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Author Topic: Are Catholic sacraments valid? EOC opinion.  (Read 6227 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 24, 2011, 04:48:28 PM »

If this has been asked already, can you please give me the link, I can't find it.

Are Catholic sacraments valid? If so, does that mean that Catholics can go to heaven? How does the EOC recieve Catholic converts?
If you could provide references, that would be YAHOOOOOOOO!
Thanks.


Also please pray for me guys, this is a really really bad time in my life. But I really feel your prayers are making difference.
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 05:01:34 PM »

Lord have mercy!

As for Catholic Sacraments, I believe they are valid. I've always different after I walk out of confession, as opposed to when I go in. This is just my opinion though.
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 05:17:18 PM »

From my readings into the matter there is a divided opinion. Usually I have heard it say "The Orthodox knows where the Holy Spirit is but does not know outisde of that." So the sacraments of the RC could be valid (can't put a limit on the grace of God).

But then again if you look at it as the Body of Christ being only one, and if you accept the EO being the Body of Christ, outside of that I would say no.

But I am ignorant on this topic, so take my response with a grain of salt.
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2011, 06:36:41 PM »

Herrens miskunn!

I wouldn't think so, considering they are not part of The Church and are in heresy (although this does not mean Catholics cannot go to heaven).

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/rcsacs.htm
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 06:44:20 PM »

Unless they join the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, it doesn't matter.
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 06:53:45 PM »

Are Catholic sacraments valid? If so, does that mean that Catholics can go to heaven? How does the EOC recieve Catholic converts?
If you could provide references, that would be YAHOOOOOOOO!

There are varying opinions on the validity of Catholic sacraments, and varying ways to receive Catholics, so it really depends on who you ask. Regarding Catholics going to heaven, sure, whether their sacraments are valid or not, they still have a shot, like all of us.  The sacraments are like a medicine for the soul. Even if you don't have that medicine, it's possible that you could still get healthy, it's just more difficult. On the other hand, if that medicine is available to you, then it's certainly wise to use it, as it will help with the healing. Here are some of the first articles I found...

I Confess One Baptism - Fr. George Metallinos
Baptism and the Reception of Converts
Acceptance into the Orthodox Church - Bp. Basil (Rodzianko)

... just do a Google search with a mix of words like "Orthodox, Catholic, sacraments, baptism, valid, grace, etc." and you'll find all sorts of arguments and articles.
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2011, 07:06:20 PM »

Herrens miskunn!

I wouldn't think so, considering they are not part of The Church and are in heresy (although this does not mean Catholics cannot go to heaven).

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/rcsacs.htm


Whoa! I am totally confused now. I thought sacraments were necessary for salvation. Isn't there a verse that says, "unless you are baptized you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven."? Please tell me what the EOC church view is.


Also, this article says that Protestant baptism is accepted which completely goes against what I understood. I thought baptism must be given by an apostolic priest. But a Protestant have the lineage (laying on of hands) that Catholic and Orthodox priests recieved--passed down from generations from Jesus himself. Was I wrong? Can anyone baptize?
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2011, 07:17:04 PM »

Unless they join the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, it doesn't matter.

What then of the many cases of schism and lack of communion between churches throughout history? Which one was the Church and which one was not? Especially when the churches later reestablished communion?
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2011, 07:42:18 PM »


Whoa! I am totally confused now. I thought sacraments were necessary for salvation. Isn't there a verse that says, "unless you are baptized you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven."? Please tell me what the EOC church view is.


Most will tell you we really don't know if those outside of The Church can enter the Kingdom of Heaven, so there isnt a definite stance one way or another. But we do know that God is loving and forgiving, so I'm sure that those who are not members of The Church can enter the Kingdom.

"Does this mean that all now outside the Church will go to hell? No. Bishop Kallistos Ware suggests that "While there is no division between a `visible' and an 'invisible' Church yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense we cannot always say" (The Orthodox Church, p. 248, 1993 edition). Christ our God may be working in others in ways unknown to us and even to them, to bring them to salvation. And in due time, perhaps not till after death, they may recognize God and accept Christ and be united to His Body the Church-so that they can be saved.

This is in accord with the teaching of Christ. In the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25), notice that it is the "nations" (v. 32), the nonbelievers, who are being judged (this is obvious, because they are surprised to learn that Christ dwells in the needy), and some of them are welcomed into the "kingdom prepared for [them] from the foundation of the world" (v. 34).

Regarding God's mysterious work outside the Orthodox Church, we have nothing to say. We make no judgments about what God is doing there, or about what happens to the souls of those who are not Orthodox or not Christian on earth. It is all we can do to try to "work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12)."

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Orthodox/2005/03/Do-All-Non-Orthodox-People-Go-To-Hell.aspx


Also, this article says that Protestant baptism is accepted which completely goes against what I understood. I thought baptism must be given by an apostolic priest. But a Protestant have the lineage (laying on of hands) that Catholic and Orthodox priests recieved--passed down from generations from Jesus himself. Was I wrong? Can anyone baptize?

A lot of times there is the case of correctly performed Trinitarian baptisms of those who are not of the correct faith, and sometimes all that needs to be done is a "chrismation" and they're part of the Church. But this is, of course, up to the discretion of the bishop. Some may baptise all converts, some may only chrismate Roman Catholic converts and baptise Protestants, some may even only chrismate SOME Protestant converts (only those with the correct Trinitarian baptism, not Mormons for example).

Again, it's up to the bishop.
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2011, 07:59:58 PM »


A lot of times there is the case of correctly performed Trinitarian baptisms of those who are not of the correct faith, and sometimes all that needs to be done is a "chrismation" and they're part of the Church. But this is, of course, up to the discretion of the bishop. Some may baptise all converts, some may only chrismate Roman Catholic converts and baptise Protestants, some may even only chrismate SOME Protestant converts (only those with the correct Trinitarian baptism, not Mormons for example).

Again, it's up to the bishop.

Wow. thanks for clearing that up. I guess you're probably right, there is no official answer. I really wish there was. But then, can I go around baptizing people myself. If so, let me get my miter. laugh
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2011, 08:03:41 PM »

i know in my particular case (ROCOR, Eastern American Diocese under His Eminence Hilarion) that I will be baptized, and i come from a roman background

however, other particular churches simply chrisimate, or even accept roman converts by a profession of faith.
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2011, 09:06:17 PM »

The Orthodox faith regarding this issue is thus:

There is no eclesiastical grace outside the Church. You can find healings, miracles, in sum, God does love everybody even those outside the Church and obviously listens to those who call upon Him, upon the Son, the Holy Spirit and likewise do the saints, the Theotokos above all. The love of God is not an exclusive club.

Said that "love of God" and "action of the Holy Spirit" does not equate "Church". Church is the Body of Christ, physical and spiritual. Like any body, it has pretty much defined limits - if anyone shows a person whose body "we know where it is, but we don't know where it isn't" than we can both start thinking about applying this reference to the Church *and* we can call the quantic physicists because we will have found the so desired macroscopic ambiguity of sub-particles. But since the Church is compared to a body and not to an electron, it is still a very well delimited body. There may be fair disagreements if it is the Orthodox, the Romans or the Non-Chalcedonians, but surely not "I'm sure I'm in, but we may all be in , better not say that someone isn't" which explains away but explains nothing.

So the Church has a delimited body, and we do believe that this well-defined body is the confederation of national churches known as the Orthodox Church. Very well. The non-Orthodox churches may be communions of faith, some of its members may be better disciples than an Orthodox, but, there is no salvific grace in any of them. None at all. Which means that their sacraments are just beautiful, inspiring rites.

Why, then, different bishops receive people from different jurisdictions in different ways? That has *nothing* to do with the status of "validity" of their rites. It has to do with pastoral decision. The duty of the bishop is to facilitate entrance into the Church, not to prevent it. Many new converts are not mature enough in the faith to face the fact that, as pious as they may have been before, there was no salvific grace there. Most react with "then it was all useless!". Of course it wasn't useless, it helped bring the person into the Church. It also shaped and cultivated his personality to better adapt to the Church. But had them stopped there, there would be no salvific grace whatsoever. So, the rule is: they are all out of the house, and the duty of the bishop is to help them get in, even if it is through the window, the chimney a crack on the wall or whatever. It's full of wolves out there, you have to bring in as many as you can as fast you can. If, though, the bishop sees that this flexibility is being abused, he may resume the strictness of the admission and demand full baptism.

Now, the point that most people usually really want to know... if there is no salvific grace in their churches, then they are lost and damned forever? If a person dies as a Roman or Protestant is the person condemned to hell? Of course not. We see in Matthew 13:24-30 and Matthew 13:36-43. In fact all the parables in this chapter apply to the Church, because the Church is the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Everything said of the Kingdom applies to the Church. And what is it that we learn in these parables? That when the Last Judgment come, some who are in will be spilled out, and some who are out will be brought in. So, the Church is salvation itself, here, now, not in the future. But in this world and age, there are good seeds and tares in it. This is very easy to see. Likewise, when we look outside the church, we see lots of good seeds and also lots of tare. Last Judgment will put all the good seeds in the Church and all the tares out.

So, there is no salvation (and therefore sacraments) outside the Church, and yes we can know where the Church is now. We can also know who is in it and who is out. But, what we can't know is who will be kept in and who will be kept out, who will be spilled out and who will be brought in. Today good seeds and tares are mixed. After the Last Judgment they will be separated.

Therefore, if by salvation you mean the ultimate fate after the Last Judgment, there is no guarantee for anyone. If by salvation you mean the actual presence of the salvific energy of the Church, than it is exclusively in the Church that is One/Undivided, Holy, Catholic/Orthodox, Apostolic.
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2011, 09:26:41 PM »

Dear Fabio,

Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2011, 09:50:16 PM »

Dear Fabio,

Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944

If the Archpriests' claim were true, could he give one single reason why a Catholic should convert to Orthodoxy? It seems to me that he, much like *many* Orthodox priests I've met here in Brazil, would just say to the Roman willing to convert: "don't do it. Your church also has salvific grace and valid sacraments. Stay where you are.". Even if the Archpriest doesn't say that in so few words, that's the logical inequivocal conclusion of his words. Also, for the many descedents who stop going to the Orthodox parish because it's too far and the priest too (pejorative adjective of their choice), and start going to the nearest Roman church, what does he have to say besides: "No, you have to go to the Orthodox church because it's the Church of your ancestors?".

Irish Hermit, if the Archpriest's interpretation were true, it would be a *sin* to turn our backs to the real body of Christ, to His real presence just because the leader of the Roman jurisdiction happens to be equivocated on a couple of theological issues. When people ask why Orthodoxy is not stronger in the West today, right there, in that reasoning, is one of the main reasons. Many among us, simply can't come up with a substantial motivation for being Orthodox since the differences between churches would be just the petty stuborness of pious but small people.

There are enough anathemas regarding Rome and the Non-Chalcedonians to prove, from a theological and canonical point of view, that they are heretics, and thus, all that has been said of heretics apply to them: no salvific grace, no sacraments.
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« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2011, 09:55:38 PM »

Dear Fabio,

Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944

If the Archpriests' claim were true, could he give one single reason why a Catholic should convert to Orthodoxy? It seems to me that he, much like *many* Orthodox priests I've met here in Brazil, would just say to the Roman willing to convert: "don't do it. Your church also has salvific grace and valid sacraments. Stay where you are.". Even if the Archpriest doesn't say that in so few words, that's the logical inequivocal conclusion of his words. Also, for the many descedents who stop going to the Orthodox parish because it's too far and the priest too (pejorative adjective of their choice), and start going to the nearest Roman church, what does he have to say besides: "No, you have to go to the Orthodox church because it's the Church of your ancestors?".

Irish Hermit, if the Archpriest's interpretation were true, it would be a *sin* to turn our backs to the real body of Christ, to His real presence just because the leader of the Roman jurisdiction happens to be equivocated on a couple of theological issues. When people ask why Orthodoxy is not stronger in the West today, right there, in that reasoning, is one of the main reasons. Many among us, simply can't come up with a substantial motivation for being Orthodox since the differences between churches would be just the petty stuborness of pious but small people.

There are enough anathemas regarding Rome and the Non-Chalcedonians to prove, from a theological and canonical point of view, that they are heretics, and thus, all that has been said of heretics apply to them: no salvific grace, no sacraments.

A serious problem with Catholics becoming Orthodox is that at some point the person is going to look in the mirror and say "The Catholic Church cannot have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments...If they do then I converted for nothing!!...and THAT cannot be possible!"

That kind of black and white thinking is very destructive to both the individual and to corporate perceptions of what is true and what is not.

It is the kind of thinking that our bi-lateral discussions are eventually going to need to address.
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2011, 10:14:27 PM »

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943



You know, Irish Hermit, that is what I've always believed and the impression I've recieved from being an OO. EOC, OOC and RC sacraments are all valid but there is no Protestant denomiation that has valid sacraments. Also no Protestant can enter the kingdom of heaven (unless he is martyred) but these three groups can enter. I've heard many stories of miracles in the three churches, including some miracles which suggest sainthood. For example, there are people (saints) who recently died in each of these three churches whose bodies are preserved (they didn't rot) to this day.

It is my feeling that no such miracle has happened in any Protestant church. Has anyone heard of any?
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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2011, 10:16:51 PM »

There are enough anathemas regarding Rome and the Non-Chalcedonians to prove, from a theological and canonical point of view, that they are heretics, and thus, all that has been said of heretics apply to them: no salvific grace, no sacraments.

Except that this is not the official teaching of the Russian Orthodox Church.  It acknowledges mysteriological grace in the sacraments of both Roman Catholics and Miaphysites.
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2011, 10:19:39 PM »

Dear Fabio,

Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944

If the Archpriests' claim were true, could he give one single reason why a Catholic should convert to Orthodoxy? It seems to me that he, much like *many* Orthodox priests I've met here in Brazil, would just say to the Roman willing to convert: "don't do it. Your church also has salvific grace and valid sacraments. Stay where you are.". Even if the Archpriest doesn't say that in so few words, that's the logical inequivocal conclusion of his words. Also, for the many descedents who stop going to the Orthodox parish because it's too far and the priest too (pejorative adjective of their choice), and start going to the nearest Roman church, what does he have to say besides: "No, you have to go to the Orthodox church because it's the Church of your ancestors?".

Irish Hermit, if the Archpriest's interpretation were true, it would be a *sin* to turn our backs to the real body of Christ, to His real presence just because the leader of the Roman jurisdiction happens to be equivocated on a couple of theological issues. When people ask why Orthodoxy is not stronger in the West today, right there, in that reasoning, is one of the main reasons. Many among us, simply can't come up with a substantial motivation for being Orthodox since the differences between churches would be just the petty stuborness of pious but small people.

There are enough anathemas regarding Rome and the Non-Chalcedonians to prove, from a theological and canonical point of view, that they are heretics, and thus, all that has been said of heretics apply to them: no salvific grace, no sacraments.

A serious problem with Catholics becoming Orthodox is that at some point the person is going to look in the mirror and say "The Catholic Church cannot have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments...If they do then I converted for nothing!!...and THAT cannot be possible!"

That kind of black and white thinking is very destructive to both the individual and to corporate perceptions of what is true and what is not.

It is the kind of thinking that our bi-lateral discussions are eventually going to need to address.

The Roman Church, as the Non-Chalcedonians and even the Anglicans (until, of course the women/gay ordination thing) have a succession of imposition of hands to the Apostles. But so did the Arians, and Nestorians etc. Apostolic Succession does not equate real sacraments.
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« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2011, 10:25:48 PM »

There are enough anathemas regarding Rome and the Non-Chalcedonians to prove, from a theological and canonical point of view, that they are heretics, and thus, all that has been said of heretics apply to them: no salvific grace, no sacraments.

Except that this is not the official teaching of the Russian Orthodox Church.  It acknowledges mysteriological grace in the sacraments of both Roman Catholics and Miaphysites.

Therefore they don't have any good reason why a Roman or Non-Chalcedonian should convert to Orthodoxy? Their message to Latin-America is "stay where you are". I'll not be surprised if Russia gets consacrated to the "Immaculate Heart" then. Because the Romans do not have this "tolerance" toward us and always come up with several reasons why Romans should not turn to Orthodoxy and Orthodox should convert to their communion.

Plus, if they really believe it, keeping the Pope out of the Orthodox communion is an unnamable blasphemy. Plus, if the Pope, believing what he believes and acting on it, does not loose grace, it's because it's true. The same stands for the Non-Chalcedonians. To say it is true in a "mysterious way" is just to dodge the issue. And dodge in a direction the Fathers didn't in relation to the Non-Chalcedonians and many other authorities didn't either in relation to the Romans.
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« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2011, 10:36:47 PM »


 Apostolic Succession does not equate real sacraments.

The Russian Church teaches that Catholics and Miaphysites have Apostolic Succession and mysteriological grace in their sacraments.

I do not agree. I was taught differently by my spiritual father in the Serbian Church, but I cannot deny that this is what the Russian Church holds (and also a large segment of the Serbian bishops.)

For my views see message 73
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http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35132.msg555976.html#msg555976
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« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2011, 10:58:44 PM »


 Apostolic Succession does not equate real sacraments.

The Russian Church teaches that Catholics and Miaphysites have Apostolic Succession and mysteriological grace in their sacraments.

I do not agree. I was taught differently by my spiritual father in the Serbian Church, but I cannot deny that this is what the Russian Church holds (and also a large segment of the Serbian bishops.)

For my views see message 73
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35132.msg555976.html#msg555976

I understand. Well, the Russian Church just lost a couple of points for me now. Tongue Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate have any similar official statements?
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« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2011, 11:04:28 PM »


 Apostolic Succession does not equate real sacraments.

The Russian Church teaches that Catholics and Miaphysites have Apostolic Succession and mysteriological grace in their sacraments.

I do not agree. I was taught differently by my spiritual father in the Serbian Church, but I cannot deny that this is what the Russian Church holds (and also a large segment of the Serbian bishops.)

For my views see message 73
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35132.msg555976.html#msg555976

I understand. Well, the Russian Church just lost a couple of points for me now. Tongue Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate have any similar official statements?

Hopefully a member of Constantinople will offer an answer.
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« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2011, 12:15:34 AM »

I suppose it depends on one's ecclesiology. It seems that, unfortunately, many Eastern Orthodox have adopted Rome's skewed ecclesiology, where the Church is understood as a worldwide, spatially universal organism made up of all believers, of which our local gatherings are but parts of the whole. In this context, anyone who is not a part of this worldwide organism, i.e. not in "communion", is not part of the Church. But the reality is that every assembly of baptized/chrismated Christians gathered around their bishop to celebrate the Eucharist is the manifestation of the One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church; the eschatological, pre-eternal, mystical Body of Christ. In that sense then, from a truly Orthodox viewpoint, there is no "Orthodox Church" but there are, rather, "Orthodox Churches" who are in communion with one another. It is not the Orthodox Communion that makes up the Body of Christ, the One True Church, it is the local gathering around their bishop for the Eucharistic offering.

In that sense, then, any assembly who has gathered around their bishop (if he has genuine Apostolic succession) in the Eucharistic offering is the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, regardless of whether or not they are in geopolitical communion with the other Catholic Churches. And in some sense, whether or not they hold to heretical beliefs, etc.

An historical example illustrates this well.

In the case of Cornelius and Novation (in the wake of persuctions in the late 3rd century, Rome found herself without a bishop. Cornelius was elected to the episcopacy by the Roman clergy, but a few days later the controversial presbyter Novation announced his own claims and managed to get himself consecrated by three distant Italian bishops) it was obvious who the “real” bishop of Rome was: the one who was recognized by all the other bishops, starting with those who represented the ancient and principal Churches. But what would happen if the episcopate was in fact divided on which bishop to be in communion with? (hint: this happened in Antioch).

Where would the Church be? How could one tell which one of the orthodox bishops was to be sided with? With the strict and pure (Novationists)? With those who went along with the governmental appointees (the Arians)? With those who were in communion with Rome (Paulinus)? Or with those who received support from neighboring bishops (Meletius)? In hindsight, it seems that Meletius can be recognized as the true orthodox and catholic bishop of the Church in Antioch, but does it mean that those who participated in the other Eucharists did not also participate in the invisible and transcendent communion of saints? (After all, St. Jerome was ordained by Paulinus).

Is it personal holiness, orthodoxy of faith, legitimacy of election and consecration or communion with other Churches that determines the true manifestation of Christ’s body in a community?

They aren't easy answers, much as we'd like them to be, but I don't see how one can argue with the fact that we must recognize Rome's sacraments; for she has unquestioned Apostolic succession and does not deny Christ came in the flesh. The actions of hierarchs do not have the power to ontologically affect the Church of Christ. Regardless of what externally or doctrinally divides us, wherever baptized Christians offer the Eucharist around their Apostolic bishop, the One Holy Catholic Church is made manifest and salvation is opened to all.
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« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2011, 05:44:37 PM »

A reminder to our RC posters that this is the Convert Issues board and that the OP asked for an Eastern Orthodox perspective, NOT a Roman Catholic one. Let us therefore keep our posts appropriate. Thank you.
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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2011, 06:04:34 PM »

What do you mean by "valid?"

I don't know what Roman Catholics get when they receive the Eucharist--probably only the form of the sacrament, and not the whole substance, not the body and blood of Christ. But, it's a rather moot point, since the Orthodox Church has all the fullness of Christ, which you won't get anywhere else. There is no sacramental grace outside the Church, and the Church does have clear boundaries. These are generally enshrined in a couple ways--the diptychs of the autocephalous churches, the Orthodox confession of faith, and the faithfulness to holy tradition. So, while some--not Roman Catholics of Protestants, but Orthodox groups not in communion with the other patriarchates--may not be on the diptychs, they have the latter two--iow, they're schismatics, but they are not received through baptism, but through repentance and confession, and sometimes Chrismation. That this is often interpreted very broadly and confusingly today does not do much to illustrate the point.
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« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2011, 06:54:03 PM »

There is no sacramental grace outside the Church, and the Church does have clear boundaries.

Shanghaiski,  please don't take this post of mine as positing any personal belief of mine, but are you as a member of Antioch giving us the teaching of your Patriarch and bishops or do you simply hold a personal position which is at variance with theirs?
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« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2011, 06:58:24 PM »

There is no sacramental grace outside the Church, and the Church does have clear boundaries.

Shanghaiski,  please don't take this post of mine as positing any personal belief of mine, but are you as a member of Antioch giving us the teaching of your Patriarch and bishops or do you simply hold a personal position which is at variance with theirs?

Haha. Yeah, I am not in agreement with several Antiochian policies/practices, but then, not all Antiochian priests and even bishops are. I try to hold to the teaching of the Universal Church. Does the Church teach against what I have said? I have not heard such.
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« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2011, 07:28:04 PM »

God does the last judgement and I did not ask God about validity of sacraments outside Church. So this is from what I read and it can be fantasy.

1.To go to Heaven you need baptism. There are several ways of baptism. Normal baptism is by an eastern orthodox priests from the Church established by Jesus in year 33. Because Baptism is so important God allowed people like me and you that are baptised to perform emergency baptism even if we are no priests and not ordained. However we must specify we baptise in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So protestant baptisms may be in this category. Any baptism beside Eastern Orthodox can be playing dice.

Monks on Athos that speak face to face with Holy Virgin say all baptisms outside Eastern orthodox Chutch are invalid and require new baptism. This is something people need to think about since they are not allowed to lie and also they speak with people from Heaven and angels and they know more. So I would look at them for getting close to the truth.
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« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2011, 07:40:32 PM »

Baptism is not performed actually by people. Baptism and sacraments are perfomed by God. Priest and people allowed to perform baptism, are simply praying to God to come and make the previous man child of God able to enter Heaven.

Something similar with sacraments is Holy water where Priest prays to God to come and bless the water. So in Romano Catholicism there were some changes and water may become spoiled and after changing the blessing of water, the prayers they needed to add salt to preserve water which before was not needed. So changing several words, may mean God is not asked to come and nothing actualy happens even on the surface normal people may not sense any difference. So beautiful Cathedrals, beautiful clothes but on the invisible world things may be bad. So to see what I am talking about take Holy water from Anglicanism and Eastern Orthodox, label them and taste them AFTER 2 months. Also by changing words, and having unordained priests in protestantism things may turn into Blasphemy and people there, participating them may take part into Blasphemy and this is why Eastern orthodox people at least in Romania are cautioned against going to religious meetings outside Eastern Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2011, 08:30:29 PM »

In the end the thing that matter is what Church says.
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« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2011, 08:59:03 PM »

So, what does the Church say?
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« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2011, 09:33:26 PM »

A serious problem with Catholics becoming Orthodox...

The only "serious problem" is that they take too long to realize Orthodoxy is the True Church!

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« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2011, 09:50:35 PM »

If you want to know the truth pray to God:

Dear God please save me and as many humans as possible and also please let me know the truth of all religions and the validity of Romano Catholic sacraments.

God will let you know.

There was on Mount Athos Romano Catholics celebrating with Eastern Orthodox Holy Liturgy, with Eastern Orthodox being forced and God destroyed 2 Churches to show his displeasure and the bodies of people did not decompose but turned black and nails and hair growed having a terible stench . This would be Traditional Romano Catholic before 1450. These bodies are on Mount Athos.

One Eastern Orthodox Chuch went to Romano Catholicism and in Holy liturgy wine became water.

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« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2011, 10:31:02 PM »

This is a vision of St John Kronstadt about a NEW CHURCH and errors named heresies. I don't know if the Church after Vatican II or Protestant Church is what this is about:

http://www.orthodox.net/articles/vision-of-st-john-of-kronstadt.html
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« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2011, 09:39:59 AM »

If you want to know the truth pray to God:

Dear God please save me and as many humans as possible and also please let me know the truth of all religions and the validity of Romano Catholic sacraments.

God will let you know.

There was on Mount Athos Romano Catholics celebrating with Eastern Orthodox Holy Liturgy, with Eastern Orthodox being forced and God destroyed 2 Churches to show his displeasure and the bodies of people did not decompose but turned black and nails and hair growed having a terible stench . This would be Traditional Romano Catholic before 1450. These bodies are on Mount Athos.

One Eastern Orthodox Chuch went to Romano Catholicism and in Holy liturgy wine became water.



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« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2011, 12:01:19 PM »

Monks on Athos that speak face to face with Holy Virgin say all baptisms outside Eastern orthodox Chutch are invalid and require new baptism. This is something people need to think about since they are not allowed to lie and also they speak with people from Heaven and angels and they know more. So I would look at them for getting close to the truth.

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

Are you saying that the Orthodox Church bases its doctrines about the sacraments on private revelations to the Monks of Athos?
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« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2011, 12:26:49 PM »

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

I don't know of any Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes or Fatima.  What are they?
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« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2011, 12:31:20 PM »

If as in the case of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and in the churches of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North America, the baptism of Roman Catholics are accepted for purposes of their conversion to Orthodoxy (wherein the Sacrament of Holy Chrismation is administered), these churches accept the validity of the Roman Catholic Sacrament of Holy Baptism, and thus, the validity of Roman Catholic sacraments, and the work of the Holy Spirit within Catholicism, for Roman Catholics.  I recall there is discussion of the concurrence of both churches in documents issued by the official international dialogue between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.  There is however, as indicated in the discussion of this topic, disagreement within Orthodoxy of this matter.  It should be noted too, that a pan-Orthodox Synod has never deemed Roman Catholicism to be in heresy.
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« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2011, 01:10:58 PM »

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

I don't know of any Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes or Fatima.  What are they?

It is often said in general terms that the Catholic faith is based upon private visions and visionaries.

The two specific things that come to mind are the devotion to the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Conception.

These accusations are often delivered in the most mocking way...I am sure you know what I mean.

M.
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« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2011, 01:12:52 PM »

If as in the case of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and in the churches of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North America, the baptism of Roman Catholics are accepted for purposes of their conversion to Orthodoxy (wherein the Sacrament of Holy Chrismation is administered), these churches accept the validity of the Roman Catholic Sacrament of Holy Baptism, and thus, the validity of Roman Catholic sacraments, and the work of the Holy Spirit within Catholicism, for Roman Catholics.  I recall there is discussion of the concurrence of both churches in documents issued by the official international dialogue between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.  There is however, as indicated in the discussion of this topic, disagreement within Orthodoxy of this matter.  It should be noted too, that a pan-Orthodox Synod has never deemed Roman Catholicism to be in heresy.

We have a very missionary minded Greek Metropolitan Amphilochios here, a holy bishop, and he has built concrete baptismal fonts around the country and on the islands. He says that all Catholics are unbaptized and he and his priests baptize them.  

There is no uniform teaching on this matter in the Ecumenical Patriarchate (although much can be explained if we bring in the theory of "economia.")

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« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2011, 01:16:46 PM »

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

I don't know of any Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes or Fatima.  What are they?

It is often said in general terms that the Catholic faith is based upon private visions and visionaries.

The two specific things that come to mind are the devotion to the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Conception.

These accusations are often delivered in the most mocking way...I am sure you know what I mean.

M.

My apologies!  When theistgal said 'doctrines' I took her to mean 'doctrines.'  I did not realise that word covers 'devotions' as well. So much to learn about Catholicism <sigh>
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« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2011, 01:21:47 PM »

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

I don't know of any Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes or Fatima.  What are they?

It is often said in general terms that the Catholic faith is based upon private visions and visionaries.

The two specific things that come to mind are the devotion to the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Conception.

These accusations are often delivered in the most mocking way...I am sure you know what I mean.

M.

My apologies!  When theistgal said 'doctrines' I took her to mean 'doctrines.'  I did not realise that word covers 'devotions' as well. So much to learn about Catholicism <sigh>

 laugh laugh laugh

Nice try!!...It is the Orthodox who are most strident who can't seem to make any kind of distinction about the Catholic Church, the Church of my Baptism, with respect to faith, doctrine, dogma or devotion...It all gets stirred up into the same stinking negative stew...and you are a ring leader in pot-stirring... laugh
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« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2011, 01:30:26 PM »

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

I don't know of any Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes or Fatima.  What are they?

It is often said in general terms that the Catholic faith is based upon private visions and visionaries.

The two specific things that come to mind are the devotion to the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Conception.

These accusations are often delivered in the most mocking way...I am sure you know what I mean.

M.

My apologies!  When theistgal said 'doctrines' I took her to mean 'doctrines.'  I did not realise that word covers 'devotions' as well. So much to learn about Catholicism <sigh>

 laugh laugh laugh

Nice try!!...It is the Orthodox who are most strident who can't seem to make any kind of distinction about the Catholic Church, the Church of my Baptism, with respect to faith, doctrine, dogma or devotion...It all gets stirred up into the same stinking negative stew...and you are a ring leader in pot-stirring... laugh

May I ever sit at your ancient feet!   laugh

You were the one who knew theistgal was speaking of 'doctrines' and you fudged it and skewed and pretended she was speaking about 'devotions.'   
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« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2011, 01:35:00 PM »

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

I don't know of any Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes or Fatima.  What are they?

It is often said in general terms that the Catholic faith is based upon private visions and visionaries.

The two specific things that come to mind are the devotion to the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Conception.

These accusations are often delivered in the most mocking way...I am sure you know what I mean.

M.


My apologies!  When theistgal said 'doctrines' I took her to mean 'doctrines.'  I did not realise that word covers 'devotions' as well. So much to learn about Catholicism <sigh>

 laugh laugh laugh

Nice try!!...It is the Orthodox who are most strident who can't seem to make any kind of distinction about the Catholic Church, the Church of my Baptism, with respect to faith, doctrine, dogma or devotion...It all gets stirred up into the same stinking negative stew...and you are a ring leader in pot-stirring... laugh

May I ever sit at your ancient feet!   laugh

You were the one who knew theistgal was speaking of 'doctrines' and you fudged it and skewed and pretended she was speaking about 'devotions.'    

I have an 80 year old mother messin' with my head these days as she comes out of three pretty substantial surgeries and attending narcotics...So that's all I need of elder abuse for the time being... laugh...thanks!!

LOL.....
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« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2011, 02:23:28 PM »

If as in the case of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and in the churches of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North America, the baptism of Roman Catholics are accepted for purposes of their conversion to Orthodoxy (wherein the Sacrament of Holy Chrismation is administered), these churches accept the validity of the Roman Catholic Sacrament of Holy Baptism, and thus, the validity of Roman Catholic sacraments, and the work of the Holy Spirit within Catholicism, for Roman Catholics.  I recall there is discussion of the concurrence of both churches in documents issued by the official international dialogue between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.  There is however, as indicated in the discussion of this topic, disagreement within Orthodoxy of this matter.  It should be noted too, that a pan-Orthodox Synod has never deemed Roman Catholicism to be in heresy.
Council of Constantinople IV 879.  Condemned the Filioque and those who held it.

Council of Constantinople V 1341 and 1351.  Condemned the teachings of the Vatican as expoused by Balaam of Calabria.

The Council of Constantinople c. 1453.  Condemned Florence, and the ecclesial communion which held it.

Council of Iaşi /Jassy 1642.  Approved "Orthodox Confession of the Catholic Church" of Met. St. Peter Movila/Mohyla/Moghila only after Vaticanisms removed from it.

Synod of Jerusalem 1672.  Reaffirmed Council of Iaşi.  Condemned in the main the Vatican's Calvinist cousins, but the Vatican comes into question, e.g. "Further, that by the word TRANSUBSTANTIATION the manner in which the bread and the wine are transmade into the body and blood of the Lord is not explained; for this is altogether incomprehensible and is impossible except for God Himself; and attempts at explanation bring Christians to folly and error." The Vatican at Trent had already dogmatized transubstantiation.

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« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2011, 02:31:19 PM »

Monks on Athos that speak face to face with Holy Virgin say all baptisms outside Eastern orthodox Chutch are invalid and require new baptism. This is something people need to think about since they are not allowed to lie and also they speak with people from Heaven and angels and they know more. So I would look at them for getting close to the truth.

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

Are you saying that the Orthodox Church bases its doctrines about the sacraments on private revelations to the Monks of Athos?
I'll "poke fun" at that. If an angel of light preaches another Gospel, let him be accursed.

If they had private revelations, that motivate them to defend the Orthodox Faith, all well and good.  IF they attempt to offer such "revelations" as precedence, evidence and proof of their position, well they subject themselves to the penalty of a false prophet.

Mt. Athos is not so holy that there hasn't been a monk that has fallen.  I know that from the stories of Athonite supporters on monks who fell.
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« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2011, 02:32:46 PM »

Yes, Holy Orthodoxy condemns the innovative teachings, practices, and for that matter later day dogma of Roman Catholicism.  I only pointed out that a pan-Orthodox Synod has not gone so far as to deem Roman Catholic's, heretics; it has not deemed their church "to be in heresy."

Also, another example of Orthodoxy's acceptance of Roman Catholicism's sacraments is the practice of ordination (that is perhaps not the correct term) into Orthodoxy of Roman Catholic clergy by vesting.  I don't think it's a common practice in Orthodoxy, but a church as prominent as the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) uses this practice from what I've seen.
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« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2011, 02:35:17 PM »

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

I don't know of any Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes or Fatima.  What are they?
Lourdes has been used as a support of the IC, as the "apparition" identified herself as the "Immaculate Conception." Going a step further, Maximmillian Kolbe bases his "Immaculata" on the words of the apparition of Lourdes.

Purgatory has been defended on the basis that several "visionaries" (Fatima?  Definitely, it is claimed of the nun of the "Divine Mercy.") were shown it by their "apparitions."
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« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2011, 02:40:10 PM »

I do not believe they are valid.  If I did, I would partake of them.  It would have been far easier for my family to join the RC rather than the EO.
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« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2011, 02:48:54 PM »

 I only pointed out that a pan-Orthodox Synod has not gone so far as to deem Roman Catholics heretics; it has not deemed their church "to be in heresy."

This is not the purpose of ecumenical or pan-Orthodox synods.
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« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2011, 02:50:36 PM »

I do not believe they are valid.  If I did, I would partake of them.  It would have been far easier for my family to join the RC rather than the EO.

Indeed.

Even when we have received people by economia, this is not an unequivocal acceptance that there are actual, grace-filled sacraments outside the canonical boundaries of the Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2011, 03:00:18 PM »

I do not believe they are valid.  If I did, I would partake of them.  It would have been far easier for my family to join the RC rather than the EO.

Indeed.

Even when we have received people by economia, this is not an unequivocal acceptance that there are actual, grace-filled sacraments outside the canonical boundaries of the Orthodox Churches.

Unless of course you are Russian...
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« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2011, 03:04:48 PM »

Re. Reply No. 49

What happened to those who did not accept the doctrines of the Ecumenical Synods (Councils) of the first millennium?  Any "matter of common concern" can be addressed by a pan-Orthodox Synod, if the churches represented agree to the topic.
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« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2011, 03:08:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



A serious problem with Catholics becoming Orthodox is that at some point the person is going to look in the mirror and say "The Catholic Church cannot have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments...If they do then I converted for nothing!!...and THAT cannot be possible!"

That kind of black and white thinking is very destructive to both the individual and to corporate perceptions of what is true and what is not.

It is the kind of thinking that our bi-lateral discussions are eventually going to need to address.
Amen Amen!

The entire problem with ecumenism today and in the past is that folks on all sides of the discussions have the obvious bias that they inflect their own jurisdictions to be the only valid jurisdictions.  Now in the 5th century after "legalization" of Christianity we began this silly fight for supremacy within the Churches, be it from Roman instigation or Constantinople, or when Alexandria decides to be the self-proclaimed boss, or what about those pesky Nestorians hiding in the environs of Syria? The reality of the matter is that we either reinvent Orthodox to say, "Only one jurisdiction is the correct jurisdiction" or we learn what the Fathers believed BEFORE any schisms found their way into the Universal Church.

Why is it the Universal Church? Simply because the Grace of the Divine Mysteries/Sacraments transcends geography, politics, or theological disputation.  This is what the Fathers implied with a Universal Church, that despite any human differences, the Church remains what it is across time and space and beyond.  In the Kingdom of God and here on the Earth, there is ONE Church, just as there is ONE God, and yet clearly history has shown that like our Triune God is manifested in Three Persons with One Source, so to has our ONE, UNIVERSAL Church been manifested into multiple jurisdictions with God as our unifying Source.  

The first four hundred years of Christian fathers didn't seem to have as much of a line in the sand problem about this as we do since the first schisms.  We used to fellowship as equals, despite our variable differences.  

The solution today? To readjust to the initial attitudes of the fathers, and to again learn to respect each other as equals.  This means Romans and Byzantines should stop vaunting over the rest of Christendom, and we Oriental need to come off our high horses as well.

We obviously had several differences before any Schisms, but these were only exasperated when they were codified and institutionalized as such in the process of Schism.

Heresy is a strong appellation, and rightfully belongs to some rogue or renegade priests and theologians who misguide their flocks, but clearly after so many hundreds of years of continuation, we can all agree that whether RC, EO, or OO, it is hard to attribute our differences solely to a few bad-apple heretic priests and bishops leading the flocks astray as in other heresy movements which collapse under their own inherent falsehoods.  Rather, time and history has demonstrated as we always knew, the Church is a Body with several connected body parts each with their own important function, and these body parts are the jurisdictions.  

I say the Catholic Sacraments are valid for those called to be Catholics, the Byzantine Mysteries are valid for those called to be Byzantine, and the Oriental Mysteries are valid for those called to be Oriental, however if we keep sticking our tongues out and jeering at each other like children in the back seat of the family station wagon then surely we will just continue to look as silly as that. We should not try to convert or preach to other jurisdictions aside from the spirit of fellowship.  We should not then suppose that these other jurisdictions are invalid and open territory as this utterly disrespected these already established communions.  Rather, its  just as the Apostle Paul taught us by his example in Romans 15

Quote
"It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.  Rather, as it is written:

   “Those who were not told about him will see,
   and those who have not heard will understand.”

  This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2011, 03:13:28 PM »

Who are you?  You are such a lovely soul!!...There is great peace and hope in your being as far as I can see from here...and I love it!!

M.

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



A serious problem with Catholics becoming Orthodox is that at some point the person is going to look in the mirror and say "The Catholic Church cannot have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments...If they do then I converted for nothing!!...and THAT cannot be possible!"

That kind of black and white thinking is very destructive to both the individual and to corporate perceptions of what is true and what is not.

It is the kind of thinking that our bi-lateral discussions are eventually going to need to address.
Amen Amen!

The entire problem with ecumenism today and in the past is that folks on all sides of the discussions have the obvious bias that they inflect their own jurisdictions to be the only valid jurisdictions.  Now in the 5th century after "legalization" of Christianity we began this silly fight for supremacy within the Churches, be it from Roman instigation or Constantinople, or when Alexandria decides to be the self-proclaimed boss, or what about those pesky Nestorians hiding in the environs of Syria? The reality of the matter is that we either reinvent Orthodox to say, "Only one jurisdiction is the correct jurisdiction" or we learn what the Fathers believed BEFORE any schisms found their way into the Universal Church.

Why is it the Universal Church? Simply because the Grace of the Divine Mysteries/Sacraments transcends geography, politics, or theological disputation.  This is what the Fathers implied with a Universal Church, that despite any human differences, the Church remains what it is across time and space and beyond.  In the Kingdom of God and here on the Earth, there is ONE Church, just as there is ONE God, and yet clearly history has shown that like our Triune God is manifested in Three Persons with One Source, so to has our ONE, UNIVERSAL Church been manifested into multiple jurisdictions with God as our unifying Source.  

The first four hundred years of Christian fathers didn't seem to have as much of a line in the sand problem about this as we do since the first schisms.  We used to fellowship as equals, despite our variable differences.  

The solution today? To readjust to the initial attitudes of the fathers, and to again learn to respect each other as equals.  This means Romans and Byzantines should stop vaunting over the rest of Christendom, and we Oriental need to come off our high horses as well.

We obviously had several differences before any Schisms, but these were only exasperated when they were codified and institutionalized as such in the process of Schism.

Heresy is a strong appellation, and rightfully belongs to some rogue or renegade priests and theologians who misguide their flocks, but clearly after so many hundreds of years of continuation, we can all agree that whether RC, EO, or OO, it is hard to attribute our differences solely to a few bad-apple heretic priests and bishops leading the flocks astray as in other heresy movements which collapse under their own inherent falsehoods.  Rather, time and history has demonstrated as we always knew, the Church is a Body with several connected body parts each with their own important function, and these body parts are the jurisdictions.  

I say the Catholic Sacraments are valid for those called to be Catholics, the Byzantine Mysteries are valid for those called to be Byzantine, and the Oriental Mysteries are valid for those called to be Oriental, however if we keep sticking our tongues out and jeering at each other like children in the back seat of the family station wagon then surely we will just continue to look as silly as that. We should not try to convert or preach to other jurisdictions aside from the spirit of fellowship, just as the Apostle Paul taught us by his example in Romans 15

Quote
"It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.  Rather, as it is written:

   “Those who were not told about him will see,
   and those who have not heard will understand.”

  This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2011, 05:16:02 PM »

Then how do you explain this:

1. On Mount Athos The Emperor comes with Romano Catholic priests and orders Eastern orthodox monks to celebrate Holy Liturgy. Some monks accept and God destroys the Church, Emperor escaping.
The Emperor is not convinced. He gathers Eastern orthodox monks and forces them to celebrate again with Romano Catholics and God again destroys ANOTHER Church.

How do you explain this?

The bodies of monks celebrating with Romano Catholics stinck and until now the nails and hair grow.I heard that European Union puts some money and bodies are put in a cave and entrance is closed. However the story is there.

So you say, same Churcvh however God destroys Church when Eastern orthodox and Romano Catholics celebrate Holy Liturgy.

Today you discuss with me. After 100 years you'll discuss with God.
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« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2011, 05:18:46 PM »

With God, of course, there will be somethings wonderful to discuss!!.... angel

Then how do you explain this:

1. On Mount Athos The Emperor comes with Romano Catholic priests and orders Eastern orthodox monks to celebrate Holy Liturgy. Some monks accept and God destroys the Church, Emperor escaping.
The Emperor is not convinced. He gathers Eastern orthodox monks and forces them to celebrate again with Romano Catholics and God again destroys ANOTHER Church.

How do you explain this?

The bodies of monks celebrating with Romano Catholics stinck and until now the nails and hair grow.I heard that European Union puts some money and bodies are put ion a cave and entrance is closed. However the story is there.

So you say, same Churcvh however God destroys Church when Eastern orthodox and Romano Catholics celebrate Holy Liturgy.

Today you discuss with me. After 100 years you'll discuss with God.
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« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2011, 05:28:03 PM »

I hope everybody and everyone of us will be OK.

Story2:

Jerusalem, Crusade is victorious and Jerusalem has an Romano Catholic King. He orders Romano Catholic come with Eastern orthodox in Church waiting for Holy Light. The Holy Light does not appear so Romano Catholics exit the Church and in desperation go on Jerusalem decrying that Romano Catholicism is not the True Faith. After leaving The Church Holy Light comes to Eastern orthodox.

Story 3:

Eastern orthodox Church comes into Romano CAtholicism and celebrate Holy Liturgy. However after going to Romano Catholicism, after Consecration wine becomes water. The Bishop decries going to Romano Catholicism and the change of wine into water.

Holy Water is another thing.


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« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2011, 06:12:12 PM »

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

I don't know of any Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes or Fatima.  What are they?
Lourdes has been used as a support of the IC, as the "apparition" identified herself as the "Immaculate Conception."

Well aware of that-a good Catholic schooling.  laugh  Lourdes took place *after* the papal definition of the IC had been infallibly proclaimed.

So I am interested in the claim that there are Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes and Fatima. There simply isn't one but I am open to learning....
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« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2011, 06:25:11 PM »

So...wait...somewhere above someone mentioned that the monks talk to St. Mary face to face.....or did I totally misread that?
PP
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« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2011, 06:40:56 PM »

Bravo!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



A serious problem with Catholics becoming Orthodox is that at some point the person is going to look in the mirror and say "The Catholic Church cannot have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments...If they do then I converted for nothing!!...and THAT cannot be possible!"

That kind of black and white thinking is very destructive to both the individual and to corporate perceptions of what is true and what is not.

It is the kind of thinking that our bi-lateral discussions are eventually going to need to address.
Amen Amen!

The entire problem with ecumenism today and in the past is that folks on all sides of the discussions have the obvious bias that they inflect their own jurisdictions to be the only valid jurisdictions.  Now in the 5th century after "legalization" of Christianity we began this silly fight for supremacy within the Churches, be it from Roman instigation or Constantinople, or when Alexandria decides to be the self-proclaimed boss, or what about those pesky Nestorians hiding in the environs of Syria? The reality of the matter is that we either reinvent Orthodox to say, "Only one jurisdiction is the correct jurisdiction" or we learn what the Fathers believed BEFORE any schisms found their way into the Universal Church.

Why is it the Universal Church? Simply because the Grace of the Divine Mysteries/Sacraments transcends geography, politics, or theological disputation.  This is what the Fathers implied with a Universal Church, that despite any human differences, the Church remains what it is across time and space and beyond.  In the Kingdom of God and here on the Earth, there is ONE Church, just as there is ONE God, and yet clearly history has shown that like our Triune God is manifested in Three Persons with One Source, so to has our ONE, UNIVERSAL Church been manifested into multiple jurisdictions with God as our unifying Source.  

The first four hundred years of Christian fathers didn't seem to have as much of a line in the sand problem about this as we do since the first schisms.  We used to fellowship as equals, despite our variable differences.  

The solution today? To readjust to the initial attitudes of the fathers, and to again learn to respect each other as equals.  This means Romans and Byzantines should stop vaunting over the rest of Christendom, and we Oriental need to come off our high horses as well.

We obviously had several differences before any Schisms, but these were only exasperated when they were codified and institutionalized as such in the process of Schism.

Heresy is a strong appellation, and rightfully belongs to some rogue or renegade priests and theologians who misguide their flocks, but clearly after so many hundreds of years of continuation, we can all agree that whether RC, EO, or OO, it is hard to attribute our differences solely to a few bad-apple heretic priests and bishops leading the flocks astray as in other heresy movements which collapse under their own inherent falsehoods.  Rather, time and history has demonstrated as we always knew, the Church is a Body with several connected body parts each with their own important function, and these body parts are the jurisdictions.  

I say the Catholic Sacraments are valid for those called to be Catholics, the Byzantine Mysteries are valid for those called to be Byzantine, and the Oriental Mysteries are valid for those called to be Oriental, however if we keep sticking our tongues out and jeering at each other like children in the back seat of the family station wagon then surely we will just continue to look as silly as that. We should not try to convert or preach to other jurisdictions aside from the spirit of fellowship.  We should not then suppose that these other jurisdictions are invalid and open territory as this utterly disrespected these already established communions.  Rather, its  just as the Apostle Paul taught us by his example in Romans 15

Quote
"It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.  Rather, as it is written:

   “Those who were not told about him will see,
   and those who have not heard will understand.”

  This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2011, 06:59:32 PM »

So...wait...somewhere above someone mentioned that the monks talk to St. Mary face to face.....or did I totally misread that?
PP
No you heard it well.
Even in Romania I was told by a monk there are several monks that saw Saint Mary.
Here a monk saw Holy Trinity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcFHVhhwgq8 min 4:50
Here Mother of God appeared and left a footprint in rock on Moldavia monastery min 1:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV6eQLLjwS4
Here a monk staying for 20 years in wilderness say that is possible to speak with God: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7kreDRzgQ

Stages of prayer: http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/rugaciune.htm in romanian by Elder Cleopa that you saw in a movie above and that I met personally.
Stage 1. prayer of lips
Stage 2. prayer of mind
Stage 3. prayer of heart, When mind goes into hearth. Maybe 1 in 10 000 go here.
Stage 4. self moving prayer when hearth prays itself. Maybe one in nation may be here. This is what I believe that hermit above was speaking about.
Stage 5. vision prayer. Who has this prayer has opening the eye of soul and can see the other world, angels, past, future, sins, everywhere on Earth,.
Stage 6. Extasy prayer when hands and face glowes like fire, mind goes to Heaven like prayer of St Elijah
Stage 7. Spiritual prayer when man is taken to Heaven and sees heaven. This is Union withb God from this life if I understand correctly.

The stages I took them from romanian text above. Or here I post it again: http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/rugaciune.htm
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« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2011, 07:18:46 PM »

Interesting!  I've seen other Eastern Orthodox posters here at OC.net make fun of the RC's for basing doctrines on private revelations, such as Lourdes or Fatima.

I don't know of any Catholic doctrines based on Lourdes or Fatima.  What are they?

I'm not saying they are, and I don't think they are.

But I have seen posters here at OC.net say that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was based on the visions at Lourdes (despite the fact that the doctrine was proclaimed 4 years *before* Lourdes). 

And frankly, when I hear anyone (Catholic or Orthodox) say that the Blessed Virgin Mary spoke directly to them, even someone as holy as a monk on Athos, I take it with a very large grain of salt and require a whole heckuva lotta proof. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2011, 07:30:45 PM »

That is because you have not met Father Arsenie Boca or somebody like him that could tell you the past, your sins, your name, thoughts and many other things. In think he was stage 5 or above. Somebody saw him when praying and having fire around him until he stopped praying.

Anyhow the best book to understand prayer is Philokalia that is the book read by the russian  pilgrim from book: The Way of Pilgrim. Father Arsenie Boca was was part of team translating Philokalia into Romanian.
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« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2011, 07:31:02 PM »

I hope everybody and everyone of us will be OK.

Story2:

Jerusalem, Crusade is victorious and Jerusalem has an Romano Catholic King. He orders Romano Catholic come with Eastern orthodox in Church waiting for Holy Light. The Holy Light does not appear so Romano Catholics exit the Church and in desperation go on Jerusalem decrying that Romano Catholicism is not the True Faith. After leaving The Church Holy Light comes to Eastern orthodox.

Story 3:

Eastern orthodox Church comes into Romano CAtholicism and celebrate Holy Liturgy. However after going to Romano Catholicism, after Consecration wine becomes water. The Bishop decries going to Romano Catholicism and the change of wine into water.

Holy Water is another thing.



Jannes and Jambres
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« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2011, 07:36:49 PM »

Nope . Is God.

There is no reason for God doing miracles when God and man were far away and now when men can become children of God, God to stop doing miracles. This is Protestant baggage.

Father Arsenie Boca, 20 years after death http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3MxO567C3I
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« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2011, 07:37:42 PM »

That is because you have not met Father Arsenie Boca or somebody like him that could tell you the past, your sins, your name, thoughts and many other things. In think he was stage 5 or above. Somebody saw him when praying and having fire around him until he stopped praying.

Nope, I've never met anyone who could do that.  I've met a lot of people who claimed they could do that, but it always turned out there was some trick to it.

I'm not saying the person you're talking about was deceitful, just that I am skeptical of people who claim psychic abilities - seems too gnostic for me.
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« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2011, 07:41:57 PM »

Psychic I believe is from bad side.

Gifted people from God obtain this through prayer.

Your confirming what I said. would you met somebody like Arsenie Boca that did miracles like in the Bible in face of Romanians, you would change your world view. I believe Greec had eleder Paisios.

Ok. There is one thing you can do and see for yourself.

Saint Spyridon, dead in 300's. even now his body is in good state like a living person that is asleep. Anyhow his body is missing from Church days at the time and when he returns his shoes are muddy and every year his shoes are changed.

I am not speaking aboout people moving mountains through prayer that had faith like a mustard seed since this can be too much for people with Protestant Baggage.
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« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2011, 07:42:54 PM »

Quote
No you heard it well.
Even in Romania I was told by a monk there are several monks that saw Saint Mary.
Here a monk saw Holy Trinity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcFHVhhwgq8 min 4:50
Here Mother of God appeared and left a footprint in rock on Moldavia monastery min 1:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV6eQLLjwS4
Here a monk staying for 20 years in wilderness say that is possible to speak with God: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7kreDRzgQ

Stages of prayer: http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/rugaciune.htm in romanian by Elder Cleopa that you saw in a movie above and that I met personally.
Stage 1. prayer of lips
Stage 2. prayer of mind
Stage 3. prayer of heart, When mind goes into hearth. Maybe 1 in 10 000 go here.
Stage 4. self moving prayer when hearth prays itself. Maybe one in nation may be here. This is what I believe that hermit above was speaking about.
Stage 5. vision prayer. Who has this prayer has opening the eye of soul and can see the other world, angels, past, future, sins, everywhere on Earth,.
Stage 6. Extasy prayer when hands and face glowes like fire, mind goes to Heaven like prayer of St Elijah
Stage 7. Spiritual prayer when man is taken to Heaven and sees heaven. This is Union withb God from this life if I understand correctly.
Please dont take this the wrong way, but 2 things:

1. Is there documentation (as in a council) affirming this prayer step stuff?
2. I am heavily skeptical of Mary or anyone leave footprints, appearing in a vision etc. If people want to believe it, thats fine. But I would figure Mary is a little too busy praying to the Lord for us to show up in Moldavia leaving footprints....

PP
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« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2011, 07:43:41 PM »

Psychic is from bad side.

Gifted people from God obtain this through prayer.

Your confirming what I said. would you met somebody like Arsenie Boca that did miracles like in the Bible in face of Romanians, you would change your world view. I believe Greec had eleder Paisios.

Since he died in 1989, I don't think it's possible for me to meet him.  If you know someone in Southern California, let me know.  Cool

By the way, is all this about mystics the official teaching of Orthodoxy or just your opinion?  thanks.
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« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2011, 07:49:57 PM »

Quote
No you heard it well.
Even in Romania I was told by a monk there are several monks that saw Saint Mary.
Here a monk saw Holy Trinity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcFHVhhwgq8 min 4:50
Here Mother of God appeared and left a footprint in rock on Moldavia monastery min 1:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV6eQLLjwS4
Here a monk staying for 20 years in wilderness say that is possible to speak with God: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7kreDRzgQ

Stages of prayer: http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/rugaciune.htm in romanian by Elder Cleopa that you saw in a movie above and that I met personally.
Stage 1. prayer of lips
Stage 2. prayer of mind
Stage 3. prayer of heart, When mind goes into hearth. Maybe 1 in 10 000 go here.
Stage 4. self moving prayer when hearth prays itself. Maybe one in nation may be here. This is what I believe that hermit above was speaking about.
Stage 5. vision prayer. Who has this prayer has opening the eye of soul and can see the other world, angels, past, future, sins, everywhere on Earth,.
Stage 6. Extasy prayer when hands and face glowes like fire, mind goes to Heaven like prayer of St Elijah
Stage 7. Spiritual prayer when man is taken to Heaven and sees heaven. This is Union withb God from this life if I understand correctly.
Please dont take this the wrong way, but 2 things:

1. Is there documentation (as in a council) affirming this prayer step stuff?
2. I am heavily skeptical of Mary or anyone leave footprints, appearing in a vision etc. If people want to believe it, thats fine. But I would figure Mary is a little too busy praying to the Lord for us to show up in Moldavia leaving footprints....

PP

There was a council when they discussed and validated the mystical experiences. Gregory Palama on one side and a man that wanted to find God through mind and spoke against Hesychasm . Fifth Council of Constantinople
Stages of prayer is the experience of people having unceasing prayer, experience collected across hundreds of year. These particular stages are not dogma however if you want to go forward in prayer is good to find out what practitioners and explorers say about this. Stages of prayer are from ELDER CLEOPA a man that liked to read from religious documents, some of them from all across ortodoxy both in time and space that spent in forest several years in prayer.
I believe if you pray to Jesus to come to you and for you to see Jesus or Saint Mary or an angel this will happen. If you do that , pray so thar this will be with benefit to you.
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« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2011, 07:57:41 PM »

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There was a council when they discussed and validated the mystical experiences. Gregory Palama on one side and a man that wanted to find God through mind and spoke against isihasm. Fifth Council of Constantinople
Ah im reading about that now in the book Im reading. Hesychasm I think is what it was called. I was unaware that the 5th council stated that there were all these levels and you can be whisked into Heaven and all that. I would like some clarification on that as thats nowhere in the book Im reading (at least not yet - Orthodox Church by Met. Ware).

PP
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« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2011, 08:03:33 PM »

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There was a council when they discussed and validated the mystical experiences. Gregory Palama on one side and a man that wanted to find God through mind and spoke against isihasm. Fifth Council of Constantinople
Ah im reading about that now in the book Im reading. Hesychasm I think is what it was called. I was unaware that the 5th council stated that there were all these levels and you can be whisked into Heaven and all that. I would like some clarification on that as thats nowhere in the book Im reading (at least not yet - Orthodox Church by Met. Ware).

PP
Nope. I believe Fifth Council validated Hesychasm not these levels of prayers and what happens at every level. I believe these levels of prayers to be a result of Hesychasm.
Elder Cleopa that wrote the document spent several years in forest just in prayer and had many christian documents from Early Church into his hand.
This movie is about stages of prayer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOGXdLoNl2w

Anyhow this thread is about milk and I am giving hard stuff and many inquirers may not be prepared right now. In around 2000 years of Christianity some interesting stuff was collected.

How can anyone say miracles do not happen when changing the bread and wine into body and blood of Jesus happen at Holy Liturgy on Sundays. The idea is this, it is possible from this life to speak face to face to God and to have the soul vision open. Right now there is dirt on soul vision that gets cleared thorugh prayer. I will tell you one account and I do not expect you to believe me. I did go to a monk and I asked him to pray to me to God and several days after this I was speaking with Jesus face to face. I can not prove this to you. You can believe me or not . I believe the monk prayed to Jesus for me and the monk name was Theophilus that is The one that loves God.
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« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2011, 08:24:34 PM »

That is because you have not met Father Arsenie Boca or somebody like him that could tell you the past, your sins, your name, thoughts and many other things. In think he was stage 5 or above. Somebody saw him when praying and having fire around him until he stopped praying.

Anyhow the best book to understand prayer is Philokalia that is the book read by the russian  pilgrim from book: The Way of Pilgrim. Father Arsenie Boca was was part of team translating Philokalia into Romanian.

Stage 5... Tongue
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« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2011, 08:26:14 PM »

And frankly, when I hear anyone (Catholic or Orthodox) say that the Blessed Virgin Mary spoke directly to them, even someone as holy as a monk on Athos, I take it with a very large grain of salt and require a whole heckuva lotta proof. Roll Eyes

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« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2011, 08:34:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Then how do you explain this:

1. On Mount Athos The Emperor comes with Romano Catholic priests and orders Eastern orthodox monks to celebrate Holy Liturgy. Some monks accept and God destroys the Church, Emperor escaping.
The Emperor is not convinced. He gathers Eastern orthodox monks and forces them to celebrate again with Romano Catholics and God again destroys ANOTHER Church.

How do you explain this?

The bodies of monks celebrating with Romano Catholics stinck and until now the nails and hair grow.I heard that European Union puts some money and bodies are put in a cave and entrance is closed. However the story is there.

So you say, same Churcvh however God destroys Church when Eastern orthodox and Romano Catholics celebrate Holy Liturgy.

Today you discuss with me. After 100 years you'll discuss with God.

No disrespect but that is superstitiously simplistic.  By your own logic the RC is valid because it still exists after nearly two-thousand years, the same with each other other jurisdictions.  If Divine Justice is the end all of supposedly heretical jurisdictions, how come God hasn't destroyed the Roman Catholic Church or the Coptic Church outright?


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #76 on: July 29, 2011, 08:35:49 PM »



Is that a subtle crack about my weight?   Grin   Grin   Grin   Wink
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« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2011, 08:43:11 PM »

Maybe Mount Athos is the Garden of Holy Mother of God so there decisions are made swiftly.

The true worry is the account with Holy Water I was speaking about where God was asked which between Roman Catholicism and Eastern orthodoxy is True Church and the answer FROM GOD , both priests groups praying was EASTERN ORTHODOXY.
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« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2011, 08:46:53 PM »

Reminder No. 2 to our Roman and Eastern Catholic posters that this is the Convert Issues board, a place for "discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith." Since I don't see any reason right now to either move or split this thread, I am going to defer such a decision to this section's moderator. Until such time that Thomas decides that parts of this discussion need to go somewhere else, you who represent traditions outside those of the Orthodox Church are permitted to post on this thread ONLY to correct misconceptions of your faith. Any other presentation of the tenets of your faith is forbidden here, and, since this is now the second time I've had to say this, formal warnings and post moderation will be handed out to specific individuals who disregard this directive.

As a general warning to all of you, the Convert Issues section is also not the place for serious debate. (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9810.0.html) If you wish to engage any point on this thread in a more focused debate, please PM the moderators to let us know so we can split or move this thread for that purpose. Until then, please keep your posts on this thread appropriately simple and easy for those new to the Orthodox Faith to understand. Thank you.

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« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2011, 08:57:05 PM »


1. Is there documentation (as in a council) affirming this prayer step stuff?


The idea of stages in the spiritual life is patristic...that is real enough.  But it is not something that can be "measured" as in the minds of ordinary people weighing in apples and cabbages.

Read St. Gregory Nyssa's The Life of Moses...That is where it begins.
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« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2011, 09:02:36 PM »

Here is an account of St Mary speaking face to face with a man in Athens Greece. She informed the man that a lady was dying and that he needs to ask the priest to go to that lady with Holy Communion. The story is very interesting http://engforum.pravda.ru/index.php?/topic/169572-crazy-john-an-athenian-fool-for-christ/:
""One afternoon, Crazy John was standing in front of the icon of the Holy Mother. I was in the office. I could hear him talking and I could hear -without seeing- that he was conversing with a woman, I paid no attention. When I came out of the office, I could see only Crazy John, and there was nobody else inside the church. The sacristan was away on an errand. Crazy John approached me and, after prostrating himself before me as he usually did, he said:

--'Father, you should go to Mrs.Stamata after Vespers. She is waiting for you to give her Holy Communion because her hours are numbered and she may not make it through tonight."

--"And how do you know this?" I asked him.

--"A woman told me, a while ago", Crazy John replied.

--"And why on earth didn't she come and inform me?"

--"Well, she must have thought I was the sacristan" he said, and departed immediately afterwards.

I have a clear view of the main entrance of the church from my office, and I didn't see any woman entering. But even so, I didn't give it much thought...After Vespers, I went to Stamata's house. Her daughter was astounded when she saw me, as she was planning to come and notify me the next day so that her mother can receive Holy Communion, and not oblige me to go there in the night. I entered Stamata's room and gave her Holy Communion. She thanked me, and held my hand for a short while, then said to me, breathing with difficulty:

"

I would say stage 6 now that I am thinking better. Anyhow if anyone gets serious on prayer Philokalia is the best book. I believe it is written by several monks, and that one of them moved Mountains with prayer, having faith like a mustard seed.

Anyhow for people comming to True Church, being doutbtfull is something however being disrespectfull with miracles may be sin.
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« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2011, 09:14:00 PM »

St Spyridon:

St. Spyridon reposed in, more or less, the year 348. His relics, completely incorrupt, are kept in the cathedral on the island of Corfu. He has a reputation as being an unusually active saint — he is seen here, there and pretty much everywhere, interceding for the faithful. Oh pshaw, you say. How do you know that?

There is some unusual proof to the statement. Every year they take his relics and process through the streets of the town. The relics are so incorrupt, so soft and flexible, that they bounce slightly as he is carried, as you or I might bounce when being carried in a chair. After the procession, they do one other thing. Every year. For the who knows how many centuries. What do they do?

Every year, they change St. Spyridon’s shoes. The reason is that the old ones — which were just put on him the year before — are worn out, with holes in the soles. Just like they would be if worn by a man who had just spent the last year covering a lot of ground.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Spyridon

"When Spyridon, paused in his journey to rest for the night at an inn, the Arians came under cover of darkness and decapitated both of the horses who were to pull his carriage. When dawn came and Spyridon's companions saw what the heretics had done, a servant ran to tell the bishop. Saint Spyridon put his hope in the Lord and told the servant to go back and put the horses' heads back on their bodies. The servant went quickly and did what he had been told, but in his haste, he placed the head of the white horse on the body of the black horse, and the head of the black horse on the body of the white horse. At once, the horses came to life and rose to their feet. The saint gave thanks to God, got into his carriage and continued on his way to the council. All the people who saw this were amazed, for the black horse had a white head, and the white horse had a black head! Best of all, the wicked scheme of the heretics failed and the saint arrived at the Council where he proved to be a great defender and teacher of the faith.

"

When St spiridon arrived at Council people were scared. Arians saw a black horse with white head since the helper did not see color putting the heads when dark.

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« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2011, 09:17:20 PM »

Is that a subtle crack about my weight?   Grin   Grin   Grin   Wink

Oh no ma'am, I hope you don't think I meant it that way.  Undecided

I just thought the picture fit what you said with humor.  Cool
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« Reply #83 on: July 29, 2011, 09:25:25 PM »

The life of St Spiridon http://www.saint-spyridon.com/archive_spyridon.htm
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« Reply #84 on: July 29, 2011, 09:40:29 PM »


I just thought the picture fit what you said with humor.  Cool

No worries, my friend, I was just joshin'. Smiley
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« Reply #85 on: July 29, 2011, 10:09:02 PM »

So, what does the Church say?
What a silly question. The Church says that Her sacraments are valid, of course. Tongue
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« Reply #86 on: July 29, 2011, 10:13:35 PM »

So, what does the Church say?
What a silly question. The Church says that Her sacraments are valid, of course. Tongue

Careful.  Remember where we are on the Forum.  I forgot for a moment but PtA has reminded us.  There's a serious question on the table by the OP who is entering Orthodoxy.

M.
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« Reply #87 on: July 29, 2011, 11:07:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Then how do you explain this:

1. On Mount Athos The Emperor comes with Romano Catholic priests and orders Eastern orthodox monks to celebrate Holy Liturgy. Some monks accept and God destroys the Church, Emperor escaping.
The Emperor is not convinced. He gathers Eastern orthodox monks and forces them to celebrate again with Romano Catholics and God again destroys ANOTHER Church.

How do you explain this?

The bodies of monks celebrating with Romano Catholics stinck and until now the nails and hair grow.I heard that European Union puts some money and bodies are put in a cave and entrance is closed. However the story is there.

So you say, same Churcvh however God destroys Church when Eastern orthodox and Romano Catholics celebrate Holy Liturgy.

Today you discuss with me. After 100 years you'll discuss with God.

No disrespect but that is superstitiously simplistic.  By your own logic the RC is valid because it still exists after nearly two-thousand years, the same with each other other jurisdictions.  If Divine Justice is the end all of supposedly heretical jurisdictions, how come God hasn't destroyed the Roman Catholic Church or the Coptic Church outright?


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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The Coptic Church is Orthodox.

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« Reply #88 on: July 29, 2011, 11:10:14 PM »

Nope . Is God.

There is no reason for God doing miracles when God and man were far away and now when men can become children of God, God to stop doing miracles. This is Protestant baggage.
"Only an evil and perverse generation seeks a sign."

The Protestants didn't make that up.

I find no evidence that the Lord has changed His mind on that matter.
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« Reply #89 on: July 29, 2011, 11:23:17 PM »

Nope . Is God.

There is no reason for God doing miracles when God and man were far away and now when men can become children of God, God to stop doing miracles. This is Protestant baggage.
"Only an evil and perverse generation seeks a sign."

The Protestants didn't make that up.

I find no evidence that the Lord has changed His mind on that matter.

He has a point about some of the whacky miracle-denial that goes on in protestant circles though: everything miraculous that happened between Genesis and Acts is true but anything that happened after Acts is Scripture-denying Popery and hocus pocus.
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« Reply #90 on: July 29, 2011, 11:25:29 PM »

Psychic I believe is from bad side.

Gifted people from God obtain this through prayer.

Your confirming what I said. would you met somebody like Arsenie Boca that did miracles like in the Bible in face of Romanians, you would change your world view. I believe Greec had eleder Paisios.

Ok. There is one thing you can do and see for yourself.

Saint Spyridon, dead in 300's. even now his body is in good state like a living person that is asleep. Anyhow his body is missing from Church days at the time and when he returns his shoes are muddy and every year his shoes are changed.

I am not speaking aboout people moving mountains through prayer that had faith like a mustard seed since this can be too much for people with Protestant Baggage.


I was not planning on posting on this thread, but your statement regarding St. Spyridon motivated me to do so. Do those in charge of his shrine photographically record when his body is missing and when it returns?

My parish priest, whom I love dearly, recently mentioned a similar story about St. Basil of Ostrog, stating that when his clothes are changed periodically, the soles of the shoes are worn out, even though they always put new shoes on the corpse when they change his garments.

I have a very difficult time accepting such claims; they remind me of zombie stories.  Despite the fact that the resurrection has not yet occurred, we are expected to believe that some dead saints literally get up and walk around the country at times, to the extent that they wear out their shoes?

I don't claim it is impossible, and I have less problems believing that a saint may appear in a vision to someone, but physically leaving their tomb and walking?
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« Reply #91 on: July 30, 2011, 03:31:21 AM »

1. Miracles happen even today. If you don't believe them is you option however don't speak disrespectful for them

Religion is not University so it has to has miracles. There is no point for miracles to end, now when people and God are closer. Now the miracles are even more powerfull. One needs to think at Holy Communion.

At one of Ecumenical Councils there were 2 factions. THey needed a sign from God. So the people had decided, lets ask God. They put in writting the 2 points of view and put the 2 books on a body of a dePARTED Saint. They closed the Church and went to prayer. Next day when they open the church one set of papers were in the hands of Saint and one set of papers was at her feet thus rejected.

Therev are countless miracles.

Holy water is miracle:http://stmaryofstamford.org/holywater.html Because of these miracles and because people see these miracles, in Eastern orthodoxy the question is not if God exists, the question is how people can communicate with God. For thousand tyears Eastern orthodoxy does communicate with God.

Sola Scriptura is the Wall that separates Protestants from historical documents of the Church. Denying miracles without basis is the wall that separates Protestantism from God. since God speaks through miracles. Protestants are not allowed to speak with God since God will tell them about errors of their beliefs. In Eastern orthodox faith , being the TRUE CHURCH and TRUE FAITH, there is no such concern.

Saint bodies being incorrupted is another miracle even if departure from World happen in year 300.

http://www.saint-spyridon.com/archive_spyridon.htm
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« Reply #92 on: July 30, 2011, 09:29:29 AM »

If you believe that Moses and Elijah appeared on Transfiguration day on Earth then you should have no Problem with saint Mary and Saints Appearing today and walking on Earth.
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« Reply #93 on: July 30, 2011, 09:44:37 AM »

If you believe that Moses and Elijah appeared on Transfiguration day on Earth then you should have no Problem with saint Mary and Saints Appearing today and walking on Earth.
Oral Roberts could make the same argument when he was told to go up in the tower and not come down until someone donated, what was it, 2 million dollars?
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« Reply #94 on: July 30, 2011, 01:36:55 PM »

One take on it is that Jesus came to Apostles and taught them and the Church about the way they should take it. On this way there is baptism for entereing Heaven, There is Holy Communion for eternal life, confession for sin forgiveness, there are miracles, Jesus and St Mary will come and speak with people and people can become Saints gettinmg to Heaven from this life and many miracles can happen.

After 1500, people did protest and went to another way named Protestantism. They renounced Holy Communion for eternal life, confession for sin forgiveness, miracles, prayers for departed and many more. This new way is a punishment being much worse that Christians had before . People going from this path to Eastern orthodoxy did that because God allowed them to do so as a result of good deeds in family and I believe that something very good did happen in their family and life and this is a gift to come to the right path. Comming to the right way means comming closer to God.

Anyhow is good for people comming to Eastern Orthodoxy to pray for people remining on the wrong path so that they will know the truth too.

WHAT I AM SAYING HERE WOULD BE FAMILIAR WITH WESTERN CHRISTIANS IN FIRST 1500 YEARS BEFORE Protestant invention. They would be scared by protestantism, I mean you ancestors that were orthodox for 1000+ years. If I would told them about saints comming from death they would say sure or abour praying to saints for intercession.
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« Reply #95 on: July 30, 2011, 04:14:46 PM »

So...wait...somewhere above someone mentioned that the monks talk to St. Mary face to face.....or did I totally misread that?
PP

A good book about miracles that I recommend to you is this: http://www.amazon.com/Gurus-Young-Man-Elder-Paisios/dp/1887904166/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312056700&sr=1-1

Now bear in mind that to some denominations confusion comes because they do not differentiate right between Old Law and New Law and for some of them there is One Law.

In Old Law people and God were departed and Moses could not see the face of God. In new Law when Jesus or God came many people could see not only the face of God.
In Old Law people could not communicate with departed. In New Law God asked Lazarus to return form dead and Moses that died before appeared at Transfiguration day.

So once you sort this out and know that New Law is different and that Old Law does not apply then you start going in the right direction escaping coonfusion.
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« Reply #96 on: July 30, 2011, 04:18:53 PM »

So...wait...somewhere above someone mentioned that the monks talk to St. Mary face to face.....or did I totally misread that?
PP

A good book about miracles that I recommend to you is this: http://www.amazon.com/Gurus-Young-Man-Elder-Paisios/dp/1887904166/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312056700&sr=1-1

Now bear in mind that to some denominations confusion comes because they do not differentiate right between Old Law and New Law and for some of them there is One Law.

In Old Law people and God were departed and Moses could not see the face of God. In new Law when Jesus or God came many people could see not only the face of God.
In Old Law people could not communicate with departed. In New Law God asked Lazarus to return form dead and Moses that died before appeared at Transfiguration day.

So once you sort this out and know that New Law is different and that Old Law does not apply then you start going in the right direction escaping coonfusion.


The Old Law does not apply?  Are you saying Jesus lied to us?
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« Reply #97 on: July 30, 2011, 04:22:29 PM »

Psychic I believe is from bad side.

Gifted people from God obtain this through prayer.

Your confirming what I said. would you met somebody like Arsenie Boca that did miracles like in the Bible in face of Romanians, you would change your world view. I believe Greec had eleder Paisios.

Ok. There is one thing you can do and see for yourself.

Saint Spyridon, dead in 300's. even now his body is in good state like a living person that is asleep. Anyhow his body is missing from Church days at the time and when he returns his shoes are muddy and every year his shoes are changed.

I am not speaking aboout people moving mountains through prayer that had faith like a mustard seed since this can be too much for people with Protestant Baggage.


I was not planning on posting on this thread, but your statement regarding St. Spyridon motivated me to do so. Do those in charge of his shrine photographically record when his body is missing and when it returns?

My parish priest, whom I love dearly, recently mentioned a similar story about St. Basil of Ostrog, stating that when his clothes are changed periodically, the soles of the shoes are worn out, even though they always put new shoes on the corpse when they change his garments.

I have a very difficult time accepting such claims; they remind me of zombie stories.  Despite the fact that the resurrection has not yet occurred, we are expected to believe that some dead saints literally get up and walk around the country at times, to the extent that they wear out their shoes?

I don't claim it is impossible, and I have less problems believing that a saint may appear in a vision to someone, but physically leaving their tomb and walking?

saints are not bound by the physical laws... they are gods... 'as many gods are' ... and 'God sits in the assembly of the gods'... the saints follow Christ in anything(Rev 14:4)...
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« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2011, 04:26:04 PM »

can apostolic succesion(power) be undone?
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« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2011, 04:28:42 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday? Do you eat certain foods?

Are christians circumcised?

Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 04:30:53 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2011, 04:34:24 PM »

can apostolic succesion(power) be undone?
Is there some kind of power intrinsic to apostolic succession?

Apostolic succession is known only within the Church. It is not a property possessed by the person of the bishop. If the bishop leaves the Church due to heresy, schism, or apostasy, the apostolic succession remains within the Church and does not go with the bishop. The bishop has thus departed from the apostolic succession in which he was once a partaker, and he ceases to be a bishop until such time that he is reconciled to the Church.
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« Reply #101 on: July 30, 2011, 04:35:52 PM »

Hebrew 7

HEB 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
HEB 7:2 to whom also Abraham divided a tenth part of all (being first, by interpretation, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace;
HEB 7:3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God), remains a priest continually.
HEB 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth out of the best spoils.
HEB 7:5 They indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest's office have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brothers, though these have come out of the body of Abraham,
HEB 7:6 but he whose genealogy is not counted from them has accepted tithes from Abraham, and has blessed him who has the promises.
HEB 7:7 But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater.
HEB 7:8 Here people who die receive tithes, but there one receives tithes of whom it is testified that he lives.
HEB 7:9 We can say that through Abraham even Levi, who receives tithes, has paid tithes,
HEB 7:10 for he was yet in the body of his father when Melchizedek met him.
HEB 7:11 Now if there was perfection through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people have received the law), what further need was there for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
HEB 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made also in the law.
HEB 7:13 For he of whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.
HEB 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord has sprung out of Judah, about which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
HEB 7:15 This is yet more abundantly evident, if after the likeness of Melchizedek there arises another priest,
HEB 7:16 who has been made, not after the law of a fleshly commandment, but after the power of an endless life:
HEB 7:17 for it is testified, "You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek."{Psalm 110:4}
HEB 7:18 For there is an annulling of a foregoing commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
HEB 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
HEB 7:20 Inasmuch as he was not made priest without the taking of an oath
HEB 7:21 (for they indeed have been made priests without an oath), but he with an oath by him that says of him, "The Lord swore and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek.'"{Psalm 110:4}
HEB 7:22 By so much, Jesus has become the collateral of a better covenant.
HEB 7:23 Many, indeed, have been made priests, because they are hindered from continuing by death.
HEB 7:24 But he, because he lives forever, has his priesthood unchangeable.
HEB 7:25 Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them.
HEB 7:26 For such a high priest was fitting for us: holy, guiltless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
HEB 7:27 who doesn't need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For he did this once for all, when he offered up himself.
HEB 7:28 For the law appoints men as high priests who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the law appoints a Son forever who has been perfected.


 

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« Reply #102 on: July 30, 2011, 04:38:18 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday? Do you eat certain foods?

Are christians circumcised?

Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?

When He said that he came not to destroy the [old] Law but to fulfill it.  He made that pretty clear. 
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« Reply #103 on: July 30, 2011, 04:49:44 PM »

The Old Law does not apply? 

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« Reply #104 on: July 30, 2011, 05:05:38 PM »

can apostolic succesion(power) be undone?
Is there some kind of power intrinsic to apostolic succession?

Apostolic succession is known only within the Church. It is not a property possessed by the person of the bishop. If the bishop leaves the Church due to heresy, schism, or apostasy, the apostolic succession remains within the Church and does not go with the bishop. The bishop has thus departed from the apostolic succession in which he was once a partaker, and he ceases to be a bishop until such time that he is reconciled to the Church.

Isn`t that Donatism?
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« Reply #105 on: July 30, 2011, 05:08:42 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday? Do you eat certain foods?

Are christians circumcised?

Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?

When He said that he came not to destroy the [old] Law but to fulfill it.  He made that pretty clear. 

Exactly. The goal of Old Law was to allow for God to incarnate and come to Earth to bring the New Law. Once God has come, the Law has been fulfilled.


JER 31:31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

New Covenant.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 05:15:10 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #106 on: July 30, 2011, 05:21:39 PM »

can apostolic succesion(power) be undone?
Is there some kind of power intrinsic to apostolic succession?

Apostolic succession is known only within the Church. It is not a property possessed by the person of the bishop. If the bishop leaves the Church due to heresy, schism, or apostasy, the apostolic succession remains within the Church and does not go with the bishop. The bishop has thus departed from the apostolic succession in which he was once a partaker, and he ceases to be a bishop until such time that he is reconciled to the Church.

Isn`t that Donatism?
No. Donatism teaches that the validity of a sacrament is dependent on the personal holiness of the celebrant. If anything, I have implied the exact opposite, that the sacraments are the work of the Church, NOT the work of the individual celebrant. The Church works through the person of the celebrant to give Life to the sacraments, but the work is still that of the Church. Outside of the Church, those sacramental rites performed by the minister are devoid of the Life of the Holy Spirit and are merely empty rites. You'll actually find this teaching in the writings of St. Cyprian of Carthage.
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« Reply #107 on: July 30, 2011, 05:50:54 PM »

Do you celebrate the Saturday?

Yes.  No fasting on Saturday, like Sunday.

Do you eat certain foods?
I won't eat blood.

Are christians circumcised?
This one and his sons are.
Where did Jesus told about Old Law being into effect?
Matthew 5:17-20
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #108 on: August 01, 2011, 12:50:48 PM »

The tangent on circumcision has been moved to Religious Topics.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=38440.0
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