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Author Topic: Silent Prayers, Anaphora, Epiclesis  (Read 3342 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 26, 2011, 04:32:26 PM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2011, 04:36:10 PM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 

I prefer to hear the silent prayers myself. Smiley

As-Salamu alaykum!
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2011, 04:44:39 PM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 

It's evolution, baby.
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 05:12:45 PM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 

I prefer to hear the silent prayers myself. Smiley

As-Salamu alaykum!

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces.  But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 05:15:03 PM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 

It's evolution, baby.
American evolution.  I'm tired of seeing people sneer pysanky but praise the jesse tree, I'm tired of innovation.  The next thing we'll see if girl altarboys, guitars and everyone holding hands around the "table of sacrifice" and liturgical dancing... all in the name of "they did it that way in the early church."
Want to live that route I'm sure you can find a slew of churches under one column in the yellow pages that will let you fairy dance around the altar while the priest raises the cookie Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2011, 05:44:59 PM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 

It's evolution, baby.

Is that anything like development?
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2011, 11:06:02 PM »

(from the other thread)
The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!!
So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces.  But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.


As far as I'm aware, the prayers were originally read out loud. They began to be read silently to speed up the service. So the trend is really restoring the original practice.

From Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev:
Quote
The active participation of lay people in the Liturgy presupposes the possibility of their responding to the exclamations of the priest and hearing the so-called “silent” prayers. In contemporary church practice these prayers, as a rule, are read by the priest silently, which creates an additional barrier between the priest and his flock. More importantly, this habit deprives the faithful since the main point of the Liturgy passes them by. I have heard many arguments in favour of the practice of silent prayers, but none has seemed convincing to me. The so-called “silent” prayers were originally read aloud by the celebrating clergy. I think that in our time the faithful should have the opportunity to hear these prayers in their entirety, not only their concluding subordinate clauses (these signify that the prayers have been read but do not give the least notion of their content: “That being always guarded by Thy might”, “Singing the triumphant hymn, crying…”, “Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto Thee…”). At least the prayer of the anaphora, which summarizes the essence of the Liturgy, should be read aloud.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx

There are just some things that ought to be restored. Personally, it includes not just the "silent prayers", but also the Kiss of Peace as well. In addition to the parishioners saying "Amen" at the end of each petition during the Epiclesis.
(one note, I noticed in Greece that everyone bowed at the waist, or at least their heads, and remained dead silent during the Anaphora/Epiclesis, I would love for this to spread)

Quote
There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. - St. Justin Martyr, Ch. 65 "First Apology"
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxv.html
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 11:39:53 PM »

(one note, I noticed in Greece that everyone bowed at the waist, or at least their heads, and remained dead silent during the Anaphora/Epiclesis, I would love for this to spread)

This doesn't happen in the States??
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 11:40:40 PM »

(one note, I noticed in Greece that everyone bowed at the waist, or at least their heads, and remained dead silent during the Anaphora/Epiclesis, I would love for this to spread)

This doesn't happen in the States??

I haven't been to Greek Churches, but I don't see this in the OCA parishes I've attended.
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2011, 11:45:13 PM »

(one note, I noticed in Greece that everyone bowed at the waist, or at least their heads, and remained dead silent during the Anaphora/Epiclesis, I would love for this to spread)

This doesn't happen in the States??

I haven't been to Greek Churches, but I don't see this in the OCA parishes I've attended.

Interesting. If it were up to me everyone would prostrate during the anaphora, even on Sundays (gasp).

On topic: I am personally not averse to silent prayers, but I think making too much silent is certainly a liturgical abuse.
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 02:21:15 AM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 

I prefer to hear the silent prayers myself. Smiley

As-Salamu alaykum!

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces.  But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.
Hate to break it to you, but those sorts of minor changes to the liturgy have been going on for as long as there has been a liturgy. If you want to see the liturgy done exactly as it was by St. John Chrysostom, I suggest a time machine, because you aren't going to find it in any church, Orthodox or otherwise.
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2011, 02:28:19 AM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 

I prefer to hear the silent prayers myself. Smiley

As-Salamu alaykum!

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces.  But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.
Hate to break it to you, but those sorts of minor changes to the liturgy have been going on for as long as there has been a liturgy. If you want to see the liturgy done exactly as it was by St. John Chrysostom, I suggest a time machine, because you aren't going to find it in any church, Orthodox or otherwise.

That's a good point. At the same time, it can also be leveled at a lot of the folks in favor of the anaphora prayers being audible, since they argue that this is the ancient practice. Everybody is looking for time machines, just set for different centuries.
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2011, 05:59:44 AM »

Surely the best reason for the anaphora prayers remaining inaudible (unintelligible, to be more correct) is a practical one: It is quite distracting to hear the clash of voices of clergy and choir during the most sublime and sacred period of the Liturgy. Anaphora versus We praise You .... ,  This is greatly compounded by the modern tendency for priests to wear radio mikes - what was a distraction becomes a disgraceful cacophony.  Any sense of compunction and reverence is destroyed. Angry Angry Angry
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2011, 06:07:10 AM »

Surely the best reason for the anaphora prayers remaining inaudible (unintelligible, to be more correct) is a practical one: It is quite distracting to hear the clash of voices of clergy and choir during the most sublime and sacred period of the Liturgy. Anaphora versus We praise You .... ,  This is greatly compounded by the modern tendency for priests to wear radio mikes - what was a distraction becomes a disgraceful cacophony.  Any sense of compunction and reverence is destroyed. Angry Angry Angry

In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.
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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2011, 06:15:17 AM »

Surely the best reason for the anaphora prayers remaining inaudible (unintelligible, to be more correct) is a practical one: It is quite distracting to hear the clash of voices of clergy and choir during the most sublime and sacred period of the Liturgy. Anaphora versus We praise You .... ,  This is greatly compounded by the modern tendency for priests to wear radio mikes - what was a distraction becomes a disgraceful cacophony.  Any sense of compunction and reverence is destroyed. Angry Angry Angry

In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

Not the case in Greek or Russian churches.
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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2011, 06:18:18 AM »

Surely the best reason for the anaphora prayers remaining inaudible (unintelligible, to be more correct) is a practical one: It is quite distracting to hear the clash of voices of clergy and choir during the most sublime and sacred period of the Liturgy. Anaphora versus We praise You .... ,  This is greatly compounded by the modern tendency for priests to wear radio mikes - what was a distraction becomes a disgraceful cacophony.  Any sense of compunction and reverence is destroyed. Angry Angry Angry

In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

Not the case in Greek or Russian churches.

That would be distracting. Tongue
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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2011, 06:41:27 AM »

Surely the best reason for the anaphora prayers remaining inaudible (unintelligible, to be more correct) is a practical one: It is quite distracting to hear the clash of voices of clergy and choir during the most sublime and sacred period of the Liturgy. Anaphora versus We praise You .... ,  This is greatly compounded by the modern tendency for priests to wear radio mikes - what was a distraction becomes a disgraceful cacophony.  Any sense of compunction and reverence is destroyed. Angry Angry Angry

In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

Not the case in Greek or Russian churches.

That would be distracting. Tongue


It is quite nice if the "se ymnoumen" / "we praise you" is sung sufficiently quietly.

I don't think it's correct to delay the hymn until after the epiklesis as it actually completes the "ta se ek ton son" / "Your own of Your own" prayer. If seems to make more sense to delay the epiklesis until after the hymn if they are not to be prayed concurrently.
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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2011, 06:43:52 AM »

If seems to make more sense to delay the epiklesis until after the hymn if they are not to be prayed concurrently.

I agree. Smiley I listened to a priest rant in agreement with that before.
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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2011, 08:04:42 AM »

Surely the best reason for the anaphora prayers remaining inaudible (unintelligible, to be more correct) is a practical one: It is quite distracting to hear the clash of voices of clergy and choir during the most sublime and sacred period of the Liturgy. Anaphora versus We praise You .... ,  This is greatly compounded by the modern tendency for priests to wear radio mikes - what was a distraction becomes a disgraceful cacophony.  Any sense of compunction and reverence is destroyed. Angry Angry Angry
In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

Not the case in Greek or Russian churches. 

It just depends on which church you're attending.  I've been to quite a few Greek ones where they do indeed delay the chanting of "We praise you" until after the triple "Amen" of the Anaphora.
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« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2011, 02:44:28 PM »

I never said I want a time machine to take me back anywhere.   I just want the liturgy in my tradition (Slavic) to be performed per the sluzhebnik/Служебникъ.  Looking at the OCA, ROCOR, Ukrainian, ACROD, Serbian Служебникъ it doesn't call for the silent priest prayers/epiclesis to be read aloud.  Sorry, I'm not someone that was welcomed into the family and then came into someone else's house and immediately told everyone how to be. 
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« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2011, 02:50:49 PM »

Sorry, I'm not someone that was welcomed into the family and then came into someone else's house and immediately told everyone how to be.  

I'm not sure what you are saying.
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« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2011, 03:21:04 PM »

Can't agree.  Hearing "Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here spread forth" was one of 3 related events in my life that reinvigorated my baptism at the age of 17 years old.  Also, the mystically read prayers are too very beautiful to be said silently, in my opinion. Thank God each of the 3 presiding priests who have served my parish over the past 41+ years conduct so the Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2011, 04:11:01 PM »

I have yet to see any priest  be that exacting with the rubrics. Keep in mind that we have only had standardized liturgical texts and rubrics for a couple centuries. To become dogmatic over them ignores liturgical history and, I think, the spirit of liturgy in the first place.
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« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2011, 10:18:21 PM »

I never said I want a time machine to take me back anywhere.   I just want the liturgy in my tradition (Slavic) to be performed per the sluzhebnik/Служебникъ.  Looking at the OCA, ROCOR, Ukrainian, ACROD, Serbian Служебникъ it doesn't call for the silent priest prayers/epiclesis to be read aloud.  Sorry, I'm not someone that was welcomed into the family and then came into someone else's house and immediately told everyone how to be. 

Well, it isn't just converts that are calling for this, as I posed above, even Metropolitan Hilarion, who in my opinion, will be the next Patriarch, has even called for it, or at least supported it.
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« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2011, 10:22:07 PM »

I never said I want a time machine to take me back anywhere.   I just want the liturgy in my tradition (Slavic) to be performed per the sluzhebnik/Служебникъ.  Looking at the OCA, ROCOR, Ukrainian, ACROD, Serbian Служебникъ it doesn't call for the silent priest prayers/epiclesis to be read aloud.  Sorry, I'm not someone that was welcomed into the family and then came into someone else's house and immediately told everyone how to be. 

Well, it isn't just converts that are calling for this, as I posed above, even Metropolitan Hilarion, who in my opinion, will be the next Patriarch, has even called for it, or at least supported it.

Patriarch of where?  What Metropolitan Hilarion?
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« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2011, 10:35:45 PM »

Tangential, but please keep in mind the impetus for the majority of whacky, liturgical changes (by Orthodox standards) comes from the cradle-born, not converts.

It is not the converts who put the organs into the Greek churches.
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« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2011, 10:39:13 PM »

Tangential, but please keep in mind the impetus for the majority of whacky, liturgical changes (by Orthodox standards) comes from the cradle-born, not converts.

It is not the converts who put the organs into the Greek churches.

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« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2011, 10:47:25 PM »

I never said I want a time machine to take me back anywhere.   I just want the liturgy in my tradition (Slavic) to be performed per the sluzhebnik/Служебникъ.  Looking at the OCA, ROCOR, Ukrainian, ACROD, Serbian Служебникъ it doesn't call for the silent priest prayers/epiclesis to be read aloud.  Sorry, I'm not someone that was welcomed into the family and then came into someone else's house and immediately told everyone how to be.  

Well, it isn't just converts that are calling for this, as I posed above, even Metropolitan Hilarion, who in my opinion, will be the next Patriarch, has even called for it, or at least supported it.

Patriarch of where?  What Metropolitan Hilarion?


I'll repost it:

Quote
The active participation of lay people in the Liturgy presupposes the possibility of their responding to the exclamations of the priest and hearing the so-called “silent” prayers. In contemporary church practice these prayers, as a rule, are read by the priest silently, which creates an additional barrier between the priest and his flock. More importantly, this habit deprives the faithful since the main point of the Liturgy passes them by. I have heard many arguments in favour of the practice of silent prayers, but none has seemed convincing to me. The so-called “silent” prayers were originally read aloud by the celebrating clergy. I think that in our time the faithful should have the opportunity to hear these prayers in their entirety, not only their concluding subordinate clauses (these signify that the prayers have been read but do not give the least notion of their content: “That being always guarded by Thy might”, “Singing the triumphant hymn, crying…”, “Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto Thee…”). At least the prayer of the anaphora, which summarizes the essence of the Liturgy, should be read aloud.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx

It is Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, who currently holds the position that the now-Patriarch Kirill held before the repose of Patriarch Alexis. Due to his amount of accomplishments, position, writing, composing, etc... I could easily see him making Patriarch after +Kirill. (and his theology/church relations is very Orthodox as well!)
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« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2011, 10:53:00 PM »

thanks for reposting, I always don't have time to read every post.  When ya get older your free time becomes less and less and so forth.
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« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2011, 12:08:44 PM »


In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

In my parish, "We Praise you" comes before the audible Epiclesis. 

The only exception is that when Bishop BASIL come to serve the Hierarchical Liturgy, during "We Praise You..." he said the Epiclesis and then immediately prostrated.  People we horrified that they somehow were "left out" of this. 
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« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2011, 12:44:04 PM »


In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

In my parish, "We Praise you" comes before the audible Epiclesis.  

The only exception is that when Bishop BASIL come to serve the Hierarchical Liturgy, during "We Praise You..." he said the Epiclesis and then immediately prostrated.  People we horrified that they somehow were "left out" of this.  

Forgive me, I should have said "at my Antiochian parish." Smiley
At my parish we had a visiting older priest do it as your parish does. He told us that that we shouldn't be changing the order of things when having an audible Epiclesis.
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« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2011, 10:33:45 PM »

On Sundays my priest usually reads the silent prayers aloud. The people bow at the waist at "take, eat...", "drink of it all of you...", "make this bread...", " and that which is in this cup..." and "changing them by the Holy Spirit." The last three are ended by "Amen" (the last one a triple "Amen") and those in the altar prostrate after the last of the triple "Amen"s. The last three are occuring at the same time as "We Praise Thee" is sung by the choir, which they start immediately after "Thine Own of Thine Own..."

On weekday Liturgies, however, our priest is more likely to say the prayers silently.
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« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2011, 06:53:23 AM »

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.
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« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2011, 06:54:16 AM »

I never said I want a time machine to take me back anywhere.   I just want the liturgy in my tradition (Slavic) to be performed per the sluzhebnik/Служебникъ.  Looking at the OCA, ROCOR, Ukrainian, ACROD, Serbian Служебникъ it doesn't call for the silent priest prayers/epiclesis to be read aloud.  Sorry, I'm not someone that was welcomed into the family and then came into someone else's house and immediately told everyone how to be.  

Well, it isn't just converts that are calling for this, as I posed above, even Metropolitan Hilarion, who in my opinion, will be the next Patriarch, has even called for it, or at least supported it.

Patriarch of where?  What Metropolitan Hilarion?


I'll repost it:

Quote
The active participation of lay people in the Liturgy presupposes the possibility of their responding to the exclamations of the priest and hearing the so-called “silent” prayers. In contemporary church practice these prayers, as a rule, are read by the priest silently, which creates an additional barrier between the priest and his flock. More importantly, this habit deprives the faithful since the main point of the Liturgy passes them by. I have heard many arguments in favour of the practice of silent prayers, but none has seemed convincing to me. The so-called “silent” prayers were originally read aloud by the celebrating clergy. I think that in our time the faithful should have the opportunity to hear these prayers in their entirety, not only their concluding subordinate clauses (these signify that the prayers have been read but do not give the least notion of their content: “That being always guarded by Thy might”, “Singing the triumphant hymn, crying…”, “Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto Thee…”). At least the prayer of the anaphora, which summarizes the essence of the Liturgy, should be read aloud.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx

It is Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, who currently holds the position that the now-Patriarch Kirill held before the repose of Patriarch Alexis. Due to his amount of accomplishments, position, writing, composing, etc... I could easily see him making Patriarch after +Kirill. (and his theology/church relations is very Orthodox as well!)
He's written 42 books in 12 languages, and has done 7 musical compositions, in addition to being the chairman of the Department of External Church Relations for the Russian Church.

Plus he's quite good-looking.
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« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2011, 08:27:18 AM »

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.
Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?
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« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2011, 08:32:32 AM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 

I prefer to hear the silent prayers myself. Smiley

As-Salamu alaykum!

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces.  But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.
If it makes you happier, the Emperor Justinian outlawed the practice of silent prayers, which originated among the Nestorians, btw.
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« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2011, 08:33:30 AM »

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.
Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.
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« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2011, 08:39:50 AM »

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.
Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.
So St. Basil is burning in hell for revising the DL of St. James the Brother of God, and St. John Chrysostom joined him there for revising St. Basil's DL.  And the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council are burning in hell for their intentional efforts at reforming the calculations of Paschalion.
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« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2011, 08:51:47 AM »

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.
Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.
So St. Basil is burning in hell for revising the DL of St. James the Brother of God, and St. John Chrysostom joined him there for revising St. Basil's DL.  And the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council are burning in hell for their intentional efforts at reforming the calculations of Paschalion.

You said it.
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« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2011, 11:18:55 AM »

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.
Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.
So St. Basil is burning in hell for revising the DL of St. James the Brother of God, and St. John Chrysostom joined him there for revising St. Basil's DL.  And the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council are burning in hell for their intentional efforts at reforming the calculations of Paschalion.

You said it.

I surely hope you don't expect to be taken seriously.
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« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2011, 11:19:55 AM »

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.
Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.
So St. Basil is burning in hell for revising the DL of St. James the Brother of God, and St. John Chrysostom joined him there for revising St. Basil's DL.  And the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council are burning in hell for their intentional efforts at reforming the calculations of Paschalion.

You said it.

I surely hope you don't expect to be taken seriously.

Why? Are you taking me seriously?
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« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2011, 11:28:21 AM »

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.
Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.
So St. Basil is burning in hell for revising the DL of St. James the Brother of God, and St. John Chrysostom joined him there for revising St. Basil's DL.  And the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council are burning in hell for their intentional efforts at reforming the calculations of Paschalion.

You said it.

I surely hope you don't expect to be taken seriously.

Why? Are you taking me seriously?

sarcasm is really hard to pick up on the internet without accompanying smileys or indicators Wink
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« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2011, 11:33:20 AM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 

I prefer to hear the silent prayers myself. Smiley

As-Salamu alaykum!

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces.  But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.
If it makes you happier, the Emperor Justinian outlawed the practice of silent prayers, which originated among the Nestorians, btw.

So exactly what chariot racing club would I then be for in Constantinople at that time?  Ok, I guess then since the response to the Epeclesis is a deacon's prayer and the people are now performing diaconal duties I guess then Mary can incense the church while Peter or Johnny recite the litanies.  Why not let Francis or Sue celebrate the proskomedia with the priest while we are at it?  It's ok if we do, since according to ANorth American protestant ideals, if it feels good and makes the individual happy who cares about the scred order orf things?  I guess its ok to invent things and reassign duties assigned to ordained clergy to the laiyity
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« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2011, 11:58:54 AM »

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.
Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.
So St. Basil is burning in hell for revising the DL of St. James the Brother of God, and St. John Chrysostom joined him there for revising St. Basil's DL.  And the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council are burning in hell for their intentional efforts at reforming the calculations of Paschalion.

You said it.

I surely hope you don't expect to be taken seriously.

Why? Are you taking me seriously?

sarcasm is really hard to pick up on the internet without accompanying smileys or indicators Wink

I know. I admit I was partly amused by the prospect of winding some people up. But I'll stop now. Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2011, 01:36:56 PM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 

I prefer to hear the silent prayers myself. Smiley

As-Salamu alaykum!

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces.  But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.
If it makes you happier, the Emperor Justinian outlawed the practice of silent prayers, which originated among the Nestorians, btw.

So exactly what chariot racing club would I then be for in Constantinople at that time?  Ok, I guess then since the response to the Epeclesis is a deacon's prayer
According to what rubrics?

and the people are now performing diaconal duties I guess then Mary can incense the church while Peter or Johnny recite the litanies.
Why were the prayers assigned to the deacon?

Why not let Francis or Sue celebrate the proskomedia with the priest while we are at it?  It's ok if we do, since according to ANorth American protestant ideals, if it feels good and makes the individual happy who cares about the scred order orf things?
According to North American Protestant ideals? What North American Protestant ideals? I ask this because your words sound like a tactic I've seen used quite a lot. If you don't like something, smear it by calling it Protestant, even if you can't identify what's so Protestant about it.

I guess its ok to invent things and reassign duties assigned to ordained clergy to the laiyity
And it's equally OK to be a slave to the rubrics? Like everything in the Church, the rubrics were created for us, not us for the rubrics.
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« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2011, 02:34:49 PM »

According to North American Protestant ideals?


The Protestant ideals of Metropolitan Hilarion apparently.  Tongue



That being said I've never understood why we devote entire threads to issues like this. Why do we feel the need to control the way other people do things? If the Greeks want to have pews and organs let them have pews and organs. If the Russians don't want those things they don't have to have them. If a priest or bishop wants some or all of the prayers read aloud that is up to them. If you don't like one thing or another then that is your problem not theirs, and you need to deal with it.

There are countless variations in rites, prayers, customs, traditions and practices within Orthodoxy today and even more so over the centuries. It spans across all nations throughout the history of the Church. It is a wonderful testimony to our freedom in Christ and our living faith. It should be celebrated, not derided.
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« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2011, 02:52:14 PM »

The biggest mishap I've seen?  The audible anaphora/epeclesis and priests praying the silent prayers aloud!!! 

I prefer to hear the silent prayers myself. Smiley

As-Salamu alaykum!

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces.  But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.
If it makes you happier, the Emperor Justinian outlawed the practice of silent prayers, which originated among the Nestorians, btw.

So exactly what chariot racing club would I then be for in Constantinople at that time?  Ok, I guess then since the response to the Epeclesis is a deacon's prayer and the people are now performing diaconal duties I guess then Mary can incense the church while Peter or Johnny recite the litanies.  Why not let Francis or Sue celebrate the proskomedia with the priest while we are at it?  It's ok if we do, since according to ANorth American protestant ideals, if it feels good and makes the individual happy who cares about the scred order orf things?  I guess its ok to invent things and reassign duties assigned to ordained clergy to the laiyity
Sorry, the DL didn't originate in turn of the previous century Pennsylvania among Galician immigrants.

Setting aside that the deacon is nothing more in essence than a glorified layman, and that back in the old country-i.e. Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem, on whose earth Christ walked-the congregation says their "Amen" to the Anamnesis and the Epiclesis, what made you think that Justinian was a North American Protestant?
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« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2011, 03:04:10 PM »

in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me"

The practice you are arguing against does emphasize the liturgy as being about "us" as it has the entire congregation involved and follows the same pattern of prayer as the rest of the liturgy - the priest says the prayer and then the people give their "amen" making that prayer a unified work of the whole people of God (literally what "liturgy" means) gathered together as the Church.
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« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2011, 03:55:01 PM »

I have what may be an  unrelated question or it may have been asked somewhere else, but I'll ask it here.

Is the practice of saying  the "Silent Prayers"  aloud connected to the practice of of skipping the Litany for the Catechumens?  It seems that if one is done, that other is done.  Or is this just coincidence?
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« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2011, 04:12:36 PM »

Is the practice of saying  the "Silent Prayers"  aloud connected to the practice of of skipping the Litany for the Catechumens?  It seems that if one is done, that other is done.  Or is this just coincidence?

In my opinion, it's coincidental.  ISTM that the Litany of the Catechumens (and the first Prayer of the Faithful) fell out of practice in some Liturgical traditions because there were not many adult catechumens for a long period of time.
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« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2011, 04:15:35 PM »

Is the practice of saying  the "Silent Prayers"  aloud connected to the practice of of skipping the Litany for the Catechumens?  It seems that if one is done, that other is done.  Or is this just coincidence?

I've seen the first thing but never heard of the second one outside of this forum.
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« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2011, 04:20:40 PM »

Is the practice of saying  the "Silent Prayers"  aloud connected to the practice of of skipping the Litany for the Catechumens?  It seems that if one is done, that other is done.  Or is this just coincidence?

I've seen the first thing but never heard of the second one outside of this forum.

The Litany for the Catechumens is skipped, where I live, in the local Antiochian parish and the Greek one. The local OCA parish still prays that litany.

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« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2011, 04:24:45 PM »

I have what may be an  unrelated question or it may have been asked somewhere else, but I'll ask it here.

Is the practice of saying  the "Silent Prayers"  aloud connected to the practice of of skipping the Litany for the Catechumens?  It seems that if one is done, that other is done.  Or is this just coincidence?

My church has both read aloud. The only thing we skip is the dsimissal of the catechumens (for which I was grateful during my catechumenate).
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« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2011, 04:26:36 PM »

This explains more about the removal of the Litany of the Catechumens:

Following the 1838 reform, the Greeks (except the Athonite monks who kept the old order) replaced Psalms 102/103 (“Bless the Lord, O my soul”) and 145/146 (“Praise the Lord, O my soul”) as well as the Beatitudes, which follow, by antiphons, i.e. brief appeals to the Theotokos or to Christ, Who is risen and is praised in His saints. The Russians continue to sing, each Sunday, the two noted psalms and the Beatitudes. They are replaced by antiphons only at great feasts or on weekdays. The dropping of the psalms and the Beatitudes has the advantage (if it can actually be considered the advantage) of shortening the Divine Liturgy. However, it pays to regretfully note that the Liturgy of the Catechumens thus loses its didactic and Biblical character, both Old and New Testamentary, which must be a part of it. The same can be said about the 1838 reform’s deletion of the prayers for the catechumens. It becomes unclear why the first part of the Liturgy continues to be called “Liturgy of the Catechumens.” We will note that the Athonite Greek monks continue to pray for the catechumens during Liturgy throughout the whole year.

Emphasis mine.

Source: http://preachersinstitute.com/2011/06/25/some-differences-between-greek-and-russian-divine-services-and-their-significance/

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« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2011, 10:30:28 PM »

We always pray the litany of the catechumens, regardless of how the silent prayers are read. This includes the dismissal. However, the dismissal isn't actually enforced. Catechumens return to their spot in the congregation upon the dismissal.
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« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2011, 10:37:22 PM »

Just one more voice in the chorus, but ...

The Greeks generally do not pray the litany of the catachumens but near-universally pray the epiklesis silently. I don't believe there is any relationship between the two practices.
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« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2011, 05:53:58 AM »

I didn't know that omitting the litany of catechumens began in the 19th century. St Markella's follows the Violakis typicon, but we usually keep the litanies between the gospel and the great entrance. This may be because the church's founder Petros was an Athonite monk.
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« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2011, 10:21:34 AM »

I didn't know that omitting the litany of catechumens began in the 19th century. St Markella's follows the Violakis typicon, but we usually keep the litanies between the gospel and the great entrance. This may be because the church's founder Petros was an Athonite monk.

In reality these things were being done much earlier in parish settings. It was codified in the 1800's as being acceptable.
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« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2011, 10:56:18 AM »

I didn't know that omitting the litany of catechumens began in the 19th century. St Markella's follows the Violakis typicon, but we usually keep the litanies between the gospel and the great entrance. This may be because the church's founder Petros was an Athonite monk.

In reality these things were being done much earlier in parish settings. It was codified in the 1800's as being acceptable.

That makes sense, and this is no doubt true for the revisions by Violakis as well.
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« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2011, 12:13:47 PM »

(one note, I noticed in Greece that everyone bowed at the waist, or at least their heads, and remained dead silent during the Anaphora/Epiclesis, I would love for this to spread)

This doesn't happen in the States??

I haven't been to Greek Churches, but I don't see this in the OCA parishes I've attended.

In our OCA parish, the congregation fully participates in the Divine Liturgy, to include the anaphora and epiklesis, which are said/chanted aloud. This includes (a) singing the amens with the choir and saying the amens with the deacon, and (b) crossing oneself and then bowing deeply so that the right hand touches the ground after each amen. Some folks (like me) bow down and stay that way throughout the epiklesis, while one person prostrates himself. Like Paisius said above, variations are not so bad in this instance. However, since I am now used to full congregational participation, I think it would be hard for me to go back to the passive mode.

PS: By full participation, I mean that the people sing along with the Choir for all the hymns and responses; respond the the priest's "Forgive me brothers and sisters" with "As God forgives, so I forgive;" respond to the priest's "Christ is in our midst" with "He is and ever shall be;" and respond to the priest's "May the Lord God remember all of you in His kingdom, now and forever and to the ages of ages" with "Your priesthood may the Lord God remember in His kingdom now and forever and unto ages of ages."
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« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2011, 06:47:54 PM »

in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me"

The practice you are arguing against does emphasize the liturgy as being about "us" as it has the entire congregation involved and follows the same pattern of prayer as the rest of the liturgy - the priest says the prayer and then the people give their "amen" making that prayer a unified work of the whole people of God (literally what "liturgy" means) gathered together as the Church.

In that case let's rip down the icon screen and let everyone come up and hold hands and chant all the prayers with the priest while holding hands around the altar table.  It gets confused, the priest prays the epiclesis, the deacon responds amen and says his parts (master bless the holy..) and the LAITY sing the Tebe Pojem/We praise thee.  Three different things going on at once, hmm, everyone doing their part, that is liturgy my friend.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 06:48:13 PM by username! » Logged

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