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Author Topic: Is Christ's Human Nature Created?  (Read 1435 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 25, 2011, 06:00:31 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2011, 06:07:49 PM »

Yes. How can you have uncreated humanity? The Virgin Mary is a creature. The human body and soul Christ God received from her was created. As a hypostasis, he is the God-man, fully God, fully man.
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2011, 06:16:41 PM »


I believe...

"...who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;"

Christ's human body was born of the Virgin. 

Asking questions is never a heresy.  It's a sign of an intelligent and curious mind.

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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 12:43:17 AM »

So where do things start getting fuzzy and delving into Nestorianism, monophysitism and other incarnational heresies? What are inappropriate statements to make about Christ's divine and human natures? (Yes, the OO can skip over this with the whole "number of natures" thing. I'm looking for the EO perspective.)
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 01:39:58 AM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2011, 01:41:20 AM »

So where do things start getting fuzzy and delving into Nestorianism, monophysitism and other incarnational heresies? What are inappropriate statements to make about Christ's divine and human natures? (Yes, the OO can skip over this with the whole "number of natures" thing. I'm looking for the EO perspective.)
Statements like what?
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2011, 01:48:02 AM »

Christ's humanity is a created element. The Apollinarists taught that the flesh of Christ was from heaven and that God the Son had it from eternity. This heresy was condemned at Constantinople I in 381 by the three Cappadocian Fathers. If you would like a document comparing Orthodox Christology with heretical Apollinarianism read these letters of St Gregory the Theologian here. Often times people tread into Christological heresies by either emphasizing the unity of the two natures too much or emphasizing their distinction too much.
Some heretical Christologies undermine the Lord's humanity in an attempt to preserve the oneness of Christ (e.g. Eutychianism, Apollinarianism, etc.).

Some heretical christologies emphasize the distinction so much that they practically divide Christ in two. Both these types of heresies undermine our salvation. The Fathers say that Christ's divinity and humanity couldn't have "mixed" to form a new/third nature neither could have the humanity been incomplete. The purpose of Christ's incarnation is to heal human nature, so if Christ's humanity lacked anything of ours he could not have fully renewed our nature. St Gregory the Theologian says:

"If anyone has put his trust in Him as a Man without a human mind, he is really bereft of mind, and quite unworthy of salvation. For that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. If only half Adam fell, then that which Christ assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it must be united to the whole nature of Him that was begotten, and so be saved as a whole. Let them not, then, begrudge us our complete salvation, or clothe the Saviour only with bones and nerves and the portraiture of humanity. For if His Manhood is without soul, even the Arians admit this, that they may attribute His Passion to the Godhead, as that which gives motion to the body is also that which suffers."

Regarding the Nestorian heresy, St Cyril says that Christ has to be one or our salvation is divided and jeopardized:

"[Nestorianism basically teaches that] our faith is in a man and not in Him Who is both by Nature and truly Son of God. For if he is true who says that he obtained the sonship by grace, he will be counted among the multitude of sons, i. e., ourselves, to whom the grace that is from above gives the sonship whereto we were called through Jesus Christ Who is forth of the seed of David according to the flesh. And the Divine Evangelist will assure thee, saying, But they who received Him He gave them authority to become the sons of God, to them that believe on His Name. Then how does he who has obtained the rank of sonship given him by another, avail to give us too a grace not his but acquired and from without?"

For one to confess an Orthodox Christology he/she must confess God the Word Incarnate to be of a perfect humanity and perfect divinity, united in one hypostasis where God the Word is the subject of the incarnation, NOT a man apart from God.
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 03:17:39 AM »

So where do things start getting fuzzy and delving into Nestorianism, monophysitism and other incarnational heresies?

Nestorianism mistakenly taught that Jesus' human nature would have to possess a human subject, each nature (divine and human) having a subject of its own. 

Monophysitism was developed in response and reaction to Nestorianism and mistakenly taught that it would be impossible for the one divine subject to have a separate human nature. This is why Eutyches argued that Jesus' divine nature dominated, absorbed and finally destroyed His human nature.

In short, almost all Christological heresies were born of some teachers' zeal to make an equation between Jesus' subject and natures. (Nestorianism = two natures necessitate two subjects, Monophysitism = one subject necessitates one nature)
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2011, 12:39:19 AM »

With respect to the overall being of the Incarnate Word, no, it is not appropriate to say that He was created, as He was before His flesh.

But, it is accurate to say that His flesh was created, as He took is from a created being (Mary).

Furthermore, He must have had a created human soul for Apollinarianism not to be true.

So yes, His human nature was created.
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 12:42:57 AM »

a separate human nature

That is a heresy.
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 02:13:51 PM »

a separate human nature

That is a heresy.

Depends on how you define "separate." There is no mixture or confusion of the natures, so one can speak of separation in that way, I think, but not if it implies a hypostatic disunity. Or so it seems to me. One person from two natures, one person in two natures, either way you need the word "separate" in some sense.
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2011, 02:31:02 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2011, 02:38:56 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

Perturbed by paradoxes?
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2011, 02:42:27 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

Perturbed by paradoxes?

Nope. Most EOs seems to be, because they would say God doesn't change. Again Platonism over Scripture.

I think there is a wonderful thread of thought that follows these lines, but again for the 100th time the EOs I've spoken with and see on here will usually come down on the Platonic side of their Theology and ignore the witness of Scripture and Patristics that speak to the Living God.

I'm reconciled to both. Most EOs would say God can't change and leave it at that.

They would be wrong.
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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2011, 03:09:26 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

sounds like a change in humanity, not divinity
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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2011, 03:13:21 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

Perturbed by paradoxes?

Nope. Most EOs seems to be, because they would say God doesn't change. Again Platonism over Scripture.

I think there is a wonderful thread of thought that follows these lines, but again for the 100th time the EOs I've spoken with and see on here will usually come down on the Platonic side of their Theology and ignore the witness of Scripture and Patristics that speak to the Living God.

I'm reconciled to both. Most EOs would say God can't change and leave it at that.

They would be wrong.


Patristics on the topic:

God the Word full by nature and in every way Perfect, and distributing out of His own Fullness His own goods to the creature, we say was emptied: in no wise wronged in His own Proper Nature, nor changed so as to become otherwise, nor made in ought inferior, for inconvertible and unchangeable is Himself also even as He Who begat Him, and never may He be capable of passion. But when He was made Flesh, i.e. Man, He made (as He said, I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all flesh) the poverty of human nature His own; first, in that He was once made man, albeit He remained God; next in that He took the form of a servant, Who is in His own Nature free, as Son, and while He is Himself the Lord of glory He is said to receive glory: Himself Life, He is said to be quickened: and receives power over all, Himself King of all and with God, and Ho was obedient to the Father, suffered the Cross and so on. But these things befit the measure of the human nature, yet He makes them His own with flesh and fulfils the economy, remaining what He was. - St Cyril of Alexandria, Scholia on the incarnation of the Only-Begotten, Ch. 5

Emphasis mine.

As-Salamu alaykum! Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2011, 03:37:15 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

sounds like a change in humanity, not divinity

So human nature: flesh, mind, heart, bowels, spirit, and soul (add all other Scriptural words to basically convey human "essence") being assumed into the Trinity doesn't affect the Trinity?

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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2011, 03:38:53 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

Perturbed by paradoxes?

Nope. Most EOs seems to be, because they would say God doesn't change. Again Platonism over Scripture.

I think there is a wonderful thread of thought that follows these lines, but again for the 100th time the EOs I've spoken with and see on here will usually come down on the Platonic side of their Theology and ignore the witness of Scripture and Patristics that speak to the Living God.

I'm reconciled to both. Most EOs would say God can't change and leave it at that.

They would be wrong.


Patristics on the topic:

God the Word full by nature and in every way Perfect, and distributing out of His own Fullness His own goods to the creature, we say was emptied: in no wise wronged in His own Proper Nature, nor changed so as to become otherwise, nor made in ought inferior, for inconvertible and unchangeable is Himself also even as He Who begat Him, and never may He be capable of passion. But when He was made Flesh, i.e. Man, He made (as He said, I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all flesh) the poverty of human nature His own; first, in that He was once made man, albeit He remained God; next in that He took the form of a servant, Who is in His own Nature free, as Son, and while He is Himself the Lord of glory He is said to receive glory: Himself Life, He is said to be quickened: and receives power over all, Himself King of all and with God, and Ho was obedient to the Father, suffered the Cross and so on. But these things befit the measure of the human nature, yet He makes them His own with flesh and fulfils the economy, remaining what He was. - St Cyril of Alexandria, Scholia on the incarnation of the Only-Begotten, Ch. 5

Emphasis mine.

As-Salamu alaykum! Smiley

I'm referring to the Assumption of Christ's humanity into the Trinity (or Godhead, don't like that word, not sure what people mean when they use it, since it seems to differ).

EDIT: But I do appreciate your Patristic quotes.
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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2011, 03:41:45 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

Perturbed by paradoxes?

Nope. Most EOs seems to be, because they would say God doesn't change. Again Platonism over Scripture.

I think there is a wonderful thread of thought that follows these lines, but again for the 100th time the EOs I've spoken with and see on here will usually come down on the Platonic side of their Theology and ignore the witness of Scripture and Patristics that speak to the Living God.

I'm reconciled to both. Most EOs would say God can't change and leave it at that.

They would be wrong.


Patristics on the topic:

God the Word full by nature and in every way Perfect, and distributing out of His own Fullness His own goods to the creature, we say was emptied: in no wise wronged in His own Proper Nature, nor changed so as to become otherwise, nor made in ought inferior, for inconvertible and unchangeable is Himself also even as He Who begat Him, and never may He be capable of passion. But when He was made Flesh, i.e. Man, He made (as He said, I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all flesh) the poverty of human nature His own; first, in that He was once made man, albeit He remained God; next in that He took the form of a servant, Who is in His own Nature free, as Son, and while He is Himself the Lord of glory He is said to receive glory: Himself Life, He is said to be quickened: and receives power over all, Himself King of all and with God, and Ho was obedient to the Father, suffered the Cross and so on. But these things befit the measure of the human nature, yet He makes them His own with flesh and fulfils the economy, remaining what He was. - St Cyril of Alexandria, Scholia on the incarnation of the Only-Begotten, Ch. 5

Emphasis mine.

As-Salamu alaykum! Smiley

I'm referring to the Assumption of Christ's humanity into the Trinity (or Godhead, don't like that word, not sure what people mean when they use it, since it seems to differ).

EDIT: But I do appreciate your Patristic quotes.

I see. Smiley No problem. Cool
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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2011, 03:52:07 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

sounds like a change in humanity, not divinity

So human nature: flesh, mind, heart, bowels, spirit, and soul (add all other Scriptural words to basically convey human "essence") being assumed into the Trinity doesn't affect the Trinity?



well i guess i dont really know what you mean by "assumed into the Trinity," but how do you see the Trinity changing by Christ's hypostatic union? Did the divine nature change in some way?
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« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2011, 03:55:39 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

sounds like a change in humanity, not divinity

So human nature: flesh, mind, heart, bowels, spirit, and soul (add all other Scriptural words to basically convey human "essence") being assumed into the Trinity doesn't affect the Trinity?



Human nature only pertains the the hypostasis of the Son, not the Father nor the Spirit.
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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2011, 04:10:35 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

sounds like a change in humanity, not divinity

So human nature: flesh, mind, heart, bowels, spirit, and soul (add all other Scriptural words to basically convey human "essence") being assumed into the Trinity doesn't affect the Trinity?



well i guess i dont really know what you mean by "assumed into the Trinity," but how do you see the Trinity changing by Christ's hypostatic union? Did the divine nature change in some way?

Jesus in His Humanity exits within the Trinity.

Yes or No. Or when He Ascended did He rid Himself of His Humanity?

I am not sure how more simple I can make this.

Pre-Incarnation: No Humanity (as a person, let's not get all ontological) within the Trinity.
Post-Assumption: Humanity (specific flesh, soul, spirit, mind, bowels, etc.) assumed within the Trinity.

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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2011, 04:12:44 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

sounds like a change in humanity, not divinity

So human nature: flesh, mind, heart, bowels, spirit, and soul (add all other Scriptural words to basically convey human "essence") being assumed into the Trinity doesn't affect the Trinity?



Human nature only pertains the the hypostasis of the Son, not the Father nor the Spirit.

And He being in Communion within the Trinity and the Trinity comprising of the relations of those three Persons, one Person now has human flesh, mind, soul, spirit, etc. where as "before" He did not.

Thus a change.
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2011, 04:14:44 PM »

God the Son did not change when He became man therefore the Trinity did not change:

"The blessed Paul makes mention that the Only-Begotten Word of God took hold of Abraham's seed and also that He partook of flesh and blood as we. We remember too the voice of John, for he says, And the Word was made Flesh and dwelt in us. Was it therefore the aim of these men, being spiritual, to teach that the Word of God suffers change, or that it is right that He should undergo the mutation which belongs rather to the creature? so that that too which He was not, He should haply either come to of His own will, or another against His will drive Him into another nature? God forbid: for He remains the Same, excluding from His Nature every change, unknowing to suffer a shadow of turning: for That Supreme and Heavenly Nature is ever fixed in Its own." - St Cyril of Alexandria

"Yet if one must say somewhat, looking as in a mirror, the human mind defines that the Word was united to the Body having a reasonable soul, much as is the soul of man too to its own body, which is of other nature than it, yet obtains even thus participation and union with the body, so as to appear not other than it, in that by composition one living thing is effected out of both, it nevertheless remaining (as I mentioned before) in its own nature. Hence we say that not by mutation or change has the Word of God been made Man, nor yet that It recked not of being God (how could it be so?) " - St Cyril of Alexandria

Emphasis mine.
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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2011, 05:17:26 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?

I used to have a misconception as to the pre-existence of the Humanity of Jesus Christ but it was based upon my own misunderstanding of the process of Creation in regards to human beings.  When my fathers explained to me more directly how the Ethiopians teach human beings are created, it made sense in regards to our own Christology as well.  The way it was explained to me is that the process of Original Creation is not a solid, fixed moment of time in the past as we humans conceive of actions, events or times from our limited perspective.  Rather, just as the Divine Mysteries permanent exist in ALL TIMES and are equally manifest across ALL AGES as ONE, so to is the process of Original Creation.  While God does not necessarily stop and start again Creation at the incarnation in the womb of each new-born human being, before their incarnation, in our own physical realm we can not speak of pre-existing human beings.  Yet we also can not demarcate Creation of human beings in some linear time-line, rather each new human being incarnated is part of that single arced moment of Original Creation.  All of Creation was made in the Beginning, but it is a continuous moment not necessarily demarcated by our own conceptions of the passing of time.  So just because I did not necessarily exist in the human sense before my own incarnation in my own mothers womb, still it can't be said that I was created after Original Creation, rather my own incarnation was just a continuation of this same original process.  God's Creation is permanently occurring, so that each human being is both uncreated before their incarnation, and yet also essentially created at the same time.  Think of it like a bicycle race, where though each person starts at a different time in the literal sense, they all start at the same time in the scheme of the race they are racing, and so there is really one start of the race, even if manifested across different "starting runs".  Sorry if I sound as confused as Eutyches, this particular aspect of theology is not exactly my forte Smiley

Yes, the humanity of Jesus Christ is "created" and is not pre-existing, rather the humanity of Jesus Christ was created at the moment of Union in the Incarnation, and afterward the hypostasis of his Humanity was fully unified with the pre-existing Hypostasis of His Divinity and so the Person of Jesus Christ consisted of both in one manifested form. His Flesh and Blood simply did not exist prior to the Union, rather the Word was purely a spiritual being which possessed an immaterial Divine Hypostasis as do the consubstantial Persons of the Trinity.  However, after the Incarnation, that same Immateriality assume a Material form. This is the fundamental soteriology of Orthodox Christology, that God was made Man and in the process saved Mankind because of the absolute perfection of His Divinity.  In the Union, that which was Unoriginate (as you said) and Uncreated took on the form of a Created Being, it is an inconceivable Mystery, but that which is beyond our own comprehension shouldn't limit the Unlimited potential of our God.  God is so All-Powerful that though He is Uncreated, He could assume a Created form in the Person of Jesus Christ.


Stay Blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2011, 08:38:16 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

sounds like a change in humanity, not divinity

So human nature: flesh, mind, heart, bowels, spirit, and soul (add all other Scriptural words to basically convey human "essence") being assumed into the Trinity doesn't affect the Trinity?



well i guess i dont really know what you mean by "assumed into the Trinity," but how do you see the Trinity changing by Christ's hypostatic union? Did the divine nature change in some way?

Jesus in His Humanity exits within the Trinity.

Yes or No. Or when He Ascended did He rid Himself of His Humanity?

I am not sure how more simple I can make this.

Pre-Incarnation: No Humanity (as a person, let's not get all ontological) within the Trinity.
Post-Assumption: Humanity (specific flesh, soul, spirit, mind, bowels, etc.) assumed within the Trinity.



well if thats how you want to look at it, then I guess God changed when He went from non-Creator to Creator as well. but i think the point people are making is that nothing about the divine nature, or any of the divine hypostases changed. yes, the Word took on flesh, but His divinity in no way changed - it remained exactly as it was before the Incarnation. it did not become more or less divine, it did not gain new energies, etc.
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« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2011, 08:48:45 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

sounds like a change in humanity, not divinity

So human nature: flesh, mind, heart, bowels, spirit, and soul (add all other Scriptural words to basically convey human "essence") being assumed into the Trinity doesn't affect the Trinity?



well i guess i dont really know what you mean by "assumed into the Trinity," but how do you see the Trinity changing by Christ's hypostatic union? Did the divine nature change in some way?

Jesus in His Humanity exits within the Trinity.

Yes or No. Or when He Ascended did He rid Himself of His Humanity?

I am not sure how more simple I can make this.

Pre-Incarnation: No Humanity (as a person, let's not get all ontological) within the Trinity.
Post-Assumption: Humanity (specific flesh, soul, spirit, mind, bowels, etc.) assumed within the Trinity.



well if thats how you want to look at it, then I guess God changed when He went from non-Creator to Creator as well. but i think the point people are making is that nothing about the divine nature, or any of the divine hypostases changed. yes, the Word took on flesh, but His divinity in no way changed - it remained exactly as it was before the Incarnation. it did not become more or less divine, it did not gain new energies, etc.

Good point.
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« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2011, 10:29:14 PM »

I agree with the above.

Again, there is a thread of mine throughout this board where I openly express my frustration with the often seemingly one-sided presentation of the manifold understanding of God Orthodoxy has.

I have received PMs about this and posts which do not necessarily address my points but rather concern for "where I am going."

I like to come here to "push the envelope" with questions at times I find difficult to discuss with anyone besides my Priest, because who else really cares about these things in RL for the most part and because I often get some very interesting answers. Even in "garbage" threads, things take a detour and I learn some very helpful and insightful things.



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« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2011, 10:38:45 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

Perturbed by paradoxes?

Nope. Most EOs seems to be, because they would say God doesn't change. Again Platonism over Scripture.

No, it's really just scriptural (Platonism is cool too, though).

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
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« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2011, 10:43:19 PM »

Christ's humanity is a created element. The Apollinarists taught that the flesh of Christ was from heaven and that God the Son had it from eternity. This heresy was condemned at Constantinople I in 381 by the three Cappadocian Fathers. If you would like a document comparing Orthodox Christology with heretical Apollinarianism read these letters of St Gregory the Theologian here. Often times people tread into Christological heresies by either emphasizing the unity of the two natures too much or emphasizing their distinction too much.
Some heretical Christologies undermine the Lord's humanity in an attempt to preserve the oneness of Christ (e.g. Eutychianism, Apollinarianism, etc.).

Some heretical christologies emphasize the distinction so much that they practically divide Christ in two. Both these types of heresies undermine our salvation. The Fathers say that Christ's divinity and humanity couldn't have "mixed" to form a new/third nature neither could have the humanity been incomplete. The purpose of Christ's incarnation is to heal human nature, so if Christ's humanity lacked anything of ours he could not have fully renewed our nature. St Gregory the Theologian says:

"If anyone has put his trust in Him as a Man without a human mind, he is really bereft of mind, and quite unworthy of salvation. For that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. If only half Adam fell, then that which Christ assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it must be united to the whole nature of Him that was begotten, and so be saved as a whole. Let them not, then, begrudge us our complete salvation, or clothe the Saviour only with bones and nerves and the portraiture of humanity. For if His Manhood is without soul, even the Arians admit this, that they may attribute His Passion to the Godhead, as that which gives motion to the body is also that which suffers."

Regarding the Nestorian heresy, St Cyril says that Christ has to be one or our salvation is divided and jeopardized:

"[Nestorianism basically teaches that] our faith is in a man and not in Him Who is both by Nature and truly Son of God. For if he is true who says that he obtained the sonship by grace, he will be counted among the multitude of sons, i. e., ourselves, to whom the grace that is from above gives the sonship whereto we were called through Jesus Christ Who is forth of the seed of David according to the flesh. And the Divine Evangelist will assure thee, saying, But they who received Him He gave them authority to become the sons of God, to them that believe on His Name. Then how does he who has obtained the rank of sonship given him by another, avail to give us too a grace not his but acquired and from without?"

For one to confess an Orthodox Christology he/she must confess God the Word Incarnate to be of a perfect humanity and perfect divinity, united in one hypostasis where God the Word is the subject of the incarnation, NOT a man apart from God.
No love for my post? Sad Angry But I provided patristic references, and I gave a detailed explanation and everything! Lol  laugh
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« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2011, 10:54:02 PM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

Perturbed by paradoxes?

Nope. Most EOs seems to be, because they would say God doesn't change. Again Platonism over Scripture.

No, it's really just scriptural (Platonism is cool too, though).

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

If you read what I have written, I acknowledge that you can find such verses in Scripture, but the vast witness is otherwise.

Sorry but that is the case. For every verse like those there are dozens (or more) about God changing.

The thing is I am ok with a both / and, because it is Orthodox, interestingly many EOs want just Plato backed by a few verses from Scripture.
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« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2011, 07:46:04 AM »

Probably guilty of 20 heresies just by asking, but still, I've never really thought about it until now. In what sense is his humanity "created", or is it somehow pre-eternal and co-unoriginate with the Father before all ages?
No, it, or rather He, is totally created according to the flesh.  His Person is eternal only from the hypostatic union, but the human nature of that is totally creatd and only around 2,000 years old.

And since His humanity is assumed within the Trinity there was change.

But wait. That doesn't happen.

Explain. Thanks.

Perturbed by paradoxes?

Nope. Most EOs seems to be, because they would say God doesn't change. Again Platonism over Scripture.

No, it's really just scriptural (Platonism is cool too, though).

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

If you read what I have written, I acknowledge that you can find such verses in Scripture, but the vast witness is otherwise.

Sorry but that is the case. For every verse like those there are dozens (or more) about God changing.

The thing is I am ok with a both / and, because it is Orthodox, interestingly many EOs want just Plato backed by a few verses from Scripture.

Christ did not change. Ergo, the Trinity did not change.

This is from St Cyril of Alexandria, "That Christ is One":


B.  How is such a thing not incongruous and unbefitting Him Who is by Nature God: for being by Nature without change, He abideth full surely what He was and ever is, even though He be said to be made a refuge to any?

A.  You spoke most excellently, and very right. Hence the mention of God being brought forward, if Was made be said by any body, how is it not unlearned and unholy exceedingly to suppose that it means change, and not rather to strive to conceive of it in some other way, and to turn in wisdom to what most especially befits and is congruous to the Unchangeable God?

B.  How then do we say that the Word WAS MADE flesh, preserving to It ever Unchangeableness and without-turning, as Its own and Essentially innate to It?

A. The all-wise Paul, the steward of His mysteries, the Priest of the Gospel preachings, will make it clear saying, He ye thus minded each one in yourselves according to what was in Christ Jesus also, Who being in the Form of God held not the being Equal to God a thing to seize, yet emptied Himself taking bondman's form, MADE in likeness of men, and, found in fashion as a man, humbled Himself, MADE obedient unto death, the death of the Gross. For His Only-Begotten Word albeit God and out of God by Nature, the Brightness of the glory and the Impress of the Person of Him Who begat Him, WAS MADE man and that not turned into flesh, or undergoing commingling or mixture or ought else of such like, but rather abasing Himself unto emptiness, and for the joy set before Him despising shame and not dishonouring the poverty of the human nature. For He willed as God to render the flesh which is holden of death and sin, superior to both death and sin, and to restore it to what it was in the beginning, having made it His own, not (as some say) soulless but ensouled with intellectual soul: yet, not disdaining to go along the path hereto befitting, He is said to undergo a birth like ours, abiding what He was. For He has been born in wondrous wise according to flesh of a woman: for no otherwise was it possible that He being God by Nature should be seen by them on earth than in likeness of us, the Impalpable and without body, yet Who thought good to be made man and in Himself Alone to shew our nature illustrious in the dignities of Godhead: for He the Same was God alike and man, and in likeness of man, in that herewith He was also God, but in fashion as a man. For He was God in appearance as we, and in bondman's form the Lord, for thus do we say that He was MADE FLESH.

Therefore do we affirm that the holy Virgin is also mother of God.



See also:

Hence even though He have been made man, there is nothing to hinder our conceiving that through Him were all things brought into being, in that He is conceived of as God and co-eternal with the Father. For the Word being God has not been changed, even though He have assumed flesh ensouled with a reasonable soul, not connecting a man with Himself, as they say who innovate the Faith, but Himself made flesh as I said, i. e., man: for thus will the having been anointed befit Him nor meet with any objection; and He will be called Jesus too, being Himself in truth He Who underwent birth in the flesh from forth a woman. For thus hath He saved His own people, not as a man connected with God but as God made in the likeness of the imperilled, in order that in Him first the human race might be re-formed to what it was in the beginning: for all things were new in Him.


and
[EDIT]
A. They do wrong exceedingly, turning aside the truth unto that which in their unwisdom seems good to them and corrupting the accuracy of the sacred Scriptures. If now one say that Christ Jesus is also before time, he will not miss of the truth, if the Word which is before time is One Son and Lord, Who in the last times underwent birth after the flesh of a woman. And that the Word made man as we has not been changed, the Spirit-clad has shewn saying, Jesus Christ yesterday and to-day, the Same too for ever. And yesterday indicates past time, to-day present time, for ever that which is future and to come.

But if they think that they have thought out something clever, in taking yesterday and to-day to mean recent, asserting and saying, He that is yesterday and to-day how will he be also for ever, WE too will transfer the force of the question unto the direct opposite: The Word which is for ever how will He take to Himself Yesterday and to-day, if Christ is One and has not been divided, as says the Divine Paul? For that thus He would be known by us, you will know hence also. For although seen in the flesh and having entered on the measures of the human nature, He has testified to Himself His Eternal Being saying, Verily I say to you, Before Abraham was I am, and again, If I told you the things of earth and ye believe not, how will ye believe if I tell you those of Heaven? and no one hath gone up into Heaven except He which descended from heaven, the Son of man. For as Word Which ever is and before the ages, come down from heaven, and then the Same appearing man as we; as One Christ and Lord even when He was made flesh, does He say these things.

Emphasis mine. Caps theirs.
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« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2011, 10:19:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I was preparing my Sunday School lesson and reading through through the Epistles in my Orthodox Study Bible and by coincidence I noticed this reference which is quite relevant and I enjoyed it thoroughly.

Quote
Colossians 1:19 The fullness was a term used by the gnostic heretics to describe all the spiritual beings and forces they saw as intervening between man and God. Of these, Jesus was seen as but one mediator in one level of existence with one force.  Paul differs, saying Christ is Himself the fullness.  Jesus is everything. God in all fullness, and in His human nature, resurrected and ascended, He the created and glorified Head of all creation.  Jesus Christ ends the alienation between God and creation, bringing creation as a sacrament into a living union with God."
Orthodox Study Bible commentary

Stay blessed,
habte selassie
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