Author Topic: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish  (Read 1210 times)

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Offline Samn!

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O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« on: April 04, 2019, 01:27:45 PM »
Apologies for posting it as a Facebook link, but at this point Antioch does almost all their media outreach on Facebook.

From an Antiochian choir in Sweden, https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=418756355566885
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 01:28:36 PM by Samn! »

Offline Dominika

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2019, 01:37:14 PM »
Apologies for posting it as a Facebook link, but at this point Antioch does almost all their media outreach on Facebook.

From an Antiochian choir in Sweden, https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=418756355566885

Agreed, they use mainly Facebook (I remember situation when mother of patriarch John died and of course there was info only on FB page of the patriarchate, and I got a call from our Polish metropolia if it's really true, as they had checked the Antiochian 'normal' website and there was nothing), but in this case the same video is posted on Youtube ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4_ewEVWA9E
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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2019, 02:06:13 PM »
Is this one of the parishes in Southwestern Turkey? Anyone aware of what ethnicity the faithful identify with?
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Offline Dominika

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2019, 02:28:33 PM »
Is this one of the parishes in Southwestern Turkey? Anyone aware of what ethnicity the faithful identify with?

It's written "choir of saint Catherine parish of st. Elias, Sweden; photos: church of st. George, Sweden".


I suppose they're Syrians (not Syriacs).
Actually, some of Arab Orthodox after the bittle of Yarmuk moved into today's eastern part of Turkey. So, I'd say Syrians and/or Arabs. However, many of them use Turkish as the 1st language, Arabic dialect as the 2nd language, and at church official Arabic plus some Turkish.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2019, 02:30:56 PM »
Is this one of the parishes in Southwestern Turkey? Anyone aware of what ethnicity the faithful identify with?

This is from a parish in Sweden, but I imagine that the people are mostly from Hatay. The Orthodox of the Middle East tend to be largely uninterested in ethnicity as such, unless it's asserting Arabness over and against foreign occupiers. In Hatay, which was basically stolen by Turkey from Syria in the 1930s, the people historically spoke Arabic at home, though now slowly less and less. But even earlier, in the Ottoman period, Turkish was also commonly a language used by Levantine Orthodox as part of their linguistic repertoire.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2019, 04:06:44 PM »
Is this one of the parishes in Southwestern Turkey? Anyone aware of what ethnicity the faithful identify with?

This is from a parish in Sweden, but I imagine that the people are mostly from Hatay. The Orthodox of the Middle East tend to be largely uninterested in ethnicity as such, unless it's asserting Arabness over and against foreign occupiers. In Hatay, which was basically stolen by Turkey from Syria in the 1930s, the people historically spoke Arabic at home, though now slowly less and less. But even earlier, in the Ottoman period, Turkish was also commonly a language used by Levantine Orthodox as part of their linguistic repertoire.

Just out of curiosity, Hatay is formerly where Hattusa, the capital of the ancient Hittite Empire is located, right?

I love the video by the way.  I’ve often wondered about the bizarre non-canonical Turkish Orthodox Church, if they have a sincere faith and what their story is, and I would love to see the liturgy available in Turkish both to cater to Turkish speaking Christians and perhaps to pick up some converts.

It would be greatly interesting to know the full extent to which Christians in Turkey speak Turkish, and to what extent it is used in worship, across all of the denominations (EO, OO, RC, Protestant).

The Syriac Orthodox in Tur Abdin, which I think is also in the area Dominika is talking about, historically spoke two vernacular dialects, Mhlaso, which is basically extinct (I think there are two or three surviving semi-native speakers who speak it plus another dialect; they had a conference call on Skype arranged by linguists a few years back), and Turoyo, which literally means “Turkish” but refers to a western neo-Aramaic/West Syriac dialect spoken in Turkey, is extremely endangered.  There aren’t many Syriac Orthodox left in Tur Abdin.  I assume some of the Syriac Orthodox in Constantinople speak Turkish at least to some degree in a vernacular context; while the local Armenians more likely than not use Classical Armenian exclusively in their churches, I would not be totally shocked if there was a Syriac parish where Turkish was used as a vernacular language alongside Syriac. 

Thank you Samn and Dominika for this very interesting thread!

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2019, 04:09:45 PM »
Quote
they had a conference call on Skype arranged by linguists a few years back

I'm not sure if I would find that flattering or if I'd feel like a zoo animal LOL.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2019, 04:19:34 PM »


Just out of curiosity, Hatay is formerly where Hattusa, the capital of the ancient Hittite Empire is located, right?

I love the video by the way.  I’ve often wondered about the bizarre non-canonical Turkish Orthodox Church, if they have a sincere faith and what their story is, and I would love to see the liturgy available in Turkish both to cater to Turkish speaking Christians and perhaps to pick up some converts.

It would be greatly interesting to know the full extent to which Christians in Turkey speak Turkish, and to what extent it is used in worship, across all of the denominations (EO, OO, RC, Protestant).


Hatay is the area around Antakya and Iskenderun, so nothing to do with Hattusa. In terms of the Turkish Orthodox Church, the original idea behind its creation was to prevent the deportation of the substantial monolingual Turkish-speaking Orthodox populations of Anatolia, which obviously didn't work. Areas in Turkey that were under the Patriarchate of Antioch-- specifically (very non-Arab) Mersin, as Hatay hadn't been annexed to Turkey yet-- were exempted from the population transfer by the British literally because the Encyclopedia Britannica at the time said that the Patriarchate of Antioch wasn't ethnically Greek. Currently in Hatay, services, at least anecdotally, are about 70/30 Arabic/Turkish and, as seen in the video, there are a number of Antiochian parishes in Europe that also use Turkish to a greater or lesser extent. Although most Orthodox in Istanbul are internal migrants from Antioch's territory in Turkey, I'm unaware of any of the parishes there allowing Turkish in the liturgy.

Offline Sethrak

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2019, 06:30:57 PM »
The Turk made this ~ to confiscate Greek property and remove Orthodox influence from people in areas the turks appointed who suited them ~ the Greeks wanted their church buildings back ~ The turks gave, I think, St Mary's back but then knocked it down to build a road through it  ~ this is used to convert people to Islam ```

Orthodox people were told here is your church ~ but the priests Ha, were turks ~ where are they now ```


My Grandparents, mother's side, were from Adana ~ her prayer books ~ which I have here ~ are written in Armenian Alphabet ~ but in Turkish ~ there was a time when your tongue would be cut out for speaking Armenian ~ they came to America in the late 1800s ~ being of the few that survived the Hamidian Massacres ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres

My Grandfather ~ Father's father ~ had a silk factory ~ in Dicranakerts (city of Richard) now called Diyarbakar after the Turkish group that had the glory of the great killing in taking the city ```

Grandfather opened his factory as an Orphanage for the children who lived through the Hamidian massacre ```  My parents however met in California ~ but that's another story ```
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They say Ephrem was born in turkey ~ but he lived long before the Turks were able ~ after the 4th crusade to take the area ```
Ephrem found himself among a large group of refugees that fled west, first to Amida (Diyarbakir), and eventually settling in Edessa (modern Sanli Urfa) in 363. Ephrem, in his late fifties, applied himself to ministry in his new church, and seems to have continued his work as a teacher (perhaps in the School of Edessa). Edessa had always been at the heart of the Syriac-speaking world, and the city was full of rival philosophies and religions. Ephrem comments that Orthodox Nicene Christians were simply called "Palutians" in Edessa, after a former bishop. Arians, Marcionites, Manichees, Bardaisanites and various Gnostic sects proclaimed themselves as the true Church. In this confusion, Ephrem wrote a great number of hymns defending Orthodoxy. A later Syriac writer, Jacob of Serugh, wrote that Ephrem rehearsed all female choirs to sing his hymns set to Syriac folk tunes in the forum of Edessa.
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Ephrem_the_Syrian

He came to Dicranakerts ~ the city's name was not changed for many, many, many hundreds years later ```
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 06:36:04 PM by Sethrak »
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
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Offline Dominika

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2019, 07:12:58 AM »
 Sethrak, did you hear the chant and read the posts here? I know that Armenians now assiociate the word "Turkish" with genocide, and I'm not surprised by this, but this topic is not about this.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2019, 07:43:28 AM »
There is a reasonable amount of orthodox chant in gagauz turkish in youtube, most of them come from a guy named Sergi Üsümbeli.

Offline Dominika

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2019, 10:12:59 AM »
There is a reasonable amount of orthodox chant in gagauz turkish in youtube, most of them come from a guy named Sergi Üsümbeli.

Very nice channel of him, thank you for giving this name! :)
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2019, 10:16:03 AM »
There is a reasonable amount of orthodox chant in gagauz turkish in youtube, most of them come from a guy named Sergi Üsümbeli.

Very nice channel of him, thank you for giving this name! :)

+1

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Samn!

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2019, 12:28:03 PM »
This guy's chanting is wonderful!  I'd like to know more about the background to it... I've never heard Byzantine-style chant in (the Republic of) Moldova and I wonder when the translation he uses was made.

Offline Dominika

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2019, 12:29:51 PM »
BTW videos both from YouTube and Facebook have disappeared  :(
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Offline juliogb

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2019, 01:23:31 PM »
This guy's chanting is wonderful!  I'd like to know more about the background to it... I've never heard Byzantine-style chant in (the Republic of) Moldova and I wonder when the translation he uses was made.

Ask him, apparently he answers comments of his videos.

Offline KostaC

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2019, 07:43:47 PM »
I love the video by the way.  I’ve often wondered about the bizarre non-canonical Turkish Orthodox Church, if they have a sincere faith and what their story is, and I would love to see the liturgy available in Turkish both to cater to Turkish speaking Christians and perhaps to pick up some converts.

It would be greatly interesting to know the full extent to which Christians in Turkey speak Turkish, and to what extent it is used in worship, across all of the denominations (EO, OO, RC, Protestant).

They don't. They have four members now, all siblings. They're in the news every now and then for saying ridiculous things. They're truly Turkey's Westboro Baptist Church except in the '80's Fred Phelps got an NAACP award for being not racist and the Turkish Orthodox Church got their only parishes using a mob and corrupt policemen in the mid '20's. I've only ever been able to find one picture of the current bishop but he's looking down in it so it barely counts. The only member to really go out in public is the bishop's sister, Sevgi Erenerol, and she's run for parliament before with the backing of the Grey Wolves. They're a joke of an organization.

Just about everyone in Istanbul who's a Christian is going to speak Turkish save for maybe the newest wave of Syrian refugees. The accent of the last 2,500 Constantinopolitans to me sounds different. There were times when as a young kid I'd space out . The remaining 19-25 youths under 20 all speak Turkish before Greek, if at all. Even to this day, there are still Constantinopolitans moving to Athens. One bookstore owner interviewed in Hello Anatolia was in his 20's and he got out in the last few years. There are of course more Armenians so there are more chances probably for those 70,000 people to speak Armenian at home and at social functions, but my guide in 2013 spoke five languages (Turkish, German, English, Greek, and Armenian), and he learned Armenian last even though his dad was Armenian and he was raised Oriental Orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox like his Greek mom. He was a great guy and I'd recommend his tour company to anyone who goes and doesn't want to go to Istanbul on their own--Arman Masoglou was his name.

Offline Sethrak

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2019, 08:06:57 PM »
Dominika ~ Yes I did hear the Sharagans sung ``` (my parents spoke turkish ) and Yes there are Christian that speak Turkish ~ they had to ~ I was referring to the " Orthodox Turkish Church" ~ they are not Orthodox ~ it was formed by the Turk government and no influence of the Greeks Christians was permitted the Greek Orthodox churches were taken and non Christian Turks were put in place of Christian Bishops ~ Greek, Armenian, Asyrian Clergy were killed and others ~ the Church property was taken ~ these Christians were like in reform school ```

Yes I did hear the Sharagans sung ~ these people are in a Christian country ~ Sweden wasn't it ~ they survived and left for Europe ```
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 08:12:11 PM by Sethrak »
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.

Offline Dominika

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Re: O Lord of Hosts in Turkish
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2019, 04:24:53 AM »
BTW videos both from YouTube and Facebook have disappeared  :(

The new link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_knegQs-h80
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