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« on: October 26, 2014, 11:25:25 PM »

Does your priest pray aloud those prayers of the Divine Liturgy which are generally said quietly, particularly the prayers leading up to the exclamation at the end of the litanies, and the Anaphora? Do you think he should? If he does, do you think he shouldn't? Why?
For those better versed in the history of the Church, which do you think is the more ancient practice?
This question is intended primarily for Byzantine Christians, but I'd be interested in the opinions of Oriental Christians as well, since as Mor Ephrem has informed me elsewhere, priests of the West Syriac, Coptic, and Ethiopian rites have always read the Anaphora aloud.
Personally, my parish priest chants many "secret prayers" aloud, defending them on the basis of a quote from St. John Chrysostom I can't remember which indicates that liturgical prayers should be said aloud, as well as the fact that the Anaphora of St. John Chrysostom says "With these blessed powers, O man-befriending Master, we also cry aloud and say...".
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2014, 11:30:40 PM »

I can't speak for the OOs, but I've heard all too many instances of priestly prayers being said at the same volume level as what the choir is singing or chanting at that time. It is utterly distracting and disorderly, particularly at the highest and most solemn point of the Liturgy.
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2014, 08:35:38 AM »

Within American EO, within jurisdictions and even within dioceses of jurisdictions, this practice varies widely. Some priests read so much aloud, they seemingly double the time of Liturgy. Apparently, the longer it is, apparently is "better." Others "stick" to the regular "book." Some pick and choose parts. Some choirs or cantors "wait", others sing over the priest. I think that some consistency ought to prevail.

Is this done in Europe?
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2014, 10:05:26 AM »

I should add for clarity that in my experience the chanting of these prayers occurs after the choir has finished singing.
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2014, 10:52:31 AM »

I've heard all too many instances of priestly prayers being said at the same volume level as what the choir is singing or chanting at that time. It is utterly distracting and disorderly, particularly at the highest and most solemn point of the Liturgy.

This is especially troublesome if the priests have microphones clipped to their vestments, I've seen this done in a really small parish where their is clearly no need, if the priest just wants to speak a little louder that isn't as much of an issue, but I don't understand the need to mic priests.
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2014, 11:22:20 AM »

This probably won't be a satisfying answer to anybody, but I at least I can say I have tried:

I would simply accept the practice of my local priest.  If he is saying the prayers aloud, I would encourage him to continue.  If he is saying them in a low voice (sotto voce), then I would also humbly accept that as well.  I have heard most of the proposals for saying the prayers aloud, and the advocates of such a position can indeed make a convincing case.  However, perhaps not as well known, at least here in the USA, the arguments for praying the priest's prayers in a low voice can be discussed and valued as well.  I know really good priests, men whom I greatly respect, who come down on both sides of this issue.  Some prayer the prayers aloud, some pray them in a low voice.  I know of bishops that permit both practices in their dioceses and leave it up to the discretion of the priest whether to say the prayers aloud or in a low voice.  I have heard very convincing arguments from priests both for saying the prayers aloud and for saying them in a low voice.

In my personal experience, I have found that many priests trained at St. Vladimirs prefer the prayers recited aloud. I have also noticed that some priests trained at St. Tikhon's prefer the prayers recited in a low voice.  In my worship at other Orthodox Churches it has been my experience that the Greek clergy recite these prayers silently. (I am in the Metropolis of Atlanta).  However, many Greek Orthodox from California tell me it is the custom there for the priest to recite these prayers aloud. In parishes of the Russian Church Abroad I have always experienced these prayers recited in a low voice.  Therefore, it appears that we have a little diversity on our hands regarding how this issue is handled.

I would encourage people not to judge other priests and parishes that do it differently from your home parish.  I would stay away from all arguments about which is the most "ancient" and "primitive" practice.  I would, however, encourage those who have questions about it to ask their parish priest and have him explain his view of it.  Such pastoral instruction in the meaning and purpose of the Liturgy is always helpful.

I would really, really encourage new converts not to become partisans one way or the other on this issue and to graciously and respectfully accept the practice of their parish priest.  Remember that, ultimately, we are a hierarchical Church and it is the bishop's place to tell the priest what to do and how to serve the Liturgy, not the laity.
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2014, 11:45:47 AM »

This probably won't be a satisfying answer to anybody...

I would really, really encourage new converts not to become partisans one way or the other on this issue and to graciously and respectfully accept the practice of their parish priest.  Remember that, ultimately, we are a hierarchical Church and it is the bishop's place to tell the priest what to do and how to serve the Liturgy, not the laity.

You've satisfied me  Wink

This sounds like good advice, and I agree. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on the matter, but you definitely shouldn't go around demanding things change to your preference, but I didn't get the impression that is what you were planning to do.
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2014, 01:04:05 PM »

This probably won't be a satisfying answer to anybody, but I at least I can say I have tried:

I would simply accept the practice of my local priest.  If he is saying the prayers aloud, I would encourage him to continue.  If he is saying them in a low voice (sotto voce), then I would also humbly accept that as well.  I have heard most of the proposals for saying the prayers aloud, and the advocates of such a position can indeed make a convincing case.  However, perhaps not as well known, at least here in the USA, the arguments for praying the priest's prayers in a low voice can be discussed and valued as well.  I know really good priests, men whom I greatly respect, who come down on both sides of this issue.  Some prayer the prayers aloud, some pray them in a low voice.  I know of bishops that permit both practices in their dioceses and leave it up to the discretion of the priest whether to say the prayers aloud or in a low voice.  I have heard very convincing arguments from priests both for saying the prayers aloud and for saying them in a low voice.

In my personal experience, I have found that many priests trained at St. Vladimirs prefer the prayers recited aloud. I have also noticed that some priests trained at St. Tikhon's prefer the prayers recited in a low voice.  In my worship at other Orthodox Churches it has been my experience that the Greek clergy recite these prayers silently. (I am in the Metropolis of Atlanta).  However, many Greek Orthodox from California tell me it is the custom there for the priest to recite these prayers aloud. In parishes of the Russian Church Abroad I have always experienced these prayers recited in a low voice.  Therefore, it appears that we have a little diversity on our hands regarding how this issue is handled.

I would encourage people not to judge other priests and parishes that do it differently from your home parish.  I would stay away from all arguments about which is the most "ancient" and "primitive" practice.  I would, however, encourage those who have questions about it to ask their parish priest and have him explain his view of it.  Such pastoral instruction in the meaning and purpose of the Liturgy is always helpful.

I would really, really encourage new converts not to become partisans one way or the other on this issue and to graciously and respectfully accept the practice of their parish priest.  Remember that, ultimately, we are a hierarchical Church and it is the bishop's place to tell the priest what to do and how to serve the Liturgy, not the laity.

I don't disagree except to note it is especially disconcerting  when within a diocese, eparchy or Metropolis, some clergy clearly "pick and choose" usually unbeknownst to their ruling bishop. (Often based on either the practice of their seminary or their clergy friends.  Obedience is not just for the laity.
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2014, 01:26:41 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2014, 03:08:44 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.

Since you brought it up, I was thinking the same thing.
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2014, 03:29:29 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.

Our previous priest sang/said the entire Anaphora aloud which lengthened liturgy by about 20 minutes.  Our current pastor prays most of in silent (Shouting, proclaiming, and saying...silently/quietly until "Take eat").  He also does the Epiclesis with the congregation saying "Amen".  Wasn't aware this wasn't the norm.  BTW, our current priest is from Lebanon and I have seen Liturgy with a couple Bishops were the congregation responds with Amen.

I have to be honest and say that I don't think that's nearly as odd as repeating the words of consecration and Epiclesis in English and then again in Greek. That's how the two Greek churches did it when I visited.  Not that it's the norm, I don't think it is.  I think these things come from a variety of factors.
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2014, 04:27:36 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.

Our previous priest sang/said the entire Anaphora aloud which lengthened liturgy by about 20 minutes.  Our current pastor prays most of in silent (Shouting, proclaiming, and saying...silently/quietly until "Take eat").  He also does the Epiclesis with the congregation saying "Amen".  Wasn't aware this wasn't the norm.  BTW, our current priest is from Lebanon and I have seen Liturgy with a couple Bishops were the congregation responds with Amen.

I have to be honest and say that I don't think that's nearly as odd as repeating the words of consecration and Epiclesis in English and then again in Greek. That's how the two Greek churches did it when I visited.  Not that it's the norm, I don't think it is.  I think these things come from a variety of factors.

My son used to attend an Antiochian parish in upstate New York where they did that in Arabic and English with the epistle, the Gospel, the homily and the Epiclesis. That's odd. ( and long )
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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2014, 04:39:19 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.

Our previous priest sang/said the entire Anaphora aloud which lengthened liturgy by about 20 minutes.  Our current pastor prays most of in silent (Shouting, proclaiming, and saying...silently/quietly until "Take eat").  He also does the Epiclesis with the congregation saying "Amen".  Wasn't aware this wasn't the norm.  BTW, our current priest is from Lebanon and I have seen Liturgy with a couple Bishops were the congregation responds with Amen.

I have to be honest and say that I don't think that's nearly as odd as repeating the words of consecration and Epiclesis in English and then again in Greek. That's how the two Greek churches did it when I visited.  Not that it's the norm, I don't think it is.  I think these things come from a variety of factors.

My son used to attend an Antiochian parish in upstate New York where they did that in Arabic and English with the epistle, the Gospel, the homily and the Epiclesis. That's odd. ( and long )

I agree that it's strange to say the Epiclesis twice, ever.  The Gospel and Epistle I can see if you have a fair number of people who don't speak English.  Two sermons though?  That had to be 2 hours minimum.
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2014, 04:52:35 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.

Our previous priest sang/said the entire Anaphora aloud which lengthened liturgy by about 20 minutes.  Our current pastor prays most of in silent (Shouting, proclaiming, and saying...silently/quietly until "Take eat").  He also does the Epiclesis with the congregation saying "Amen".  Wasn't aware this wasn't the norm.  BTW, our current priest is from Lebanon and I have seen Liturgy with a couple Bishops were the congregation responds with Amen.

I have to be honest and say that I don't think that's nearly as odd as repeating the words of consecration and Epiclesis in English and then again in Greek. That's how the two Greek churches did it when I visited.  Not that it's the norm, I don't think it is.  I think these things come from a variety of factors.

My son used to attend an Antiochian parish in upstate New York where they did that in Arabic and English with the epistle, the Gospel, the homily and the Epiclesis. That's odd. ( and long )

I agree that it's strange to say the Epiclesis twice, ever.  The Gospel and Epistle I can see if you have a fair number of people who don't speak English.  Two sermons though?  That had to be 2 hours minimum.

It is fair to note that the parish had a large number of Arab American parishioners and few non Arabs or converts. Really nice people and priest there.

Close to two hours though is the norm at home and that's all English and little 'out loud' prayers, ACROD parish.
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2014, 08:28:23 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.
You do understand that reason the Deacon says the Amens at the Epiclesis is because it is silent and the choir is singing leaving the people no way to hear or respond.  In traditions that kept the Epiclesis aloud the people retained the Amens, including the Byzantine Liturgy of St James.
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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2014, 08:39:03 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.

Our previous priest sang/said the entire Anaphora aloud which lengthened liturgy by about 20 minutes.  Our current pastor prays most of in silent (Shouting, proclaiming, and saying...silently/quietly until "Take eat").  He also does the Epiclesis with the congregation saying "Amen".  Wasn't aware this wasn't the norm.  BTW, our current priest is from Lebanon and I have seen Liturgy with a couple Bishops were the congregation responds with Amen.

I have to be honest and say that I don't think that's nearly as odd as repeating the words of consecration and Epiclesis in English and then again in Greek. That's how the two Greek churches did it when I visited.  Not that it's the norm, I don't think it is.  I think these things come from a variety of factors.

My son used to attend an Antiochian parish in upstate New York where they did that in Arabic and English with the epistle, the Gospel, the homily and the Epiclesis. That's odd. ( and long )

I agree that it's strange to say the Epiclesis twice, ever.  The Gospel and Epistle I can see if you have a fair number of people who don't speak English.  Two sermons though?  That had to be 2 hours minimum.

It is fair to note that the parish had a large number of Arab American parishioners and few non Arabs or converts. Really nice people and priest there.

Close to two hours though is the norm at home and that's all English and little 'out loud' prayers, ACROD parish.


Although I have often heard them, I was always uncomfortable with a bi-lingual epiclesis, or bi-lingual words of institution.  As one wry person said to me, What, God doesn't understand English?   Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2014, 12:48:06 AM »

I would simply accept the practice of my local priest.



Are you crazy?  Cheesy


Everybody knows a good Orthodox Christian should pull their priest aside to discuss the proper practice.  Cool
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2014, 09:43:02 AM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.
You do understand that reason the Deacon says the Amens at the Epiclesis is because it is silent and the choir is singing leaving the people no way to hear or respond.  In traditions that kept the Epiclesis aloud the people retained the Amens, including the Byzantine Liturgy of St James.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I DO UNDERSTAND.  The condescension in your posts is really beginning to irritate me. 

But even in the liturgical books, the amens are for the deacon and the holy doors should be closed while the choir and the people sing "we praise thee, we bless thee..."  so there should be no reason for them to say amen.  However, since the priest waits for the hymn "we praise thee, we bless thee..." to be completed before the epiclesis prayer, I regard that as an innovation.
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2014, 10:58:40 AM »

The only reason I hear it is because I'm the only one, besides the two ladies (one the priest's wife) who are singing in the choir, that are there during a weekday liturgy.
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2014, 10:59:49 AM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.
You do understand that reason the Deacon says the Amens at the Epiclesis is because it is silent and the choir is singing leaving the people no way to hear or respond.  In traditions that kept the Epiclesis aloud the people retained the Amens, including the Byzantine Liturgy of St James.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I DO UNDERSTAND.  The condescension in your posts is really beginning to irritate me. 

But even in the liturgical books, the amens are for the deacon and the holy doors should be closed while the choir and the people sing "we praise thee, we bless thee..."  so there should be no reason for them to say amen.  However, since the priest waits for the hymn "we praise thee, we bless thee..." to be completed before the epiclesis prayer, I regard that as an innovation.

Well, if we're going to be this legalistic about it, I have yet to go to an EO church where "the people" are also singing "We praise thee, we bless thee...".  "Some people" or "a few people", sure, but not "the people".  

As for the priest waiting for the hymn to end before continuing with the epiclesis, I'm not sure why that is an innovation.  Do the rubrics prescribe that the priest pray the epiclesis during the singing of this hymn or is that just how it's been done?  If the rubrics are silent on this point, I would suggest that "waiting" is the proper practice and what you see in most churches nowadays is just a shortcut to shave two minutes off the service.  

The closed doors is an interesting point, perhaps in your favour.  But the only EO I've ever seen do this in real life are ROCOR and Matthewites.  How old is this custom and what are its origins?  

And LOL at "condescension" being irritating to you.  Tongue
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2014, 11:51:10 AM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.
You do understand that reason the Deacon says the Amens at the Epiclesis is because it is silent and the choir is singing leaving the people no way to hear or respond.  In traditions that kept the Epiclesis aloud the people retained the Amens, including the Byzantine Liturgy of St James.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I DO UNDERSTAND.  The condescension in your posts is really beginning to irritate me. 

But even in the liturgical books, the amens are for the deacon and the holy doors should be closed while the choir and the people sing "we praise thee, we bless thee..."  so there should be no reason for them to say amen.  However, since the priest waits for the hymn "we praise thee, we bless thee..." to be completed before the epiclesis prayer, I regard that as an innovation.

Well, if we're going to be this legalistic about it, I have yet to go to an EO church where "the people" are also singing "We praise thee, we bless thee...".  "Some people" or "a few people", sure, but not "the people".  

As for the priest waiting for the hymn to end before continuing with the epiclesis, I'm not sure why that is an innovation.  Do the rubrics prescribe that the priest pray the epiclesis during the singing of this hymn or is that just how it's been done?  If the rubrics are silent on this point, I would suggest that "waiting" is the proper practice and what you see in most churches nowadays is just a shortcut to shave two minutes off the service.  

The closed doors is an interesting point, perhaps in your favour.  But the only EO I've ever seen do this in real life are ROCOR and Matthewites.  How old is this custom and what are its origins?  

And LOL at "condescension" being irritating to you.  Tongue

Kudos to you on the British spelling. 

I was thinking the same thing when I wrote that.  Pot meet kettle, right?
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2014, 11:55:27 AM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.
You do understand that reason the Deacon says the Amens at the Epiclesis is because it is silent and the choir is singing leaving the people no way to hear or respond.  In traditions that kept the Epiclesis aloud the people retained the Amens, including the Byzantine Liturgy of St James.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I DO UNDERSTAND.  The condescension in your posts is really beginning to irritate me. 

But even in the liturgical books, the amens are for the deacon and the holy doors should be closed while the choir and the people sing "we praise thee, we bless thee..."  so there should be no reason for them to say amen.  However, since the priest waits for the hymn "we praise thee, we bless thee..." to be completed before the epiclesis prayer, I regard that as an innovation.

Well, if we're going to be this legalistic about it, I have yet to go to an EO church where "the people" are also singing "We praise thee, we bless thee...".  "Some people" or "a few people", sure, but not "the people".  

As for the priest waiting for the hymn to end before continuing with the epiclesis, I'm not sure why that is an innovation.  Do the rubrics prescribe that the priest pray the epiclesis during the singing of this hymn or is that just how it's been done?  If the rubrics are silent on this point, I would suggest that "waiting" is the proper practice and what you see in most churches nowadays is just a shortcut to shave two minutes off the service.  

The closed doors is an interesting point, perhaps in your favour.  But the only EO I've ever seen do this in real life are ROCOR and Matthewites.  How old is this custom and what are its origins?  

And LOL at "condescension" being irritating to you.  Tongue

Ditto here.  Not everyone is a rubricist (if a word - rubrics expert) such as your self.
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2014, 12:00:00 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.
You do understand that reason the Deacon says the Amens at the Epiclesis is because it is silent and the choir is singing leaving the people no way to hear or respond.  In traditions that kept the Epiclesis aloud the people retained the Amens, including the Byzantine Liturgy of St James.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I DO UNDERSTAND.  The condescension in your posts is really beginning to irritate me. 

But even in the liturgical books, the amens are for the deacon and the holy doors should be closed while the choir and the people sing "we praise thee, we bless thee..."  so there should be no reason for them to say amen.  However, since the priest waits for the hymn "we praise thee, we bless thee..." to be completed before the epiclesis prayer, I regard that as an innovation.

Well, if we're going to be this legalistic about it, I have yet to go to an EO church where "the people" are also singing "We praise thee, we bless thee...".  "Some people" or "a few people", sure, but not "the people".  

As for the priest waiting for the hymn to end before continuing with the epiclesis, I'm not sure why that is an innovation.  Do the rubrics prescribe that the priest pray the epiclesis during the singing of this hymn or is that just how it's been done?  If the rubrics are silent on this point, I would suggest that "waiting" is the proper practice and what you see in most churches nowadays is just a shortcut to shave two minutes off the service.  

The closed doors is an interesting point, perhaps in your favour.  But the only EO I've ever seen do this in real life are ROCOR and Matthewites.  How old is this custom and what are its origins?  

And LOL at "condescension" being irritating to you.  Tongue

Ditto here.  Not everyone is a rubricist (if a word - rubrics expert) such as your self.

No such word exists.  And if you're trying to insult me, you have failed.  I follow the rubrics because I don't believe in reinventing the wheel.
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2014, 12:03:45 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was due to my "EOC"kind.   Wink  It kinda bothers me too.

Something that really bothers me too is how the "Among the first remember our +Met PHILLIP..." is done...or at least in a few former EOC parishes.  While I can hear my own clergy saying it (either the celebrant or all serving priests), ISTM that in those AOA parishes at least, pretty much EVERYONE in the altar must say it loudly in unison (with annoying nasal baptist-like voices) and really sticks out...back to the "dear leader hero worship" referred to here in days of yore (but with that said, Memory Eternal +Met PHILLIP).
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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2014, 12:05:02 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.
You do understand that reason the Deacon says the Amens at the Epiclesis is because it is silent and the choir is singing leaving the people no way to hear or respond.  In traditions that kept the Epiclesis aloud the people retained the Amens, including the Byzantine Liturgy of St James.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I DO UNDERSTAND.  The condescension in your posts is really beginning to irritate me.  

But even in the liturgical books, the amens are for the deacon and the holy doors should be closed while the choir and the people sing "we praise thee, we bless thee..."  so there should be no reason for them to say amen.  However, since the priest waits for the hymn "we praise thee, we bless thee..." to be completed before the epiclesis prayer, I regard that as an innovation.

Well, if we're going to be this legalistic about it, I have yet to go to an EO church where "the people" are also singing "We praise thee, we bless thee...".  "Some people" or "a few people", sure, but not "the people".  

As for the priest waiting for the hymn to end before continuing with the epiclesis, I'm not sure why that is an innovation.  Do the rubrics prescribe that the priest pray the epiclesis during the singing of this hymn or is that just how it's been done?  If the rubrics are silent on this point, I would suggest that "waiting" is the proper practice and what you see in most churches nowadays is just a shortcut to shave two minutes off the service.  

The closed doors is an interesting point, perhaps in your favour.  But the only EO I've ever seen do this in real life are ROCOR and Matthewites.  How old is this custom and what are its origins?  

And LOL at "condescension" being irritating to you.  Tongue

Ditto here.  Not everyone is a rubricist (if a word - rubrics expert) such as your self.

No such word exists.  And if you're trying to insult me, you have failed.  I follow the rubrics because I don't believe in reinventing the wheel.

I'm not trying to insult you - you just give the impression more of a snooty academic.  Relax.  You're a mainstay here and have plenty to contribute.
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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2014, 12:12:04 PM »



No such word exists. 


Oh really?


Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
(n.)
One skilled in, or tenaciously adhering to, the rubric or rubrics.


So sure...its out of date.


The slightly more modern equivalent is

Full Definition of RUBRICIAN
:  one skilled in the knowledge of or tenaciously adhering to a rubric
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« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2014, 12:18:55 PM »

The correct term is obsolete not out of date.
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« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2014, 12:19:54 PM »

The correct term is obsolete not out of date.


surely as one who teaches Latin, you would be the most familiar with such terms.
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« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2014, 12:20:09 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.
You do understand that reason the Deacon says the Amens at the Epiclesis is because it is silent and the choir is singing leaving the people no way to hear or respond.  In traditions that kept the Epiclesis aloud the people retained the Amens, including the Byzantine Liturgy of St James.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I DO UNDERSTAND.  The condescension in your posts is really beginning to irritate me. 

But even in the liturgical books, the amens are for the deacon and the holy doors should be closed while the choir and the people sing "we praise thee, we bless thee..."  so there should be no reason for them to say amen.  However, since the priest waits for the hymn "we praise thee, we bless thee..." to be completed before the epiclesis prayer, I regard that as an innovation.

Well, if we're going to be this legalistic about it, I have yet to go to an EO church where "the people" are also singing "We praise thee, we bless thee...".  "Some people" or "a few people", sure, but not "the people".  

As for the priest waiting for the hymn to end before continuing with the epiclesis, I'm not sure why that is an innovation.  Do the rubrics prescribe that the priest pray the epiclesis during the singing of this hymn or is that just how it's been done?  If the rubrics are silent on this point, I would suggest that "waiting" is the proper practice and what you see in most churches nowadays is just a shortcut to shave two minutes off the service.  

The closed doors is an interesting point, perhaps in your favour.  But the only EO I've ever seen do this in real life are ROCOR and Matthewites.  How old is this custom and what are its origins?  

And LOL at "condescension" being irritating to you.  Tongue

Ditto here.  Not everyone is a rubricist (if a word - rubrics expert) such as your self.

No such word exists.  And if you're trying to insult me, you have failed.  I follow the rubrics because I don't believe in reinventing the wheel.

I'm not trying to insult you - you just give the impression more of a snooty academic.  Relax.

I'm an educator with a Ph.D, but no academic. Those guys couldn't teach to save their lives.  
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« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2014, 12:21:16 PM »

The correct term is obsolete not out of date.


surely as one who teaches Latin, you would be the most familiar with such terms.

Wow, you're clever.  Just kidding.  How long did it take you to google that clever retort?
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« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2014, 12:21:52 PM »

The correct term is obsolete not out of date.

And a pedanticist too!   Wink
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« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2014, 12:26:07 PM »

, I have yet to go to an EO church where "the people" are also singing "We praise thee, we bless thee...".  "Some people" or "a few people", sure, but not "the people".


The closed doors is an interesting point, perhaps in your favour.  But the only EO I've ever seen do this in real life are ROCOR and Matthewites.  How old is this custom and what are its origins?  



Here is a clip with 'the people' singing 'we praise thee' etc... AND with the doors open....and without audible prayers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAcmqQBWAgU&list=UUxUNL7NYaIegagxPUfY0Y2A&index=208


SS. Cyril and Methodius Orthodox Church, Mercer, PA with the late Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos celebrating the Liturgy. ACROD

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« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2014, 12:27:18 PM »

The correct term is obsolete not out of date.


surely as one who teaches Latin, you would be the most familiar with such terms.

Wow, you're clever.  Just kidding.  How long did it take you to google that clever retort?

It obviously took me much longer to google that (well except I didn't)  than it took you to be rude.  I assume you didn't have to google how to be that either.....
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« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2014, 12:49:57 PM »

I've heard all too many instances of priestly prayers being said at the same volume level as what the choir is singing or chanting at that time. It is utterly distracting and disorderly, particularly at the highest and most solemn point of the Liturgy.

This is especially troublesome if the priests have microphones clipped to their vestments, I've seen this done in a really small parish where their is clearly no need, if the priest just wants to speak a little louder that isn't as much of an issue, but I don't understand the need to mic priests.

Priests with mics routinely turn them on and off during the Liturgy.  If their mic is routinely on during the secret prayers, then it is most likely intentional.
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« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2014, 06:00:21 PM »

At a few parishes, I've been to, the priest and the congregation pray together aloud the prayer before proclaiming the Holy Gospel. I'm not a big fan of this and I'm not a fan either of the congregation saying Amen to the epiclesis prayers which are reserved for the priest and the deacon.  I wonder if that's an Antiochian thing.  Never during a  HIerarchichal LIturgy have I ever heard Bishop BASIL say the epiclesis prayers aloud as we are singing "We praise Thee, We bless thee..."  There seems to be a democratic movement in the church where the prayers of the priest should also be the prayers of the people.  I can only wonder if this is due to the influx of Protestants who still carry with them the baggage of anti-clericalism.
You do understand that reason the Deacon says the Amens at the Epiclesis is because it is silent and the choir is singing leaving the people no way to hear or respond.  In traditions that kept the Epiclesis aloud the people retained the Amens, including the Byzantine Liturgy of St James.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I DO UNDERSTAND.  The condescension in your posts is really beginning to irritate me. 

But even in the liturgical books, the amens are for the deacon and the holy doors should be closed while the choir and the people sing "we praise thee, we bless thee..."  so there should be no reason for them to say amen.  However, since the priest waits for the hymn "we praise thee, we bless thee..." to be completed before the epiclesis prayer, I regard that as an innovation.

I know what is in the liturgicon.  There are no authentic rubrics that instruct the priest to say the Anaphora to include the Epiclesis quietly.

"We praise You..." is the conclusion of the prayer "Remembering, therefore this salutary command, ... We offer to You Yours of Your own..." So yes the priest should wait.  The innovation was taking prayers silently while the choir sang to make the Liturgy quicker.  This abuse was decried by luminaries like St John Chrysostom and St Justinian the Emperor, but it continued until it became the norm and people now decry what they commanded, taking the Anaphora aloud.
 
The Amens being reserved to the Deacon arose directly because of this abuse.  How were the people to respond with the priest saying the Epiclesis silently and the choir singing?  The Amens were assigned to the Deacon by default not because they were originally his. 

The doors are a nonissue.  if their opening and closing were integral to the Liturgy we would not leave them open for Pascha and it would not be given as an award for priests to celebrate with them open.
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« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2014, 07:21:57 PM »

This abuse was decried by luminaries like St John Chrysostom and St Justinian the Emperor, but it continued until it became the norm and people now decry what they commanded, taking the Anaphora aloud.
Can you give some examples of where they spoke against this trend?
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« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2014, 08:03:49 PM »

I've heard all too many instances of priestly prayers being said at the same volume level as what the choir is singing or chanting at that time. It is utterly distracting and disorderly, particularly at the highest and most solemn point of the Liturgy.

This is especially troublesome if the priests have microphones clipped to their vestments, I've seen this done in a really small parish where their is clearly no need, if the priest just wants to speak a little louder that isn't as much of an issue, but I don't understand the need to mic priests.

Priests with mics routinely turn them on and off during the Liturgy.  If their mic is routinely on during the secret prayers, then it is most likely intentional.

I never doubted that it was intentional, I just doubted if it was wise. Even if the priest wanted those prayers to be audible, the sound quality would be much better if he just spoke a little louder rather than to pipe it through a speaker.
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« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2014, 09:39:32 PM »

This abuse was decried by luminaries like St John Chrysostom and St Justinian the Emperor, but it continued until it became the norm and people now decry what they commanded, taking the Anaphora aloud.
Can you give some examples of where they spoke against this trend?
http://www.jacwell.org/Supplements/reasons_and_dates.htm

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/shimchick_saying_amen.htm
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« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2014, 09:48:30 PM »

Well, if we're going to be this legalistic about it, I have yet to go to an EO church where "the people" are also singing "We praise thee, we bless thee...".  "Some people" or "a few people", sure, but not "the people".  

As for the priest waiting for the hymn to end before continuing with the epiclesis, I'm not sure why that is an innovation.  Do the rubrics prescribe that the priest pray the epiclesis during the singing of this hymn or is that just how it's been done?  If the rubrics are silent on this point, I would suggest that "waiting" is the proper practice and what you see in most churches nowadays is just a shortcut to shave two minutes off the service.  

The closed doors is an interesting point, perhaps in your favour.  But the only EO I've ever seen do this in real life are ROCOR and Matthewites.  How old is this custom and what are its origins?  

And LOL at "condescension" being irritating to you.  Tongue
I've seen Serbs and Romanians do it, too!
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« Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 03:39:25 PM »

, I have yet to go to an EO church where "the people" are also singing "We praise thee, we bless thee...".  "Some people" or "a few people", sure, but not "the people".


The closed doors is an interesting point, perhaps in your favour.  But the only EO I've ever seen do this in real life are ROCOR and Matthewites.  How old is this custom and what are its origins?  



Here is a clip with 'the people' singing 'we praise thee' etc... AND with the doors open....and without audible prayers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAcmqQBWAgU&list=UUxUNL7NYaIegagxPUfY0Y2A&index=208


SS. Cyril and Methodius Orthodox Church, Mercer, PA with the late Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos celebrating the Liturgy. ACROD




What beautiful singing!  I love it.
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