 1110 times)

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Offline Timon

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Question about Sola Scriptura
« on: July 29, 2011, 02:31:32 AM »
As I said in my other post, I grew up protestant but have recently been studying the Orthodox and Catholic Faiths.  Like I said, I like the Catholic/Orthodox faith overall, but there are some things with the RC church I disagree with. But thats a whole different topic....

Basically I have come to the conclusion that I do not accept Sola Scriptura.  I was discussing this with my (VERY) protestant in-laws, and they were not very open to anything I had to say regarding Catholic faith.  In fact, they were shocked that I would even venture into such pagan territory. (note the sarcasm on my part...) 

One of the best arguments I have heard against Sola Scriptura is that it doesnt meet its own criteria.  it does not say anywhere in the Bible that the Bible is the only source of authority for Christians.  This was the argument I was going to present to them next time it came up. To their credit, they are smart and know a lot of scripture. (Probably more than I do.)

Now I havent had the discussion yet, but for some reason I can hear them bringing up the beginning of John where it says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." I can already hear the conversation going like this...

Me: The Bible doesnt say anywhere that the Bible is the sole authority for Christians.
Them: But what about John 1:1?  The Word is God. Are you saying God isnt the primary authority?
Me: .....

Do they have a valid argument? If not, how would I deal with it if they were to say that? I dont know that they will, but like I said, I know them and can hear them saying it. Are there any other verses I should know about that are commonly used to suggest the Bible says itself that it is the sole authority? 

Or am I just wrong altogether?? I realize this may be an elementary topic, but I dont know off the top of my head how I would respond, and I want to be prepared.  Couldnt find anything good regard this exact topic and verse.

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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2011, 02:39:41 AM »
Take a Bible in your hand, show it to them and ask: Is this your God?

Actually, the Word (Greek: logos), who is God, is not the Bible, but none other than Jesus Christ himself. That is why the text goes on to state that the word became flesh (and not "became book" or whatever).

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2011, 03:05:26 AM »
No, you are not wrong. John 1:1 and following refers to Christ the Word, not to the Bible. Just as Hebrews 4:12 refers to Christ as the Word, not to the Bible.

I posted an excerpt from my book on the subject of Sola Scriptura here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38353.msg610076.html#msg610076

I hope this helps.



Selam
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Offline sainthieu

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2011, 10:24:44 AM »
kurtis:

Father Andrew Damick has a good podcast on Sola Scriptura from, of course, an Orthodox perspective. It might answer some of your questions.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2011, 10:34:28 AM »
Take a Bible in your hand, show it to them and ask: Is this your God?

Actually, the Word (Greek: logos), who is God, is not the Bible, but none other than Jesus Christ himself. That is why the text goes on to state that the word became flesh (and not "became book" or whatever).

The Word became text and was shelved among us. :D

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2011, 10:35:56 AM »
Take a Bible in your hand, show it to them and ask: Is this your God?

Actually, the Word (Greek: logos), who is God, is not the Bible, but none other than Jesus Christ himself. That is why the text goes on to state that the word became flesh (and not "became book" or whatever).
Yes, "God the Word," not "the Word of God."
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Offline Timon

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2011, 11:39:14 AM »
Thanks so much everyone! I knew it had to be something simple, I just wanted to be sure!
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2011, 12:13:16 PM »
You can also point those folks in the direction of 2 Thessalonians. That kind of knocks Sola out of the water.....
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2011, 12:14:36 PM »
The Word became text and was shelved among us. :D

Is there any kind of "quote of the month" thread around here? Because I nominate this one!  ;D
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Offline eyesmile

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2011, 07:02:00 PM »

Basically I have come to the conclusion that I do not accept Sola Scriptura.  I was discussing this with my (VERY) protestant in-laws, and they were not very open to anything I had to say regarding Catholic faith.  



Your in-laws . . . God bless you for your testimony.

If it ever gets sticky you can always rely on John 5:39-40 as being a personal conviction.
 
  
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 07:07:56 PM by eyesmile »

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2011, 07:23:27 PM »
Word of God was the name of Jesus before being born. Book of Adam and Eve says that Word of God will save humanity and in John 1 Jesus declares himself to be Word of God. One verse later says and the Word assumed flesh, it means Jesus not Bible become human.

Genesis 15:1, Zachariah 12:1 is Jesus doing not the book.

If your in law know history then you can make this point:

Sola Scriptura means only Bible. It means take 1 billion historical documents about Christianity and Early Church, take Bible from them and throw everything out of window. Then if something is not in the Bible use your imagination. Because imagination vary, there are hundreds Protestant denominations.

Allow me please to use, Sola Herodotus in telling how Columbus discovered America.

Columbus took 7 Portavions with 300 turbojets and they come to America. Then they spotted an Amerindian Passenger plane and understood that they are close to a new land. Why are you laughing? This is protestantism and you can not combate me because how Columbus discovered New Land is not in Herodotus, the only document I recognize. everything else I already throw out of the window.

According with Sola Scriptura since Protestantism is in the Bible , Protestantism is not necessary for salvation neither Luther, Calvin and such.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 07:32:44 PM by pasadi97 »
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2011, 07:39:52 PM »
Ask your in law to read this thread at least first part so they realize Protestantism rennounces tyo food for eternal life for them. That should suffice. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35988.0.html

Another point. New testament thus Bible was product of Church in year 300 and there was no Bibnle in first years of Church. So how a not trusted Church can in 300 producea trusted document.

Also give them to read the Holy liturgy of Apostle James believed to be written in year 60 or Holy liturgy of Apostle and Evangelist Matthew that explain what the Early Christians in the times of Apostles did on Sundays then ask them to compare with what happens in Protestantism. Let them know that the 2 Liturgies are cel;ebrated today in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Let them know that Apostle Luke painted icons and that the Church copndemned iconoclasm. Jesus did put his face on a napkin and sent it to the city of Edessa where it was venerated by people and King was partially cured from leprosy. Read on google for Abgar of Edessa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_of_Edessa
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Offline eyesmile

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2011, 08:02:32 PM »
Protestantism is not necessary for salvation neither Luther, Calvin and such.

Aye, I hope my post is not misunderstood. I admire kurtismjohnson and hopefully his in-laws do also.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2011, 08:47:54 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


From my experience discussing matters of the Church with Sola Scripture Protestants I don't really think there can be any persuasive arguments, even if based upon Scripture, because in all honesty the entire philosophy of Sola Scripture is irreverent, illogical, and indignant.  Folks don't necessarily believe in it because it makes sense so much as they have been persuaded by the misguiding (even if innocently) of others, and only God can persuade their hearts into the right direction. Further, many people project their own personal gripes and misunderstandings onto the Church itself and therefore reject it entirely and only come to Sola Scripture because from that ultra-Protestant ethos it becomes the only game in town. 

Lets face it, in our Church we call these kinds of matters "Mysteries" precisely because we don't suppose them to be matters of intellect or mental comprehension or logic, rather they are actions of the Spirit of God in our midst.  So we can not expect to explain away Sola Scripture to folks who adamantly believe in it, instead all we can do is continue in sincere and heartfelt prayer for them and be honest, compassionate, and humble when we share our lives with them.  In this way, God will draw the back, just as He draws we Orthodox back in each process of Reconciliation/Confession and receiving Holy Communion.

This is not to say you shouldn't politely and respectfully discuss these matters and talk about the Scriptures with folks, including you in-laws, just don't be surprised if it takes a bit more spiritual patience and time for them to see the Light, which will knock them off their horse inevitably like it did Apostle Paul.  Perfect typology, this story demonstrates the reality that only Paul heard the voice at the time, those with him did not comprehend what had happened and didn't receive the same Graceful vision.  Perhaps they may have later, but our coming to Our Heavenly Father is mutually individual and communal.

stay blessed,
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Offline Timon

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2011, 11:31:24 PM »
Protestantism is not necessary for salvation neither Luther, Calvin and such.

Aye, I hope my post is not misunderstood. I admire kurtismjohnson and hopefully his in-laws do also.

Understood completely! No offense taken!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
From my experience discussing matters of the Church with Sola Scripture Protestants I don't really think there can be any persuasive arguments, even if based upon Scripture, because in all honesty the entire philosophy of Sola Scripture is irreverent, illogical, and indignant.  Folks don't necessarily believe in it because it makes sense so much as they have been persuaded by the misguiding (even if innocently) of others, and only God can persuade their hearts into the right direction.

yea. I guess when you have been told the same thing for 50 years like my in-laws (and many protestants) have, its kind of shocking when someone presents something different.  Especially the idea that the scriptures arent the only source of revelation and authority for Christians.  I know I had a hard time at first, but quickly understood it because, well, it makes perfect since.  Like I said, Sola Scriptura doesnt meet its own requirements. Doesnt say anywhere in the Bible that the Bible is the only authority.

If you think they responded bad to Sola Scriptura, you should have heard them when I mentioned Mary being sinless!!! My goodness!!! But thats a whole different post for a different day.  We will leave that one alone for now!

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2011, 05:16:50 AM »
As I said in my other post, I grew up protestant but have recently been studying the Orthodox and Catholic Faiths.  Like I said, I like the Catholic/Orthodox faith overall, but there are some things with the RC church I disagree with. But thats a whole different topic....

Basically I have come to the conclusion that I do not accept Sola Scriptura.  I was discussing this with my (VERY) protestant in-laws, and they were not very open to anything I had to say regarding Catholic faith.  In fact, they were shocked that I would even venture into such pagan territory. (note the sarcasm on my part...) 

One of the best arguments I have heard against Sola Scriptura is that it doesnt meet its own criteria.  it does not say anywhere in the Bible that the Bible is the only source of authority for Christians.  This was the argument I was going to present to them next time it came up. To their credit, they are smart and know a lot of scripture. (Probably more than I do.)

Now I havent had the discussion yet, but for some reason I can hear them bringing up the beginning of John where it says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." I can already hear the conversation going like this...

Me: The Bible doesnt say anywhere that the Bible is the sole authority for Christians.
Them: But what about John 1:1?  The Word is God. Are you saying God isnt the primary authority?
Me: .....

Do they have a valid argument? If not, how would I deal with it if they were to say that? I dont know that they will, but like I said, I know them and can hear them saying it. Are there any other verses I should know about that are commonly used to suggest the Bible says itself that it is the sole authority? 

Or am I just wrong altogether?? I realize this may be an elementary topic, but I dont know off the top of my head how I would respond, and I want to be prepared.  Couldnt find anything good regard this exact topic and verse.



They really interpret John 1:1 to be referring to the Scriptures?

Really??

This is the whackiest fundamentalist clap-trap I've come across yet. You were right to be suspicious of such reasoning!
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2011, 05:21:19 AM »
I was always somewhat confused about this verse, when I was a Protestant.  It seemed that, half the time, people would refer to it and associate it with the Incarnation.  The other half, they seemed to think it spoke of an incarnation of the Bible, instead of God.  Protestants can certainly be peculiar at times.
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Offline Timon

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2011, 06:52:11 AM »
As I said in my other post, I grew up protestant but have recently been studying the Orthodox and Catholic Faiths.  Like I said, I like the Catholic/Orthodox faith overall, but there are some things with the RC church I disagree with. But thats a whole different topic....

Basically I have come to the conclusion that I do not accept Sola Scriptura.  I was discussing this with my (VERY) protestant in-laws, and they were not very open to anything I had to say regarding Catholic faith.  In fact, they were shocked that I would even venture into such pagan territory. (note the sarcasm on my part...) 

One of the best arguments I have heard against Sola Scriptura is that it doesnt meet its own criteria.  it does not say anywhere in the Bible that the Bible is the only source of authority for Christians.  This was the argument I was going to present to them next time it came up. To their credit, they are smart and know a lot of scripture. (Probably more than I do.)

Now I havent had the discussion yet, but for some reason I can hear them bringing up the beginning of John where it says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." I can already hear the conversation going like this...

Me: The Bible doesnt say anywhere that the Bible is the sole authority for Christians.
Them: But what about John 1:1?  The Word is God. Are you saying God isnt the primary authority?
Me: .....

Do they have a valid argument? If not, how would I deal with it if they were to say that? I dont know that they will, but like I said, I know them and can hear them saying it. Are there any other verses I should know about that are commonly used to suggest the Bible says itself that it is the sole authority? 

Or am I just wrong altogether?? I realize this may be an elementary topic, but I dont know off the top of my head how I would respond, and I want to be prepared.  Couldnt find anything good regard this exact topic and verse.



They really interpret John 1:1 to be referring to the Scriptures?

Really??

This is the whackiest fundamentalist clap-trap I've come across yet. You were right to be suspicious of such reasoning!

In their defense... they didnt already assume this.  I was just afraid they would if I brought it up, so I asked you guys ahead of time how to deal with it just incase they did.  I knew there was a simple response to this, and part of the reason I asked (and I am embarrassed of this) was because of my own lack of understanding for that verse. 
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

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Offline katherine 2001

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2011, 08:04:29 AM »
As I said in my other post, I grew up protestant but have recently been studying the Orthodox and Catholic Faiths.  Like I said, I like the Catholic/Orthodox faith overall, but there are some things with the RC church I disagree with. But thats a whole different topic....

Basically I have come to the conclusion that I do not accept Sola Scriptura.  I was discussing this with my (VERY) protestant in-laws, and they were not very open to anything I had to say regarding Catholic faith.  In fact, they were shocked that I would even venture into such pagan territory. (note the sarcasm on my part...)  

One of the best arguments I have heard against Sola Scriptura is that it doesnt meet its own criteria.  it does not say anywhere in the Bible that the Bible is the only source of authority for Christians.  This was the argument I was going to present to them next time it came up. To their credit, they are smart and know a lot of scripture. (Probably more than I do.)

Now I havent had the discussion yet, but for some reason I can hear them bringing up the beginning of John where it says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." I can already hear the conversation going like this...

Me: The Bible doesnt say anywhere that the Bible is the sole authority for Christians.
Them: But what about John 1:1?  The Word is God. Are you saying God isnt the primary authority?
Me: .....

Do they have a valid argument? If not, how would I deal with it if they were to say that? I dont know that they will, but like I said, I know them and can hear them saying it. Are there any other verses I should know about that are commonly used to suggest the Bible says itself that it is the sole authority?  

Or am I just wrong altogether?? I realize this may be an elementary topic, but I dont know off the top of my head how I would respond, and I want to be prepared.  Couldnt find anything good regard this exact topic and verse.



They really interpret John 1:1 to be referring to the Scriptures?

Really??

This is the whackiest fundamentalist clap-trap I've come across yet. You were right to be suspicious of such reasoning!

Unfortunately, I've noticed in the last 8 years or so that some people do think that the first passage of St. John's Gospel is talking about the Scriptures.  I just remind them that the passage is talking about Christ (which I was taught during my 25 years as a Baptist), and that the Bible is not the 2nd person of the Godhead, nor did it become incarnate, live a sinless life, die on the cross or resurrect on the third day.  I also remind them that Christ is a person and not a book.  I never let them get away with taking that passage and applying it to the Bible without calling them on it.  I still remember one person even posting, "Bible=Jesus".  I very quickly pointed out again that Jesus is a person and not a book and that the Bible most certainly doesn't equal Jesus (though the Bible is certainly important). 
« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 08:08:34 AM by katherine 2001 »

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2011, 08:01:11 PM »
Wow. Just, wow.

Thank you for keeping my eyes open, katherine.
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Offline Timon

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2011, 08:54:00 PM »
I thought that I had heard the number 29,000ish tossed around before. Maybe it's not accurate, and I guess I hope it isn't accurate! If it is inaccurate, just pretend I was exaggerating. After all, the point was that there are so many different sects of Protestantism.  As a contract musician who has played music for every type of major denomination I can think of, except orthodox, I would say that no two churches agree on 100% of everything. Everyone has different beliefs somewhere. I guess bc with sola scripture people interpret te scriptures how ever they want, then start a church based on their interpretation. This, I would imagine, is how all these different denominations come about.
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Offline biro

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2011, 09:06:47 PM »
If one takes the opening verses of John 1 to refer to the Bible, instead of to Christ... then do they think there was a Bible floating around in space at the dawn of the world?  ??? I thought about that once. It was a very weird image.

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2011, 09:09:49 PM »
If one takes the opening verses of John 1 to refer to the Bible, instead of to Christ... then do they think there was a Bible floating around in space at the dawn of the world?  ??? I thought about that once. It was a very weird image.

Believe it or not, many Muslims hold a similar view in respect of the Qur'an.
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Offline biro

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2011, 09:14:16 PM »
Wow. That would make a really bad cartoon.  :P

Offline Timon

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Re: Question about Sola Scriptura
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2011, 12:22:17 AM »
And incase you were wondering what the heck i was talking about in my last post with the 29,000 reference, its because it was supposed to in my other thread! I was on my iphone and didnt realize I posted it in the wrong place. Whoops.  Been reading back in forth between the 2 a lot.
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

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