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Author Topic: An open discussion regarding inquirers/catechumens engaging in...  (Read 1130 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 24, 2011, 04:48:23 PM »

...Orthodox theology and polemics.

I have seen quite a number of inquirers and catechumens engaging in Orthodox discussions which revolve either around theology, polemics, or theologumen make dogmatic assertions about what the Orthodox believe but they themselves are not in the Church to make such statements. This includes me as well obviously.

I feel that this may deceive those that are genuinely interested in becoming Orthodox and coming across these posts from people who don't have either the knowledge or experience to say so. I see a tendency for people to proclaim know it all attitudes on matters that they themselves shouldn't be engaging in. I won't name names, but there is a member on this forum who engages in polemics who gives a misrepresentation of a certain faith and sincerely should be taken with a grain of salt.

What would be the best way to rectify this problem, or because this forum isn't as academically erudite like Monachos that pop Orthodoxy from non-Orthodox should still be permitted?
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 09:56:34 PM »

I think it depends.  If the person is saying something that can be disproven, disprove it.  If the person is passing off their opinion or belief as the standard Orthodox opinion (or the only acceptable one), then show how that's not the case.  The fact that a person is not yet a member of the Church has little impact on whether or not they are knowledgeable.  There are many baptized Orthodox, even those raised from birth as Orthodox Christians, who have a serious lack of understanding about the faith (which is why Metropolitan Isaiah of Denver recently had to send out a letter about how homosexuality is not ok, but we should love homosexuals nonetheless). 
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 10:02:48 PM »

Those are good points James.

BTW You live in Denver and attend a GOA parish?
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2011, 10:21:09 PM »

...Orthodox theology and polemics.

I have seen quite a number of inquirers and catechumens engaging in Orthodox discussions which revolve either around theology, polemics, or theologumen make dogmatic assertions about what the Orthodox believe but they themselves are not in the Church to make such statements. This includes me as well obviously.

I feel that this may deceive those that are genuinely interested in becoming Orthodox and coming across these posts from people who don't have either the knowledge or experience to say so. I see a tendency for people to proclaim know it all attitudes on matters that they themselves shouldn't be engaging in. I won't name names, but there is a member on this forum who engages in polemics who gives a misrepresentation of a certain faith and sincerely should be taken with a grain of salt.

What would be the best way to rectify this problem, or because this forum isn't as academically erudite like Monachos that pop Orthodoxy from non-Orthodox should still be permitted?

It is the internet--a "user beware" warning should be implied. The vast majority of people on here have no way of proving they are who they say they are, their expertise or experience. For that matter, there are many groups in real life/meatspace that appear for all intents and purposes to be Orthodox, but they aren't.

There really is nothing to stop any of this, because of the inherent anonymity of the medium.
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 10:36:51 PM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20605.msg308169.html#msg308169

Quote
Alveus Lacuna on April 07, 2009, 01:54:30 PM
I don't care how we are unified, as long as we gave our own American Church that is self-governing.  I don't care about the arguments about who "got here first", who's authority is the "mostest canonical", and whatever else.  Everybody needs to grow up and work out something that will bring us all together in a way that will give us a unified voice in America.  Nobody in this country is going to take us seriously until we are visibly and governmentally unified, not only "mystically" unified.  Americans will actually take note of us if we have an American Orthodox Church.

Actually, I'm not even a part of the church yet, so my opinions do not count!  Give me six more months and then I'll start contributing opinions!


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from: ialmisry on April 07, 2009, 02:29:02 PM
Christ appears to St. Martin.
ACCORDINGLY, at a certain period, when he had nothing except his arms and his simple military dress, in the middle of winter, a winter which had shown itself more severe than ordinary, so that the extreme cold was proving fatal to many, he happened to meet at the gate of the city of Amiens a poor man destitute of clothing. He was entreating those that passed by to have compassion upon him, but all passed the wretched man without notice, when Martin, that man full of God, recognized that a being to whom others showed no pity, was, in that respect, left to him. Yet, what should he do? He had nothing except the cloak in which he was clad, for he had already parted with the rest of his garments for similar purposes. Taking, therefore, his sword with which he was girt, he divided his cloak into two equal parts, and gave one part to the poor man, while he again clothed himself with the remainder. Upon this, some of the by-standers laughed, because he was now an unsightly object, and stood out as but partly dressed. Many, however, who were of sounder understanding, groaned deeply because they themselves had done nothing similar. They especially felt this, because, being possessed of more than Martin, they could have clothed the poor man without reducing themselves to nakedness. In the following night, when Martin had resigned himself to sleep, he had a vision of Christ arrayed in that part of his cloak with which he had clothed the poor man. He contemplated the Lord with the greatest attention, and was told to own as his the robe which he had given. Ere long, he heard Jesus saying with a clear voice to the multitude of angels standing round -- "Martin, who is still but a catechumen, clothed me with this robe."
http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~eknuth/npnf2-11/sulpitiu/lifeofst.html#tp
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 10:39:37 PM »

They can contribute, as long as they recognize that the old timers here are always right Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2011, 10:43:06 PM »

They can contribute, as long as they recognize that the old timers here are always right Smiley

How can you always be right when your signature line says what it says?? Tongue
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2011, 10:46:55 PM »

They can contribute, as long as they recognize that the old timers here are always right Smiley

How can you always be right when your signature line says what it says?? Tongue

I don't know... and that's how I know I'm right!  Wait...  Huh Maybe?
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2011, 10:55:12 PM »

Just call them out. That's the beauty of this forum. Considering the back and forth bickering that each thread, I don't think that we're having any problems with calling out people here.  police

Don't see anything else we can do, except make the catechumens provide a baptismal certificate before posting. :-P And cradles can also misrepresent the faith, so what could we do in that instance? Nada.
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2011, 10:57:08 PM »

This is why I usually avoid anything like that, and if I do start to write about something dogmatic or normative, I mention I could be wrong and that I am a catechumen. Its also part of the reason I use my real name so that my priest can correct me if I need to be.
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2011, 11:18:16 PM »

I was wrong in this thread and have been corrected by those above. Thank you for your responses.
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2011, 02:00:00 AM »

Those are good points James.

BTW You live in Denver and attend a GOA parish?

Umm, I live in Bagdad, AZ (a terrible copper mining town).  Before that, I was in Chandler, AZ.
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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2011, 02:14:29 AM »

I came across an EO board that didn't allow catechumen to engage in discussion. I don't remember the board, though I'm sure some people here do. Either way there was not much activity on it, and my bet is it is largely because of that rule.
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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2011, 03:23:14 AM »

I came across an EO board that didn't allow catechumen to engage in discussion. I don't remember the board, though I'm sure some people here do. Either way there was not much activity on it, and my bet is it is largely because of that rule.
Does that forum also allow every poster to submit no more than one post per day? I've visited such an Orthodox forum as that.
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2011, 03:57:28 AM »

I came across an EO board that didn't allow catechumen to engage in discussion. I don't remember the board, though I'm sure some people here do. Either way there was not much activity on it, and my bet is it is largely because of that rule.
Does that forum also allow every poster to submit no more than one post per day? I've visited such an Orthodox forum as that.
That would drive ialmisry, Wyatt, Irish Hermit, and elijahmary crazy.
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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2011, 05:27:50 AM »

I came across an EO board that didn't allow catechumen to engage in discussion. I don't remember the board, though I'm sure some people here do. Either way there was not much activity on it, and my bet is it is largely because of that rule.
Does that forum also allow every poster to submit no more than one post per day? I've visited such an Orthodox forum as that.
That would drive ialmisry, Wyatt, Irish Hermit, and elijahmary crazy.

Irish Hermit
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« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2011, 10:20:25 AM »

I came across an EO board that didn't allow catechumen to engage in discussion. I don't remember the board, though I'm sure some people here do. Either way there was not much activity on it, and my bet is it is largely because of that rule.
Does that forum also allow every poster to submit no more than one post per day? I've visited such an Orthodox forum as that.
That would drive ialmisry, Wyatt, Irish Hermit, and elijahmary crazy.

Irish Hermit
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5.869 per day    laugh

LOL. I'm more relating how a RC would respond but you wouldn't have a day until you could reply. That would drive me nuts.
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« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2011, 10:23:35 AM »


Irish Hermit is not RC...

....in fact, he is an Orthodox priest.

Smiley
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 10:25:39 AM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2011, 10:26:39 AM »

I came across an EO board that didn't allow catechumen to engage in discussion. I don't remember the board, though I'm sure some people here do. Either way there was not much activity on it, and my bet is it is largely because of that rule.
Does that forum also allow every poster to submit no more than one post per day? I've visited such an Orthodox forum as that.
That would drive ialmisry, Wyatt, Irish Hermit, and elijahmary crazy.

Irish Hermit
3.265 per day

Aposphet
5.869 per day    laugh

LOL. I'm more relating how a RC would respond but you wouldn't have a day until you could reply. That would drive me nuts.

One thing I do is break up the response to a long message into several answering posts, two or three or four.  So that multiplies the number of my posts.

Some people place their responses all into one lengthy message.

Me, I have a Readers Digest brain and like short responses. laugh
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« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2011, 10:32:18 AM »


Irish Hermit is not RC...

....in fact, he is an Orthodox priest.

Smiley

Ha Liza sorry for the poorly structured sentence, I know Irish Hermit is an Orthodox priest, WR too! I was just saying when a RC responds to Fr. Ambrose's post, he'd have to wait a day.

I came across an EO board that didn't allow catechumen to engage in discussion. I don't remember the board, though I'm sure some people here do. Either way there was not much activity on it, and my bet is it is largely because of that rule.
Does that forum also allow every poster to submit no more than one post per day? I've visited such an Orthodox forum as that.
That would drive ialmisry, Wyatt, Irish Hermit, and elijahmary crazy.

Irish Hermit
3.265 per day

Aposphet
5.869 per day    laugh

LOL. I'm more relating how a RC would respond but you wouldn't have a day until you could reply. That would drive me nuts.

One thing I do is break up the response to a long message into several answering posts, two or three or four.  So that multiplies the number of my posts.

Some people place their responses all into one lengthy message.

Me, I have a Readers Digest brain and like short responses. laugh
And I have a New York Times brain and like one headline responses lol Wink
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« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2011, 10:38:29 AM »


Irish Hermit is not RC...

....in fact, he is an Orthodox priest.

Smiley


Father Irish Hermit was a priest-monk of the Serbian Orthodox Church for 25 years and then the bishops transferred him to the Russian Church Abroad in 1996.

Family is 100% Irish -somehow nobody intermarried with the English!-  and we have been in Australia and New Zealand since the mid 19th century - victims of the Great Hunger in Ireland.  Ancestral family territory is County Offaly.  We are a mixed religion family - the majority are Roman Catholic, and some are Orthodox.   
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« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2011, 10:52:17 AM »


Irish Hermit is not RC...

....in fact, he is an Orthodox priest.

Smiley
Ha Liza sorry for the poorly structured sentence, I know Irish Hermit is an Orthodox priest, WR too!


Father Irish Hermit could still say a pre-1965 Mass in Latin if he were asked but he has been solidly Serbo- and Russo-Byzantine for around  45 years!  So it is realy Slavic music and melodies which ring the bells for me.  Although I admit crying a little at the funeral of a long-time friend when they sang "Soul of My Saviour" as the final hymn.   I think I'll ask the Catholic section of the family to sing it for me at the graveside.  

My bishop who is Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad, has given limited permission for the celebration of the Lorrha Missal.  But nobody has the interest, it seems, to give it a trial. Pity! I would like to see it in real life.
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« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2011, 11:35:38 AM »

...Orthodox theology and polemics.

I have seen quite a number of inquirers and catechumens engaging in Orthodox discussions which revolve either around theology, polemics, or theologumen make dogmatic assertions about what the Orthodox believe but they themselves are not in the Church to make such statements. This includes me as well obviously.

I feel that this may deceive those that are genuinely interested in becoming Orthodox and coming across these posts from people who don't have either the knowledge or experience to say so. I see a tendency for people to proclaim know it all attitudes on matters that they themselves shouldn't be engaging in. I won't name names, but there is a member on this forum who engages in polemics who gives a misrepresentation of a certain faith and sincerely should be taken with a grain of salt.

What would be the best way to rectify this problem, or because this forum isn't as academically erudite like Monachos that pop Orthodoxy from non-Orthodox should still be permitted?
If someone is right then they're right, it don't matter what stage of w/evas they are at. That's why IsmiLiora was suprised at my answer one time but it was only good because i just read it off a Orthodox blog. I never quoted it because i couldn't remember the blog but i explained it in my own words and im just a jo blo. Its up to other people here who are more knowledgable to say if someone has got something wrong or not. Thas how people learn. Easy uh??
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« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2011, 12:55:45 PM »

...Orthodox theology and polemics.

I have seen quite a number of inquirers and catechumens engaging in Orthodox discussions which revolve either around theology, polemics, or theologumen make dogmatic assertions about what the Orthodox believe but they themselves are not in the Church to make such statements. This includes me as well obviously.

I feel that this may deceive those that are genuinely interested in becoming Orthodox and coming across these posts from people who don't have either the knowledge or experience to say so. I see a tendency for people to proclaim know it all attitudes on matters that they themselves shouldn't be engaging in. I won't name names, but there is a member on this forum who engages in polemics who gives a misrepresentation of a certain faith and sincerely should be taken with a grain of salt.

What would be the best way to rectify this problem, or because this forum isn't as academically erudite like Monachos that pop Orthodoxy from non-Orthodox should still be permitted?
If someone is right then they're right, it don't matter what stage of w/evas they are at. That's why IsmiLiora was suprised at my answer one time but it was only good because i just read it off a Orthodox blog. I never quoted it because i couldn't remember the blog but i explained it in my own words and im just a jo blo. Its up to other people here who are more knowledgable to say if someone has got something wrong or not. Thas how people learn. Easy uh??
Poppy's right. If something is true, then it's true regardless of who presents it, and if something is false, it's false regardless of who presents it. Catechumens are often very well educated and very capable of speaking true doctrine, and many of our heresies were preached by priests and bishops. The truth of a statement is intrinsic to the statement and not dependent on the supposed authority of the person presenting it. To argue otherwise is to make an ad hominem argument.
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« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2011, 02:02:20 PM »

I came across an EO board that didn't allow catechumen to engage in discussion. I don't remember the board, though I'm sure some people here do. Either way there was not much activity on it, and my bet is it is largely because of that rule.
Does that forum also allow every poster to submit no more than one post per day? I've visited such an Orthodox forum as that.
That would drive ialmisry, Wyatt, Irish Hermit, and elijahmary crazy.
blimey and me!! I already cant even stand moderation that slows down peoples posts. One a day would send me packing
you should include that in the list of corrections for this place
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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2011, 10:35:15 AM »

This is the exact reason I usually start my comments concerning this as "in my opinion" because I can barely amble my way through liturgy, let alone comment on the intracacies (sp?) of theology.

PP
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