Author Topic: Living above the law  (Read 3709 times)

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Offline Poppy

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Living above the law
« on: July 26, 2011, 11:35:38 AM »
Quote
Go ABOVE the law. This is what Jesus meant about freedom, if you live above the law then you are Christ-like in that you fulfill the law and do more than is required. If you are asked to walk a mile - go two. If you are asked for your cloak - give your staff as well.

I got some emails from a lady that i was talking to about not being legalistic and the whole law thing. I didn't understand what she meant by this that i quoted, and so i emailed her but she must be on holiday because its been like three weeks!!!! So is it something that other people can explain a bit, i know you're not HER but you might get it more than i do. Thanks Popps

Offline GJason

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2011, 05:51:29 PM »
She means go 'above and beyond'.

Like if the Church wants you to volunteer for at least 1 function a month... don't just do 1/month every month because that's the bare minimum required of you. Do more; go above and beyond what is expected of you.

If you're only expected to do 1 - don't be hesitant to do 2 or more.

If the food drive expects your kids to bring at least two non-perishable food items... don't be scared to give them six cans and exceed the expectations.

With Christ, His expectation is that we do all we can (in every facet of our lives); MORE than we really have to; more than anyone expects.

"Merely to hear the word of God saves no one and is instead a condemnation. After hearing, one must do." - Blessed Theophylact

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2011, 12:08:38 PM »
This is gnostic.

To be "Christ like" is to be "Like God".

To make yourself like God, you are doing exactly what Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.

The Gnostic teaching is to become as God, or "Do what thy wilt".
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2011, 12:15:56 PM »
"Like" as in imitating Him, being conformed to His mind. He took on the form of servant, so must we.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2011, 02:08:14 PM »
Quote
Go ABOVE the law. This is what Jesus meant about freedom, if you live above the law then you are Christ-like in that you fulfill the law and do more than is required. If you are asked to walk a mile - go two. If you are asked for your cloak - give your staff as well.

I got some emails from a lady that i was talking to about not being legalistic and the whole law thing. I didn't understand what she meant by this that i quoted, and so i emailed her but she must be on holiday because its been like three weeks!!!! So is it something that other people can explain a bit, i know you're not HER but you might get it more than i do. Thanks Popps

Has anyone read Walter Brueggemann's (I am pretty sure it was his) exegesis on this piece of Scripture. Interesting. Don't know that I could track it down. But might be able to summarize, if no one else has an inkling when not working and feeling a little better.
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2011, 02:13:47 PM »
This is gnostic.

To be "Christ like" is to be "Like God".

To make yourself like God, you are doing exactly what Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.

The Gnostic teaching is to become as God, or "Do what thy wilt".

Oh please, Genesis 1 also says that we are in God's likeness. Does that make us all passive Gnostics?
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 09:54:50 PM »
This is gnostic.

To be "Christ like" is to be "Like God".

To make yourself like God, you are doing exactly what Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.

The Gnostic teaching is to become as God, or "Do what thy wilt".

How on earth? She said be Christ-LIKE. We are all living icons of Christ, as we bear His image within us. We strive each day to resemble Christ more in our words, thoughts, and actions. That isn't gnostic.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2011, 11:02:08 AM »
This is gnostic.

To be "Christ like" is to be "Like God".

To make yourself like God, you are doing exactly what Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.

The Gnostic teaching is to become as God, or "Do what thy wilt".

How on earth? She said be Christ-LIKE. We are all living icons of Christ, as we bear His image within us. We strive each day to resemble Christ more in our words, thoughts, and actions. That isn't gnostic.

There is a HUGE difference between
"Christ Like"
and
"In the likeness of Christ"
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2011, 11:07:46 AM »
There is a HUGE difference between
"Christ Like"
and
"In the likeness of Christ"

What is it?  ???

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2011, 11:19:24 AM »
There is a HUGE difference between
"Christ Like"
and
"In the likeness of Christ"

What is it?  ???

Four letters? ::)
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2011, 12:26:36 PM »
There is a HUGE difference between
"Christ Like"
and
"In the likeness of Christ"

What is it?  ???

Admit, this contest ain't as fun as mine.
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Offline sainthieu

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2011, 01:47:22 PM »
I got some emails from a lady that i was talking to about not being legalistic and the whole law thing. I didn't understand what she meant by this...

Poppy: It's the difference between a mere legalistic morality and genuine, sincere morality based in love.

The old Law of the Jews was defined in the Ten Commandments. If you contemplated doing something that was not obviously forbidden by the Commandments, you had to consult a rabbi for an evaluation, and he would determine the deed's morality. ('I know his ox and donkey are out of bounds, but what if I stole his lamb?') It made it possible for you to do someone else dirt while being, from a technical standpoint, blameless. It was a good system, but not perfect.

Christ brings humanity an entirely new revelation about morality and ethics that transcends--and replaces-- the old Law. It applies to how we think and feel, in addition to how we act. We are to act with kindness, love and empathy toward one another--not just see what we can get away with. If you always treat others as you wish to be treated yourself, you'll never hurt anyone again (the Golden Rule).

For example, you are legally obligated to stay at work until 5PM. As you are walking out the door, you notice that the secretary is rushing with some last-minute mailing. If you followed the old law only, you'd walk out the door feeling perfectly justified in your actions; after all you technically get off at 5PM--no one can blame you. But as a Christian, you'd empathize with her stress and and offer to lend her a hand, even if it cost you 5 unpaid minutes of your time.

That is what your friend means by 'above the law.'
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 01:57:52 PM by sainthieu »

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2011, 01:54:15 PM »
There is a HUGE difference between
"Christ Like"
and
"In the likeness of Christ"

What is it?  ???

Admit, this contest ain't as fun as mine.

True, though I am genuinely curious what he means.  :angel: I've been kicking around the idea of starting a thread on the likeness issue... I've read that in the Hebrew the image/likeness distinction so beloved amongst Orthodox theologians is absent. And even Jaroslav Pelikan, who obviously was not unsympathetic to Orthodox thought, said that the distinction was built on "shaky exegetical ground".

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2011, 03:00:46 PM »
There is a HUGE difference between
"Christ Like"
and
"In the likeness of Christ"

What is it?  ???

Admit, this contest ain't as fun as mine.

True, though I am genuinely curious what he means.  :angel: I've been kicking around the idea of starting a thread on the likeness issue... I've read that in the Hebrew the image/likeness distinction so beloved amongst Orthodox theologians is absent. And even Jaroslav Pelikan, who obviously was not unsympathetic to Orthodox thought, said that the distinction was built on "shaky exegetical ground".

I would agree. While it might have been made on "shaky" ground" (it is very semitic to repeat the same thing using a slightly different word for emphasis, see the Psalms), what came out of it was interesting and useful. Of course, one can always invoke Providence for anything.

I think that is the balance in being honest.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 03:01:20 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2011, 03:09:35 PM »
There is a HUGE difference between
"Christ Like"
and
"In the likeness of Christ"

What is it?  ???

Admit, this contest ain't as fun as mine.

True, though I am genuinely curious what he means.  :angel: I've been kicking around the idea of starting a thread on the likeness issue... I've read that in the Hebrew the image/likeness distinction so beloved amongst Orthodox theologians is absent. And even Jaroslav Pelikan, who obviously was not unsympathetic to Orthodox thought, said that the distinction was built on "shaky exegetical ground".
Perhaps the distinction lies in the sensus plenior rather than the mere words.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline lost

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2011, 03:09:58 PM »
i think she used freedom with the meaning to be more devoted...

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2011, 03:11:00 PM »
There is a HUGE difference between
"Christ Like"
and
"In the likeness of Christ"

What is it?  ???
"He doesn't look a thing like Jesus..."
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2011, 03:30:25 PM »
This is gnostic.

To be "Christ like" is to be "Like God".

To make yourself like God, you are doing exactly what Lucifer did in Isaiah 14.

The Gnostic teaching is to become as God, or "Do what thy wilt".

How on earth? She said be Christ-LIKE. We are all living icons of Christ, as we bear His image within us. We strive each day to resemble Christ more in our words, thoughts, and actions. That isn't gnostic.

There is a HUGE difference between
"Christ Like"
and
"In the likeness of Christ"

Well then, enlighten us on the difference.  ::)
Forgive my sins.

Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2011, 03:30:25 PM »
There is a HUGE difference between
"Christ Like"
and
"In the likeness of Christ"

What is it?  ???

Admit, this contest ain't as fun as mine.

Which southern state are you from? ???
Forgive my sins.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2011, 03:30:26 PM »
I got some emails from a lady that i was talking to about not being legalistic and the whole law thing. I didn't understand what she meant by this...

Poppy: It's the difference between a mere legalistic morality and genuine, sincere morality based in love.

The old Law of the Jews was defined in the Ten Commandments. If you contemplated doing something that was not obviously forbidden by the Commandments, you had to consult a rabbi for an evaluation, and he would determine the deed's morality. ('I know his ox and donkey are out of bounds, but what if I stole his lamb?') It made it possible for you to do someone else dirt while being, from a technical standpoint, blameless. It was a good system, but not perfect.

Christ brings humanity an entirely new revelation about morality and ethics that transcends--and replaces-- the old Law. It applies to how we think and feel, in addition to how we act. We are to act with kindness, love and empathy toward one another--not just see what we can get away with. If you always treat others as you wish to be treated yourself, you'll never hurt anyone again (the Golden Rule).

For example, you are legally obligated to stay at work until 5PM. As you are walking out the door, you notice that the secretary is rushing with some last-minute mailing. If you followed the old law only, you'd walk out the door feeling perfectly justified in your actions; after all you technically get off at 5PM--no one can blame you. But as a Christian, you'd empathize with her stress and and offer to lend her a hand, even if it cost you 5 unpaid minutes of your time.

That is what your friend means by 'above the law.'

Yeah your saying almost the same thing as her because i finally got a email back and she said that a person is free because they are not living TO the law they are living by another law of LOVE that supercedes the previous law because the law of love does what is asked and then some. So your not making yourself accountable to the previous law ever, because you are not doing anything out of obligation but out of choice which is why you do more than. Because if you did what was required then you would be doing what any other nom does in the world so because you subject yourself to the law that requires you to do ---this much--- then you can be judged by it still

but if you do --------------------THIS MUCH-------------------- then you cant be judged by the previous law because your not living to it. So therefore your free of it!!!

Thats a shorter version of what she said.

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2011, 08:59:58 PM »
I got some emails from a lady that i was talking to about not being legalistic and the whole law thing. I didn't understand what she meant by this...

Poppy: It's the difference between a mere legalistic morality and genuine, sincere morality based in love.

The old Law of the Jews was defined in the Ten Commandments. If you contemplated doing something that was not obviously forbidden by the Commandments, you had to consult a rabbi for an evaluation, and he would determine the deed's morality. ('I know his ox and donkey are out of bounds, but what if I stole his lamb?') It made it possible for you to do someone else dirt while being, from a technical standpoint, blameless. It was a good system, but not perfect.

Christ brings humanity an entirely new revelation about morality and ethics that transcends--and replaces-- the old Law. It applies to how we think and feel, in addition to how we act. We are to act with kindness, love and empathy toward one another--not just see what we can get away with. If you always treat others as you wish to be treated yourself, you'll never hurt anyone again (the Golden Rule).

For example, you are legally obligated to stay at work until 5PM. As you are walking out the door, you notice that the secretary is rushing with some last-minute mailing. If you followed the old law only, you'd walk out the door feeling perfectly justified in your actions; after all you technically get off at 5PM--no one can blame you. But as a Christian, you'd empathize with her stress and and offer to lend her a hand, even if it cost you 5 unpaid minutes of your time.

That is what your friend means by 'above the law.'

Yeah your saying almost the same thing as her because i finally got a email back and she said that a person is free because they are not living TO the law they are living by another law of LOVE that supercedes the previous law because the law of love does what is asked and then some. So your not making yourself accountable to the previous law ever, because you are not doing anything out of obligation but out of choice which is why you do more than. Because if you did what was required then you would be doing what any other nom does in the world so because you subject yourself to the law that requires you to do ---this much--- then you can be judged by it still

but if you do --------------------THIS MUCH-------------------- then you cant be judged by the previous law because your not living to it. So therefore your free of it!!!

Thats a shorter version of what she said.

Thanks for this, Poppy.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2011, 09:13:09 PM »
There is a HUGE difference between
"Christ Like"
and
"In the likeness of Christ"

What is it?  ???

Admit, this contest ain't as fun as mine.

Which southern state are you from? ???

The sociological end of the South: Southwest Ohio. Depending on the area you grow up in around here, you will have more in common with someone from Alabama than in the burbs.

I probably had to write: Ain't is not a word.

Thousands of times throughout school. Well it was in the dictionary and I am a contrarian piece of work. I like the word and it ain't like it ain't been in the English language for forever.

Used t'weren't as well. Twain. Yonder often shortened to yond', etc. Pen and pin were pronounced the same, hence us using ink pens. That sound I still have trouble with.

Basically, University English is a second language for me. But we still used more parts of speech in English than your average book learned suburb kid.

We still had the subjunctive down (hence t'weren't) and the past participle among others.

'Tis a mighty shame the rest y'all have done nearly lost 'em.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 09:14:11 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Living above the law
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2011, 11:34:03 PM »
There is a HUGE difference between
"Christ Like"
and
"In the likeness of Christ"

What is it?  ???

Admit, this contest ain't as fun as mine.

Which southern state are you from? ???

The sociological end of the South: Southwest Ohio. Depending on the area you grow up in around here, you will have more in common with someone from Alabama than in the burbs.

I probably had to write: Ain't is not a word.

Thousands of times throughout school. Well it was in the dictionary and I am a contrarian piece of work. I like the word and it ain't like it ain't been in the English language for forever.

Used t'weren't as well. Twain. Yonder often shortened to yond', etc. Pen and pin were pronounced the same, hence us using ink pens. That sound I still have trouble with.

Basically, University English is a second language for me. But we still used more parts of speech in English than your average book learned suburb kid.

We still had the subjunctive down (hence t'weren't) and the past participle among others.

'Tis a mighty shame the rest y'all have done nearly lost 'em.

I was just curious, I live in Louisiana and I've never seen anyone use ain't as much as you. It doesn't bother me or anything, I'm not a grammar nazi or anything. I was just curious if you were from the southern states. :p
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