You got it, Donna -- and thanks.
I have always thought [the sign of the Cross] was a personal devotion (mostly) and people can make as they feel. Eitherway I don't see that as an ethnic or cultural thing at all.
Exactly, though it has been treated as such by folks of an ethnicity which shall remain unnamed (such things happened in more than one parish of this jurisdiction, which I do not attend) -- why folks were even paying attention to me or to my friends is beyond me.
And are you saying "En verdad, ha rescucitado" to someone who speaks Spanish?
Yeah -- this was actually a minor "issue." Can't even really call it an issue, as our Abp. speaks perfect Spanish and gives the call and response to all his priests. It was mostly just from a few folks in the parish turning their noses up at it, saying it sounded like we were riding a horse, and that "voistinu voskress" was just fine, thank you very much.
But that is more of a matter of certain people being rude, not ethnicity.
I'm used to the Athonite way of doing things, and yes many priests do read prayers in a more subdued style and do not jump up and down.
If you read my post again, you'll see I specifically mentioned not
doing such ridiculous things. There's a big difference between "jumping up and down" and simply reading the prayers as though they mean something to you. And yes, I know one does not have to be emotionalistic to genuinely feel joy -- one could argue that joy transcends emotion -- yet pastorally, the priest is attempting to convey something life-altering to his flock; if he sounds as though it's about to put him to sleep, they will (and have; I've seen it) follow suit.
But a number of prayers are supposed to be read +Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£-ÃƒÆ’ -ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢-ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¤+Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦+Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦-ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â«-ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â© - silently.
Fine. I'm talking about the spoken prayers.
It is quite prideful though to accuse a priest of being bored because he doesn't act like an evangical protestant.
I will be frank here -- it is also quite rude, sir, to assert that that was what I was implying. I know of many evangelical protestant pastors (for this is "where I grew up") who, frankly, go overboard in their volume, intensity, etc. In no way was I stating I wanted to hear such ruckus from an Orthodox priest. But again, there is a difference between sounding out of control and simply sounding sincere.
To me it is rather rude to come to the Orthodox Church and expect things to be done in Evangical Protestant style.
Again -- not Evangelical Protestant necessarily! It was simply a plea from someone who noticed that the priests seem to be "running through the motions" up there. Is it impossible to think that perhaps there are trends within the praxis of the Church (or, at least, in certain geographical sections thereof) which need to be addressed?
There are trends towards communion at EVERY liturgy with very rare or no confession at all - especially among converts. So there is some justification for this.
Donna dealt with this -- the issue was people protesting to TOO FREQUENT CONFESSION...which was my personal experience, BTW. I understand the importance of frequent confession with regards to communion, sir. The [ethnicity] apparently did not, and said that in the [ethnic] tradition of the Church, this was not how things were done...which I didn't buy, and I'm sure, from your above quote, that you don't buy, either.
People should respect the practice of the place they are at. So if no one else says greetings and responses loudly and doing so would be disruptive do not do so. When in Rome....
Understandable. What if you are the only person (or one of the few) doing so at all?
People tend to be proud of their ethnicity. Some converts (such as the Eastern rite protestants, i.e. the Antiochians) have the attitude that they want to go on some holy crusade to free pure Orthodoxy from the shackles of (insert ethnicity here) customs. People get offended by this.
As I'm sure people get offended by being called "Eastern-Rite Protestants." Many cradle (and converts) are so paranoid of even one word outside of the
language, much less any deviation from the status quo
, that one could say that the "crusade" goes both ways.
So when ethnic Orthodox see people skipping vigil/vespers and confession and recieving communion every single liturgy they get alarmed.
This is the exact opposite of what I've experienced. In the parish where I was chrismated (which was not in the "unnamed" jurisdiction; it was Eastern-Rite Protes -- er -- Antiochian
), one gentleman cornered us (the to-be converts) about how we shouldn't wear just slacks and polo shirts to our first Holy Week(this being only our first one!). The priest overheard this, then, a bit miffed, said, "well, maybe when I see him at Orthros a little more often he can make that judgement!" Turns out that the Orthros service, as well as the start of the Divine Liturgy, was attended mostly by converts. The cradle often shuffled in during the antifons, after the Creed, right before communion, etc.
The demands of many converts do not stop at wanting all English liturgy (which IMO English is a good thing). Soon you see royal doors staying open all the time or disapearing altogether, sercives being shortened, the anaphora being read out loud etc.
All of which were instigated (and defended!) by men and women who had been Orthodox their whole lives, born to Orthodox parents, etc.
I've seen a tendancy whenever a convert runs into a mean sprited ethnic person they suddenly want to cleanse Orthodoxy of all ethnicity. Thus an ideology is built because of personal disagreements.
Not ALL ethnicity -- there's much there that is beneficial! Perhaps it's useful to ask why the cradle Orthodox is mean-spirited. Perhaps the mean-spiritedness is caused by feeling uncomfortable about change -- especially about being shown the need for change by "that upstart convert over there." There are, at times, changes that need to happen, as people can get stuck in traditions that are, in fact, detrimental to spiritual growth within the Church. Whether it comes from a cradle or a convert makes not the slightest difference.
I don't speak Spanish.Lo siento