Topic: Are Catholic sacraments valid? EOC opinion.

[ialmisry]

Monks on Athos that speak face to face with Holy Virgin say all baptisms outside Eastern orthodox Chutch are invalid and require new baptism. This is something people need to think about since they are not allowed to lie and also they speak with people from Heaven and angels and they know more. So I would look at them for getting close to the truth.

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

Are you saying that the Orthodox Church bases its doctrines about the sacraments on private revelations to the Monks of Athos?

I'll "poke fun" at that. If an angel of light preaches another Gospel, let him be accursed.

If they had private revelations, that motivate them to defend the Orthodox Faith, all well and good.  IF they attempt to offer such "revelations" as precedence, evidence and proof of their position, well they subject themselves to the penalty of a false prophet.

Mt. Athos is not so holy that there hasn't been a monk that has fallen.  I know that from the stories of Athonite supporters on monks who fell.

[Basil 320]

Yes, Holy Orthodoxy condemns the innovative teachings, practices, and for that matter later day dogma of Roman Catholicism.  I only pointed out that a pan-Orthodox Synod has not gone so far as to deem Roman Catholic's, heretics; it has not deemed their church "to be in heresy."

Also, another example of Orthodoxy's acceptance of Roman Catholicism's sacraments is the practice of ordination (that is perhaps not the correct term) into Orthodoxy of Roman Catholic clergy by vesting.  I don't think it's a common practice in Orthodoxy, but a church as prominent as the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) uses this practice from what I've seen.

[ialmisry]

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

I don't know of any Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes or Fatima.  What are they?

Lourdes has been used as a support of the IC, as the "apparition" identified herself as the "Immaculate Conception." Going a step further, Maximmillian Kolbe bases his "Immaculata" on the words of the apparition of Lourdes.

Purgatory has been defended on the basis that several "visionaries" (Fatima?  Definitely, it is claimed of the nun of the "Divine Mercy.") were shown it by their "apparitions."

[Punch]

I do not believe they are valid.  If I did, I would partake of them.  It would have been far easier for my family to join the RC rather than the EO.

[Shanghaiski]

 I only pointed out that a pan-Orthodox Synod has not gone so far as to deem Roman Catholics heretics; it has not deemed their church "to be in heresy."

This is not the purpose of ecumenical or pan-Orthodox synods.

[Shanghaiski]

I do not believe they are valid.  If I did, I would partake of them.  It would have been far easier for my family to join the RC rather than the EO.

Indeed.

Even when we have received people by economia, this is not an unequivocal acceptance that there are actual, grace-filled sacraments outside the canonical boundaries of the Orthodox Churches.

[elijahmaria]

I do not believe they are valid.  If I did, I would partake of them.  It would have been far easier for my family to join the RC rather than the EO.

Indeed.

Even when we have received people by economia, this is not an unequivocal acceptance that there are actual, grace-filled sacraments outside the canonical boundaries of the Orthodox Churches.

Unless of course you are Russian...

[Basil 320]

Re. Reply No. 49

What happened to those who did not accept the doctrines of the Ecumenical Synods (Councils) of the first millennium?  Any "matter of common concern" can be addressed by a pan-Orthodox Synod, if the churches represented agree to the topic.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A serious problem with Catholics becoming Orthodox is that at some point the person is going to look in the mirror and say "The Catholic Church cannot have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments...If they do then I converted for nothing!!...and THAT cannot be possible!"

That kind of black and white thinking is very destructive to both the individual and to corporate perceptions of what is true and what is not.

It is the kind of thinking that our bi-lateral discussions are eventually going to need to address.

Amen Amen!

The entire problem with ecumenism today and in the past is that folks on all sides of the discussions have the obvious bias that they inflect their own jurisdictions to be the only valid jurisdictions.  Now in the 5th century after "legalization" of Christianity we began this silly fight for supremacy within the Churches, be it from Roman instigation or Constantinople, or when Alexandria decides to be the self-proclaimed boss, or what about those pesky Nestorians hiding in the environs of Syria? The reality of the matter is that we either reinvent Orthodox to say, "Only one jurisdiction is the correct jurisdiction" or we learn what the Fathers believed BEFORE any schisms found their way into the Universal Church.

Why is it the Universal Church? Simply because the Grace of the Divine Mysteries/Sacraments transcends geography, politics, or theological disputation.  This is what the Fathers implied with a Universal Church, that despite any human differences, the Church remains what it is across time and space and beyond.  In the Kingdom of God and here on the Earth, there is ONE Church, just as there is ONE God, and yet clearly history has shown that like our Triune God is manifested in Three Persons with One Source, so to has our ONE, UNIVERSAL Church been manifested into multiple jurisdictions with God as our unifying Source.  

The first four hundred years of Christian fathers didn't seem to have as much of a line in the sand problem about this as we do since the first schisms.  We used to fellowship as equals, despite our variable differences.  

The solution today? To readjust to the initial attitudes of the fathers, and to again learn to respect each other as equals.  This means Romans and Byzantines should stop vaunting over the rest of Christendom, and we Oriental need to come off our high horses as well.

We obviously had several differences before any Schisms, but these were only exasperated when they were codified and institutionalized as such in the process of Schism.

Heresy is a strong appellation, and rightfully belongs to some rogue or renegade priests and theologians who misguide their flocks, but clearly after so many hundreds of years of continuation, we can all agree that whether RC, EO, or OO, it is hard to attribute our differences solely to a few bad-apple heretic priests and bishops leading the flocks astray as in other heresy movements which collapse under their own inherent falsehoods.  Rather, time and history has demonstrated as we always knew, the Church is a Body with several connected body parts each with their own important function, and these body parts are the jurisdictions.  

I say the Catholic Sacraments are valid for those called to be Catholics, the Byzantine Mysteries are valid for those called to be Byzantine, and the Oriental Mysteries are valid for those called to be Oriental, however if we keep sticking our tongues out and jeering at each other like children in the back seat of the family station wagon then surely we will just continue to look as silly as that. We should not try to convert or preach to other jurisdictions aside from the spirit of fellowship.  We should not then suppose that these other jurisdictions are invalid and open territory as this utterly disrespected these already established communions.  Rather, its  just as the Apostle Paul taught us by his example in Romans 15

"It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.  Rather, as it is written:

   “Those who were not told about him will see,
   and those who have not heard will understand.”

  This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you."

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[elijahmaria]

Who are you?  You are such a lovely soul!!...There is great peace and hope in your being as far as I can see from here...and I love it!!

M.

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A serious problem with Catholics becoming Orthodox is that at some point the person is going to look in the mirror and say "The Catholic Church cannot have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments...If they do then I converted for nothing!!...and THAT cannot be possible!"

That kind of black and white thinking is very destructive to both the individual and to corporate perceptions of what is true and what is not.

It is the kind of thinking that our bi-lateral discussions are eventually going to need to address.

Amen Amen!

The entire problem with ecumenism today and in the past is that folks on all sides of the discussions have the obvious bias that they inflect their own jurisdictions to be the only valid jurisdictions.  Now in the 5th century after "legalization" of Christianity we began this silly fight for supremacy within the Churches, be it from Roman instigation or Constantinople, or when Alexandria decides to be the self-proclaimed boss, or what about those pesky Nestorians hiding in the environs of Syria? The reality of the matter is that we either reinvent Orthodox to say, "Only one jurisdiction is the correct jurisdiction" or we learn what the Fathers believed BEFORE any schisms found their way into the Universal Church.

Why is it the Universal Church? Simply because the Grace of the Divine Mysteries/Sacraments transcends geography, politics, or theological disputation.  This is what the Fathers implied with a Universal Church, that despite any human differences, the Church remains what it is across time and space and beyond.  In the Kingdom of God and here on the Earth, there is ONE Church, just as there is ONE God, and yet clearly history has shown that like our Triune God is manifested in Three Persons with One Source, so to has our ONE, UNIVERSAL Church been manifested into multiple jurisdictions with God as our unifying Source.  

The first four hundred years of Christian fathers didn't seem to have as much of a line in the sand problem about this as we do since the first schisms.  We used to fellowship as equals, despite our variable differences.  

The solution today? To readjust to the initial attitudes of the fathers, and to again learn to respect each other as equals.  This means Romans and Byzantines should stop vaunting over the rest of Christendom, and we Oriental need to come off our high horses as well.

We obviously had several differences before any Schisms, but these were only exasperated when they were codified and institutionalized as such in the process of Schism.

Heresy is a strong appellation, and rightfully belongs to some rogue or renegade priests and theologians who misguide their flocks, but clearly after so many hundreds of years of continuation, we can all agree that whether RC, EO, or OO, it is hard to attribute our differences solely to a few bad-apple heretic priests and bishops leading the flocks astray as in other heresy movements which collapse under their own inherent falsehoods.  Rather, time and history has demonstrated as we always knew, the Church is a Body with several connected body parts each with their own important function, and these body parts are the jurisdictions.  

I say the Catholic Sacraments are valid for those called to be Catholics, the Byzantine Mysteries are valid for those called to be Byzantine, and the Oriental Mysteries are valid for those called to be Oriental, however if we keep sticking our tongues out and jeering at each other like children in the back seat of the family station wagon then surely we will just continue to look as silly as that. We should not try to convert or preach to other jurisdictions aside from the spirit of fellowship, just as the Apostle Paul taught us by his example in Romans 15

"It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.  Rather, as it is written:

   “Those who were not told about him will see,
   and those who have not heard will understand.”

  This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you."

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[pasadi97]

Then how do you explain this:

1. On Mount Athos The Emperor comes with Romano Catholic priests and orders Eastern orthodox monks to celebrate Holy Liturgy. Some monks accept and God destroys the Church, Emperor escaping.
The Emperor is not convinced. He gathers Eastern orthodox monks and forces them to celebrate again with Romano Catholics and God again destroys ANOTHER Church.

How do you explain this?

The bodies of monks celebrating with Romano Catholics stinck and until now the nails and hair grow.I heard that European Union puts some money and bodies are put in a cave and entrance is closed. However the story is there.

So you say, same Churcvh however God destroys Church when Eastern orthodox and Romano Catholics celebrate Holy Liturgy.

Today you discuss with me. After 100 years you'll discuss with God.

[elijahmaria]

With God, of course, there will be somethings wonderful to discuss!!....

Then how do you explain this:

1. On Mount Athos The Emperor comes with Romano Catholic priests and orders Eastern orthodox monks to celebrate Holy Liturgy. Some monks accept and God destroys the Church, Emperor escaping.
The Emperor is not convinced. He gathers Eastern orthodox monks and forces them to celebrate again with Romano Catholics and God again destroys ANOTHER Church.

How do you explain this?

The bodies of monks celebrating with Romano Catholics stinck and until now the nails and hair grow.I heard that European Union puts some money and bodies are put ion a cave and entrance is closed. However the story is there.

So you say, same Churcvh however God destroys Church when Eastern orthodox and Romano Catholics celebrate Holy Liturgy.

Today you discuss with me. After 100 years you'll discuss with God.

[pasadi97]

I hope everybody and everyone of us will be OK.

Story2:

Jerusalem, Crusade is victorious and Jerusalem has an Romano Catholic King. He orders Romano Catholic come with Eastern orthodox in Church waiting for Holy Light. The Holy Light does not appear so Romano Catholics exit the Church and in desperation go on Jerusalem decrying that Romano Catholicism is not the True Faith. After leaving The Church Holy Light comes to Eastern orthodox.

Story 3:

Eastern orthodox Church comes into Romano CAtholicism and celebrate Holy Liturgy. However after going to Romano Catholicism, after Consecration wine becomes water. The Bishop decries going to Romano Catholicism and the change of wine into water.

Holy Water is another thing.

[Irish Hermit]

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

I don't know of any Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes or Fatima.  What are they?

Lourdes has been used as a support of the IC, as the "apparition" identified herself as the "Immaculate Conception."

Well aware of that-a good Catholic schooling.    Lourdes took place *after* the papal definition of the IC had been infallibly proclaimed.

So I am interested in the claim that there are Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes and Fatima. There simply isn't one but I am open to learning....

[primuspilus]

So...wait...somewhere above someone mentioned that the monks talk to St. Mary face to face.....or did I totally misread that?
PP

[Sleeper]

Bravo!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A serious problem with Catholics becoming Orthodox is that at some point the person is going to look in the mirror and say "The Catholic Church cannot have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments...If they do then I converted for nothing!!...and THAT cannot be possible!"

That kind of black and white thinking is very destructive to both the individual and to corporate perceptions of what is true and what is not.

It is the kind of thinking that our bi-lateral discussions are eventually going to need to address.

Amen Amen!

The entire problem with ecumenism today and in the past is that folks on all sides of the discussions have the obvious bias that they inflect their own jurisdictions to be the only valid jurisdictions.  Now in the 5th century after "legalization" of Christianity we began this silly fight for supremacy within the Churches, be it from Roman instigation or Constantinople, or when Alexandria decides to be the self-proclaimed boss, or what about those pesky Nestorians hiding in the environs of Syria? The reality of the matter is that we either reinvent Orthodox to say, "Only one jurisdiction is the correct jurisdiction" or we learn what the Fathers believed BEFORE any schisms found their way into the Universal Church.

Why is it the Universal Church? Simply because the Grace of the Divine Mysteries/Sacraments transcends geography, politics, or theological disputation.  This is what the Fathers implied with a Universal Church, that despite any human differences, the Church remains what it is across time and space and beyond.  In the Kingdom of God and here on the Earth, there is ONE Church, just as there is ONE God, and yet clearly history has shown that like our Triune God is manifested in Three Persons with One Source, so to has our ONE, UNIVERSAL Church been manifested into multiple jurisdictions with God as our unifying Source.  

The first four hundred years of Christian fathers didn't seem to have as much of a line in the sand problem about this as we do since the first schisms.  We used to fellowship as equals, despite our variable differences.  

The solution today? To readjust to the initial attitudes of the fathers, and to again learn to respect each other as equals.  This means Romans and Byzantines should stop vaunting over the rest of Christendom, and we Oriental need to come off our high horses as well.

We obviously had several differences before any Schisms, but these were only exasperated when they were codified and institutionalized as such in the process of Schism.

Heresy is a strong appellation, and rightfully belongs to some rogue or renegade priests and theologians who misguide their flocks, but clearly after so many hundreds of years of continuation, we can all agree that whether RC, EO, or OO, it is hard to attribute our differences solely to a few bad-apple heretic priests and bishops leading the flocks astray as in other heresy movements which collapse under their own inherent falsehoods.  Rather, time and history has demonstrated as we always knew, the Church is a Body with several connected body parts each with their own important function, and these body parts are the jurisdictions.  

I say the Catholic Sacraments are valid for those called to be Catholics, the Byzantine Mysteries are valid for those called to be Byzantine, and the Oriental Mysteries are valid for those called to be Oriental, however if we keep sticking our tongues out and jeering at each other like children in the back seat of the family station wagon then surely we will just continue to look as silly as that. We should not try to convert or preach to other jurisdictions aside from the spirit of fellowship.  We should not then suppose that these other jurisdictions are invalid and open territory as this utterly disrespected these already established communions.  Rather, its  just as the Apostle Paul taught us by his example in Romans 15

"It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.  Rather, as it is written:

   “Those who were not told about him will see,
   and those who have not heard will understand.”

  This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you."

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[pasadi97]

So...wait...somewhere above someone mentioned that the monks talk to St. Mary face to face.....or did I totally misread that?
PP

No you heard it well.
Even in Romania I was told by a monk there are several monks that saw Saint Mary.
Here a monk saw Holy Trinity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcFHVhhwgq8 min 4:50
Here Mother of God appeared and left a footprint in rock on Moldavia monastery min 1:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV6eQLLjwS4
Here a monk staying for 20 years in wilderness say that is possible to speak with God: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7kreDRzgQ

Stages of prayer: http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/rugaciune.htm in romanian by Elder Cleopa that you saw in a movie above and that I met personally.
Stage 1. prayer of lips
Stage 2. prayer of mind
Stage 3. prayer of heart, When mind goes into hearth. Maybe 1 in 10 000 go here.
Stage 4. self moving prayer when hearth prays itself. Maybe one in nation may be here. This is what I believe that hermit above was speaking about.
Stage 5. vision prayer. Who has this prayer has opening the eye of soul and can see the other world, angels, past, future, sins, everywhere on Earth,.
Stage 6. Extasy prayer when hands and face glowes like fire, mind goes to Heaven like prayer of St Elijah
Stage 7. Spiritual prayer when man is taken to Heaven and sees heaven. This is Union withb God from this life if I understand correctly.

The stages I took them from romanian text above. Or here I post it again: http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/rugaciune.htm

[theistgal]

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

I don't know of any Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes or Fatima.  What are they?

I'm not saying they are, and I don't think they are.

But I have seen posters here at OC.net say that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was based on the visions at Lourdes (despite the fact that the doctrine was proclaimed 4 years *before* Lourdes). 

And frankly, when I hear anyone (Catholic or Orthodox) say that the Blessed Virgin Mary spoke directly to them, even someone as holy as a monk on Athos, I take it with a very large grain of salt and require a whole heckuva lotta proof.

[pasadi97]

That is because you have not met Father Arsenie Boca or somebody like him that could tell you the past, your sins, your name, thoughts and many other things. In think he was stage 5 or above. Somebody saw him when praying and having fire around him until he stopped praying.

Anyhow the best book to understand prayer is Philokalia that is the book read by the russian  pilgrim from book: The Way of Pilgrim. Father Arsenie Boca was was part of team translating Philokalia into Romanian.

[ialmisry]

I hope everybody and everyone of us will be OK.

Story2:

Jerusalem, Crusade is victorious and Jerusalem has an Romano Catholic King. He orders Romano Catholic come with Eastern orthodox in Church waiting for Holy Light. The Holy Light does not appear so Romano Catholics exit the Church and in desperation go on Jerusalem decrying that Romano Catholicism is not the True Faith. After leaving The Church Holy Light comes to Eastern orthodox.

Story 3:

Eastern orthodox Church comes into Romano CAtholicism and celebrate Holy Liturgy. However after going to Romano Catholicism, after Consecration wine becomes water. The Bishop decries going to Romano Catholicism and the change of wine into water.

Holy Water is another thing.

Jannes and Jambres

[pasadi97]

Nope . Is God.

There is no reason for God doing miracles when God and man were far away and now when men can become children of God, God to stop doing miracles. This is Protestant baggage.

Father Arsenie Boca, 20 years after death http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3MxO567C3I

[theistgal]

That is because you have not met Father Arsenie Boca or somebody like him that could tell you the past, your sins, your name, thoughts and many other things. In think he was stage 5 or above. Somebody saw him when praying and having fire around him until he stopped praying.

Nope, I've never met anyone who could do that.  I've met a lot of people who claimed they could do that, but it always turned out there was some trick to it.

I'm not saying the person you're talking about was deceitful, just that I am skeptical of people who claim psychic abilities - seems too gnostic for me.

[pasadi97]

Psychic I believe is from bad side.

Gifted people from God obtain this through prayer.

Your confirming what I said. would you met somebody like Arsenie Boca that did miracles like in the Bible in face of Romanians, you would change your world view. I believe Greec had eleder Paisios.

Ok. There is one thing you can do and see for yourself.

Saint Spyridon, dead in 300's. even now his body is in good state like a living person that is asleep. Anyhow his body is missing from Church days at the time and when he returns his shoes are muddy and every year his shoes are changed.

I am not speaking aboout people moving mountains through prayer that had faith like a mustard seed since this can be too much for people with Protestant Baggage.

[primuspilus]

No you heard it well.
Even in Romania I was told by a monk there are several monks that saw Saint Mary.
Here a monk saw Holy Trinity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcFHVhhwgq8 min 4:50
Here Mother of God appeared and left a footprint in rock on Moldavia monastery min 1:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV6eQLLjwS4
Here a monk staying for 20 years in wilderness say that is possible to speak with God: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7kreDRzgQ

Stages of prayer: http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/rugaciune.htm in romanian by Elder Cleopa that you saw in a movie above and that I met personally.
Stage 1. prayer of lips
Stage 2. prayer of mind
Stage 3. prayer of heart, When mind goes into hearth. Maybe 1 in 10 000 go here.
Stage 4. self moving prayer when hearth prays itself. Maybe one in nation may be here. This is what I believe that hermit above was speaking about.
Stage 5. vision prayer. Who has this prayer has opening the eye of soul and can see the other world, angels, past, future, sins, everywhere on Earth,.
Stage 6. Extasy prayer when hands and face glowes like fire, mind goes to Heaven like prayer of St Elijah
Stage 7. Spiritual prayer when man is taken to Heaven and sees heaven. This is Union withb God from this life if I understand correctly.

Please dont take this the wrong way, but 2 things:

1. Is there documentation (as in a council) affirming this prayer step stuff?
2. I am heavily skeptical of Mary or anyone leave footprints, appearing in a vision etc. If people want to believe it, thats fine. But I would figure Mary is a little too busy praying to the Lord for us to show up in Moldavia leaving footprints....

PP

[theistgal]

Psychic is from bad side.

Gifted people from God obtain this through prayer.

Your confirming what I said. would you met somebody like Arsenie Boca that did miracles like in the Bible in face of Romanians, you would change your world view. I believe Greec had eleder Paisios.

Since he died in 1989, I don't think it's possible for me to meet him.  If you know someone in Southern California, let me know.  

By the way, is all this about mystics the official teaching of Orthodoxy or just your opinion?  thanks.

[pasadi97]

No you heard it well.
Even in Romania I was told by a monk there are several monks that saw Saint Mary.
Here a monk saw Holy Trinity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcFHVhhwgq8 min 4:50
Here Mother of God appeared and left a footprint in rock on Moldavia monastery min 1:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV6eQLLjwS4
Here a monk staying for 20 years in wilderness say that is possible to speak with God: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7kreDRzgQ

Stages of prayer: http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/rugaciune.htm in romanian by Elder Cleopa that you saw in a movie above and that I met personally.
Stage 1. prayer of lips
Stage 2. prayer of mind
Stage 3. prayer of heart, When mind goes into hearth. Maybe 1 in 10 000 go here.
Stage 4. self moving prayer when hearth prays itself. Maybe one in nation may be here. This is what I believe that hermit above was speaking about.
Stage 5. vision prayer. Who has this prayer has opening the eye of soul and can see the other world, angels, past, future, sins, everywhere on Earth,.
Stage 6. Extasy prayer when hands and face glowes like fire, mind goes to Heaven like prayer of St Elijah
Stage 7. Spiritual prayer when man is taken to Heaven and sees heaven. This is Union withb God from this life if I understand correctly.

Please dont take this the wrong way, but 2 things:

1. Is there documentation (as in a council) affirming this prayer step stuff?
2. I am heavily skeptical of Mary or anyone leave footprints, appearing in a vision etc. If people want to believe it, thats fine. But I would figure Mary is a little too busy praying to the Lord for us to show up in Moldavia leaving footprints....

PP

There was a council when they discussed and validated the mystical experiences. Gregory Palama on one side and a man that wanted to find God through mind and spoke against Hesychasm . Fifth Council of Constantinople
Stages of prayer is the experience of people having unceasing prayer, experience collected across hundreds of year. These particular stages are not dogma however if you want to go forward in prayer is good to find out what practitioners and explorers say about this. Stages of prayer are from ELDER CLEOPA a man that liked to read from religious documents, some of them from all across ortodoxy both in time and space that spent in forest several years in prayer.
I believe if you pray to Jesus to come to you and for you to see Jesus or Saint Mary or an angel this will happen. If you do that , pray so thar this will be with benefit to you.

[primuspilus]

There was a council when they discussed and validated the mystical experiences. Gregory Palama on one side and a man that wanted to find God through mind and spoke against isihasm. Fifth Council of Constantinople

Ah im reading about that now in the book Im reading. Hesychasm I think is what it was called. I was unaware that the 5th council stated that there were all these levels and you can be whisked into Heaven and all that. I would like some clarification on that as thats nowhere in the book Im reading (at least not yet - Orthodox Church by Met. Ware).

PP

[pasadi97]

There was a council when they discussed and validated the mystical experiences. Gregory Palama on one side and a man that wanted to find God through mind and spoke against isihasm. Fifth Council of Constantinople

Ah im reading about that now in the book Im reading. Hesychasm I think is what it was called. I was unaware that the 5th council stated that there were all these levels and you can be whisked into Heaven and all that. I would like some clarification on that as thats nowhere in the book Im reading (at least not yet - Orthodox Church by Met. Ware).

PP

Nope. I believe Fifth Council validated Hesychasm not these levels of prayers and what happens at every level. I believe these levels of prayers to be a result of Hesychasm.
Elder Cleopa that wrote the document spent several years in forest just in prayer and had many christian documents from Early Church into his hand.
This movie is about stages of prayer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOGXdLoNl2w

Anyhow this thread is about milk and I am giving hard stuff and many inquirers may not be prepared right now. In around 2000 years of Christianity some interesting stuff was collected.

How can anyone say miracles do not happen when changing the bread and wine into body and blood of Jesus happen at Holy Liturgy on Sundays. The idea is this, it is possible from this life to speak face to face to God and to have the soul vision open. Right now there is dirt on soul vision that gets cleared thorugh prayer. I will tell you one account and I do not expect you to believe me. I did go to a monk and I asked him to pray to me to God and several days after this I was speaking with Jesus face to face. I can not prove this to you. You can believe me or not . I believe the monk prayed to Jesus for me and the monk name was Theophilus that is The one that loves God.

[elijahmaria]

That is because you have not met Father Arsenie Boca or somebody like him that could tell you the past, your sins, your name, thoughts and many other things. In think he was stage 5 or above. Somebody saw him when praying and having fire around him until he stopped praying.

Anyhow the best book to understand prayer is Philokalia that is the book read by the russian  pilgrim from book: The Way of Pilgrim. Father Arsenie Boca was was part of team translating Philokalia into Romanian.

Stage 5...

[celticfan1888]

And frankly, when I hear anyone (Catholic or Orthodox) say that the Blessed Virgin Mary spoke directly to them, even someone as holy as a monk on Athos, I take it with a very large grain of salt and require a whole heckuva lotta proof.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Then how do you explain this:

1. On Mount Athos The Emperor comes with Romano Catholic priests and orders Eastern orthodox monks to celebrate Holy Liturgy. Some monks accept and God destroys the Church, Emperor escaping.
The Emperor is not convinced. He gathers Eastern orthodox monks and forces them to celebrate again with Romano Catholics and God again destroys ANOTHER Church.

How do you explain this?

The bodies of monks celebrating with Romano Catholics stinck and until now the nails and hair grow.I heard that European Union puts some money and bodies are put in a cave and entrance is closed. However the story is there.

So you say, same Churcvh however God destroys Church when Eastern orthodox and Romano Catholics celebrate Holy Liturgy.

Today you discuss with me. After 100 years you'll discuss with God.

No disrespect but that is superstitiously simplistic.  By your own logic the RC is valid because it still exists after nearly two-thousand years, the same with each other other jurisdictions.  If Divine Justice is the end all of supposedly heretical jurisdictions, how come God hasn't destroyed the Roman Catholic Church or the Coptic Church outright?


stay blessed,
habte selassie

[theistgal]

Is that a subtle crack about my weight?            

[pasadi97]

Maybe Mount Athos is the Garden of Holy Mother of God so there decisions are made swiftly.

The true worry is the account with Holy Water I was speaking about where God was asked which between Roman Catholicism and Eastern orthodoxy is True Church and the answer FROM GOD , both priests groups praying was EASTERN ORTHODOXY.

[PeterTheAleut]

Reminder No. 2 to our Roman and Eastern Catholic posters that this is the Convert Issues board, a place for "discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith." Since I don't see any reason right now to either move or split this thread, I am going to defer such a decision to this section's moderator. Until such time that Thomas decides that parts of this discussion need to go somewhere else, you who represent traditions outside those of the Orthodox Church are permitted to post on this thread ONLY to correct misconceptions of your faith. Any other presentation of the tenets of your faith is forbidden here, and, since this is now the second time I've had to say this, formal warnings and post moderation will be handed out to specific individuals who disregard this directive.

As a general warning to all of you, the Convert Issues section is also not the place for serious debate. (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9810.0.html) If you wish to engage any point on this thread in a more focused debate, please PM the moderators to let us know so we can split or move this thread for that purpose. Until then, please keep your posts on this thread appropriately simple and easy for those new to the Orthodox Faith to understand. Thank you.

- PeterTheAleut
Moderator

[elijahmaria]

1. Is there documentation (as in a council) affirming this prayer step stuff?

The idea of stages in the spiritual life is patristic...that is real enough.  But it is not something that can be "measured" as in the minds of ordinary people weighing in apples and cabbages.

Read St. Gregory Nyssa's The Life of Moses...That is where it begins.

[pasadi97]

Here is an account of St Mary speaking face to face with a man in Athens Greece. She informed the man that a lady was dying and that he needs to ask the priest to go to that lady with Holy Communion. The story is very interesting http://engforum.pravda.ru/index.php?/topic/169572-crazy-john-an-athenian-fool-for-christ/:
""One afternoon, Crazy John was standing in front of the icon of the Holy Mother. I was in the office. I could hear him talking and I could hear -without seeing- that he was conversing with a woman, I paid no attention. When I came out of the office, I could see only Crazy John, and there was nobody else inside the church. The sacristan was away on an errand. Crazy John approached me and, after prostrating himself before me as he usually did, he said:

--'Father, you should go to Mrs.Stamata after Vespers. She is waiting for you to give her Holy Communion because her hours are numbered and she may not make it through tonight."

--"And how do you know this?" I asked him.

--"A woman told me, a while ago", Crazy John replied.

--"And why on earth didn't she come and inform me?"

--"Well, she must have thought I was the sacristan" he said, and departed immediately afterwards.

I have a clear view of the main entrance of the church from my office, and I didn't see any woman entering. But even so, I didn't give it much thought...After Vespers, I went to Stamata's house. Her daughter was astounded when she saw me, as she was planning to come and notify me the next day so that her mother can receive Holy Communion, and not oblige me to go there in the night. I entered Stamata's room and gave her Holy Communion. She thanked me, and held my hand for a short while, then said to me, breathing with difficulty:

"

I would say stage 6 now that I am thinking better. Anyhow if anyone gets serious on prayer Philokalia is the best book. I believe it is written by several monks, and that one of them moved Mountains with prayer, having faith like a mustard seed.

Anyhow for people comming to True Church, being doutbtfull is something however being disrespectfull with miracles may be sin.

[pasadi97]

St Spyridon:

St. Spyridon reposed in, more or less, the year 348. His relics, completely incorrupt, are kept in the cathedral on the island of Corfu. He has a reputation as being an unusually active saint — he is seen here, there and pretty much everywhere, interceding for the faithful. Oh pshaw, you say. How do you know that?

There is some unusual proof to the statement. Every year they take his relics and process through the streets of the town. The relics are so incorrupt, so soft and flexible, that they bounce slightly as he is carried, as you or I might bounce when being carried in a chair. After the procession, they do one other thing. Every year. For the who knows how many centuries. What do they do?

Every year, they change St. Spyridon’s shoes. The reason is that the old ones — which were just put on him the year before — are worn out, with holes in the soles. Just like they would be if worn by a man who had just spent the last year covering a lot of ground.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Spyridon

"When Spyridon, paused in his journey to rest for the night at an inn, the Arians came under cover of darkness and decapitated both of the horses who were to pull his carriage. When dawn came and Spyridon's companions saw what the heretics had done, a servant ran to tell the bishop. Saint Spyridon put his hope in the Lord and told the servant to go back and put the horses' heads back on their bodies. The servant went quickly and did what he had been told, but in his haste, he placed the head of the white horse on the body of the black horse, and the head of the black horse on the body of the white horse. At once, the horses came to life and rose to their feet. The saint gave thanks to God, got into his carriage and continued on his way to the council. All the people who saw this were amazed, for the black horse had a white head, and the white horse had a black head! Best of all, the wicked scheme of the heretics failed and the saint arrived at the Council where he proved to be a great defender and teacher of the faith.

"

When St spiridon arrived at Council people were scared. Arians saw a black horse with white head since the helper did not see color putting the heads when dark.

[celticfan1888]

Is that a subtle crack about my weight?            

Oh no ma'am, I hope you don't think I meant it that way. 

I just thought the picture fit what you said with humor. 

[pasadi97]

The life of St Spiridon http://www.saint-spyridon.com/archive_spyridon.htm

[theistgal]

I just thought the picture fit what you said with humor. 

No worries, my friend, I was just joshin'.

[Wyatt]

So, what does the Church say?

What a silly question. The Church says that Her sacraments are valid, of course.

[elijahmaria]

So, what does the Church say?

What a silly question. The Church says that Her sacraments are valid, of course.

Careful.  Remember where we are on the Forum.  I forgot for a moment but PtA has reminded us.  There's a serious question on the table by the OP who is entering Orthodoxy.

M.

[ialmisry]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Then how do you explain this:

1. On Mount Athos The Emperor comes with Romano Catholic priests and orders Eastern orthodox monks to celebrate Holy Liturgy. Some monks accept and God destroys the Church, Emperor escaping.
The Emperor is not convinced. He gathers Eastern orthodox monks and forces them to celebrate again with Romano Catholics and God again destroys ANOTHER Church.

How do you explain this?

The bodies of monks celebrating with Romano Catholics stinck and until now the nails and hair grow.I heard that European Union puts some money and bodies are put in a cave and entrance is closed. However the story is there.

So you say, same Churcvh however God destroys Church when Eastern orthodox and Romano Catholics celebrate Holy Liturgy.

Today you discuss with me. After 100 years you'll discuss with God.

No disrespect but that is superstitiously simplistic.  By your own logic the RC is valid because it still exists after nearly two-thousand years, the same with each other other jurisdictions.  If Divine Justice is the end all of supposedly heretical jurisdictions, how come God hasn't destroyed the Roman Catholic Church or the Coptic Church outright?


stay blessed,
habte selassie

The Vatican has only been around a thousand years.

The Coptic Church is Orthodox.

God sends the rain on the bad and the good.

[ialmisry]

Nope . Is God.

There is no reason for God doing miracles when God and man were far away and now when men can become children of God, God to stop doing miracles. This is Protestant baggage.

"Only an evil and perverse generation seeks a sign."

The Protestants didn't make that up.

I find no evidence that the Lord has changed His mind on that matter.

[akimori makoto]

Nope . Is God.

There is no reason for God doing miracles when God and man were far away and now when men can become children of God, God to stop doing miracles. This is Protestant baggage.

"Only an evil and perverse generation seeks a sign."

The Protestants didn't make that up.

I find no evidence that the Lord has changed His mind on that matter.

He has a point about some of the whacky miracle-denial that goes on in protestant circles though: everything miraculous that happened between Genesis and Acts is true but anything that happened after Acts is Scripture-denying Popery and hocus pocus.