Author Topic: Russian Church changing marriage  (Read 1127 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2015, 10:52:34 PM »
Christ is risen!
The part where the priest says : may you multiply like Rachel or Rebecca ( can't remember which one was more fruitful); what priest can read that with a straight face over a 70 yo woman?

For what its worth, I had an old pious priest tell me that when he performed marriages for elderly people he always interpreted the requests for "sons and daughters" to be spiritual sons and daughters of the couple. Such elderly couples could become have spiritual sons and daughters by taking in foster children, doing volunteer work with troubled youth, and simply by providing a godly witness of a Christian couple in old age to the entire world.  You never know how many spiritual children you'll give birth to if you simply let your light shine.  8)

Not to mention godchildren. ;)
+1

As I've noticed, the changes are very, very minor. In the ekteny:
О еже податися им целомудрию и плоду чрева на пользу,Господу помолимся.

That there may be given unto them soberness of life, and fruit of the womb as may be most expedient for them; let us pray to the Lord.


О еже дароватися им благочадия восприятию, и незазорному пребыванию, Господу помолимся.

That there may be granted unto them the happiness of abundant fertility, and a course of life blameless and unashamed; let us pray to the Lord.

And the prayers for the removing of the crowns: "Be magnified, O Bridegroom, as Abraham" and "And you, O Bride, be magnified as was Sarah" are not said.
That's all
That last part makes absolutely no sense. At least for anyone under 100 for the groom and 90 for the bride.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2015, 10:57:14 PM »
Christ is risen!
But ever since the days of the patriarchs have you seen women past the menopause multiplying like  Rebecca?
And?  I was not aware that Orthodoxy takes the stand that Latins do and forbid marriage between infertile couples?  Still fail to see how this change is a big deal?
Latins do not forbid marriage between infertile couples.  Only permanent impotency is an impediment to marriage.

So to be clear if a man has erectile dysfunction which does not respond to treatment but a woman loves him any way you won't marry them?  Shame on your church, if that's what is meant, as that's a filthy doctrine.  It makes me very disappointed in Roman Catholicism to hear that; I haven't felt as disillusioned about your church since seeimg Fr. Z preparing to make use on All Souls Day of a pall with an actual skull and crossbones of human origin affixed to it, which just seems sick.

I do believe there is good in the RC church but also great lingering evil and confusion from centuries of uncanonical involvement of the Pope in the affairs. The literal sexual affairs of the European nobility.  And the forensic view of sin, coupled with this hypocrisy, has resulted in a systemic instability which I am not sure the ancient church that once boasted the glorious St. Gregory Diologos as its patriarch, and before him, even more splendid figures like Ss. Clement and Peter, can survive, at least without a massive schism and reform.

I would need to do some research to double check, but I'm pretty sure "impotence" is an impediment to marriage in Orthodox tradition as well.  I'm not sure how that is supposed to be known prior to two people getting married, which is why it pops up (no pun intended) as a reason for which a couple may divorce (or, among the Roman Catholics, pursue an annulment).
it is grounds for a divorce but not an annullment-unlike the Vatican, consummation doesn't mark the point of no return.

And I recall a parapalygic (spl?) getting married by the Cardinal in Chicago. It was a big controversy when the couple was first denied.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2015, 12:39:34 AM »
But truth is that older peasant couples in places I know, after a certain age , at least pretended they quit having sex. They started sleeping in separate beds ; but that was because the public opinion mocked old people having sex ; now try to preach that here.

Do you know what the reasons were for that public opinion?

Offline homedad76

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2015, 12:59:30 AM »
here's contemporary news account^
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1917&dat=19820129&id=dWxGAAAAIBAJ&sjid=f-kMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2054,3248610&hl=en

And as it says in the article they could find no conclusive proof that his disability made him impotent.  Just as it doesn't take much to come up with a justification to nullify a marriage it takes a LOT to determine that impotency is an impediment to marriage.  Pretty much if you have the parts that is all that is required.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2015, 01:59:53 AM »
It's still a discriminatory policy that hurts a range of people from injured soldiers who may have been engaged when they left for war to cancer patients. 
Antisemitism, racism and prejudicial nationalism should have no place in Orthodoxy.  For to paraphrase  St. Paul, there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female, slave or freeman, in the Christian Church.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2015, 07:15:25 AM »
It's still a discriminatory policy that hurts a range of people from injured soldiers who may have been engaged when they left for war to cancer patients.

My guess--and it's just a guess--is that most priests overlook physical and age impediments to marriage when they suspect them but it's overly zealous laypeople who point to the letter of canon law and make loud protests.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2015, 08:30:36 AM »
It's a slippery slope from this to a new rite for marrying an aardvark and a toothbrush.

That case is already in front of the U.S. Supreme Court.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2015, 08:33:24 AM »
Does the Vatican require couples to be fertile before they can be married? First I've heard of it.

Stay on the inter web and you will hear everything.

BTW, no.
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Offline Philipa

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2015, 08:43:26 AM »
The part where the priest says : may you multiply like Rachel or Rebecca ( can't remember which one was more fruitful); what priest can read that with a straight face over a 70 yo woman?

For what its worth, I had an old pious priest tell me that when he performed marriages for elderly people he always interpreted the requests for "sons and daughters" to be spiritual sons and daughters of the couple. Such elderly couples could become have spiritual sons and daughters by taking in foster children, doing volunteer work with troubled youth, and simply by providing a godly witness of a Christian couple in old age to the entire world.  You never know how many spiritual children you'll give birth to if you simply let your light shine.  8)

Not to mention godchildren. ;)

Some elderly people are also quite active in their parish. I would consider that as having spiritual sons and daughters

Offline vamrat

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2015, 10:55:08 AM »
Regarding impotence, keep in mind that these impediments were probably made with the intent that the married couple weren't going for test drives before marriage.  If someone was found to be unable to have sex at all it would be a huge strain on the marriage.  St. Paul's instructions to husbands and wives to not deprive each other come to mind, lest satan tempt them.  Is it possible that they could live as brother and sister, but you have to be realistic and if people didn't like sex we'd have died out a long time ago.  Being fruitful was one of God's first instructions to humanity between which fruit should not be eaten and that critters should have names.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #56 on: May 08, 2015, 11:00:59 AM »
Well, I don't think you need a 'test drive' to know whether the engine starts or not.  I think it more has to do with deception and caveat emptor, since it probably behooves the impotent/frigid to make mention that certain things are not going to happen on the wedding night or thereafter.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #57 on: May 08, 2015, 11:31:14 AM »
Well, I don't think you need a 'test drive' to know whether the engine starts or not.  I think it more has to do with deception and caveat emptor, since it probably behooves the impotent/frigid to make mention that certain things are not going to happen on the wedding night or thereafter.

It seemed like one of the previous posters was outraged that this would be an impediment, though.  Caught in the throes of passion people might think "oh, they'll change" or "I can do without I love him/her so much".  It might be useful for the priest to at least have some caution before sanctifying an unbreakable union (as I am sure you know, far more than I do) that is likely to have some major issues.

[Not debating your point at all, just trying to clarify what i am trying to say.  Degrees of success may vary...]
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #58 on: May 08, 2015, 12:23:54 PM »
Well, there are 'impediments' and then there are 'grounds for divorce.'  I've never heard of a priest refusing to marry a couple because he knew one member was impotent/frigid, just as I have never heard of a refusal based on the age of the participants.  In fact, I don't ever recall the topic coming up in seminary or clergy gatherings, though we did hear lots about how to deal with cohabitants and the incontinent.

To be honest, couples come to me long after the emotional 'point of no return.'  Nothing that I say has anything to do with what they will do, save the canons and the specific instructions from the hierarchy.  All I can do is enforce the absolute minimum of standards.  Even the Marriage Service presupposes that the arrangement for marriage takes place outside the precincts of the parish. 

I'm not comfortable with giving people too much personal advice on who to marry or who not to, as if anyone cared what I said to begin with.  I would hate to push someone into a marriage that would later be cause for pain, but neither would I want to misjudge and cause a couple to separate who would otherwise have a Godly union.  I'm just not that holy nor am I clairvoyant.

Until I receive specific instruction from my bishop, I will continue to tell couples to be as honest with each other as possible, and to remember that annoying habits now will only get more annoying once you are married, so figure out now if they are deal-breakers or not.  And, as in most cases, I will continue to get polite nods and smiles, because most folks know they have to appease the priest in order to get him to do what they want.


Well, I don't think you need a 'test drive' to know whether the engine starts or not.  I think it more has to do with deception and caveat emptor, since it probably behooves the impotent/frigid to make mention that certain things are not going to happen on the wedding night or thereafter.

It seemed like one of the previous posters was outraged that this would be an impediment, though.  Caught in the throes of passion people might think "oh, they'll change" or "I can do without I love him/her so much".  It might be useful for the priest to at least have some caution before sanctifying an unbreakable union (as I am sure you know, far more than I do) that is likely to have some major issues.

[Not debating your point at all, just trying to clarify what i am trying to say.  Degrees of success may vary...]
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Offline wgw

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Re: Russian Church changing marriage
« Reply #59 on: May 08, 2015, 06:28:22 PM »
Regarding impotence and frigidity by the way Father if we are talking about ED and undesired constriction of the female reproductive organ preventing coitus, there are treatments for both of these if the genitalia are intact, which require a certain amount of love and care.

For the former, you have a plethora of blood flow-increasing medicines and also the use of the vacuum/venal constriction apparatus, which is rather a last resort but is known to work where all else fails.

For the latter, there is the use of medical glass dilators which was famously recommended by Dr. Alex Comfort Tiffany in a certain book which I would not expect to find in your library but which occupies an almost legendary spot in American popular culture as something that went along with the decline of social values in the late 1960s.  That said, this treatment was recommended by an MD, albeit in a most indelicate shall we say technical manual.  I have no doubt since that time improved techniques have been developed for the treatment of these conditions.

So for couples confronted with these problems it's not game over but it does require I would expect a heightened commitment.

Now I also want to salute you for your approach to counseling couples before marriage about annoying habits.  My great uncle Wendell, a retired Methodist minister who enthusiastically supported my decision to become Orthodox, who I would say lives with his wife of 60 years an Orthodoxiform life of piety and simplicity, and who was tortured in Lisbon by the Salazar regime during the Angola Crisis in 1957 (he had been a missionary in Angola, and he later returned and worked there more after the end of Lusotropicalism with the Carnation Revolution of 1974), told me years ago he insists on interviewing couples about their habits to make sure there has been an honest exchange of information particularly regarding potentially annoying habits before agreeing to marry them.

Alas it is regrettable people seem to want to appease you and view you as an obstacle rather than working with you to make a successful marriage happen.  It seems to me they're just shooting themselves in the foot.
Antisemitism, racism and prejudicial nationalism should have no place in Orthodoxy.  For to paraphrase  St. Paul, there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female, slave or freeman, in the Christian Church.