Author Topic: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?  (Read 1910 times)

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Offline jah777

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Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« on: July 13, 2011, 10:49:33 AM »
In Eastern Orthodoxy, incorrupt relics are a very important sign of a saint's holiness and sanctity.  There are many stories of saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church who have been incorrupt.  In the 20th century alone, for instance, we have St. John of San Francisco, St. Savvas the New of Kalymnos, St. John the Romanian, and others whose bodies have remained incorrupt for decades after their repose and whose incorrupt relics are a continual source of healing for many.  Do the Non-Chalcedonians also have saints who are incorrupt?  If so, I would be interested in reading the stories of such saints if Non-Chalcedonians would be willing to paste relevant passages from their books.  Please also share photos of such incorrupt relics.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 10:54:26 AM by jah777 »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2011, 11:22:57 AM »
In Eastern Orthodoxy, incorrupt relics are a very important sign of a saint's holiness and sanctity.  There are many stories of saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church who have been incorrupt.  In the 20th century alone, for instance, we have St. John of San Francisco, St. Savvas the New of Kalymnos, St. John the Romanian, and others whose bodies have remained incorrupt for decades after their repose and whose incorrupt relics are a continual source of healing for many.  Do the Non-Chalcedonians also have saints who are incorrupt?  If so, I would be interested in reading the stories of such saints if Non-Chalcedonians would be willing to paste relevant passages from their books.  Please also share photos of such incorrupt relics.

Thank you.
I think Dostoevski made the relevant comment on such a mentality in the funeral of the Elder Zosimos.

The OO do have their incorrupt saints, but before we go there for your agenda, tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.
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Offline jah777

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2011, 12:11:44 PM »
tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.

This is a different subject which is worthy of a separate thread in a another forum other than "Oriental Orthodox Discussion" where I posted the present message.  If you would like to discuss claims regarding RC incorruptibles, please start a separate thread instread of diverting this present one.  In this thread, I am interested only in stories of Non-Chalcedon saints whose relics are incorrupt, and photos of such incorrupt relics, for the simple reason that I do not know of any. 

Offline Father Peter

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 12:44:31 PM »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2011, 12:54:15 PM »
There are many such examples.

Here is one...

http://www.erkohet.com/index.php/church-historym-fathers-a-saints/232-bishop-yousaab
tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.

This is a different subject which is worthy of a separate thread in a another forum other than "Oriental Orthodox Discussion" where I posted the present message.  If you would like to discuss claims regarding RC incorruptibles, please start a separate thread instread of diverting this present one.  In this thread, I am interested only in stories of Non-Chalcedon saints whose relics are incorrupt, and photos of such incorrupt relics, for the simple reason that I do not know of any.  
So, now you do. And?

Btw, I'll add Pope St. Cyril the Sixth (it's not official yet, as the Church doesn't glorify a saint until half a century after his falling asleep, but it is just a matter fo time).
http://albionfourthrome.blogspot.com/2011/01/pope-kyrillos-vis-relics-incorrupt.html
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 01:04:28 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
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Offline jah777

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2011, 01:04:57 PM »
There are many such examples.

Here is one...

http://www.erkohet.com/index.php/church-historym-fathers-a-saints/232-bishop-yousaab

Thank you, Fr. Peter, for responding to my inquiry.  Of course, I would be interested in reading about more examples if you have time to provide them.  I searched through the Coptic Synaxarium and could not find any examples, but perhaps I wasn't searching using the proper words.

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/synexarion/index.html
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 01:24:06 PM by jah777 »

Offline Fr.Kyrillos

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 02:14:45 PM »
This is Fr. Andrew the Samuelite who died in late 1989. He was a great modern saint who was blind from infancy and lived to be over 100 years old after living an extremely ascetic life.




May his prayers be with us.

Fr. Kyrillos

p.s. if the picture doesn't show up, go here:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/standrewsamualiteincorr.jpg/



« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 02:18:35 PM by Fr.Kyrillos »

Offline Father Peter

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 02:15:29 PM »
There are a lot. Just do a Google for 'incorrupt relics Coptic' and variants.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2011, 02:17:46 PM »
This is Fr. Andrew the Samuelite who died in late 1989. He was a great modern saint who was blind from infancy and lived to be over 100 years old after living an extremely ascetic life.


(img)(/img)

May his prayers be with us.

Fr. Kyrillos


tried to fix that.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 02:18:21 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Aram

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2011, 03:34:24 PM »
I don't know of any in the Armenian Church.  Or any particular emphasis on incorruptibility to begin with.

Then again, in a somewhat related aside, the Armenian Church has not glorified a new saint in over 500 years.  So that perhaps complicates things a bit.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 04:05:54 PM »
I don't know of any in the Armenian Church.  Or any particular emphasis on incorruptibility to begin with.

Then again, in a somewhat related aside, the Armenian Church has not glorified a new saint in over 500 years.  So that perhaps complicates things a bit.

Wow, that's odd. Weren't there any martyred by the Turks in the last centuries?
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Offline Aram

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2011, 04:34:46 PM »
I don't know of any in the Armenian Church.  Or any particular emphasis on incorruptibility to begin with.

Then again, in a somewhat related aside, the Armenian Church has not glorified a new saint in over 500 years.  So that perhaps complicates things a bit.

Wow, that's odd. Weren't there any martyred by the Turks in the last centuries?
Sure there were.  There's a pretty lengthy list of people who should be saints.  But there isn't an accepted process by which that happens, nor does it seem to be of particular urgency.

Offline copticmind

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2011, 04:11:59 AM »
Two famous examples from the Coptic Church:

Deacon Seedhom Beshay : http://goo.gl/YuFP9  (a Google image search page)

Father Botros Banoub: http://goo.gl/4R8BZ (The first 4 pictures)
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2011, 12:23:13 AM »
The Coptic Church communes his body? (Second picture for Deacon Seedhom Beshay)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 12:23:31 AM by Volnutt »

Offline Severian

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2011, 12:31:28 AM »
The Coptic Church communes his body? (Second picture for Deacon Seedhom Beshay)
From what I can see the Priest/Bishop is holding his body not communing it. Do you mind uploading the picture you are referring to?
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Offline copticmind

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2011, 05:08:57 AM »
The Coptic Church communes his body? (Second picture for Deacon Seedhom Beshay)

why would the church commune his body?!
It seems that seedhom Beshay's body is held in a position to show that his hair is still intact while the bishop is holding his skufia and a microphone.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2011, 07:45:50 AM »
The Coptic Church communes his body? (Second picture for Deacon Seedhom Beshay)

why would the church commune his body?!
It seems that seedhom Beshay's body is held in a position to show that his hair is still intact while the bishop is holding his skufia and a microphone.

On second look, you're right! I mistook the bishop's gold sleeve for the edge of the chalice.

Offline Aidan

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2011, 09:22:45 AM »
I have heard of saints being found as fresh and supple as the day they died (in British history, St Cuthbert is such an example).

Most bodies I have seen seem less than fresh. The most recent example was St John the Romanian who died in Palestine in 1960. I would not have expected small children to do anything else but run away in terror should they see him.

St Samuel seems in good shape (since we are discussing OO cases of incorrupt saints) but blackened.

Has anyone a picture or example of a saint found as incorrupt as the day he/she died?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2011, 09:56:45 AM »
St Alexander of Svir is kind of yellow but looks in pretty good shape though I haven't seen his face.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2011, 11:11:10 AM »
I have heard of saints being found as fresh and supple as the day they died (in British history, St Cuthbert is such an example).

Most bodies I have seen seem less than fresh. The most recent example was St John the Romanian who died in Palestine in 1960. I would not have expected small children to do anything else but run away in terror should they see him.

St Samuel seems in good shape (since we are discussing OO cases of incorrupt saints) but blackened.

Has anyone a picture or example of a saint found as incorrupt as the day he/she died?

I think "incorrupt" has to be understood as a relative term. Obviously, if they were fully incorrupt, they would still be alive. But these relics have been preserved in a way that most ordinary remains are not.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 11:11:42 AM by Iconodule »

Offline JimCBrooklyn

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2011, 11:22:11 AM »
In Eastern Orthodoxy, incorrupt relics are a very important sign of a saint's holiness and sanctity.  There are many stories of saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church who have been incorrupt.  In the 20th century alone, for instance, we have St. John of San Francisco, St. Savvas the New of Kalymnos, St. John the Romanian, and others whose bodies have remained incorrupt for decades after their repose and whose incorrupt relics are a continual source of healing for many.  Do the Non-Chalcedonians also have saints who are incorrupt?  If so, I would be interested in reading the stories of such saints if Non-Chalcedonians would be willing to paste relevant passages from their books.  Please also share photos of such incorrupt relics.

Thank you.
I think Dostoevski made the relevant comment on such a mentality in the funeral of the Elder Zosimos.

The OO do have their incorrupt saints, but before we go there for your agenda, tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.
Ferapontiousness.
It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2011, 11:32:29 AM »
In Eastern Orthodoxy, incorrupt relics are a very important sign of a saint's holiness and sanctity.  There are many stories of saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church who have been incorrupt.  In the 20th century alone, for instance, we have St. John of San Francisco, St. Savvas the New of Kalymnos, St. John the Romanian, and others whose bodies have remained incorrupt for decades after their repose and whose incorrupt relics are a continual source of healing for many.  Do the Non-Chalcedonians also have saints who are incorrupt?  If so, I would be interested in reading the stories of such saints if Non-Chalcedonians would be willing to paste relevant passages from their books.  Please also share photos of such incorrupt relics.

Thank you.
I think Dostoevski made the relevant comment on such a mentality in the funeral of the Elder Zosimos.

The OO do have their incorrupt saints, but before we go there for your agenda, tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.
Ferapontiousness.
???
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Severian

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2011, 11:33:11 AM »
In Eastern Orthodoxy, incorrupt relics are a very important sign of a saint's holiness and sanctity.  There are many stories of saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church who have been incorrupt.  In the 20th century alone, for instance, we have St. John of San Francisco, St. Savvas the New of Kalymnos, St. John the Romanian, and others whose bodies have remained incorrupt for decades after their repose and whose incorrupt relics are a continual source of healing for many.  Do the Non-Chalcedonians also have saints who are incorrupt?  If so, I would be interested in reading the stories of such saints if Non-Chalcedonians would be willing to paste relevant passages from their books.  Please also share photos of such incorrupt relics.

Thank you.
I think Dostoevski made the relevant comment on such a mentality in the funeral of the Elder Zosimos.

The OO do have their incorrupt saints, but before we go there for your agenda, tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.
Ferapontiousness.
???
Yeah... What's up?  ???
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -The Lord Jesus

The Saviour is made of elements which are distinct from one another yet He is not two Persons. God forbid! For both natures are one by the combination. -St. Gregory Nazianzen

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2011, 11:33:38 AM »
In Eastern Orthodoxy, incorrupt relics are a very important sign of a saint's holiness and sanctity.  There are many stories of saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church who have been incorrupt.  In the 20th century alone, for instance, we have St. John of San Francisco, St. Savvas the New of Kalymnos, St. John the Romanian, and others whose bodies have remained incorrupt for decades after their repose and whose incorrupt relics are a continual source of healing for many.  Do the Non-Chalcedonians also have saints who are incorrupt?  If so, I would be interested in reading the stories of such saints if Non-Chalcedonians would be willing to paste relevant passages from their books.  Please also share photos of such incorrupt relics.

Thank you.
I think Dostoevski made the relevant comment on such a mentality in the funeral of the Elder Zosimos.

The OO do have their incorrupt saints, but before we go there for your agenda, tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.
Ferapontiousness.
???

Fr. Ferapont was the one who made a big stink about Elder Zosima's odor of corruption.

Offline JimCBrooklyn

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Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2011, 11:35:34 AM »
Yeah, I'm just being dumb.

I don't deny any case of incorruption, but it ain't a deal-breaker.
It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
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