Author Topic: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing  (Read 654 times)

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Offline scamandrius

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My priest has a habit of saying the Paschal greeting, Christ is Risen while he is censing the church during the chanting of the Cherubimic Hymn, the 9th ode of the Canon and the opening troparia of Orthros ( O Lord, save thy people...) and the people, of course, respond. He does this at no other part of the year and it just seems awkward since it dstracts from the hymns being sung.  There are plenty of other places to say and sing  Christ is Risen but this seems unnecessary.  Any other priests do this?

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2016, 09:20:53 PM »
This priest seems to really be grinding your gears. You want us to kill him for you?

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2016, 09:23:19 PM »
This priest seems to really be grinding your gears. You want us to kill him for you?

You're not funny. 

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2016, 10:27:58 PM »
This priest seems to really be grinding your gears. You want us to kill him for you?

You're not funny.

I laughed. 
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Mor suffers from Invincible Ignorance and is guaranteed salvation according to the Roman Catholic Church.

Offline BrotherBoris

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2016, 11:03:45 PM »
Just indulge your priest and say "Indeed He is risen!" when he does this, and be done with it.  My priest does quirky things too sometimes and I've learned just to humor him, accept it and move on with it.  It isn't worth an argument or letting it get under your skin. Remember, not all battles are worth fighting.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 11:04:40 PM by BrotherBoris »

Offline Aram

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2016, 11:16:26 PM »
Isn't this proper for the period between Easter and Pentecost? Hence, why your priest does this now, and not the rest of the year.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2016, 03:52:14 AM »
Just indulge your priest and say "Indeed He is risen!" when he does this, and be done with it.  My priest does quirky things too sometimes and I've learned just to humor him, accept it and move on with it.  It isn't worth an argument or letting it get under your skin. Remember, not all battles are worth fighting.

I can't as I am chanting the hymns as this is happening.  I'm not going to tell him I think he should stop, but it does seem an unnecessary distraction.

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2016, 03:57:06 AM »
This priest seems to really be grinding your gears. You want us to kill him for you?

You're not funny.

I laughed.

Of course you did. I often laugh at the mere insinuation, playful as it is (and I'm giving what's-his-name the benefit of the doubt on that) at the killing of others.  So, I guess you're just as sick and twisted as everyone else here.



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« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 04:29:20 AM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2016, 03:59:12 AM »
Isn't this proper for the period between Easter and Pentecost? Hence, why your priest does this now, and not the rest of the year.

Why not say "Christ is Born" while he censes during the Nativity season or "Christ is ascended" during ascension at the same times?

Offline Musashi

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2016, 04:06:46 AM »
My priest has a habit of saying the Paschal greeting, Christ is Risen while he is censing the church during the chanting of the Cherubimic Hymn, the 9th ode of the Canon and the opening troparia of Orthros ( O Lord, save thy people...) and the people, of course, respond. He does this at no other part of the year and it just seems awkward since it dstracts from the hymns being sung.  There are plenty of other places to say and sing  Christ is Risen but this seems unnecessary.  Any other priests do this?

My priest used to say paschal greeting before homily and after dismissal then chant the Paschal troparion three times. I have no experience attending another Orhtodox church except in Japan.
But if my priest do this, may be it will distract the hymns being sung because most people in the church sing all the hymns in liturgy.
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Offline Gamliel

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2016, 10:43:38 AM »
My priest does not.  We sing the song at the beginning of Liturgy, during the Small Entrance, and after the Eucharist.
I believe we are supposed to be imitating the songs of the Cherubim during the hymn, so  could your priest be thinking that the angels are also saying "Christ is risen" in heaven?  The LORD is worthy of much honor on account of what He did.

Offline CarolS

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2016, 12:15:30 PM »
My priest has a habit of saying the Paschal greeting, Christ is Risen while he is censing the church during the chanting of the Cherubimic Hymn, the 9th ode of the Canon and the opening troparia of Orthros ( O Lord, save thy people...) and the people, of course, respond. He does this at no other part of the year and it just seems awkward since it dstracts from the hymns being sung.  There are plenty of other places to say and sing  Christ is Risen but this seems unnecessary.  Any other priests do this?
I have never seen this, outside of singing Christ is risen at the prescribed times during the Pascal season, and of course during the censings during the canon on Pascha.
If you are chanting, even on Pascha, you should not interrupt your singing to respond, leave that for the rest of the laity, and not break the thread of the hymns.

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2016, 12:32:03 PM »
This priest seems to really be grinding your gears. You want us to kill him for you?

You're not funny.

I laughed.

Of course you did. I often laugh at the mere insinuation, playful as it is (and I'm giving what's-his-name the benefit of the doubt on that) at the killing of others.  So, I guess you're just as sick and twisted as everyone else here.


If you spent less time being offended by things and more time trying to learn, you might have realised that the practice you describe in the OP is, generally, more common among Slavs.     
Mor has an open appeal. This we knew already.

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2016, 12:48:37 PM »

During Pascha...every time the priest came out to cense the icons and people...he would yell out Christ is Risen!  Usually, however, he would stop in the middle and wait for the choir to finish first.

Now...in the Paschal season....he only declares Christ is Risen...singing it at the start of Liturgy...and then declaring it at the very end after the dismal hymn has been sung.
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2016, 07:33:09 PM »
My priest has a habit of saying the Paschal greeting, Christ is Risen while he is censing the church during the chanting of the Cherubimic Hymn, the 9th ode of the Canon and the opening troparia of Orthros ( O Lord, save thy people...) and the people, of course, respond. He does this at no other part of the year and it just seems awkward since it dstracts from the hymns being sung.  There are plenty of other places to say and sing  Christ is Risen but this seems unnecessary.  Any other priests do this?
That's what priest do here, in Poland. And if I recall correctly, in Serbia too.

As for other feasts, the ocassional greetins are said during the anointment during the vigil, kissing the cross after the Liturgy, the parish announcments etc.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2016, 08:20:08 PM »
This priest seems to really be grinding your gears. You want us to kill him for you?

You're not funny.

I laughed.

Of course you did. I often laugh at the mere insinuation, playful as it is (and I'm giving what's-his-name the benefit of the doubt on that) at the killing of others.  So, I guess you're just as sick and twisted as everyone else here.


If you spent less time being offended by things and more time trying to learn, you might have realised that the practice you describe in the OP is, generally, more common among Slavs.   

I'm not offended, more annoyed. It's a disruption to the service.  Secondly, I asked if any priests did this.  That's how you learn: by asking.  Now, I know that knowledge comes to you directly from your eternal communion with God, but some of us still need to do learn things the old fashioned way. 

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2016, 11:29:20 PM »
This priest seems to really be grinding your gears. You want us to kill him for you?

You're not funny.

I laughed.

Of course you did. I often laugh at the mere insinuation, playful as it is (and I'm giving what's-his-name the benefit of the doubt on that) at the killing of others.  So, I guess you're just as sick and twisted as everyone else here.


If you spent less time being offended by things and more time trying to learn, you might have realised that the practice you describe in the OP is, generally, more common among Slavs.   

I'm not offended, more annoyed. It's a disruption to the service.  Secondly, I asked if any priests did this.  That's how you learn: by asking.  Now, I know that knowledge comes to you directly from your eternal communion with God, but some of us still need to do learn things the old fashioned way.

I suppose it could be seen as a disruption, sure.  Then again, wherever I've seen this practiced, the people enthusiastically respond (I've certainly never heard anyone complain about it).  There isn't a lot of vocal congregational participation in EO liturgy in American parishes and monasteries.  Being able to respond "Truly he is risen!" during liturgical services is a notable departure from such passive worship, and may make Paschaltide an especially beloved liturgical season for people who feel like it is their annual chance to contribute to the corporate worship.  It may also provide a bit of a "holy distraction" in parishes where the liturgical language is not comprehensible to the parishioners or where the singing of the choir/chanters is of a poor or otherwise unedifying quality, as may be the case in your own church.
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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2016, 12:24:37 AM »
My priest does the same, every time he censes the whole church during vespers or the 9th ode at orthros. If I'm chanting or singing, I just continue on as normal. If I happen to be just standing in the choir as another chanter is taking the lead, I'll respond. I've been to enough parishes of various jurisdictions (and been at enough services where the priest might be traveling and a priest of another jurisdiction is filling in) that I've learned to roll with most anything.
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Offline immerlein

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2016, 02:20:25 AM »
My priest does this too. I'm so full of joy every time I hear it though, that I never thought anything of it.

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2016, 03:02:39 AM »
This priest seems to really be grinding your gears. You want us to kill him for you?

You're not funny.

I laughed.

Of course you did. I often laugh at the mere insinuation, playful as it is (and I'm giving what's-his-name the benefit of the doubt on that) at the killing of others.  So, I guess you're just as sick and twisted as everyone else here.


If you spent less time being offended by things and more time trying to learn, you might have realised that the practice you describe in the OP is, generally, more common among Slavs.   

I'm not offended, more annoyed. It's a disruption to the service. 
If you think that's a disruption, you would hate Greek Holy Saturday morning.

Next time, abruptly stop chanting and shout back.

Something like:
"Wait your turn!"
"Use your inside voice!"
"Αληθώς ανέστη ο Κύριος!"
"We're yelling!"
"Do you kiss your bishop's hand with that mouth?"
"If I had a nickle for every time you said that...!"
"There are children in here!"
"My man!"
"This church ain't big enough for the two of us!"
"Hit the road!"
"You can say that again!"

PM me for more. It's these kinds of responses which get you promoted from subpsaltis to protopsaltis.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 03:29:18 AM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Alkis

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2016, 03:37:02 AM »
Our priest says this sometimes after the end of an hymn and all the people respond. And then the liturgy goes on... It is not bad. I am happy for this.
I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek Your servant, For I do not forget Your commandments. (Psalm 118:176)

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2016, 09:14:33 AM »
This priest seems to really be grinding your gears. You want us to kill him for you?

You're not funny.

I laughed.

Of course you did. I often laugh at the mere insinuation, playful as it is (and I'm giving what's-his-name the benefit of the doubt on that) at the killing of others.  So, I guess you're just as sick and twisted as everyone else here.


If you spent less time being offended by things and more time trying to learn, you might have realised that the practice you describe in the OP is, generally, more common among Slavs.   

I'm not offended, more annoyed. It's a disruption to the service.  Secondly, I asked if any priests did this.  That's how you learn: by asking.  Now, I know that knowledge comes to you directly from your eternal communion with God, but some of us still need to do learn things the old fashioned way.

I suppose it could be seen as a disruption, sure.  Then again, wherever I've seen this practiced, the people enthusiastically respond (I've certainly never heard anyone complain about it).  There isn't a lot of vocal congregational participation in EO liturgy in American parishes and monasteries.  Being able to respond "Truly he is risen!" during liturgical services is a notable departure from such passive worship, and may make Paschaltide an especially beloved liturgical season for people who feel like it is their annual chance to contribute to the corporate worship.  It may also provide a bit of a "holy distraction" in parishes where the liturgical language is not comprehensible to the parishioners or where the singing of the choir/chanters is of a poor or otherwise unedifying quality, as may be the case in your own church.

I've heard this argument before:  that people cannot participate.  I find that to be bunk.  What are they supposed to be doing?  Praying. Is that not participation?  And is that not active?  Or is only singing the same thing as the chanters and choir considered participation?  Considering how musically illiterate most Americans are in anything,  that's a good thing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2016, 12:46:22 PM »
I suppose it could be seen as a disruption, sure.  Then again, wherever I've seen this practiced, the people enthusiastically respond (I've certainly never heard anyone complain about it).  There isn't a lot of vocal congregational participation in EO liturgy in American parishes and monasteries.  Being able to respond "Truly he is risen!" during liturgical services is a notable departure from such passive worship, and may make Paschaltide an especially beloved liturgical season for people who feel like it is their annual chance to contribute to the corporate worship.  It may also provide a bit of a "holy distraction" in parishes where the liturgical language is not comprehensible to the parishioners or where the singing of the choir/chanters is of a poor or otherwise unedifying quality, as may be the case in your own church.

I've heard this argument before:  that people cannot participate.  I find that to be bunk.  What are they supposed to be doing?  Praying. Is that not participation?  And is that not active?  Or is only singing the same thing as the chanters and choir considered participation?  Considering how musically illiterate most Americans are in anything,  that's a good thing.

Your fundamental error is in distinguishing "singing the same thing as the chanters and choir" from the "praying" that is proper to the congregation.  Yes, the congregation is to pray during the Liturgy, and that prayer is active, but the prayer they are supposed to be praying is the Liturgy.  The liturgical texts sung by the chanters/choir provide ample proof for this.

If anything is bunk, it's the argument that people are too musically illiterate to sing.  It's not bunk because it's not true--it very well may be.  It's bunk because the Liturgy is not a concert, no matter how much chanters/choirs may wish to make it so.  When we celebrate the Liturgy, there are all sorts of imperfections.  Sometimes the bread is not as well made as it is at other times.  Not all wines are equal.  Sometimes we have lots of people, sometimes very few.  Sometimes we can do a fuller service, and sometimes we need to adapt.  And we are never as worthy to offer ourselves to God as we should want to be.  But in all cases, even if it's not the best we wish we could offer, it is the best we can offer in that moment.  Imperfect singing may also be one of those best-we-can-offer-here-and-now offerings made to and accepted by God, who in turn helps the people to sing less imperfectly the more they sing, just as he who wishes to pray well must start by praying something at all.     

As long as you continue to believe that the job of chanters/choirs is to help the priest perform the holy drama that serves as edifying background noise for the people's private prayer which has little to do with that holy drama, you will continue to be deluded when it comes to Orthodox teaching on liturgical prayer, and that delusion will negatively affect your liturgical service even more than it may already be, not to mention the negative effect it will have on your understanding and practice of the Orthodox faith. 
Mor has an open appeal. This we knew already.

Mor suffers from Invincible Ignorance and is guaranteed salvation according to the Roman Catholic Church.

Offline Father H

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2016, 12:15:03 AM »
I suppose it could be seen as a disruption, sure.  Then again, wherever I've seen this practiced, the people enthusiastically respond (I've certainly never heard anyone complain about it).  There isn't a lot of vocal congregational participation in EO liturgy in American parishes and monasteries.  Being able to respond "Truly he is risen!" during liturgical services is a notable departure from such passive worship, and may make Paschaltide an especially beloved liturgical season for people who feel like it is their annual chance to contribute to the corporate worship.  It may also provide a bit of a "holy distraction" in parishes where the liturgical language is not comprehensible to the parishioners or where the singing of the choir/chanters is of a poor or otherwise unedifying quality, as may be the case in your own church.

I've heard this argument before:  that people cannot participate.  I find that to be bunk.  What are they supposed to be doing?  Praying. Is that not participation?  And is that not active?  Or is only singing the same thing as the chanters and choir considered participation?  Considering how musically illiterate most Americans are in anything,  that's a good thing.

Your fundamental error is in distinguishing "singing the same thing as the chanters and choir" from the "praying" that is proper to the congregation.  Yes, the congregation is to pray during the Liturgy, and that prayer is active, but the prayer they are supposed to be praying is the Liturgy.  The liturgical texts sung by the chanters/choir provide ample proof for this.

If anything is bunk, it's the argument that people are too musically illiterate to sing.  It's not bunk because it's not true--it very well may be.  It's bunk because the Liturgy is not a concert, no matter how much chanters/choirs may wish to make it so.  When we celebrate the Liturgy, there are all sorts of imperfections.  Sometimes the bread is not as well made as it is at other times.  Not all wines are equal.  Sometimes we have lots of people, sometimes very few.  Sometimes we can do a fuller service, and sometimes we need to adapt.  And we are never as worthy to offer ourselves to God as we should want to be.  But in all cases, even if it's not the best we wish we could offer, it is the best we can offer in that moment.  Imperfect singing may also be one of those best-we-can-offer-here-and-now offerings made to and accepted by God, who in turn helps the people to sing less imperfectly the more they sing, just as he who wishes to pray well must start by praying something at all.     

As long as you continue to believe that the job of chanters/choirs is to help the priest perform the holy drama that serves as edifying background noise for the people's private prayer which has little to do with that holy drama, you will continue to be deluded when it comes to Orthodox teaching on liturgical prayer, and that delusion will negatively affect your liturgical service even more than it may already be, not to mention the negative effect it will have on your understanding and practice of the Orthodox faith.

I rarely log in any more but this one was worth it, since Mor Ephrem has hit the nail on the head in this whole thread. 

Saying "Christ is Risen" throughout Paschaltide when censing is a Slavic tradition, but not restricted to Slavs.  It is common to see it in parishes of ACROD, OCA, and UOCUSA, but not in all parishes (some just do Pascha/Bright Week), and one will find it in the "old country" quite frequently.  It is also not foreign to the Antiochians, even in Lebanon and Syria. 

The point is that this message, that Christ is Risen, permeates and summarizes the entire season.  One will also see, in the seasons, "Christ is Born" or "Christ is Baptized" or "Christ is Ascended" or "Christ is in our midst" (which originally was the Pentecost greeting, but now adopted throughout the year in the kiss of peace) as well.   Some even do "Christ is transfigured" with the response "on the mount" at transfiguration.  But "Christ is Risen" is a beaming message that surpasses all others in the Paschal season.   Its exclamation shows that it is the very single thing that gives all the rest of it meaning.  It gives joy to the faithful, even if it gives irritation to some of the chanters. 

Frankly, it is far less of an irritating interruption than the choir perpetually interrupting the anaphora prayers.   

             
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 12:18:08 AM by Father H »

Offline William T

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2016, 12:41:08 AM »
I suppose it could be seen as a disruption, sure.  Then again, wherever I've seen this practiced, the people enthusiastically respond (I've certainly never heard anyone complain about it).  There isn't a lot of vocal congregational participation in EO liturgy in American parishes and monasteries.  Being able to respond "Truly he is risen!" during liturgical services is a notable departure from such passive worship, and may make Paschaltide an especially beloved liturgical season for people who feel like it is their annual chance to contribute to the corporate worship.  It may also provide a bit of a "holy distraction" in parishes where the liturgical language is not comprehensible to the parishioners or where the singing of the choir/chanters is of a poor or otherwise unedifying quality, as may be the case in your own church.

I've heard this argument before:  that people cannot participate.  I find that to be bunk.  What are they supposed to be doing?  Praying. Is that not participation?  And is that not active?  Or is only singing the same thing as the chanters and choir considered participation?  Considering how musically illiterate most Americans are in anything,  that's a good thing.

Your fundamental error is in distinguishing "singing the same thing as the chanters and choir" from the "praying" that is proper to the congregation.  Yes, the congregation is to pray during the Liturgy, and that prayer is active, but the prayer they are supposed to be praying is the Liturgy.  The liturgical texts sung by the chanters/choir provide ample proof for this.

If anything is bunk, it's the argument that people are too musically illiterate to sing.  It's not bunk because it's not true--it very well may be.  It's bunk because the Liturgy is not a concert, no matter how much chanters/choirs may wish to make it so.  When we celebrate the Liturgy, there are all sorts of imperfections.  Sometimes the bread is not as well made as it is at other times.  Not all wines are equal.  Sometimes we have lots of people, sometimes very few.  Sometimes we can do a fuller service, and sometimes we need to adapt.  And we are never as worthy to offer ourselves to God as we should want to be.  But in all cases, even if it's not the best we wish we could offer, it is the best we can offer in that moment.  Imperfect singing may also be one of those best-we-can-offer-here-and-now offerings made to and accepted by God, who in turn helps the people to sing less imperfectly the more they sing, just as he who wishes to pray well must start by praying something at all.     

As long as you continue to believe that the job of chanters/choirs is to help the priest perform the holy drama that serves as edifying background noise for the people's private prayer which has little to do with that holy drama, you will continue to be deluded when it comes to Orthodox teaching on liturgical prayer, and that delusion will negatively affect your liturgical service even more than it may already be, not to mention the negative effect it will have on your understanding and practice of the Orthodox faith.

Well said.  It's hard to imagine how a "Christ is Risen" proclamation thrown in when a priest gets the chance to can be seen as a distraction.
Christ is risen!  Le Christ est ressuscité!  Masīḥ qām!   Χριστὸς ἀνέστη!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2016, 01:10:15 AM »
The point is that this message, that Christ is Risen, permeates and summarizes the entire season.  One will also see, in the seasons, "Christ is Born" or "Christ is Baptized" or "Christ is Ascended" or "Christ is in our midst" (which originally was the Pentecost greeting, but now adopted throughout the year in the kiss of peace) as well.   Some even do "Christ is transfigured" with the response "on the mount" at transfiguration.  But "Christ is Risen" is a beaming message that surpasses all others in the Paschal season.   Its exclamation shows that it is the very single thing that gives all the rest of it meaning.  It gives joy to the faithful, even if it gives irritation to some of the chanters. 

Father H makes a point which I neglected to make; namely, that the Paschal greeting itself can also be understood as a kind of prayer.  It is a fundamental confession of faith, and the joy with which many proclaim it and respond to it may make it among the most genuine "praises" and "thanksgivings" people offer to God (in the sense that it genuinely wells up within and overflows from them in a way that "A mercy of peace, a sacrifice of praise" may not). 

We may rightly hope that the prayers of the Liturgy will be prayed with the same fervour, and we should work to get ourselves and others to that point, but that doesn't mean we have to poo-poo something that does work. 
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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2016, 01:29:56 PM »
The point is that this message, that Christ is Risen, permeates and summarizes the entire season.  One will also see, in the seasons, "Christ is Born" or "Christ is Baptized" or "Christ is Ascended" or "Christ is in our midst" (which originally was the Pentecost greeting, but now adopted throughout the year in the kiss of peace) as well.   Some even do "Christ is transfigured" with the response "on the mount" at transfiguration.  But "Christ is Risen" is a beaming message that surpasses all others in the Paschal season.   Its exclamation shows that it is the very single thing that gives all the rest of it meaning.  It gives joy to the faithful, even if it gives irritation to some of the chanters. 

Father H makes a point which I neglected to make; namely, that the Paschal greeting itself can also be understood as a kind of prayer.  It is a fundamental confession of faith, and the joy with which many proclaim it and respond to it may make it among the most genuine "praises" and "thanksgivings" people offer to God (in the sense that it genuinely wells up within and overflows from them in a way that "A mercy of peace, a sacrifice of praise" may not). 

We may rightly hope that the prayers of the Liturgy will be prayed with the same fervour, and we should work to get ourselves and others to that point, but that doesn't mean we have to poo-poo something that does work.

It is a prayer; that is not the issue.  Do some prayers then trump others?  Should the 9th Ode of the Canon be stopped so everyone can join in the exultation of "Christ is Risen?"  This isn't about poo-pooing "Christ is Risen" as it is said/chanted many times during hte Liturgy, where there is a place for it.  Why is it considered bad for Liturgy to proceed in good order so that the people would be edified.  I'm not saying you advocate for some sort of free-for-all during Liturgy, but I fail to see how the order and dignity of the Holy Liturgy be maintained with random shouts of the Paschal Liturgy during the chanting/praying of the hymns. 

And, by the way,  I stand by my comment about people being musically illiterate.  They are.  that is no delusion.  People don't know the difference between a major and minor scale so how the hell do you expect them to be able to chant in the modal system  which is almost a foreign musical language to their ears?  IF people want to learn, great; I'm all for that. But most people don't and believe they have every right to sing even if it's totally off.  That IS distraction.  Why is a demand for good order somehow considered anathema?  I've had bishops stop chanters when they were chanting in the wrong modes or just chanting poorly.  Would you reprimand them?  Why is good order all of a sudden a bogeyman to be feared?

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2016, 01:48:32 PM »
The problem is not 'good order'


The problem is that you want it to be Your Order, and how You in particular see it.

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2016, 02:30:43 PM »
It is a prayer; that is not the issue.  Do some prayers then trump others?  Should the 9th Ode of the Canon be stopped so everyone can join in the exultation of "Christ is Risen?" 

If the congregation was singing the 9th ode of the canon, no.  If the congregation stands there like a bunch of mutes while a few people at a chanters' stand are singing the 9th ode of the canon, their response to the greeting might just be what keeps them engaged in the worship.  If chanters can't ignore that and continue chanting, maybe the problem is with them.  Priests and deacons are constantly praying one thing while chanters/choir are singing something else and while the congregation is chit-chatting, quieting noisy children, etc.  They have to learn to ignore what other people are doing so they can focus on doing what they're supposed to do.  What makes chanters special?  It's not easy, but it's part of the job. 

Quote
This isn't about poo-pooing "Christ is Risen" as it is said/chanted many times during hte Liturgy, where there is a place for it.  Why is it considered bad for Liturgy to proceed in good order so that the people would be edified.  I'm not saying you advocate for some sort of free-for-all during Liturgy, but I fail to see how the order and dignity of the Holy Liturgy be maintained with random shouts of the Paschal Liturgy during the chanting/praying of the hymns.


I grew up without this practice, and my exposure to it has been very limited.  I always find it a little distracting, and if it were up to me, I wouldn't do it.  But I can appreciate how it "works" in other traditions. 

You named two or three moments in a ~3hr service in which these "random shouts" take place.  The moments themselves amount to no more than twenty minutes of that hours long service, and I highly doubt that the priest and people are constantly shouting "Christ is risen, truly he is risen!!" for each of those twenty minutes.  Are you sure this is really the problem you think it is? 

Quote
And, by the way,  I stand by my comment about people being musically illiterate.  They are.  that is no delusion.  People don't know the difference between a major and minor scale so how the hell do you expect them to be able to chant in the modal system  which is almost a foreign musical language to their ears? 

If the modal system has managed to hijack the prayer of the whole Church from the whole Church and turn it into some sort of off-Broadway musical performed by specialists, maybe we need to rethink the modal system. 

Of course, I don't think that's the proper solution, but that's the proper logic. 

Quote
IF people want to learn, great; I'm all for that. But most people don't and believe they have every right to sing even if it's totally off.  That IS distraction. 

God can handle it.  And the Liturgy is for God in the first place.

The people have the right to sing.  Actually, they have the obligation to sing in the sense that they have the obligation to pray what's being prayed so that they can exercise their baptismal priesthood.  They're not just a bunch of candle-lighting icon smoochers who we need to keep around in order to pay the bills.       

Quote
Why is a demand for good order somehow considered anathema?  I've had bishops stop chanters when they were chanting in the wrong modes or just chanting poorly.  Would you reprimand them?  Why is good order all of a sudden a bogeyman to be feared?

I wouldn't reprimand the bishop in that case because it's the job of chanters to chant well.  But if a bishop stopped the congregation from singing because he didn't think they sounded good enough, yes, I would be more likely to criticise that.  I would want more details, obviously, but I find that to be a bigger problem than insisting that chanters know how to chant.  I expect a priest to know how to celebrate the Liturgy and I expect chanters/choirs to know how to sing well.  I've seen enough sloppiness from both priests and chanters to give most congregations a pass when it comes to their lack of Capella Romana quality singing. 
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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2016, 04:56:43 PM »
The problem is not 'good order'


The problem is that you want it to be Your Order, and how You in particular see it.

The problem is good order or the lack of it.

Let's look at this another way.  Should the almost incessant conversations going on between parishioners during the Liturgy continue or should we just stay silent because good order is something to be avoided?

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2016, 05:00:48 PM »
 

You named two or three moments in a ~3hr service in which these "random shouts" take place.  The moments themselves amount to no more than twenty minutes of that hours long service, and I highly doubt that the priest and people are constantly shouting "Christ is risen, truly he is risen!!" for each of those twenty minutes.  Are you sure this is really the problem you think it is? 

So, if the amount of time were to rise to 30 minutes, would it be a problem then?  It's either wrong or it's not.  The passage of time should not be the issue.



If the modal system has managed to hijack the prayer of the whole Church from the whole Church and turn it into some sort of off-Broadway musical performed by specialists, maybe we need to rethink the modal system. 

Of course, I don't think that's the proper solution, but that's the proper logic. 

You're always the one talking about the need to educate people.  Why not educate them in this?  Why should the chanting of the church be a victim to the personal tastes and whims of parishioners who fail to understand the Byzantine modal system?

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2016, 07:21:44 PM »
The problem is not 'good order'


The problem is that you want it to be Your Order, and how You in particular see it.

The problem is good order or the lack of it.

Let's look at this another way.  Should the almost incessant conversations going on between parishioners during the Liturgy continue or should we just stay silent because good order is something to be avoided?


False Analogy

Those who converse during the DL should be quiet, and if told to do so, generally do, particularly if a member of clergy (from readers upwards, tell them). Seeing as the church members are in obedience to that clergy and the Bishop above them.....

What you are suggesting is that the Priest, decide what should be done based on your displeasure or pleasure at how it is. 
Thats putting the Chanter above the Priest.

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Re: Priest saying Christ is Risen to the congregation while censing
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2016, 08:49:24 PM »
 

You named two or three moments in a ~3hr service in which these "random shouts" take place.  The moments themselves amount to no more than twenty minutes of that hours long service, and I highly doubt that the priest and people are constantly shouting "Christ is risen, truly he is risen!!" for each of those twenty minutes.  Are you sure this is really the problem you think it is? 

So, if the amount of time were to rise to 30 minutes, would it be a problem then?  It's either wrong or it's not.  The passage of time should not be the issue.

That wasn't my point.  I was trying to give you some perspective. 

The practice you describe is an accepted practice in a number of EO jurisdictions in America as well as their mother Churches (including, if Fr H is to be believed, your own).  Those places and the communities found therein have been Orthodox many times longer than either your lifespan (total or Orthodox) or that of your parish.  I'm not sure the question is a matter of "right or wrong".  You need to ask why all these different communities share this practice that you detest and why they persist when many other things have fallen away.  They clearly serve a need. 

We can find a lot of things which, strictly speaking, are not correct or ideal but which happen anyway.  Why not protest, for example, the importation of the Unction service into Holy Week in your tradition, or the serving of Small Compline on Lenten Fridays rather than the Great Compline prescribed in the Typikon?  There are probably other "Greek" traditions which are much more widespread and much more accepted even though they are arguably more disruptive to the liturgical and sacramental order of the Church.  But they exist because they serve a need.  Because you're used to it, you take them for granted and do not protest them with the vehemence with which you are protesting a three second greeting.  It makes no sense.  You're thinking about things in a rather backwards way. 

Quote


If the modal system has managed to hijack the prayer of the whole Church from the whole Church and turn it into some sort of off-Broadway musical performed by specialists, maybe we need to rethink the modal system. 

Of course, I don't think that's the proper solution, but that's the proper logic. 

You're always the one talking about the need to educate people.  Why not educate them in this?  Why should the chanting of the church be a victim to the personal tastes and whims of parishioners who fail to understand the Byzantine modal system?

Because the Church is not "clergy and professional musicians".  The Church is the baptised, among whom are clerics, musicians, and those parishioners you look down on. 

Again, your primary mistake is in thinking that people who have no musical talent have no right to sing.  You forget that what you are singing belongs to them as much as it does to you.  It belongs to the baptised. 

If people do not know the music, why not teach them the music?  If they can't execute everything perfectly, at least teach them what they can learn.  You don't have to be a trained musician to sing everything.  Some things can be picked up through exposure and repetition.  What you are asking me to teach them is that they should not even bother because the music is too good for them to ruin, and so we should leave it to experts. 

If children are learning how to read and make mistakes along the way, do you encourage them to keep trying and be patient with themselves while showing them the proper way, or do you complain that people without PhD's in English literature shouldn't even bother trying to read?  It makes no sense.  You've got a lot of things backwards.
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