Topic: The Escape Hatch

[Volnutt]

  I need to apologize to you guys. I've been terrible in this thread. You all make such good points and all I've done was lash out in anger.

I'll try to take your advice. Please pray for me.

[akimori makoto]

And yet cuius regio eius religio is a principle of international law.

Obviously hasn't led to you being "Australian, therefore Anglican."

Yes, but this is a result of the last five minutes of history, not some kind of theological advantage deeply embedded in protestantism: cf. Calvin's Geneva.

This idea that many conservative and theologically-aware protestants have (I class you amongst them as a compliment) that we all confess the Nicene Creed so we're all spiritually okay really did not exist until five minutes ago, historically. Not only that, as you know, I have challenged you in other threads as to how much many modern protestants really confess the Nicene faith and will continue to do so because I truly believe many of them do not.

I truly do not recognise the God of Calvin (or, perhaps more correctly: the Calvinists) as the God of my Fathers, and yet I don't believe Calvin would have been afraid to recite the Nicene Creed. Leaving aside ecclesiology and the Lord's promises that the Spirit will guide his church, do you really believe I would be doing myself no spiritual damage by leaving the Holy Tables of Orthodoxy to worship at Calvin's altar? For ecclesiology, if you find the Orthodox take on it so troubling, but the inescapable bottom line is this: doctrine matters.

I need to apologize to you guys. I've been terrible in this thread. You all make such good points and all I've done was lash out in anger.

I'll try to take your advice. Please pray for me.

I echo Asteriktos' point re sincerity and will add that a person who is willing to continually examine himself and make apology makes not only the better interlocutor but the better Christian.

[Asteriktos]

I need to apologize to you guys. I've been terrible in this thread. You all make such good points and all I've done was lash out in anger.

I'll try to take your advice. Please pray for me.

Don't sweat it, generally people around here aren't going to hold it against anyone for disagreeing, even vehemently at times. One of the things I like about this forum is that, while many people (myself included) will get into arguments and even mud-slinging on some threads, sincerity is still prized and goes a long way.

[Seraphim Rose]

I need to apologize to you guys. I've been terrible in this thread. You all make such good points and all I've done was lash out in anger.

I'll try to take your advice. Please pray for me.

Don't sweat it, generally people around here aren't going to hold it against anyone for disagreeing, even vehemently at times. One of the things I like about this forum is that, while many people (myself included) will get into arguments and even mud-slinging on some threads, sincerity is still prized and goes a long way.

I think the invectives and polemics around here kick *ss. There is a kind of dispassionate zeal that is utterly refreshing in this world of political correctness vs. fundamentalism.

[Volnutt]

And yet cuius regio eius religio is a principle of international law.

Obviously hasn't led to you being "Australian, therefore Anglican."

Yes, but this is a result of the last five minutes of history, not some kind of theological advantage deeply embedded in protestantism: cf. Calvin's Geneva.

This idea that many conservative and theologically-aware protestants have (I class you amongst them as a compliment) that we all confess the Nicene Creed so we're all spiritually okay really did not exist until five minutes ago, historically. Not only that, as you know, I have challenged you in other threads as to how much many modern protestants really confess the Nicene faith and will continue to do so because I truly believe many of them do not.

I truly do not recognise the God of Calvin (or, perhaps more correctly: the Calvinists) as the God of my Fathers, and yet I don't believe Calvin would have been afraid to recite the Nicene Creed. Leaving aside ecclesiology and the Lord's promises that the Spirit will guide his church, do you really believe I would be doing myself no spiritual damage by leaving the Holy Tables of Orthodoxy to worship at Calvin's altar? For ecclesiology, if you find the Orthodox take on it so troubling, but the inescapable bottom line is this: doctrine matters.

Yes, the the falseness in much of Protestant theology is still something I'm trying to come to grips with. And no, I don't think you'd be doing yourself no damage. Actually, part of me still holds out hope Orthodoxy could be the best without being the only. *sigh*...

I need to apologize to you guys. I've been terrible in this thread. You all make such good points and all I've done was lash out in anger.

I'll try to take your advice. Please pray for me.

I echo Asteriktos' point re sincerity and will add that a person who is willing to continually examine himself and make apology makes not only the better interlocutor but the better Christian.

Thanks.

[akimori makoto]

It's easier once you're in the Church, trust me.

[IsmiLiora]

Volnutt, nothing personal on my side, either. I am coming from where you come from, so I feel just as strongly about it. Your doubts and misgivings are nothing to discount, as if you are coming in to the Church, you should come into it with full willingness and acceptance.

As a humble catechumen, I will say a prayer for you as well. It's not easy to make a decision when you're bombarded with all this information. Reading about the scandals certainly put a damper on my Orthodox zeal. Reading the Church Fathers about spiritual matters and staying away from polemics for the time being has helped a lot.

[HabteSelassie]

greetings in that divine and most precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I need to apologize to you guys. I've been terrible in this thread. You all make such good points and all I've done was lash out in anger.

I'll try to take your advice. Please pray for me.

Considering the situation within the Catholic Church its completely understandable, there is a good deal to get rightfully get upset about. It must be extremely trying on folks' faith and endurance to be able to stay focused in such circumstances. But getting all Protestant about things is really how we got into these kinds of messes in the first place.  My opinion of sincere Protestants is that when they choose in any era to leave the Church then some of the brightest and most pious folks leave and in so doing leave behind those worst that they were upset about.  Rather, they should stick it out in faith of the Divine Mysteries/Sacraments and allow God in His Grace and time to heal all the wounds and either bring any scoundrels to repentance or drive them away, but the good folks shouldn't be the first to start packing that is backwards. 

While in Orthodox we may not be currently dealing with crises of similar proportion as to what has been happening in the Catholic Church, still we have plenty of our own gripe.  The key is to take in prayer, and not to get discouraged, as the Apostle Paul told us, "We must not grow weary while doing good."

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[PrincessMommy]

It's easier once you're in the Church, trust me.

and

Volnutt, nothing personal on my side, either. I am coming from where you come from, so I feel just as strongly about it. Your doubts and misgivings are nothing to discount, as if you are coming in to the Church, you should come into it with full willingness and acceptance.

As a humble catechumen, I will say a prayer for you as well. It's not easy to make a decision when you're bombarded with all this information. Reading about the scandals certainly put a damper on my Orthodox zeal. Reading the Church Fathers about spiritual matters and staying away from polemics for the time being has helped a lot.

what they said. 

[theo philosopher]

You can leave the local church if the pastor is abusive, but then others are left to face his abuse.

Within the Orthodox Church, if the priest is doing something abusive, then he can be removed by the Bishop. The local body is not broken and the universal body continues onward.

If that can't happen, you can always change parishes (assuming your town has more than one orthodox parish).

Trust me, I understand what you're talking about because I've lived through problems with a pastor. But the idea that we can "just leave" doesn't work either, because you're still going to a church in that area. In my case, the pastor (and others) from the church I was leaving called the church they found out I was attending. Even when I moved out of the state they called some of the churches in the area I was moving to in order to "warn" them about me. So if your pastor is especially vengeful then there is no leaving the problem - it'll follow you around.

[PrincessMommy]

Trust me, I understand what you're talking about because I've lived through problems with a pastor. But the idea that we can "just leave" doesn't work either, because you're still going to a church in that area. In my case, the pastor (and others) from the church I was leaving called the church they found out I was attending. Even when I moved out of the state they called some of the churches in the area I was moving to in order to "warn" them about me. So if your pastor is especially vengeful then there is no leaving the problem - it'll follow you around.

    Good grief!  That's is awful.  Doesn't sound very pastoral either.

[ialmisry]

I need to apologize to you guys. I've been terrible in this thread. You all make such good points and all I've done was lash out in anger.

I'll try to take your advice. Please pray for me.

Don't sweat it, generally people around here aren't going to hold it against anyone for disagreeing, even vehemently at times. One of the things I like about this forum is that, while many people (myself included) will get into arguments and even mud-slinging on some threads, sincerity is still prized and goes a long way.

Then there are exceptions:

Does anyone think I should just ask FrChris permission to access the private fora even though I haven't even been here for two weeks? I guess it couldn't hurt to try.

So... should I? I just want to get advice from more experienced posters on OC.net so I don't look like a complete fool for asking him prematurely. But, I assume 'one month' means 'one month'. I was just wondering if there were any exceptions.

I heard a story about someone who was here 3 weeks and asked FrChris to join the private fora. FrChris showed up at his house and murdered his entire family.

How did you hear about that event? I thought all the witnesses had 'disappeared'....

[ialmisry]

The recent bull**** in Ireland has made me realize something. Protestantism has a real blessing-the ability to leave. You don't have to deal with a hierarchy or pastor when it's corrupt and self-serving and refuses to let justice be done, to show love. You can kick the dust off your shoes and not have any earthly connection to whatever pig in a cassock (or suit and tie) who laid his sick hands on your child or monk who's scamming money from people or the money-whore bishops or denominational leaders or church boards who hide them from accountability.

You can leave the church, you can leave the denomination, you can even form a house church like Christians used to when satan stirred up evil against them. Thank God for the freedom to break off ties. I wish the EO and RC had that kind of safety hatch because trust is becoming a mighty thin commodity these days. 

When Sodom and Gomorra have come inside the church, Love (not Pride) gives them a way out.

When a number of prominent evangelists were exposed, and the denomination to which they belonged attempted to discipline them, they simply left and continued on as business as usual.

Accountability is Apostolic.  The failure of the Vatican to exercise it doesn't change that.

[ialmisry]

There's nothing to prevent even worse things happening when one strikes off on his own.

Then you keep going.

And where does one go when "everybody else is wrong"?

La petite eglise, the communion of one (sometimes literrally: someone I knew ran into a former Episopalian priest who was at least honest enough to recognize that no one believed as he did.  He would have daily mass and commune himself).

[theo philosopher]

Trust me, I understand what you're talking about because I've lived through problems with a pastor. But the idea that we can "just leave" doesn't work either, because you're still going to a church in that area. In my case, the pastor (and others) from the church I was leaving called the church they found out I was attending. Even when I moved out of the state they called some of the churches in the area I was moving to in order to "warn" them about me. So if your pastor is especially vengeful then there is no leaving the problem - it'll follow you around.

    Good grief!  That's is awful.  Doesn't sound very pastoral either.

Oh that's the lighter side of it too. It was actually far worse than that (it eventually led to me losing a scholarship at a Baptist college, even witha  4.2 GPA [honors courses counted, it was still a 4.0 scale]).

But on the other side, my parent's pastor is a wonderful man. He's extremely humble, he's very loving, he's generous, and has a true heart for God. Whereas many pastors I know want their congregations to help them, this pastor will go and help build a fence for a member who needs help or mow the grass for an elderly member (or send one of his sons to do it, or find someone who can do it if he can't). So it's not like all Protestant pastors are horrible.

[Volnutt]

You can leave the local church if the pastor is abusive, but then others are left to face his abuse.

Within the Orthodox Church, if the priest is doing something abusive, then he can be removed by the Bishop. The local body is not broken and the universal body continues onward.

If that can't happen, you can always change parishes (assuming your town has more than one orthodox parish).

Trust me, I understand what you're talking about because I've lived through problems with a pastor. But the idea that we can "just leave" doesn't work either, because you're still going to a church in that area. In my case, the pastor (and others) from the church I was leaving called the church they found out I was attending. Even when I moved out of the state they called some of the churches in the area I was moving to in order to "warn" them about me. So if your pastor is especially vengeful then there is no leaving the problem - it'll follow you around.

Yeah, that is pretty bad. 

[PrincessMommy]

Oh that's the lighter side of it too. It was actually far worse than that (it eventually led to me losing a scholarship at a Baptist college, even witha  4.2 GPA [honors courses counted, it was still a 4.0 scale]).

But on the other side, my parent's pastor is a wonderful man. He's extremely humble, he's very loving, he's generous, and has a true heart for God. Whereas many pastors I know want their congregations to help them, this pastor will go and help build a fence for a member who needs help or mow the grass for an elderly member (or send one of his sons to do it, or find someone who can do it if he can't). So it's not like all Protestant pastors are horrible.

I agree.  I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly as well in my day...but your experience is quite the extreme.

[genesisone]

There's nothing to prevent even worse things happening when one strikes off on his own.

Then you keep going.

And where does one go when "everybody else is wrong"?

La petite eglise, the communion of one (sometimes literrally: someone I knew ran into a former Episopalian priest who was at least honest enough to recognize that no one believed as he did.  He would have daily mass and commune himself).

Exactly. In another thread, our friend, David Young, described a church he attended at one time that had been founded by one man. David Young and his wife had the good sense to leave when the problems became apparent.

I will admit, though, it's hard to learn to submit to another's authority and not seek one's own way. Sometimes it's hard to discern whether there really is a problem which is not of one's own doing or whether the problem is simply pride and arrogance.

[orthonorm]

Oh that's the lighter side of it too. It was actually far worse than that (it eventually led to me losing a scholarship at a Baptist college, even witha  4.2 GPA [honors courses counted, it was still a 4.0 scale]).

Your high school wasn't big on math?

I lulz at these ridiculous steps taken in suburbia or reclaimed urban schools.

I went to school in the sticks. Even those hillbillies knew on a 4.0 scale you couldn't get a grade above it.

Honors. lulz.

Our silly backwoods school I bet produced more National Merit Finalists than the closest "prestigious" school per class graduated.


EDIT: Oh that and violent criminals and meth addicts. Balance and all that.

 

[Shiny]

My high school also went above the 4.0 GPA as well, weighted of course with AP/Honors courses. I had a friend of mine back in the day who tried too hard to get a 5.0.

[Volnutt]

Oh that's the lighter side of it too. It was actually far worse than that (it eventually led to me losing a scholarship at a Baptist college, even witha  4.2 GPA [honors courses counted, it was still a 4.0 scale]).

Your high school wasn't big on math?

I lulz at these ridiculous steps taken in suburbia or reclaimed urban schools.

I went to school in the sticks. Even those hillbillies knew on a 4.0 scale you couldn't get a grade above it.

Honors. lulz.

Our silly backwoods school I bet produced more National Merit Finalists than the closest "prestigious" school per class graduated.


EDIT: Oh that and violent criminals and meth addicts. Balance and all that.

 

And violent, meth addicted, National Merit Finalists?

[orthonorm]

Oh that's the lighter side of it too. It was actually far worse than that (it eventually led to me losing a scholarship at a Baptist college, even witha  4.2 GPA [honors courses counted, it was still a 4.0 scale]).

Your high school wasn't big on math?

I lulz at these ridiculous steps taken in suburbia or reclaimed urban schools.

I went to school in the sticks. Even those hillbillies knew on a 4.0 scale you couldn't get a grade above it.

Honors. lulz.

Our silly backwoods school I bet produced more National Merit Finalists than the closest "prestigious" school per class graduated.


EDIT: Oh that and violent criminals and meth addicts. Balance and all that.

 

And violent, meth addicted, National Merit Finalists?

That would be my soul mate.

[Volnutt]

She'll spend all your money on battery acid, cough syrup, and books by Noam Chomsky.

[orthonorm]

She'll spend all your money on battery acid, cough syrup, and books by Noam Chomsky.

*ZING* Awesome! Well played.

[Seraphim Rose]

There's nothing to prevent even worse things happening when one strikes off on his own.

Then you keep going.

And where does one go when "everybody else is wrong"?

La petite eglise, the communion of one (sometimes literrally: someone I knew ran into a former Episopalian priest who was at least honest enough to recognize that no one believed as he did.  He would have daily mass and commune himself).

"Wherever me, myself, and I are gathered..."

[FountainPen]

A lot of you make extremely good points in this thread. As i read through the replies, i thought about the various scandles that happened in the church i attended and other churches local to us that also had major scandles both financial and sexual. The church down the road from us (Elim) had both the pastors in a 'special' relationship with each other which broke up one of their marriages and seriously damaged the others' marriage. They are both still in their positions in the same church even today but the church went from 700, pretty sizable for some parts of the UK, to 50 or so members and is struggling to grow beyond that number even now.

Both of these churches call ahead to the new church a person goes to, which is considered a loving thing to do. Mainly to help prevent a person becoming a 'spiritual butterfly' and secondly, so that the Churches In Unity can keep tabs on people who go from one church to another causing trouble or leaving with business unfinished from their last church. It's a terrible thing to have happen because the new pastor tends to believe what the last pastor is telling them, no matter what the evidence is to suggest otherwise.

I wanted to provide support for the fact that this does happen.

I can also see what's being said about priests, bishops and pastors being fallllible human beings and it's not about how perfect the leaderships Christian lives are because we're all being saved. On one hand there are the abuses and scandles that see protestants leaving their churches and i did that, i can empathise, i left after my leader left because of a major injustice done to them by the other leaders in the church. On the other hand though, there are people in congragations who seek to control their (good and decent) church leaders for no other reason than personal gain sometimes status, power or both.

I'm thinking the way that Orthodoxy is structured, this wouldn't happen in your churches?

[KBN1]

There's nothing to prevent even worse things happening when one strikes off on his own.

Then you keep going.

And where does one go when "everybody else is wrong"?

La petite eglise, the communion of one (sometimes literrally: someone I knew ran into a former Episopalian priest who was at least honest enough to recognize that no one believed as he did.  He would have daily mass and commune himself).

Exactly. In another thread, our friend, David Young, described a church he attended at one time that had been founded by one man. David Young and his wife had the good sense to leave when the problems became apparent.

I will admit, though, it's hard to learn to submit to another's authority and not seek one's own way. Sometimes it's hard to discern whether there really is a problem which is not of one's own doing or whether the problem is simply pride and arrogance.

And the beauty of the Orthodox church is that those that we are asked to submit ourselves to also submit to others.  Mutuality and whatnot. 

[biro]

I don't really hear that very much.

[akimori makoto]

I'm thinking the way that Orthodoxy is structured, this wouldn't happen in your churches?

I think such things still do happen, but we have better mechanisms for correcting them.