OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 28, 2014, 01:20:04 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Silent Prayers, Anaphora, Epiclesis  (Read 3642 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Paisius
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Multi-Jurisdictional
Posts: 816


Reframed


« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2011, 02:34:49 PM »

According to North American Protestant ideals?


The Protestant ideals of Metropolitan Hilarion apparently.  Tongue



That being said I've never understood why we devote entire threads to issues like this. Why do we feel the need to control the way other people do things? If the Greeks want to have pews and organs let them have pews and organs. If the Russians don't want those things they don't have to have them. If a priest or bishop wants some or all of the prayers read aloud that is up to them. If you don't like one thing or another then that is your problem not theirs, and you need to deal with it.

There are countless variations in rites, prayers, customs, traditions and practices within Orthodoxy today and even more so over the centuries. It spans across all nations throughout the history of the Church. It is a wonderful testimony to our freedom in Christ and our living faith. It should be celebrated, not derided.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 02:40:31 PM by Paisius » Logged

"Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest?" - Milton Friedman
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,449



« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2011, 02:52:14 PM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 

I prefer to hear the silent prayers myself. Smiley

As-Salamu alaykum!

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces.  But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.
If it makes you happier, the Emperor Justinian outlawed the practice of silent prayers, which originated among the Nestorians, btw.

So exactly what chariot racing club would I then be for in Constantinople at that time?  Ok, I guess then since the response to the Epeclesis is a deacon's prayer and the people are now performing diaconal duties I guess then Mary can incense the church while Peter or Johnny recite the litanies.  Why not let Francis or Sue celebrate the proskomedia with the priest while we are at it?  It's ok if we do, since according to ANorth American protestant ideals, if it feels good and makes the individual happy who cares about the scred order orf things?  I guess its ok to invent things and reassign duties assigned to ordained clergy to the laiyity
Sorry, the DL didn't originate in turn of the previous century Pennsylvania among Galician immigrants.

Setting aside that the deacon is nothing more in essence than a glorified layman, and that back in the old country-i.e. Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem, on whose earth Christ walked-the congregation says their "Amen" to the Anamnesis and the Epiclesis, what made you think that Justinian was a North American Protestant?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2011, 03:04:10 PM »

in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me"

The practice you are arguing against does emphasize the liturgy as being about "us" as it has the entire congregation involved and follows the same pattern of prayer as the rest of the liturgy - the priest says the prayer and then the people give their "amen" making that prayer a unified work of the whole people of God (literally what "liturgy" means) gathered together as the Church.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
AWR
Greetings from the Southern Jersey Shore.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 240


Expelled from Paradise


WWW
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2011, 03:55:01 PM »

I have what may be an  unrelated question or it may have been asked somewhere else, but I'll ask it here.

Is the practice of saying  the "Silent Prayers"  aloud connected to the practice of of skipping the Litany for the Catechumens?  It seems that if one is done, that other is done.  Or is this just coincidence?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 03:55:30 PM by AWR » Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,053


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2011, 04:12:36 PM »

Is the practice of saying  the "Silent Prayers"  aloud connected to the practice of of skipping the Litany for the Catechumens?  It seems that if one is done, that other is done.  Or is this just coincidence?

In my opinion, it's coincidental.  ISTM that the Litany of the Catechumens (and the first Prayer of the Faithful) fell out of practice in some Liturgical traditions because there were not many adult catechumens for a long period of time.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2011, 04:15:35 PM »

Is the practice of saying  the "Silent Prayers"  aloud connected to the practice of of skipping the Litany for the Catechumens?  It seems that if one is done, that other is done.  Or is this just coincidence?

I've seen the first thing but never heard of the second one outside of this forum.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2011, 04:20:40 PM »

Is the practice of saying  the "Silent Prayers"  aloud connected to the practice of of skipping the Litany for the Catechumens?  It seems that if one is done, that other is done.  Or is this just coincidence?

I've seen the first thing but never heard of the second one outside of this forum.

The Litany for the Catechumens is skipped, where I live, in the local Antiochian parish and the Greek one. The local OCA parish still prays that litany.

Salaam leekum!
Logged

Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2011, 04:24:45 PM »

I have what may be an  unrelated question or it may have been asked somewhere else, but I'll ask it here.

Is the practice of saying  the "Silent Prayers"  aloud connected to the practice of of skipping the Litany for the Catechumens?  It seems that if one is done, that other is done.  Or is this just coincidence?

My church has both read aloud. The only thing we skip is the dsimissal of the catechumens (for which I was grateful during my catechumenate).
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2011, 04:26:36 PM »

This explains more about the removal of the Litany of the Catechumens:

Following the 1838 reform, the Greeks (except the Athonite monks who kept the old order) replaced Psalms 102/103 (“Bless the Lord, O my soul”) and 145/146 (“Praise the Lord, O my soul”) as well as the Beatitudes, which follow, by antiphons, i.e. brief appeals to the Theotokos or to Christ, Who is risen and is praised in His saints. The Russians continue to sing, each Sunday, the two noted psalms and the Beatitudes. They are replaced by antiphons only at great feasts or on weekdays. The dropping of the psalms and the Beatitudes has the advantage (if it can actually be considered the advantage) of shortening the Divine Liturgy. However, it pays to regretfully note that the Liturgy of the Catechumens thus loses its didactic and Biblical character, both Old and New Testamentary, which must be a part of it. The same can be said about the 1838 reform’s deletion of the prayers for the catechumens. It becomes unclear why the first part of the Liturgy continues to be called “Liturgy of the Catechumens.” We will note that the Athonite Greek monks continue to pray for the catechumens during Liturgy throughout the whole year.

Emphasis mine.

Source: http://preachersinstitute.com/2011/06/25/some-differences-between-greek-and-russian-divine-services-and-their-significance/

« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 04:27:30 PM by zekarja » Logged

Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2011, 10:30:28 PM »

We always pray the litany of the catechumens, regardless of how the silent prayers are read. This includes the dismissal. However, the dismissal isn't actually enforced. Catechumens return to their spot in the congregation upon the dismissal.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2011, 10:37:22 PM »

Just one more voice in the chorus, but ...

The Greeks generally do not pray the litany of the catachumens but near-universally pray the epiklesis silently. I don't believe there is any relationship between the two practices.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Jonathan Gress
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,068


« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2011, 05:53:58 AM »

I didn't know that omitting the litany of catechumens began in the 19th century. St Markella's follows the Violakis typicon, but we usually keep the litanies between the gospel and the great entrance. This may be because the church's founder Petros was an Athonite monk.
Logged
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2011, 10:21:34 AM »

I didn't know that omitting the litany of catechumens began in the 19th century. St Markella's follows the Violakis typicon, but we usually keep the litanies between the gospel and the great entrance. This may be because the church's founder Petros was an Athonite monk.

In reality these things were being done much earlier in parish settings. It was codified in the 1800's as being acceptable.
Logged

Joseph
Jonathan Gress
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,068


« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2011, 10:56:18 AM »

I didn't know that omitting the litany of catechumens began in the 19th century. St Markella's follows the Violakis typicon, but we usually keep the litanies between the gospel and the great entrance. This may be because the church's founder Petros was an Athonite monk.

In reality these things were being done much earlier in parish settings. It was codified in the 1800's as being acceptable.

That makes sense, and this is no doubt true for the revisions by Violakis as well.
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,691



« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2011, 12:13:47 PM »

(one note, I noticed in Greece that everyone bowed at the waist, or at least their heads, and remained dead silent during the Anaphora/Epiclesis, I would love for this to spread)

This doesn't happen in the States??

I haven't been to Greek Churches, but I don't see this in the OCA parishes I've attended.

In our OCA parish, the congregation fully participates in the Divine Liturgy, to include the anaphora and epiklesis, which are said/chanted aloud. This includes (a) singing the amens with the choir and saying the amens with the deacon, and (b) crossing oneself and then bowing deeply so that the right hand touches the ground after each amen. Some folks (like me) bow down and stay that way throughout the epiklesis, while one person prostrates himself. Like Paisius said above, variations are not so bad in this instance. However, since I am now used to full congregational participation, I think it would be hard for me to go back to the passive mode.

PS: By full participation, I mean that the people sing along with the Choir for all the hymns and responses; respond the the priest's "Forgive me brothers and sisters" with "As God forgives, so I forgive;" respond to the priest's "Christ is in our midst" with "He is and ever shall be;" and respond to the priest's "May the Lord God remember all of you in His kingdom, now and forever and to the ages of ages" with "Your priesthood may the Lord God remember in His kingdom now and forever and unto ages of ages."
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,063



« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2011, 06:47:54 PM »

in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me"

The practice you are arguing against does emphasize the liturgy as being about "us" as it has the entire congregation involved and follows the same pattern of prayer as the rest of the liturgy - the priest says the prayer and then the people give their "amen" making that prayer a unified work of the whole people of God (literally what "liturgy" means) gathered together as the Church.

In that case let's rip down the icon screen and let everyone come up and hold hands and chant all the prayers with the priest while holding hands around the altar table.  It gets confused, the priest prays the epiclesis, the deacon responds amen and says his parts (master bless the holy..) and the LAITY sing the Tebe Pojem/We praise thee.  Three different things going on at once, hmm, everyone doing their part, that is liturgy my friend.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 06:48:13 PM by username! » Logged

Tags:
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.083 seconds with 43 queries.