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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and the Sabbath  (Read 2350 times) Average Rating: 0
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Volnutt
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« on: July 26, 2011, 09:35:04 PM »

I know that the Orthodox reject the common RC and Protestant view that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath, but I'm a bit unclear as to how Saturday is supposed to be observed. What are the customs, etc. other than fasting after sundown for Communion?
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Xenia1918
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2011, 10:07:57 PM »

I know that the Orthodox reject the common RC and Protestant view that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath, but I'm a bit unclear as to how Saturday is supposed to be observed. What are the customs, etc. other than fasting after sundown for Communion?

I have read that you pray for the dead and do not fast. But Saturday is seen as the Sabbath, even though its not observed as Orthodox Jews would. Incidentally this is one of the things that led me to believe that the Orthodox Church is the true church...because I knew the first Christians were Jewish and kept both Saturday and Sunday (Saturday as the Sabbath and Sunday as the Lord's Day).
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2011, 11:19:00 PM »

During lenten periods, the fast is reduced on Saturdays and Sundays.

And fasting for the Eucharist typically begins at midnight, not sundown. In earlier times it may have been sundown (logical because the day begins at sundown), but I've never heard that requirement today.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 11:19:34 PM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 11:37:43 PM »

Saturday is not observed in the manner of the Law.
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 11:58:56 PM »

During lenten periods, the fast is reduced on Saturdays and Sundays.

And fasting for the Eucharist typically begins at midnight, not sundown. In earlier times it may have been sundown (logical because the day begins at sundown), but I've never heard that requirement today.
Ok. Thanks.
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Xenia1918
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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2011, 12:09:56 AM »

Saturday is not observed in the manner of the Law.

I pointed that out in one of my posts.
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 12:13:50 AM »

The Apostles transferred the dignity of the Sabbath to Sunday. So no diff with other Christians there. Not sure where your info came from. Mine is from the Synaxarion excerpted in the Nasser service book for Holy Saturday or Pascha-memory rusty
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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2011, 12:27:22 AM »

The Apostles transferred the dignity of the Sabbath to Sunday.

But the Lord's Day is very different from the Sabbath in its meaning.

Not sure where your info came from. Mine is from the Synaxarion excerpted in the Nasser service book for Holy Saturday or Pascha-memory rusty

Could you look for it to try to find a reference?
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2011, 12:46:17 AM »

The Apostles transferred the dignity of the Sabbath to Sunday. So no diff with other Christians there. Not sure where your info came from. Mine is from the Synaxarion excerpted in the Nasser service book for Holy Saturday or Pascha-memory rusty
I'll need to see this in ink, my info is from Fr. Thomas Hopko and a good many threads here.
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 12:53:26 AM »

The Apostles transferred the dignity of the Sabbath to Sunday. So no diff with other Christians there. Not sure where your info came from. Mine is from the Synaxarion excerpted in the Nasser service book for Holy Saturday or Pascha-memory rusty
I'll need to see this in ink, my info is from Fr. Thomas Hopko and a good many threads here.

?

I would like to know where Fr. Thomas Hopko says that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath.

He clearly teaches that Saturday is the Sabbath (even Christ "rested" on this day) and Sunday is the eight day of the week "anticipating" the fullness of the eschaton.

I've listened to hundreds of hours of his seminars and podcasts and learned from his students and I have never heard any mention that Sunday is the Sabbath. Because Fr. Thom does speak quite a lot, he does misspeak at times though. There have been some howlers.

 
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 12:56:20 AM »

The Apostles transferred the dignity of the Sabbath to Sunday. So no diff with other Christians there. Not sure where your info came from. Mine is from the Synaxarion excerpted in the Nasser service book for Holy Saturday or Pascha-memory rusty
I'll need to see this in ink, my info is from Fr. Thomas Hopko and a good many threads here.

?

I would like to know where Fr. Thomas Hopko says that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath.

He clearly teaches that Saturday is the Sabbath (even Christ "rested" on this day) and Sunday is the eight day of the week "anticipating" the fullness of the eschaton.

I've listened to hundreds of hours of his seminars and podcasts and learned from his students and I have never heard any mention that Sunday is the Sabbath. Because Fr. Thom does speak quite a lot, he does misspeak at times though. There have been some howlers.

 

You seem confused here.

Volnutt said that the Orthodox do not accept the RC/Protestant teaching that Sunday is the Sabbath.

Then Shanghaiski contradicted him and said that the dignity of the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday.

Then Volnutt objected and stated that his understanding came from Thomas Hopko.

Which would seem to mean that Hopko teaches that Saturday is the Sabbath.
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Volnutt
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2011, 12:58:16 AM »

DVE's got it.
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2011, 01:03:49 AM »

The Apostles transferred the dignity of the Sabbath to Sunday. So no diff with other Christians there. Not sure where your info came from. Mine is from the Synaxarion excerpted in the Nasser service book for Holy Saturday or Pascha-memory rusty
I'll need to see this in ink, my info is from Fr. Thomas Hopko and a good many threads here.

?

I would like to know where Fr. Thomas Hopko says that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath.

He clearly teaches that Saturday is the Sabbath (even Christ "rested" on this day) and Sunday is the eight day of the week "anticipating" the fullness of the eschaton.

I've listened to hundreds of hours of his seminars and podcasts and learned from his students and I have never heard any mention that Sunday is the Sabbath. Because Fr. Thom does speak quite a lot, he does misspeak at times though. There have been some howlers.

 

You seem confused here.

Evidently,  I am.

EDIT: I AM on drugs. //:=)
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2011, 01:06:26 AM »

As Ozzy said, "Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." Grin
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2011, 11:45:34 AM »

By "dignity of the Sabbath," understand things like rest from work, church service attendance, etc. I don't know where Fr. Hopko is going talking about Saturday as the Sabbath, as if it was not a work day. It is a work day. We don't do much special for Saturdays, except that traditionally it is a day for remembering the dead, since on that day, Christ descended into hades and raised the dead. On Sundays, Christians traditionally do not do work for money, unless they have to--then some will often give that money to the poor. Sunday is a day for church, for spiritual things, for visiting people in hospitals, for hospitality, a day for the Lord just as the Jewish Saturday Sabbath was in many ways.
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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2011, 11:59:21 AM »

The very first Orthodox friend I ever made was 20 years ago...she had converted to Orthodoxy in 1977 from having been an Anglican nun. She was the first one who told me that Saturday is still the Sabbath (though Orthodox Christians do not keep it as Jews do). She said Sunday is called "the eighth day".
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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2011, 02:04:01 PM »

By "dignity of the Sabbath," understand things like rest from work, church service attendance, etc. I don't know where Fr. Hopko is going talking about Saturday as the Sabbath, as if it was not a work day. It is a work day. We don't do much special for Saturdays, except that traditionally it is a day for remembering the dead, since on that day, Christ descended into hades and raised the dead. On Sundays, Christians traditionally do not do work for money, unless they have to--then some will often give that money to the poor. Sunday is a day for church, for spiritual things, for visiting people in hospitals, for hospitality, a day for the Lord just as the Jewish Saturday Sabbath was in many ways.

His point was basically yours. Correcting those who claim Saturday is not the Sabbath but Sunday is. He is quick to point out though Sunday does start on Saturday so to speak. Your words and that was the upshot. NBD.

I totally misunderstood a post more than once in the last couple of days.
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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2011, 02:19:29 PM »

The very first Orthodox friend I ever made was 20 years ago...she had converted to Orthodoxy in 1977 from having been an Anglican nun. She was the first one who told me that Saturday is still the Sabbath (though Orthodox Christians do not keep it as Jews do). She said Sunday is called "the eighth day".

But, what did she actually mean by this? This seems like a hollow point when Saturday is not treated differently than other days in significant ways, except for the allowance of oil and wine in fasting periods.
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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2011, 02:25:11 PM »

The very first Orthodox friend I ever made was 20 years ago...she had converted to Orthodoxy in 1977 from having been an Anglican nun. She was the first one who told me that Saturday is still the Sabbath (though Orthodox Christians do not keep it as Jews do). She said Sunday is called "the eighth day".

But, what did she actually mean by this? This seems like a hollow point when Saturday is not treated differently than other days in significant ways, except for the allowance of oil and wine in fasting periods.

I dunno what her point was, but in my Church I grew up in as a kid we "kept" the Sabbath on Sunday. No work in general (the women didn't cook anything). No shopping (dirt poor, so wouldn't have happened anyway). No secular entertainment. Etc.

Maybe she was just pointing out some Christians take Sunday and treat it like a Sabbath-lite.
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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2011, 05:35:03 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Officially the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church fully recognized the validity of both the Saturday and Sunday Sabbath, acknowledging both the Fathers tradition of moving the Sabbath to the Lord's Day and yet also the authority of the Scriptures which celebrate Friday/Saturday.  So traditionally in Ethiopia since our own internal Sabatarian controversy was resolved in the 15th century, we have Divine Liturgy on both days, and initially it was obligatory for laity to attend BOTH days, however as of since the Saturday service has become a bit more optional.

Quote
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote from: PoorFoolNicholas on April 17, 2011, 05:29:09 PM
Hello my Ethiopian/OO brothers! I read somewhere that the Ethiopian Churches observe Sabbath as well as honor Sunday as the day of Resurrection. Is there anything special that you do for the Sabbath? Is it observed as the Jews observe it?

Also on a totally unrelated note: Are there any Ethiopian Orthodox Churches in the States that have services in English?

In the Ethiopian Orthodox, this has been about as longstanding and thorny an issue as has been Christological theology!  Essentially (much as in say Spain) because of the extended history of political and military rivalry in East Africa and Arabian peninsula between Jews and Christians and Muslims (I'm talking since the 3rd century!!), specifically within the various stages of the Ethiopian empire(s).

The issue was most vociferously argued during the so-called Ewesatewos controversy during the time of Saint Ewestatewos (14th century) in Ethiopia.  The Church then broke into two factions, and those under the abbot St Ewestatewos observed a dual Sabbath, both on Saturday (as was the contemporary Ethiopian Jewish custom) and on Sunday.  The Saturday Sabatarians essentially argued two points, a kind of Old Testament revivalism similar to the experience of colonial American Christianity, and also a means of streamlining the continuous proselytizing of Ethiopian Jews and Muslims (who had been observing the Sabbath) as the Empire grew and absorbed large populations of these folks into the Christian sphere.  The Emperors Yekuno Amlak and Amde Tsion and rival Bishops around Saint Tekle Haimanot on the other hand, were strict observers of the Christian Sunday Sabbath.  These were essentially regional/cultural differences that had manifested themselves into political and ecclesiastical business.  Each regional clergy mutually excommunicated each other at different times and were then quite divided to varying degrees of ferocity.

The matters were by no means settled, and continued to be divisive in Ethiopia for centuries until Emperor Zara Yacob, as the Head of the Church, officially settled the matter through major concessions (including land grants) with pacified each faction into supporting a compromise, the Church recognized both Saturday and Sunday Sabbath as Canon law.

Still there were regional and localized variations after this time and the issue remained thorny up through the reign of Emperor Yohannes IV who also had the matter settled alongside settling the internal Christological debates in establishing formally the Ethiopian Church as the unified, pan-Ethiopian Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.

The way this manifests/affects the Church is as such:

For example, in relation to rules about the Sunday Sabbath.  There is no fasting (that is, complete abstaining from food, we still keep it vegan on weekends Smiley ) on Sabbath days, so there is no fasting on both Saturday and Sunday since Zara Yacob's time to this day.  At various times, this also affected things like business regulations with Saturday being days of complete rest as well as Sunday (though this has not been universal and has varied over the centuries).  Also, the Church celebrates the Divine Liturgy mandatory on Sabbath, so both Sunday and Saturday have traditionally been equally days to go to attend the Liturgy and receive the Eucharist.
The Saturday Sabatarians also helped to continue to influence of other Judaic aspects of Ethiopian Christianity including the musical instruments, sociocultural traits, architecture, dietary restrictions and even the taking off of shoes when entering a church building.  However, these can not necessarily be solely attributed to the influence of Judaism or even the Old Testament, because Ethiopia is an indigenous Semitic country, so many of these "Jewish" traits are actually pan-Semitic and so they are as much a coincidence as anything.  This is especially evident in customs like social organization, dietary habits, circumcision, and dress.  It used to a be a kind of chicken and egg question, however more recent anthropology, biology and archeology now suggests otherwise, and it is almost surely a fact that many of these Semitic traits may have even originated in Ethiopia long before Judaism ever even existed!

These "Jewish" (Semitic) traits are so thoroughly pan-Ethiopian that they can be found in rural and isolated populations who are "pagan/animist/traditionalists" and who have no historic or cultural relationship with neither Christian or Jewish (or even Muslim) Ethiopia.  Its actually quite intricate and complicated Wink



It also determines the Liturgical calendar and cycles of particular chants and prayers.

A bit about the Ethiopian Sabbath from a related thread I posted in..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2011, 06:38:16 PM »

The very first Orthodox friend I ever made was 20 years ago...she had converted to Orthodoxy in 1977 from having been an Anglican nun. She was the first one who told me that Saturday is still the Sabbath (though Orthodox Christians do not keep it as Jews do). She said Sunday is called "the eighth day".

This seems correct. It is on the "eighth day" - the First Day of the week we celebrate Christ's resurrection.
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