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Author Topic: Animals and souls  (Read 3648 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 28, 2011, 04:34:51 AM »

I was reading on a christian site and found a rather interesting article in which it is asked whether or not animals have souls. It made me thinking and I would like to ask, what is the orthodox view on animals? Andf what wll happen to them on the day of judgement?
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2011, 05:35:04 AM »

The Fathers are varied on this. Some say that if Sparky has been a good, good doggy that he will forever be awarded with honey-sweet yum-yums and kissies -- but that if he has been a bad, bad boy then he will be smacked forever with a rolled-up paper of unchanging truth. Others say that a dog who has justly pleased his master will dwell forever on his master's mantleplace, in an incorruptible state of freeze-dry -- while those dogs who provided an ultimately disappointing experience to their master will dwell in a state of eternal weird and unhealthy bonding with the master.

Cats, of course, go to heaven, as do hamsters and rats. Not so sure about elephants.
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2011, 06:07:06 AM »

On cats:

Who can believe that there is no soul behind those luminous eyes! (Theophile Gautier)
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2011, 06:32:25 AM »

If any animal has a soul, it's got to be dogs (and horses, but not dolphins - those things will sometimes chew up their young and roll 'em around with their heads, just for the fun of it).
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2011, 10:21:13 AM »

To treat this question more seriously, animals have an animal soul. It is not eternal. When animals die, so does their soul. For more on Orthodoxy and animals, read the book "Animals and Man: A State of Blessedness," it gives the Orthodox teaching as well as many lives of saints who had interactions with animals, and a prayer to St. Mamas for sick animals.

http://www.stspress.com/products-page/christianeducation-catechism/animals-and-man-a-state-of-blessedness/
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2011, 10:22:09 AM »

To treat this question more seriously, animals have an animal soul. It is not eternal. When animals die, so does their soul. For more on Orthodoxy and animals, read the book "Animals and Man: A State of Blessedness," it gives the Orthodox teaching as well as many lives of saints who had interactions with animals, and a prayer to St. Mamas for sick animals.

http://www.stspress.com/products-page/christianeducation-catechism/animals-and-man-a-state-of-blessedness/
Thank you Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2011, 10:28:30 AM »

To treat this question more seriously, animals have an animal soul. It is not eternal. When animals die, so does their soul. For more on Orthodoxy and animals, read the book "Animals and Man: A State of Blessedness," it gives the Orthodox teaching as well as many lives of saints who had interactions with animals, and a prayer to St. Mamas for sick animals.

http://www.stspress.com/products-page/christianeducation-catechism/animals-and-man-a-state-of-blessedness/

I always like this topic and because I trust God, I feel free to muse on an answer. 

God gave Adam the power to name the animals, among other things.  In that way "naming" has come down to us through tradition as a human act that has overtones of divinity...as in divinization or participation in the divine life.

In light of the power to name and the promise of participation in the divine life, I have mused that any animal that is close enough for me to name and who knows their name and responds to their name will in time be restored to life in the Kingdom and will share with me in everlasting life.

M.
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2011, 10:35:56 AM »

To treat this question more seriously, animals have an animal soul. It is not eternal. When animals die, so does their soul. For more on Orthodoxy and animals, read the book "Animals and Man: A State of Blessedness," it gives the Orthodox teaching as well as many lives of saints who had interactions with animals, and a prayer to St. Mamas for sick animals.

http://www.stspress.com/products-page/christianeducation-catechism/animals-and-man-a-state-of-blessedness/

I always like this topic and because I trust God, I feel free to muse on an answer.  

God gave Adam the power to name the animals, among other things.  In that way "naming" has come down to us through tradition as a human act that has overtones of divinity...as in divinization or participation in the divine life.

In light of the power to name and the promise of participation in the divine life, I have mused that any animal that is close enough for me to name and who knows their name and responds to their name will in time be restored to life in the Kingdom and will share with me in everlasting life.

M.

This is bizarre.
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2011, 10:39:27 AM »

I actually was wondering what the Orthodox opinion was on this subject a few weeks ago and found the "Orthodoxy and Animals" page from this website http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/ (near the middle of the page).
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2011, 12:05:11 PM »

I always like this topic and because I trust God, I feel free to muse on an answer.  

I don't really understand this. This sounds like the definition of prelest.

Quote
In light of the power to name and the promise of participation in the divine life, I have mused that any animal that is close enough for me to name and who knows their name and responds to their name will in time be restored to life in the Kingdom and will share with me in everlasting life.

So which of the animals that Adam and Eve named will be with them in everlasting life?

Your everlasting life would be no less complete without those animals.
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2011, 12:06:31 PM »

The Fathers are varied on this. Some say that if Sparky has been a good, good doggy that he will forever be awarded with honey-sweet yum-yums and kissies -- but that if he has been a bad, bad boy then he will be smacked forever with a rolled-up paper of unchanging truth. Others say that a dog who has justly pleased his master will dwell forever on his master's mantleplace, in an incorruptible state of freeze-dry -- while those dogs who provided an ultimately disappointing experience to their master will dwell in a state of eternal weird and unhealthy bonding with the master.

Cats, of course, go to heaven, as do hamsters and rats. Not so sure about elephants.

Thank you so much for mentioning ratties!  Smiley I've worked in animal welfare my entire life, and have done volunteer work for animal rescues, the most recent one being a (pet) rat rescue. It was actually my work with animals that brought me to Christ (long story!)

Here is an article about Orthodoxy and animals, btw: http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/flanagan_humans_animals.htm



Also here is another site: http://members.tripod.com/~Near_to_God/index.html  I was reading the guestbook on this site, btw, and found an entry from the very first person who ever taught me about Orthodoxy, 20 years ago! She was and is a great lover of the animal creation, and often told me stories of Orthodox saints who took care of animals.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 12:09:48 PM by Xenia1918 » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2011, 12:12:32 PM »

I always like this topic and because I trust God, I feel free to muse on an answer.  

I don't really understand this. This sounds like the definition of prelest.

Quote
In light of the power to name and the promise of participation in the divine life, I have mused that any animal that is close enough for me to name and who knows their name and responds to their name will in time be restored to life in the Kingdom and will share with me in everlasting life.

So which of the animals that Adam and Eve named will be with them in everlasting life?

Your everlasting life would be no less complete without those animals.

Nevermind...
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2011, 12:14:42 PM »

Those of you who love animals and believe in praying for their healing, please pray if you will for one of my rats, whose name is (unoriginally), "MommyRat".

We rescued her from a really atrocious situation in a nearby state a few months ago, where she was being abused and used as a snake food breeder. She was very terrified when we got her; we learned that some of her newborn babies had been taken from her and fed to a ball python, right in front of her. She had 2 babies left by the time we rescued her (along with 35 other rats, who now are in several animal rescues.)

She was super protective of the last 2 babies, and over the last few months we have spent a lot of time socializing her...she has come around, and I decided to adopt her and the last 2 babies so she never has to have them taken from her again.

But she has now developed a small tumor and because of where it is, chances are good it is malignant. Please pray that the vet will be able to remove it and she won't have a reoccurence (they don't have chemo for rats as far as I know.)

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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2011, 12:19:54 PM »

Those of you who love animals and believe in praying for their healing, please pray if you will for one of my rats, whose name is (unoriginally), "MommyRat".

We rescued her from a really atrocious situation in a nearby state a few months ago, where she was being abused and used as a snake food breeder. She was very terrified when we got her; we learned that some of her newborn babies had been taken from her and fed to a ball python, right in front of her. She had 2 babies left by the time we rescued her (along with 35 other rats, who now are in several animal rescues.)

She was super protective of the last 2 babies, and over the last few months we have spent a lot of time socializing her...she has come around, and I decided to adopt her and the last 2 babies so she never has to have them taken from her again.

But she has now developed a small tumor and because of where it is, chances are good it is malignant. Please pray that the vet will be able to remove it and she won't have a reoccurence (they don't have chemo for rats as far as I know.)


Lord have mercy!

I have heard of churches were they bless pets but I don't know if that is normal
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2011, 01:04:19 PM »

Those of you who love animals and believe in praying for their healing, please pray if you will for one of my rats, whose name is (unoriginally), "MommyRat".

We rescued her from a really atrocious situation in a nearby state a few months ago, where she was being abused and used as a snake food breeder. She was very terrified when we got her; we learned that some of her newborn babies had been taken from her and fed to a ball python, right in front of her. She had 2 babies left by the time we rescued her (along with 35 other rats, who now are in several animal rescues.)

She was super protective of the last 2 babies, and over the last few months we have spent a lot of time socializing her...she has come around, and I decided to adopt her and the last 2 babies so she never has to have them taken from her again.

But she has now developed a small tumor and because of where it is, chances are good it is malignant. Please pray that the vet will be able to remove it and she won't have a reoccurence (they don't have chemo for rats as far as I know.)


Lord have mercy!

I have heard of churches were they bless pets but I don't know if that is normal

I know the Anglicans and RCs (modern) do, and that's actually something I have been trying to find out, if any Orthodox churches also do.

I feel especially close to MommyRat; she lost at least 3 of her babies and I lost the same number myself (to stillbirth); I can relate to how she must feel. And now to have a possible cancer situation, she just doesn't deserve this. Sad Thank you so much for your prayers for her.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 01:06:21 PM by Xenia1918 » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2011, 01:07:21 PM »

I love rats.  In fact, I prefer them to people.  It is not unusual for female rats to get these tumors.  Since the pet rats we have come from lab rats, they were bred this way.  Again, where the sinfulness of man has affected nature.  These tumors can be removed, but they tend to come back.  That is one reason that I prefer to have male rats.  I have had to watch too many females suffer with these tumors.  May the God who is all merciful and loves His creation also be merciful to your pet MommyRat.

If you love rats, you may want to consider joining APOPO.  This is an organization that trains African Hamster Rats to find mines and to detect tuberculosis.  I am sure that rats will be in heaven.  Cats, on the other hand, come from the deepest depths of hell and should be shot on sight.  I hope one day to breed rats the size of lions, and then we will set this world straight.  Bwaaaaaaaaahhahahahahaha.


Those of you who love animals and believe in praying for their healing, please pray if you will for one of my rats, whose name is (unoriginally), "MommyRat".

We rescued her from a really atrocious situation in a nearby state a few months ago, where she was being abused and used as a snake food breeder. She was very terrified when we got her; we learned that some of her newborn babies had been taken from her and fed to a ball python, right in front of her. She had 2 babies left by the time we rescued her (along with 35 other rats, who now are in several animal rescues.)

She was super protective of the last 2 babies, and over the last few months we have spent a lot of time socializing her...she has come around, and I decided to adopt her and the last 2 babies so she never has to have them taken from her again.

But she has now developed a small tumor and because of where it is, chances are good it is malignant. Please pray that the vet will be able to remove it and she won't have a reoccurence (they don't have chemo for rats as far as I know.)



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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2011, 01:11:16 PM »

There are Orthodox prayers for sick animals, though I think these are done outside the church sanctuary. In more agrarian times, there was a lot of need for ministrations to sick animals, but in a way different from human beings.
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« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2011, 01:11:37 PM »

Not so sure about elephants.

Of course elephants go the heaven.

Elephantist!
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« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2011, 01:16:39 PM »


I know, the females tend to have mammary tumors. Fortunately most are benign, that's why I'm concerned about the one MommyRat has (usually when they are on the lower part of the body they tend to be malignant.) I hads a tumor removed from another ratty of ours last month, but that was benign. So far so good! (I had her spayed at the same time since spaying greatly reduces tumor reoccurence.)

I don't have a problem with cats; we have one right now who is very nice but strange (loves to attack bare feet, but only on men!) I had a cat years ago who thought she was a dog; she would "bark", fetch balls, pant, sit with her legs straight out he back like a dog, even had an ailment that our vet said usually only dogs get. Needless to say, her nickname was "Pup". lol

Its snakes I can't stand....for a wide variety of reasons. If it were not for a snake allowing Satan to enter it in the Garden of Eden, none of the distortions and sicknesses we see in Creation would have ever existed. Not to mention that they eat rats too. BOO on snakes!  Angry


I love rats.  In fact, I prefer them to people.  It is not unusual for female rats to get these tumors.  Since the pet rats we have come from lab rats, they were bred this way.  Again, where the sinfulness of man has affected nature.  These tumors can be removed, but they tend to come back.  That is one reason that I prefer to have male rats.  I have had to watch too many females suffer with these tumors.  May the God who is all merciful and loves His creation also be merciful to your pet MommyRat.

If you love rats, you may want to consider joining APOPO.  This is an organization that trains African Hamster Rats to find mines and to detect tuberculosis.  I am sure that rats will be in heaven.  Cats, on the other hand, come from the deepest depths of hell and should be shot on sight.  I hope one day to breed rats the size of lions, and then we will set this world straight.  Bwaaaaaaaaahhahahahahaha.


Those of you who love animals and believe in praying for their healing, please pray if you will for one of my rats, whose name is (unoriginally), "MommyRat".

We rescued her from a really atrocious situation in a nearby state a few months ago, where she was being abused and used as a snake food breeder. She was very terrified when we got her; we learned that some of her newborn babies had been taken from her and fed to a ball python, right in front of her. She had 2 babies left by the time we rescued her (along with 35 other rats, who now are in several animal rescues.)

She was super protective of the last 2 babies, and over the last few months we have spent a lot of time socializing her...she has come around, and I decided to adopt her and the last 2 babies so she never has to have them taken from her again.

But she has now developed a small tumor and because of where it is, chances are good it is malignant. Please pray that the vet will be able to remove it and she won't have a reoccurence (they don't have chemo for rats as far as I know.)




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« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2011, 01:19:13 PM »

Two prayers by St Basil the Great about animals.

The earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof.

O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us. We remember with shame that in the past we have exercised the high dominion of man with ruthless cruelty so that the voice of the earth, which should have gone up to Thee in song has been a groan of travail.
May we realize that they live not for us alone, but for themselves and for Thee and that they love the sweetness of life even as we, and serve Thee better in their place than we in ours.

For those, O Lord, the humble beasts, that bear with us the burden and heat of day, and offer their guileless lives for the well-being of mankind; and for the wild creatures, whom Thou hast made wise, strong, and beautiful, we supplicate for them Thy great tenderness of heart, for Thou hast promised to save both man and beast, and great is Thy loving kindness, O Master, Saviour of the world.
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« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2011, 01:34:31 PM »

I always like this topic and because I trust God, I feel free to muse on an answer.  

I don't really understand this. This sounds like the definition of prelest.

Quote
In light of the power to name and the promise of participation in the divine life, I have mused that any animal that is close enough for me to name and who knows their name and responds to their name will in time be restored to life in the Kingdom and will share with me in everlasting life.

So which of the animals that Adam and Eve named will be with them in everlasting life?

Your everlasting life would be no less complete without those animals.

Nevermind...

Please forgive, I spoke harshly.
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« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2011, 03:14:24 PM »

Two prayers by St Basil the Great about animals.

The earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof.

O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us. We remember with shame that in the past we have exercised the high dominion of man with ruthless cruelty so that the voice of the earth, which should have gone up to Thee in song has been a groan of travail.
May we realize that they live not for us alone, but for themselves and for Thee and that they love the sweetness of life even as we, and serve Thee better in their place than we in ours.

For those, O Lord, the humble beasts, that bear with us the burden and heat of day, and offer their guileless lives for the well-being of mankind; and for the wild creatures, whom Thou hast made wise, strong, and beautiful, we supplicate for them Thy great tenderness of heart, for Thou hast promised to save both man and beast, and great is Thy loving kindness, O Master, Saviour of the world.

Thank you so much for this, Poppy....I cried like a baby when I first read that prayer, after I began looking into joining the Orthodox Church. One of the things that always bothered me about the (Traditional) RCC was their stance on animals....I remember being told as a child by my Mom that what turned her against the RCC was a nun who told her that it didn't matter what you do to animals, because they don't have souls.

I always knew the true church would also respect ALL of God's Creation, and not only one part of it (man).
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 03:17:06 PM by Xenia1918 » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2011, 04:28:31 PM »

I always knew the true church would also respect ALL of God's Creation, and not only one part of it (man).

Oh I dunno, I could do without some animals in heaven. The female spiders that eat their mates after the deed is done... do we really need to have them around? Or how about the hagfish? do you really want to see an animal eating another animal from the inside out? Also, with our new bodies, "good" bacteria will be pretty much useless, and "bad" bacteria probably banned to hell.
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« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2011, 04:39:47 PM »

Of course they do.

http://www.italoamericano.com/italian%20connection/st_rocco.htm

St. Rocco ascended to Heaven, where he was welcomed by St. Peter, the Celestial Gatekeeper. When St. Peter refused to admit Roquet, St. Rocco insisted that the dog had saved his life.

St. Peter replied that a rooster had saved his soul, but that he had never even imagined taking him along to Heaven.
Refusing to abandon his faithful companion, St. Rocco sent news of this conflict and reached the ears of God the Father, who commanded that St. Rocco and Roquet be admitted to Heaven together.

When St. Peter complained about the neglect of his rooster and threatened to resign his post, the heavenly Father agreed that the bird should also enter.
Then the other Saints all made a claim for the animals that had served them - St. Jerome for his lion, St. Calm for his cat, St. Agnes for her lamb, and St. Francis for all the other birds and beasts.

And the Heavenly Father saw that he had no choice. He ordered St. Peter to throw open the Gates of Heaven to every creature who had servers His will.
And it was all the doing of St. Rocco and his little dog.

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« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2011, 04:56:17 PM »

Robb, The modern (post V2) RCC does seem to be more sympathetic to the idea of kindness to animals, but I wasn't part of that church, I was part of the pre-V2 RCC, as it was known before Vatican II and also in the Traditionalist movement.

They tend to adhere to statements like this one from "Moral Theology" (c 1961) by Fr Heribert Jone (TAN Publishers), Chapter 5, p144: (the parts I find offensive are in bold)

1. Man has no duties towards animals since they have no independent personality. Being ordained for the service of man, animals may be used for any ethical purpose. Such use is lawful even when it implies suffering and death for the animal. Vivisection, therefore, is lawful, provided it actually serves the advancement of science, and the animal is not made to suffer more than is absolutely necessary.

2. It is sinful, however, to cause an animal unnecessary pain. The sinfulness does not lie in the violation of a right than an animal may possess, but only in the action's  opposition to reason which forbids the needless causing of pain and death. In itself this would only be a venial sin. The action would be rendered more seriously sinful by its brutalizing effect on the tormentor himself, and even more so by the gratification of sadistic impulses often connected with such conduct.


The RCC was not always so nice to animals. Unfortunately the part of the RCC I belonged to was the traditional wing, which still adheres to the above. Yet, they have St Francis of Assisi and stories like the one you posted. I never could figure it out.

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« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2011, 05:12:59 PM »

And plants have souls as well.

All living things do.

Do prions have a soul? That is an interesting question.
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« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2011, 05:48:52 PM »

I'm pretty sure that most religions in the old days (With the exception of Hindu's, Jan's, and Quakers) Did not believe in or teach kindness towards animals.  I'm glad that the modern world and it's loving kindness has started a change (At least in Christianity) towards animals and their rights as creatures of God.
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« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2011, 07:10:35 PM »

I'm pretty sure that most religions in the old days (With the exception of Hindu's, Jan's, and Quakers) Did not believe in or teach kindness towards animals.  I'm glad that the modern world and it's loving kindness has started a change (At least in Christianity) towards animals and their rights as creatures of God.

Animals have as many rights at you have: none.

The sentimentalizing of animals is what you are referring to as "kindness". And we'll get to how "kind" we truly treat animals in a second.

What people who rely on animals for work and food abuse them? None if they are realistic.

However, today we have a whole industry that delivers your animals right to you which tortures them from birth till death, so you that you can have your meat cheaply and frequently.

Without a doubt I will say that more animals suffer at the hands of man in our world than ever before due to the meat and dairy industry.

You can enjoy bambi all you want and indulge in the decadent act of owning a "pet" that you attribute human qualities to, but you live in a world where animals suffer incredibly all around you.

See, I grew up killing animals myself to eat and keeping others to use for food. We treated them "well", like animals. We didn't ascribe to them human attributes. We cared for their health and they flourished.

The chickens didn't know of any cage.
The rabbits' hutch was generous in size.
The deer lived as it would until killed usually within an instant, if not minutes there after. (As did any animal that we harvested.)
The cattle we purchased from our neighbors were not huddled and crammed together and force fed grains and antibiotics.

And we sure didn't keep "pets". Our dogs were well trained to serve their job and were fun to play with. None were on psych meds. Would have darted off to chase another dog. Etc.

The cats lived about to serve a purpose.

Sorry, but your "modern" world has basically created a life misery for most of the animals that hit your plate or their eggs you eat, or their milk you drink.

 



 
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« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2011, 07:41:04 PM »

For what it's worth, there are a few animals that have attacked or killed people- it happens a few times a year, some small percentage- but at least I've never heard of a parakeet or goat that started a war.  Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2011, 07:44:08 PM »

For what it's worth, there are a few animals that have attacked or killed people- it happens a few times a year, some small percentage- but at least I've never heard of a parakeet or goat that started a war.  Smiley

No, but that have instigated a battle or two. They are stubborn and truculent sons-of-does.
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« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2011, 07:50:25 PM »

Does the subject of Animals include  politicians? police
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« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2011, 07:57:33 PM »

No, they are all androids.  Wink
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« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2011, 08:00:12 PM »

I'm pretty sure that most religions in the old days (With the exception of Hindu's, Jan's, and Quakers) Did not believe in or teach kindness towards animals.  I'm glad that the modern world and it's loving kindness has started a change (At least in Christianity) towards animals and their rights as creatures of God.

Animals have as many rights at you have: none.

The sentimentalizing of animals is what you are referring to as "kindness". And we'll get to how "kind" we truly treat animals in a second.

What people who rely on animals for work and food abuse them? None if they are realistic.

However, today we have a whole industry that delivers your animals right to you which tortures them from birth till death, so you that you can have your meat cheaply and frequently.

Without a doubt I will say that more animals suffer at the hands of man in our world than ever before due to the meat and dairy industry.

You can enjoy bambi all you want and indulge in the decadent act of owning a "pet" that you attribute human qualities to, but you live in a world where animals suffer incredibly all around you.

See, I grew up killing animals myself to eat and keeping others to use for food. We treated them "well", like animals. We didn't ascribe to them human attributes. We cared for their health and they flourished.

The chickens didn't know of any cage.
The rabbits' hutch was generous in size.
The deer lived as it would until killed usually within an instant, if not minutes there after. (As did any animal that we harvested.)
The cattle we purchased from our neighbors were not huddled and crammed together and force fed grains and antibiotics.

And we sure didn't keep "pets". Our dogs were well trained to serve their job and were fun to play with. None were on psych meds. Would have darted off to chase another dog. Etc.

The cats lived about to serve a purpose.

Sorry, but your "modern" world has basically created a life misery for most of the animals that hit your plate or their eggs you eat, or their milk you drink.

Wow, you really have to stop stealing my worldview. It's upsetting.
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« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2011, 08:15:59 PM »

I'm pretty sure that most religions in the old days (With the exception of Hindu's, Jan's, and Quakers) Did not believe in or teach kindness towards animals.  I'm glad that the modern world and it's loving kindness has started a change (At least in Christianity) towards animals and their rights as creatures of God.

Animals have as many rights at you have: none.

The sentimentalizing of animals is what you are referring to as "kindness". And we'll get to how "kind" we truly treat animals in a second.

What people who rely on animals for work and food abuse them? None if they are realistic.

However, today we have a whole industry that delivers your animals right to you which tortures them from birth till death, so you that you can have your meat cheaply and frequently.

Without a doubt I will say that more animals suffer at the hands of man in our world than ever before due to the meat and dairy industry.

You can enjoy bambi all you want and indulge in the decadent act of owning a "pet" that you attribute human qualities to, but you live in a world where animals suffer incredibly all around you.

See, I grew up killing animals myself to eat and keeping others to use for food. We treated them "well", like animals. We didn't ascribe to them human attributes. We cared for their health and they flourished.

The chickens didn't know of any cage.
The rabbits' hutch was generous in size.
The deer lived as it would until killed usually within an instant, if not minutes there after. (As did any animal that we harvested.)
The cattle we purchased from our neighbors were not huddled and crammed together and force fed grains and antibiotics.

And we sure didn't keep "pets". Our dogs were well trained to serve their job and were fun to play with. None were on psych meds. Would have darted off to chase another dog. Etc.

The cats lived about to serve a purpose.

Sorry, but your "modern" world has basically created a life misery for most of the animals that hit your plate or their eggs you eat, or their milk you drink.

Wow, you really have to stop stealing my worldview. It's upsetting.

In that case, I will not post my post amplifying your thoughts on praying to Saint X for Y.
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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2011, 08:19:37 PM »

I'm pretty sure that most religions in the old days (With the exception of Hindu's, Jan's, and Quakers) Did not believe in or teach kindness towards animals.  I'm glad that the modern world and it's loving kindness has started a change (At least in Christianity) towards animals and their rights as creatures of God.

Animals have as many rights at you have: none.

The sentimentalizing of animals is what you are referring to as "kindness". And we'll get to how "kind" we truly treat animals in a second.

What people who rely on animals for work and food abuse them? None if they are realistic.

However, today we have a whole industry that delivers your animals right to you which tortures them from birth till death, so you that you can have your meat cheaply and frequently.

Without a doubt I will say that more animals suffer at the hands of man in our world than ever before due to the meat and dairy industry.

You can enjoy bambi all you want and indulge in the decadent act of owning a "pet" that you attribute human qualities to, but you live in a world where animals suffer incredibly all around you.

See, I grew up killing animals myself to eat and keeping others to use for food. We treated them "well", like animals. We didn't ascribe to them human attributes. We cared for their health and they flourished.

The chickens didn't know of any cage.
The rabbits' hutch was generous in size.
The deer lived as it would until killed usually within an instant, if not minutes there after. (As did any animal that we harvested.)
The cattle we purchased from our neighbors were not huddled and crammed together and force fed grains and antibiotics.

And we sure didn't keep "pets". Our dogs were well trained to serve their job and were fun to play with. None were on psych meds. Would have darted off to chase another dog. Etc.

The cats lived about to serve a purpose.

Sorry, but your "modern" world has basically created a life misery for most of the animals that hit your plate or their eggs you eat, or their milk you drink.

Wow, you really have to stop stealing my worldview. It's upsetting.

In that case, I will not post my post amplifying your thoughts on praying to Saint X for Y.

Haha, no, please do -- I am feeling a bit alone in that thread.

I meant this as a compliment, I hope you know.
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« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2011, 09:54:33 PM »

No, they are all androids.  Wink
Thanks.  I was never certain if politicians had souls or not. Lips Sealed
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« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2011, 10:42:22 PM »

Animals have as many rights at you have: none.

Well, that's a comforting thought (I'm sure your the life of parties and other such social functions).

I'm pretty much talking about domesticated animals like dogs and cats and goldfish.  Not so much deer and elk and that kind of beast.

Animals do have souls and we will see them again when we die and go to Heaven.  They will meet us on the rainbow bridge.  I have seen images of my dead loved ones holding their beloved pets from behind the grave.  This is indisputable.  We not only live on after death, but so do our beloved pets, because nothing that is loved can ever truly die.
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« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2011, 12:07:35 AM »

I have seen images of my dead loved ones holding their beloved pets from behind the grave.  This is indisputable.
What is the connection between seeing these things, and their being true?

 We not only live on after death, but so do our beloved pets, because nothing that is loved can ever truly die.
So, if a human loves a certain kind of animal, the animal lives eternally? How does this eternal life come to be? I would imagine that the love of the Creator exceeds our own in kind and amount.

The creator loves nasty little worms far more deeply than any of us can ever, ever love little Sparky. The Creator loves the bacteria and larvae that consume our beloved, dead pets more than we loved the pets themselves, I imagine. And if a wolf eats my favorite duck -- well, the Creator loves the wolf no less than my duck.

I think that the limited human love you are talking about -- which might more properly be termed "affection" -- can't bring eternal life to a single thing. Even if the affection we have for animals has something of the divine and the eternal in it, those qualities can't confer eternal life on anything. That sounds too much like Hollywood to me. Why isn't it just enough to have the memories, and the wisdom that came from the relationship with the animal -- in the life of this world?

What is so troubling about eternal life without Sparky?
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« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2011, 12:12:42 AM »

"Let every..."
http://bible.cc/psalms/150-6.htm
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« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2011, 12:23:10 AM »

What is so troubling about eternal life without Sparky?

You obviously don't have any pets.  What would be so great about eternal life if you can't spend it with the ones you love (Or have affection for)? 

I still believe that nothing that one loves can truly ever cease to be. 
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« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2011, 12:27:55 AM »

What is so troubling about eternal life without Sparky?

You obviously don't have any pets.  What would be so great about eternal life if you can't spend it with the ones you love (Or have affection for)? 

I still believe that nothing that one loves can truly ever cease to be. 

Wow I agreed with Robb and Iconodule...this is a great day!
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« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2011, 04:37:48 AM »

Animals have as many rights at you have: none.

Well, that's a comforting thought (I'm sure your the life of parties and other such social functions).

I put both the fun and func back into social function, well not back, because such things never were fun nor had funk to begin with.

Really, when one refers to convivial intercourse as a social function, oh wait, you are an RC . . . //:=)
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« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2011, 07:02:12 AM »

I put both the fun and func back into social function, well not back, because such things never were fun nor had funk to begin with.

I put the ions back in social functions. And before the Fall, social functions were full of ions, let me tell you.

Ions don't have rights, though.
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« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2011, 08:20:45 AM »

Does the subject of Animals include politicians? police

http://theweek.com/article/index/212374/oregon-democrat-david-wus-bizarre-tiger-suit-photo

RRRaRRRR!

Lawyers in general have no soul.  Polticians demonstrate that.

But yes, Sparky has a soul.
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« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2011, 08:41:21 AM »

What is so troubling about eternal life without Sparky?

You obviously don't have any pets.  What would be so great about eternal life if you can't spend it with the ones you love (Or have affection for)? 

I still believe that nothing that one loves can truly ever cease to be. 

I held my dying childhood pet in my lap several years ago after my father hit her with his car. It was quite sad, but I have no expectations again. My affection makes nothing immortal.

I think I would much rather enter the Eternal Kingdom and see the people I neglected to love for who they really are. There are many: people I have perpetually and arrogantly ignored, walked past when they are in need, said no to when I might have just as easily said yes. I have thought many people ugly and not spoken to them. I have chased people from my life. All these people I might have known and loved if I gave them the chance.

It would be much better to meet these people eternally, to be stripped completely of pride, and all false social orders vanquished. I don't care so much about meeting my little poodle again. I also had a betta fish called Soluble Fish whose beauty I loved. There will be much greater beauty to come. And perhaps, something like fish there.

I am not disturbed about the eternal life of Sparky. I am more disturbed by depending on that idea. It would be like not wanting to live eternally because there won't be sex there.

And yes, rats and cats do go to heaven. But elephants? Is outrage
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