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Author Topic: Litanies without clergy?  (Read 875 times) Average Rating: 0
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bogdan
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« on: July 27, 2011, 09:50:02 AM »

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:DM3SZNTCbmcJ:www.ocf.net/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.00.23.22.Attached%2BFiles/1727.Day-of-Prayer-Service_2D002D00_No-Priest.pdf+OCF+services+litany&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi-b1CeUz1iVqyokSdg2OHd6jBC0tsRFnWBiYdEfWxg4NA-yM8Yz6gMHJQacpYVPyVNvpqbKQhNZO0aBF3BkSlnxX_uUrXabfpADLnMOE-Al3-LLXNn25OQlMP4iAJC1WC2QFVE&sig=AHIEtbT-e9IRZo2aIvHrMBG62NFuZB0KYA

This reader service from OCF includes some liturgical oddities, including a "lay litany" at the end. From what I know, this is in error and Fr. Kevin Scherer, OCF's director, should know better. Or am I wrong? Can lay people do litanies?
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2011, 10:41:54 AM »

Why not it no clergy are available? "Whenever two or more of you......"
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2011, 10:55:25 AM »

If we look here on this website of the Russian Church Abroad

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/hours_typica.htm

we find about 1/2 way down the page

"Commemoration of the living and departed"

Basically this fulfils the purpose of a Litany but in a Reader's Service.  It would be intoned from the choir desk by the Reader.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 11:08:25 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2011, 11:01:51 AM »

Having just looked this over, I think it is safe to say that it is a 'home-made' document patched together from various sources that don't match up.  For example, there are 'You who' and 'Thou art' translations interspersed with one another, I suppose to make is seem more 'pan-Orthodox' since there is not a uniform policy regarding translations across the various jurisdictions.  The absence of any 'imprimatur' from OCF's supervising hierarch(s) tells me this was Kevin's* own work.  Since we both went to seminary together, I am not surprised.  At the time I went to St. Vladimir's with him, liturgics were not emphasized.  I think it represented 4 units out of the entire MDiv program if I'm not mistaken, but I am hopeful that this has changed.

It probably would have been easier for him to just pick up a standard version of the reader's services and add the list of colleges at the end, but perhaps there was an issue of which jurisdiction to pick it from, since OCF is pan-Orthodox.

Some day, I hope one of the great liturgical minds of the Church would create a program to distill the basics of liturgics into a single reference source.  In a Church full of converts, it would indeed be helpful.


* - I am not being disrespectful, but he is no longer a priest.  







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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2011, 11:06:39 AM »

The litany that is included in this document is very similar to the one done at the end of Compline. It is a monastic litany that is said by the abbot/abbess. As you know it is possible in the Orthodox faith for an abbot to not be a cleric and it goes with out saying that abbess are not clerics (no deaconess debates please!).

This litany is not intoned and the lord have mercies are just said.

Also I am not sure how old this is or, if it is even current since, the priest who issued it has not been associated with OCF for over a year now and, may not even be a priest any longer.
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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2011, 10:35:33 PM »

So it is safe to conclude that this particular litany may be intoned by a reader or laymen in the context of a Reader's Service, it being traditionally intoned at the end of Compline and being newly attached to other hours.
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 11:00:44 PM »

This reader service from OCF includes some liturgical oddities, including a "lay litany" at the end. From what I know, this is in error and Fr. Kevin Scherer, OCF's director, should know better. Or am I wrong? Can lay people do litanies?

A note for future reference--OCF has a new executive director.

Back to regular scheduled programming.
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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2011, 11:30:18 PM »

So it is safe to conclude that this particular litany may be intoned by a reader or laymen in the context of a Reader's Service, it being traditionally intoned at the end of Compline and being newly attached to other hours.

Compline for the most part is a reader's service. This would be said and not intoned, none of the priestly replacement parts are intoned.
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2011, 11:59:07 PM »

So it is safe to conclude that this particular litany may be intoned by a reader or laymen in the context of a Reader's Service, it being traditionally intoned at the end of Compline and being newly attached to other hours.

Compline for the most part is a reader's service. This would be said and not intoned, none of the priestly replacement parts are intoned.

But as part of a Typica performed without a priest,  this is intoned and the choir responds.  Of course there is no knowing if the compiler of this Service was thinking of Typica or of Compline.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 12:00:36 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2011, 12:11:59 AM »

What is the significance of intoning a prayer rather than reading it?
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2011, 12:32:07 AM »

So it is safe to conclude that this particular litany may be intoned by a reader or laymen in the context of a Reader's Service, it being traditionally intoned at the end of Compline and being newly attached to other hours.

Compline for the most part is a reader's service. This would be said and not intoned, none of the priestly replacement parts are intoned.

But as part of a Typica performed without a priest,  this is intoned and the choir responds.  Of course there is no knowing if the compiler of this Service was thinking of Typica or of Compline.

What are you talking about? Typica without a priest has no litanies and everything is said, there is no "choir" without a priest present.
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2011, 12:39:49 AM »

Fr. Ambrose, perhaps you can help us all by explaining what services have petitions that can be said without clergy?  Previous to this thread, I did not know that abbots/abbesses have special liturgical functions.

I think you know my own level of ignorance when it comes to all but the most basic understanding of rubrics, so I can say without any reservation that your teachings on the matter would be most welcome.  No sarcasm here.  You are most certainly an expert on the matter.


So it is safe to conclude that this particular litany may be intoned by a reader or laymen in the context of a Reader's Service, it being traditionally intoned at the end of Compline and being newly attached to other hours.

Compline for the most part is a reader's service. This would be said and not intoned, none of the priestly replacement parts are intoned.

But as part of a Typica performed without a priest,  this is intoned and the choir responds.  Of course there is no knowing if the compiler of this Service was thinking of Typica or of Compline.

What are you talking about? Typica without a priest has no litanies and everything is said, there is no "choir" without a priest present.
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2011, 12:43:36 AM »


What are you talking about? Typica without a priest has no litanies and everything is said, there is no "choir" without a priest present.

We must come from differing traditions with regard to these things.

In the Russian Church Abroad the choir sings most of Typika (when no priest is present) - the Beatitudes, Trisagion, Creed, Our Father, troparia, etc.

The below is what substitutes for a kind of expanded Litany of Fervant Supplication...

 
Reader: Remember, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, Thy mercies and bounties which are from all eternity, and through which Thou didst become man and didst will to suffer crucifixion and death for the salvation of those who rightly believe in Thee, and having risen from the dead didst ascend into heaven, and sittest at the right hand of God the Father and regardest the humble entreaties of those who call upon Thee with all their heart: Incline thine ear, and hear the humble prayers of Thy worthless servants, as the fragrance of spiritual incense, which we offer to Thee for all people. And first remember Thy Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which Thou hast provided through Thy precious blood. Confirm, strengthen, extend, and increase her, and keep her in peace, and for ever proof against the power of hell. Calm the dissensions of the Churches, and foil the plans of the powers of darkness, dispel the prejudice of the nations and quickly ruin and root out the risings of heresy, and frustrate them by the power of the Holy Spirit.


Choir: Lord, have mercy (after every petition).


Reader: Save, O Lord, and have mercy on our president and all in authority throughout the world, commanders-in-chief of armies and navies and air-fleets, governors of provinces and cities, and all the Christ-loving navies, armies, and police; protect their power with peace, and subdue under their feet every enemy and foe, and speak peace and blessing in their hearts for Thy holy church, and for all Thy people, and grant that in their calm we too may lead a quiet and peaceful life in true belief, in all piety and honesty.


Choir: Lord, have mercy (after every petition).


Save, O Lord, and have mercy on Orthodox Bishops, the Priests and Deacons, and all who serve in the Church and whom Thou hast ordained to feed Thy spiritual flock; and by their prayers, have mercy on us sinners.

Save, O Lord, and have mercy on our parish priest(s); with all his (their) brethren in Christ, and by their prayers have mercy on us, wretches that we are.

Save, O Lord, and have mercy on our spiritual fathers and by their prayers forgive us our sins.

Save, O Lord, and have mercy on all workers in our parish, our brethren and sisters, and all Christians.

Save, O Lord, and have mercy on our parents, our brothers and sisters, and all of our relatives, and the neighbors of our families, and our friends. And grant the Thy worldly and spiritual goods.

Save, O Lord, and have mercy according to the multitude of Thy bounties, on all priests, monks, and nuns, and on all living in virginity, devotion, and fasting, in monasteries, in deserts, in caves, on mountains, on pillars, in hermitages, in the clefts of rocks, and right faith in every place of Thy dominion, and devoutly serving Thee, and praying to Thee. Lighten their burden, console them in their afflictions, and grant them strength, power, and perseverance in their struggle, and by their prayers grant us remission of our sins.

Save, O Lord, and have mercy on the old, and the young, the poor and destitute, the orphans and widows, the leper colonies, epileptics and spastics, and all those in sickness and sorrow, misfortune and tribulation, captives and exiles in mines, prisons, reformatories, psychiatric hospitals, and especially on those of Thy servants suffering persecution for Thy sake and for the Orthodox Faith from godless peoples, apostates, and heretics. Visit, strengthen, comfort, and heal them, and by Thy power quickly grant them relief, freedom, and deliverance.

Save, O Lord, and have mercy on our benefactors, who have mercy on us and feed us, and us of anxiety by giving us those things in which we stand of need, and entrust us, unworthy as we are, to pray for them; and give them Thy grace, and grant them all their requests which lead to salvation, and the attainment of eternal joy.

Save, O Lord, and have mercy on all in our parish, and on all Orthodox Christians who are messengers and missionaries in Thy service, and are travelling.

Save, O Lord, and have mercy on those whom each of us hast offended or scandalized by our madness or inadvertence, and whom we have turned from the way of salvation, and whom we have led into evil and harmful deeds. By Thy divine providence restore them again to the way of salvation.

Save, O Lord, and have mercy on those who hate and offend us, and do us harm, and let them not perish through us sinners.

Illumine with the light of grace all apostates from the Orthodox Faith, and those blinded by pernicious heresies, and draw them to Thyself, and unite them to Thy Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Church.

Remember, O Lord, those who have departed from this life, Orthodox kings and queens, princes and princesses, Orthodox Patriarchs, Metropolitans, Archbishops, and Bishops, Priests and Deacons, and those who have served Thee in the Monastic State, and the departed founders of this church and grant them rest with the Saints in Thy eternal dwellings.

Remember, O Lord, the souls of Thy servants who have departed in sleep, our parents and all of our relatives according to the flesh; forgive them every transgression, voluntary and involuntary; grant them the kingdom and a part in Thy eternal joys, and the delight of Thy blessed and everlasting life. Amen.


http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/hours_typica.htm


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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2011, 12:47:05 AM »

/\ One should point out that there are seven times seventy ways of doing Typica.   laugh

Some bishops will allow a Reader to read even the Gospel at a Reader's Typica, others won't allow it.
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2011, 01:03:47 AM »

/\ One should point out that there are seven times seventy ways of doing Typica.   laugh

Some bishops will allow a Reader to read even the Gospel at a Reader's Typica, others won't allow it.

I really think the practice you are prescribing has arisen due to a lack of priest. If you read the monastic typikons (I recommend the ones published by Dumbarton-Oaks because I think it is the only one published in English) you will see a variety practice but, the services are structured similarly.

The prevailing rule is that when a priest is not present, things are done in the most simple manner. Very little is intoned and everything is said from the choir areas and nothing on the Solea. Any censing that is done, is with a hand censer. Vestments are never put on, unless a member of the deaconate has been given a blessing to distribute the reserve sacrament and then, they only vest to distribute communion.
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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2011, 01:17:58 AM »

/\ One should point out that there are seven times seventy ways of doing Typica.   laugh

Some bishops will allow a Reader to read even the Gospel at a Reader's Typica, others won't allow it.

I really think the practice you are prescribing has arisen due to a lack of priest. If you read the monastic typikons (I recommend the ones published by Dumbarton-Oaks because I think it is the only one published in English) you will see a variety practice but, the services are structured similarly.

The prevailing rule is that when a priest is not present, things are done in the most simple manner. Very little is intoned and everything is said from the choir areas and nothing on the Solea. Any censing that is done, is with a hand censer. Vestments are never put on, unless a member of the deaconate has been given a blessing to distribute the reserve sacrament and then, they only vest to distribute communion.

Arimathea,

What  I am describing with the music is what happens in the Russian Church in England, Australia and New Zealand when Typica is conducted with a Reader and a choir.  I refer you to the Reader's Typica on the site of Bp Alexander Mileant and you will see the large portion of the Service appointed to be sung by the choir...
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/hours_typica.htm

Are you describing Antiochian practice? Greek? I am not familiar with them.
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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2011, 10:19:16 AM »

/\ One should point out that there are seven times seventy ways of doing Typica.   laugh

Some bishops will allow a Reader to read even the Gospel at a Reader's Typica, others won't allow it.

I really think the practice you are prescribing has arisen due to a lack of priest. If you read the monastic typikons (I recommend the ones published by Dumbarton-Oaks because I think it is the only one published in English) you will see a variety practice but, the services are structured similarly.

The prevailing rule is that when a priest is not present, things are done in the most simple manner. Very little is intoned and everything is said from the choir areas and nothing on the Solea. Any censing that is done, is with a hand censer. Vestments are never put on, unless a member of the deaconate has been given a blessing to distribute the reserve sacrament and then, they only vest to distribute communion.

Arimathea,

What  I am describing with the music is what happens in the Russian Church in England, Australia and New Zealand when Typica is conducted with a Reader and a choir.  I refer you to the Reader's Typica on the site of Bp Alexander Mileant and you will see the large portion of the Service appointed to be sung by the choir...
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/hours_typica.htm

Are you describing Antiochian practice? Greek? I am not familiar with them.

My point is what you are describing is the ROCOR practice and, that the practice of ROCOR, I would say, is a very modern invention. Until the collapse of the Rus Empire, when would there ever be a need to have Typica lead by a reader?

Just because something is being done, does not mean it is a proper or even a good practice. I would dare say this innovation of making Typica a "high church" service is a more dangerous innovation then pews or saying the anaphora aloud because, it destroys the soul of those who lead these services. Over the years I have run into a number of minor clergy from ROCOR, here in the state, who have a a huge priest complex, without any formal training, who are the primary clergy for a parish. While it is very dangerous for the faithful around them, it is even more dangerous for these minor clergy's soul. 

Please do not take this as a blast on ROCOR as a whole. I think you can find the same practice happening in Antiochian, Carpatho-Russian and, OCA parishes. It is playing church and, unhealthy for the parish in the long run. If we treat these non-priest services in a humble and simple way it makes those services with the priest special. When services are said without a priest it is due to a hardship and therefore does not require all the joys that are found in the a service with a priest.
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« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2011, 11:05:50 AM »

Well, the theme of the thread is "Litanies without clergy?" and I have just been addressing that really.

I have no problem with Sunday Typica in a priestless parish being as beautiful as possible with music from the choir.   People would probably give it a miss if were only a Reader droning on in a lugubrious monotone for 20 minutes on a cold morning in a cold church.   A beautiful Typica service assists mission parishes to consolidate, attract new members and, eventually, have enough members to warrant the bishop assigning a priest.
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« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2011, 11:30:36 AM »

Since our priest is at the Archdiocese Convention this weekend, we will have what we call "Orthrotypika"  Cheesy. That is, Sunday Orthros without a priest, followed by Reader's Typika. The Orthros service differs minimally from when our priest is present - litanies are replaced with 12 or 40 "Lord, have mercys" and there is no Gospel reading. Otherwise, everything is sung as usual. We do read the Epistle and Gospel in Typika in plain voice. Our priest has asked us to continue with the usual DL responses at the Gospel reading (Glory to Thee, O Lord; etc.) since that's what the congregation is used to. This combined service runs 75-90 minutes, about the length of our DL.

We are a mission parish using rented space. Vespers is served only occasionally in any case, so we've never done any other sort of reader's service.
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« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2011, 11:55:08 AM »

Well, the theme of the thread is "Litanies without clergy?" and I have just been addressing that really.

I have no problem with Sunday Typica in a priestless parish being as beautiful as possible with music from the choir.   People would probably give it a miss if were only a Reader droning on in a lugubrious monotone for 20 minutes on a cold morning in a cold church.   A beautiful Typica service assists mission parishes to consolidate, attract new members and, eventually, have enough members to warrant the bishop assigning a priest.

Makes sense to me.
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