OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 30, 2014, 11:16:48 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Are Catholic sacraments valid? EOC opinion.  (Read 6213 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
peteprint
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 704



« Reply #90 on: July 29, 2011, 11:25:29 PM »

Psychic I believe is from bad side.

Gifted people from God obtain this through prayer.

Your confirming what I said. would you met somebody like Arsenie Boca that did miracles like in the Bible in face of Romanians, you would change your world view. I believe Greec had eleder Paisios.

Ok. There is one thing you can do and see for yourself.

Saint Spyridon, dead in 300's. even now his body is in good state like a living person that is asleep. Anyhow his body is missing from Church days at the time and when he returns his shoes are muddy and every year his shoes are changed.

I am not speaking aboout people moving mountains through prayer that had faith like a mustard seed since this can be too much for people with Protestant Baggage.


I was not planning on posting on this thread, but your statement regarding St. Spyridon motivated me to do so. Do those in charge of his shrine photographically record when his body is missing and when it returns?

My parish priest, whom I love dearly, recently mentioned a similar story about St. Basil of Ostrog, stating that when his clothes are changed periodically, the soles of the shoes are worn out, even though they always put new shoes on the corpse when they change his garments.

I have a very difficult time accepting such claims; they remind me of zombie stories.  Despite the fact that the resurrection has not yet occurred, we are expected to believe that some dead saints literally get up and walk around the country at times, to the extent that they wear out their shoes?

I don't claim it is impossible, and I have less problems believing that a saint may appear in a vision to someone, but physically leaving their tomb and walking?
Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #91 on: July 30, 2011, 03:31:21 AM »

1. Miracles happen even today. If you don't believe them is you option however don't speak disrespectful for them

Religion is not University so it has to has miracles. There is no point for miracles to end, now when people and God are closer. Now the miracles are even more powerfull. One needs to think at Holy Communion.

At one of Ecumenical Councils there were 2 factions. THey needed a sign from God. So the people had decided, lets ask God. They put in writting the 2 points of view and put the 2 books on a body of a dePARTED Saint. They closed the Church and went to prayer. Next day when they open the church one set of papers were in the hands of Saint and one set of papers was at her feet thus rejected.

Therev are countless miracles.

Holy water is miracle:http://stmaryofstamford.org/holywater.html Because of these miracles and because people see these miracles, in Eastern orthodoxy the question is not if God exists, the question is how people can communicate with God. For thousand tyears Eastern orthodoxy does communicate with God.

Sola Scriptura is the Wall that separates Protestants from historical documents of the Church. Denying miracles without basis is the wall that separates Protestantism from God. since God speaks through miracles. Protestants are not allowed to speak with God since God will tell them about errors of their beliefs. In Eastern orthodox faith , being the TRUE CHURCH and TRUE FAITH, there is no such concern.

Saint bodies being incorrupted is another miracle even if departure from World happen in year 300.

http://www.saint-spyridon.com/archive_spyridon.htm
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 04:04:57 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #92 on: July 30, 2011, 09:29:29 AM »

If you believe that Moses and Elijah appeared on Transfiguration day on Earth then you should have no Problem with saint Mary and Saints Appearing today and walking on Earth.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #93 on: July 30, 2011, 09:44:37 AM »

If you believe that Moses and Elijah appeared on Transfiguration day on Earth then you should have no Problem with saint Mary and Saints Appearing today and walking on Earth.
Oral Roberts could make the same argument when he was told to go up in the tower and not come down until someone donated, what was it, 2 million dollars?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #94 on: July 30, 2011, 01:36:55 PM »

One take on it is that Jesus came to Apostles and taught them and the Church about the way they should take it. On this way there is baptism for entereing Heaven, There is Holy Communion for eternal life, confession for sin forgiveness, there are miracles, Jesus and St Mary will come and speak with people and people can become Saints gettinmg to Heaven from this life and many miracles can happen.

After 1500, people did protest and went to another way named Protestantism. They renounced Holy Communion for eternal life, confession for sin forgiveness, miracles, prayers for departed and many more. This new way is a punishment being much worse that Christians had before . People going from this path to Eastern orthodoxy did that because God allowed them to do so as a result of good deeds in family and I believe that something very good did happen in their family and life and this is a gift to come to the right path. Comming to the right way means comming closer to God.

Anyhow is good for people comming to Eastern Orthodoxy to pray for people remining on the wrong path so that they will know the truth too.

WHAT I AM SAYING HERE WOULD BE FAMILIAR WITH WESTERN CHRISTIANS IN FIRST 1500 YEARS BEFORE Protestant invention. They would be scared by protestantism, I mean you ancestors that were orthodox for 1000+ years. If I would told them about saints comming from death they would say sure or abour praying to saints for intercession.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 01:56:09 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #95 on: July 30, 2011, 04:14:46 PM »

So...wait...somewhere above someone mentioned that the monks talk to St. Mary face to face.....or did I totally misread that?
PP

A good book about miracles that I recommend to you is this: http://www.amazon.com/Gurus-Young-Man-Elder-Paisios/dp/1887904166/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312056700&sr=1-1

Now bear in mind that to some denominations confusion comes because they do not differentiate right between Old Law and New Law and for some of them there is One Law.

In Old Law people and God were departed and Moses could not see the face of God. In new Law when Jesus or God came many people could see not only the face of God.
In Old Law people could not communicate with departed. In New Law God asked Lazarus to return form dead and Moses that died before appeared at Transfiguration day.

So once you sort this out and know that New Law is different and that Old Law does not apply then you start going in the right direction escaping coonfusion.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 04:16:59 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #96 on: July 30, 2011, 04:18:53 PM »

So...wait...somewhere above someone mentioned that the monks talk to St. Mary face to face.....or did I totally misread that?
PP

A good book about miracles that I recommend to you is this: http://www.amazon.com/Gurus-Young-Man-Elder-Paisios/dp/1887904166/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312056700&sr=1-1

Now bear in mind that to some denominations confusion comes because they do not differentiate right between Old Law and New Law and for some of them there is One Law.

In Old Law people and God were departed and Moses could not see the face of God. In new Law when Jesus or God came many people could see not only the face of God.
In Old Law people could not communicate with departed. In New Law God asked Lazarus to return form dead and Moses that died before appeared at Transfiguration day.

So once you sort this out and know that New Law is different and that Old Law does not apply then you start going in the right direction escaping coonfusion.


The Old Law does not apply?  Are you saying Jesus lied to us?
Logged

lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #97 on: July 30, 2011, 04:22:29 PM »

Psychic I believe is from bad side.

Gifted people from God obtain this through prayer.

Your confirming what I said. would you met somebody like Arsenie Boca that did miracles like in the Bible in face of Romanians, you would change your world view. I believe Greec had eleder Paisios.

Ok. There is one thing you can do and see for yourself.

Saint Spyridon, dead in 300's. even now his body is in good state like a living person that is asleep. Anyhow his body is missing from Church days at the time and when he returns his shoes are muddy and every year his shoes are changed.

I am not speaking aboout people moving mountains through prayer that had faith like a mustard seed since this can be too much for people with Protestant Baggage.


I was not planning on posting on this thread, but your statement regarding St. Spyridon motivated me to do so. Do those in charge of his shrine photographically record when his body is missing and when it returns?

My parish priest, whom I love dearly, recently mentioned a similar story about St. Basil of Ostrog, stating that when his clothes are changed periodically, the soles of the shoes are worn out, even though they always put new shoes on the corpse when they change his garments.

I have a very difficult time accepting such claims; they remind me of zombie stories.  Despite the fact that the resurrection has not yet occurred, we are expected to believe that some dead saints literally get up and walk around the country at times, to the extent that they wear out their shoes?

I don't claim it is impossible, and I have less problems believing that a saint may appear in a vision to someone, but physically leaving their tomb and walking?

saints are not bound by the physical laws... they are gods... 'as many gods are' ... and 'God sits in the assembly of the gods'... the saints follow Christ in anything(Rev 14:4)...
Logged
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2011, 04:26:04 PM »

can apostolic succesion(power) be undone?
Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2011, 04:28:42 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday? Do you eat certain foods?

Are christians circumcised?

Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 04:30:53 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,587


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2011, 04:34:24 PM »

can apostolic succesion(power) be undone?
Is there some kind of power intrinsic to apostolic succession?

Apostolic succession is known only within the Church. It is not a property possessed by the person of the bishop. If the bishop leaves the Church due to heresy, schism, or apostasy, the apostolic succession remains within the Church and does not go with the bishop. The bishop has thus departed from the apostolic succession in which he was once a partaker, and he ceases to be a bishop until such time that he is reconciled to the Church.
Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #101 on: July 30, 2011, 04:35:52 PM »

Hebrew 7

HEB 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
HEB 7:2 to whom also Abraham divided a tenth part of all (being first, by interpretation, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace;
HEB 7:3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God), remains a priest continually.
HEB 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth out of the best spoils.
HEB 7:5 They indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest's office have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brothers, though these have come out of the body of Abraham,
HEB 7:6 but he whose genealogy is not counted from them has accepted tithes from Abraham, and has blessed him who has the promises.
HEB 7:7 But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater.
HEB 7:8 Here people who die receive tithes, but there one receives tithes of whom it is testified that he lives.
HEB 7:9 We can say that through Abraham even Levi, who receives tithes, has paid tithes,
HEB 7:10 for he was yet in the body of his father when Melchizedek met him.
HEB 7:11 Now if there was perfection through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people have received the law), what further need was there for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
HEB 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made also in the law.
HEB 7:13 For he of whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.
HEB 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord has sprung out of Judah, about which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
HEB 7:15 This is yet more abundantly evident, if after the likeness of Melchizedek there arises another priest,
HEB 7:16 who has been made, not after the law of a fleshly commandment, but after the power of an endless life:
HEB 7:17 for it is testified, "You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek."{Psalm 110:4}
HEB 7:18 For there is an annulling of a foregoing commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
HEB 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
HEB 7:20 Inasmuch as he was not made priest without the taking of an oath
HEB 7:21 (for they indeed have been made priests without an oath), but he with an oath by him that says of him, "The Lord swore and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek.'"{Psalm 110:4}
HEB 7:22 By so much, Jesus has become the collateral of a better covenant.
HEB 7:23 Many, indeed, have been made priests, because they are hindered from continuing by death.
HEB 7:24 But he, because he lives forever, has his priesthood unchangeable.
HEB 7:25 Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them.
HEB 7:26 For such a high priest was fitting for us: holy, guiltless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
HEB 7:27 who doesn't need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For he did this once for all, when he offered up himself.
HEB 7:28 For the law appoints men as high priests who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the law appoints a Son forever who has been perfected.


 

« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 04:38:30 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #102 on: July 30, 2011, 04:38:18 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday? Do you eat certain foods?

Are christians circumcised?

Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?

When He said that he came not to destroy the [old] Law but to fulfill it.  He made that pretty clear. 
Logged

celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #103 on: July 30, 2011, 04:49:44 PM »

The Old Law does not apply? 

Council of Jerusalem
Logged

Forgive my sins.
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #104 on: July 30, 2011, 05:05:38 PM »

can apostolic succesion(power) be undone?
Is there some kind of power intrinsic to apostolic succession?

Apostolic succession is known only within the Church. It is not a property possessed by the person of the bishop. If the bishop leaves the Church due to heresy, schism, or apostasy, the apostolic succession remains within the Church and does not go with the bishop. The bishop has thus departed from the apostolic succession in which he was once a partaker, and he ceases to be a bishop until such time that he is reconciled to the Church.

Isn`t that Donatism?
Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #105 on: July 30, 2011, 05:08:42 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday? Do you eat certain foods?

Are christians circumcised?

Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?

When He said that he came not to destroy the [old] Law but to fulfill it.  He made that pretty clear. 

Exactly. The goal of Old Law was to allow for God to incarnate and come to Earth to bring the New Law. Once God has come, the Law has been fulfilled.


JER 31:31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

New Covenant.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 05:15:10 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,587


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #106 on: July 30, 2011, 05:21:39 PM »

can apostolic succesion(power) be undone?
Is there some kind of power intrinsic to apostolic succession?

Apostolic succession is known only within the Church. It is not a property possessed by the person of the bishop. If the bishop leaves the Church due to heresy, schism, or apostasy, the apostolic succession remains within the Church and does not go with the bishop. The bishop has thus departed from the apostolic succession in which he was once a partaker, and he ceases to be a bishop until such time that he is reconciled to the Church.

Isn`t that Donatism?
No. Donatism teaches that the validity of a sacrament is dependent on the personal holiness of the celebrant. If anything, I have implied the exact opposite, that the sacraments are the work of the Church, NOT the work of the individual celebrant. The Church works through the person of the celebrant to give Life to the sacraments, but the work is still that of the Church. Outside of the Church, those sacramental rites performed by the minister are devoid of the Life of the Holy Spirit and are merely empty rites. You'll actually find this teaching in the writings of St. Cyprian of Carthage.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #107 on: July 30, 2011, 05:50:54 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday?

Yes.  No fasting on Saturday, like Sunday.

Do you eat certain foods?
I won't eat blood.

Are christians circumcised?
This one and his sons are.
Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?
Matthew 5:17-20
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,587


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #108 on: August 01, 2011, 12:50:48 PM »

The tangent on circumcision has been moved to Religious Topics.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=38440.0
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 12:52:00 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.088 seconds with 46 queries.