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Author Topic: New York Town Clerk Quits Over Opposition to Gay Marriage  (Read 4454 times) Average Rating: 0
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celticfan1888
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« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2011, 12:21:35 AM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Here you going dissing the Royal Family again. I am going to ask nicely, stop doing that.
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« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2011, 12:21:36 AM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.
jealous that you lost out?
Not in the least. We won.

I'm going to chuckle to myself.  Cheesy
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« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2011, 05:57:07 AM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
Actually this is the second case someone has resigned over this issue.
In that case good and good.
“I believe that there is a higher law than the law of the land. It is the law of God in the Bible.  In Acts 5:29, it states, ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’”

“The Bible clearly teaches that God created marriage between male and female as a divine gift that preserves families and cultures. Since I love and follow Him, I cannot put my signature on something that is against God.  Deuteronomy 10:12 says, ‘…What does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good.’”

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/ny-broome-county-clerk-resigns-over-same-sex-marriage-cites-biblical-law.html

Good and Good indeed.
If that is the case, why didn't they resign the first time they were required to sign a certificate for a divorced person?
What's it to you?  You have the get.
When in doubt always reach for ad hom'
What ad hom'? You apostacized from the Church that has a prohibition against the divorce, for the Law of the Pharisees that doesn't. All facts, no?

So what position are you in to worry about a clerk's beliefs about the remarriage of the divorced, when you don't recognize such a prohibition yourself?
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« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2011, 06:19:26 AM »

What prohibition against divorce? The Eastern Orthodox Church permits remarriage after divorce, as does the Episcopal Church.
 

Huh


Or is Isa arguing from the image of perfection that seems to exist only in his mind?   Tongue


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« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2011, 10:00:03 AM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
Actually this is the second case someone has resigned over this issue.
In that case good and good.
“I believe that there is a higher law than the law of the land. It is the law of God in the Bible.  In Acts 5:29, it states, ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’”

“The Bible clearly teaches that God created marriage between male and female as a divine gift that preserves families and cultures. Since I love and follow Him, I cannot put my signature on something that is against God.  Deuteronomy 10:12 says, ‘…What does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good.’”

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/ny-broome-county-clerk-resigns-over-same-sex-marriage-cites-biblical-law.html

Good and Good indeed.
If that is the case, why didn't they resign the first time they were required to sign a certificate for a divorced person?
What's it to you?  You have the get.
When in doubt always reach for ad hom'
What ad hom'? You apostacized from the Church that has a prohibition against the divorce, for the Law of the Pharisees that doesn't. All facts, no?

So what position are you in to worry about a clerk's beliefs about the remarriage of the divorced, when you don't recognize such a prohibition yourself?
i was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of refusaing to sign liceses for same sex couples, while not refusing to do the same for a divorced person.
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« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2011, 10:01:47 AM »

What prohibition against divorce? The Eastern Orthodox Church permits remarriage after divorce, as does the Episcopal Church.
 

Huh


Or is Isa arguing from the image of perfection that seems to exist only in his mind?   Tongue
No, but Talliot seems to be.
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« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2011, 10:03:34 AM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
Actually this is the second case someone has resigned over this issue.
In that case good and good.
“I believe that there is a higher law than the law of the land. It is the law of God in the Bible.  In Acts 5:29, it states, ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’”

“The Bible clearly teaches that God created marriage between male and female as a divine gift that preserves families and cultures. Since I love and follow Him, I cannot put my signature on something that is against God.  Deuteronomy 10:12 says, ‘…What does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good.’”

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/ny-broome-county-clerk-resigns-over-same-sex-marriage-cites-biblical-law.html

Good and Good indeed.
If that is the case, why didn't they resign the first time they were required to sign a certificate for a divorced person?
What's it to you?  You have the get.
When in doubt always reach for ad hom'
What ad hom'? You apostacized from the Church that has a prohibition against the divorce, for the Law of the Pharisees that doesn't. All facts, no?

So what position are you in to worry about a clerk's beliefs about the remarriage of the divorced, when you don't recognize such a prohibition yourself?
i was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of refusaing to sign liceses for same sex couples, while not refusing to do the same for a divorced person.
That presumes that they have a problem with remarrying a divorced person. Many (most?) Protestants do not.   Now, that a deficiency in their sectarian theology, but that's also a different question than they one you are taking them to task for.
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« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2011, 10:13:06 AM »

Bottom line: same sex marriage is legal in New York. If this person couldn't or wouldn't carry out the duties of the position it's a good thing that she resigned. Now someone who can do the job can step in.
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« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2011, 10:16:11 AM »

Bottom line: same sex marriage is legal in New York. If this person couldn't or wouldn't carry out the duties of the position it's a good thing that she resigned. Now someone who can do the job can step in.

Bottom(er) line: Legality doesn't equal morality. If she truly believes it to be immoral to be required to perform certain job functions, she should quit. She did.
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« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2011, 10:27:56 AM »

i was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of refusaing to sign liceses for same sex couples, while not refusing to do the same for a divorced person.

Does it actually state on a marriage certificate that one of the parties is a divorcee?
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« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2011, 10:37:40 AM »

Bottom line: same sex marriage is legal in New York. If this person couldn't or wouldn't carry out the duties of the position it's a good thing that she resigned. Now someone who can do the job can step in.

Bottom(er) line: Legality doesn't equal morality. If she truly believes it to be immoral to be required to perform certain job functions, she should quit. She did.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Was not slavery legal only 150 years ago in this country? How would folks like Tallitot justify that?

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« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2011, 10:45:30 AM »

This is a little bit different than signing divorce papers.

Look at it this way... The Orthodox Church allows up to 3 divorces, and even 1 divorce should be avoided at all costs. But it is not the job of the Town Clerk to investigate and judge the state of the divorce.

However, the Orthodox Church does not allow homosexual marriage (or homosexual relationships) under any circumstances, at anytime, or anywhere.

Now, I know this woman isn't Orthodox. But I'm just trying to illustrate a point. There is a big difference between divorces and homosexual marriage. Traditionally, Christianity has permitted divorces as a last resort. But it has never, ever allowed homosexual relationships.
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« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2011, 11:06:19 AM »

Bottom line: same sex marriage is legal in New York. If this person couldn't or wouldn't carry out the duties of the position it's a good thing that she resigned. Now someone who can do the job can step in.

Bottom(er) line: Legality doesn't equal morality. If she truly believes it to be immoral to be required to perform certain job functions, she should quit. She did.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Was not slavery legal only 150 years ago in this country? How would folks like Tallitot justify that?
Like Thomas Jefferson, no doubt: blame the British Monarchy.
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« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2011, 11:09:24 AM »

i was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of refusaing to sign liceses for same sex couples, while not refusing to do the same for a divorced person.

Does it actually state on a marriage certificate that one of the parties is a divorcee?

In IL IIRC you have to swear you have never been married, or are divorced and have to produce the divorce decree.  Basically Talliot either wants the clerk to not recognize any divorce (which would be applicable only if she were in submission to the Vatican, and even then to get an annullment you first have to get a divorce), or empower herself to second guess the judge who entered the divorce decree.
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« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2011, 11:18:17 AM »

Bottom line: same sex marriage is legal in New York. If this person couldn't or wouldn't carry out the duties of the position it's a good thing that she resigned.

So much for the ban on ex post facto.  It wasn't in her job description when she was hired.  It's been changed midterm.
Now someone who can do the job can step in.
Yes.  Many regimes depend on such people.

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« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2011, 11:54:57 AM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Given your dislike of genetic lotteries, one has to wonder why you converted to a religion where one's status as a member of the Chosen People is, in the vast majority of cases, decided by genetic lottery.
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« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2011, 12:27:18 PM »


Wow!   After Christians, Muslims form the largest religious grouping in the UK.
 
Presumably this court ruling will now bar all Muslims from becoming either foster parents or adoptive parents..... unless they are willing to state in front of adoption panels that they have renounced the Muslim teaching on homosexuality.


Iimagine when Muslims are told in court that they are forbidden to adopt Muslim children!!!  Hope the British judges have their homes bombproofed!
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« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2011, 12:42:35 PM »


Good observation.

I wonder if they will dare to oppose Islam.

...they don't "turn the other cheek".
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« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2011, 01:18:31 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?
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« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2011, 01:22:46 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?

Might? Probably not. But required? I'd be surprised otherwise.
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« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2011, 01:25:20 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?

Might? Probably not. But required? I'd be surprised otherwise.

You'd be suprised if they wouldn't quit?
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« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2011, 01:26:18 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?

Might? Probably not. But required? I'd be surprised otherwise.

You'd be suprised if they wouldn't quit?

I'd be surprised, if they didn't refuse to perform said immoral conduct.
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« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2011, 01:52:12 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Given your dislike of genetic lotteries, one has to wonder why you converted to a religion where one's status as a member of the Chosen People is, in the vast majority of cases, decided by genetic lottery.
LOL. PWND.

Btw, I won that genetic lottery.
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« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2011, 02:20:10 PM »

Just heard on the radio that a suit has been filed, saying that the NY legislature violated its procedures and the open meetings law (the same sort of thing that the left used to stop the law in WI on unions, ultimately without success).
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« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2011, 02:28:49 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?

Everyone else is doing it ....
I'd like to think most Orthodox Christians whose work contradicts the teachings they believe would get out of that position. Aren't we taught that our faith is more important than a job or monetary certainty? Thank God for the example of Martyr Cornelius the Centurion.
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« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2011, 02:32:51 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Given your dislike of genetic lotteries, one has to wonder why you converted to a religion where one's status as a member of the Chosen People is, in the vast majority of cases, decided by genetic lottery.
LOL. PWND.

Btw, I won that genetic lottery.
But not entirely, or I wouldn't have been able to join.
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« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2011, 02:35:45 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?

Everyone else is doing it ....
I'd like to think most Orthodox Christians whose work contradicts the teachings they believe would get out of that position. Aren't we taught that our faith is more important than a job or monetary certainty? Thank God for the example of Martyr Cornelius the Centurion.
Don't count on it. I knew a woman who was very active in GO parish, her family had belonged for several generations, etc. She ran a video store and would personally order the X-rated videos she rented. She saw nothing wrong with this since "they would only rent them somewhere else".
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« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2011, 02:41:10 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?

Everyone else is doing it ....
I'd like to think most Orthodox Christians whose work contradicts the teachings they believe would get out of that position. Aren't we taught that our faith is more important than a job or monetary certainty? Thank God for the example of Martyr Cornelius the Centurion.
Don't count on it. I knew a woman who was very active in GO parish, her family had belonged for several generations, etc. She ran a video store and would personally order the X-rated videos she rented. She saw nothing wrong with this since "they would only rent them somewhere else".

What's your point? That there are people who don't live by the faith they pretend to profess or otherwise reason out their failures.

Stop the surprises... can't take it... must... take... artificial sugar....
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« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2011, 02:42:41 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Here you going dissing the Royal Family again. I am going to ask nicely, stop doing that.
I was only refering to monarchies in general, I don't believe I mentioned any one by name.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 02:42:57 PM by Tallitot » Logged

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« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2011, 02:43:43 PM »

What's your point? That there are most people who don't live by the faith they pretend to profess or otherwise reason out their failures.

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« Reply #75 on: July 25, 2011, 02:46:15 PM »

What's your point? That most people don't live by the faith they pretend to profess or otherwise reason out their failures.

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Which, like I said, is a perfectly good reason for anyone to continue to not live by that faith.
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« Reply #76 on: July 25, 2011, 02:47:04 PM »

What's your point? That there are most people who don't live by the faith they pretend to profess or otherwise reason out their failures.

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So true... so true...
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« Reply #77 on: July 25, 2011, 02:48:03 PM »

A nice earthquake dumping SF and Hollywood into the sea, and global warming putting NYC under a mile of water could help.
Yes, I'm sure G-d'd getting ready to killhundreds of thousands of ppl to make you happy.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2011, 02:51:06 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Here you going dissing the Royal Family again. I am going to ask nicely, stop doing that.
I was only refering to monarchies in general, I don't believe I mentioned any one by name.
How about the Davidic?
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« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2011, 03:01:22 PM »

The Davidic monarchy hasn't ruled in ceturies.

Like I said before-this woman decided she couldn't do her job, she quit. Good move. I hope other clerks who feel the same way quit. It would be a shame if someone's special; day was ruined by a low level functionary who thought it was thier place to impose thier personal religious beliefs on the public.
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« Reply #80 on: July 25, 2011, 03:08:52 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Given your dislike of genetic lotteries, one has to wonder why you converted to a religion where one's status as a member of the Chosen People is, in the vast majority of cases, decided by genetic lottery.
LOL. PWND.

Btw, I won that genetic lottery.
But not entirely, or I wouldn't have been able to join.
Quote
According to tannaitic law a proselyte has no share in the land of Israel and is unable to say in his prayers 'Our God and God of our fathers'.The son or daughter of a proselyte was known as a proselyte, the epithet disappearing only when the 'proselyte' was the offspring of a native Jewish mother.
http://books.google.com/books?id=MA-4VX5gWS4C&pg=PA944&dq=Talmud+proselyte+God+of++our+fathers+their+fathers+Israel&hl=en&ei=yr0tTp_kI6-HsALczPSmCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Talmud%20proselyte%20God%20of%20%20our%20fathers%20their%20fathers%20Israel&f=false
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When such proselyte prays by himself he uses the words, The God of the fathers of Israel. And when he is in the synagogue he uses the words, The God of your fathers. But if his mother be of Israel he says, The God of our fathers.
http://books.google.com/books?id=pX6Q6C7wV2wC&pg=PA326&dq=Talmud+proselyte+God+of++our+fathers+their+fathers+Israel&hl=en&ei=4L4tTsjKE8HksQL_0ITmBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
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« Reply #81 on: July 25, 2011, 03:12:54 PM »

The Davidic monarchy hasn't ruled in ceturies.
Quote
Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.

Like I said before-this woman decided she couldn't do her job, she quit. Good move. I hope other clerks who feel the same way quit. It would be a shame if someone's special; day was ruined by a low level functionary who thought it was thier place to impose thier personal religious beliefs on the public.
And you will feel the same way if the law is overturned for violation of the open meetings law, the suit now in court, and clerks who support the law as it stands now resign rather than have to refuse licenses to gay couples?

She didn't decide she couldn't do her job.  Her job was changed so she couldn't do it.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 03:15:15 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: July 25, 2011, 03:16:24 PM »

A nice earthquake dumping SF and Hollywood into the sea, and global warming putting NYC under a mile of water could help.
Yes, I'm sure G-d'd getting ready to killhundreds of thousands of ppl to make you happy.  Roll Eyes
My happiness, sadness or indifference has no bearing on the matter.
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« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2011, 03:23:44 PM »

Quote
It's only been one day since gay weddings have officially been able to commence in New York state after a historic vote allowed the Marriage Equality bill to pass legislative hurdles in June. Already, though, opponents of the bill have filed a lawsuit in the state court saying that "New York's Senate violated its own procedures and the state's open meetings law when it approved the bill on June 24,"....The group also claims, among other things, that Gov. [Andrew] Cuomo and the Senate ignored the constitutionally mandated three-day waiting period before a bill can be acted upon and that lawmakers approved the legislation in exchange for campaign contributions from Bloomberg and other high profile "Wall Street financiers."
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2011/07/gay-marriage-opponents-suing-new-york-state/40364/

Lord willing, this will be CA and ME all over again.
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« Reply #84 on: July 25, 2011, 03:29:58 PM »

I'd like to say, if you came here to bach the Royal Family, stop (You know who I'm talking too).  police
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« Reply #85 on: July 25, 2011, 03:40:03 PM »

I'd like to say, if you came here to bach the Royal Family, stop (You know who I'm talking too).  police

Bach, what about Bach??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzR9bhei_o

No one is bashing the Royal Family. We are having a tangential discussion.
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« Reply #86 on: July 25, 2011, 04:07:59 PM »

I'd like to say, if you came here to bach the Royal Family, stop (You know who I'm talking too).  police
Which "royal" family? There's a plethora of them around the world>
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« Reply #87 on: July 25, 2011, 04:11:23 PM »

I'd like to say, if you came here to bach the Royal Family, stop (You know who I'm talking too).  police
Which "royal" family? There's a plethora of them around the world>
There are 4-7 continents around the world, but in English, when you say "the Continent," you have one in mind.  So too "the Royal Family," particularly when capitalized.
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« Reply #88 on: July 25, 2011, 04:30:49 PM »

i was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of refusaing to sign liceses for same sex couples, while not refusing to do the same for a divorced person.

Does it actually state on a marriage certificate that one of the parties is a divorcee?


FYI:  In New York, the uniform state license application asks the marital status of the parties; if the applicants indicate that one or both are divorced, then the Clerk is obligated to obtain additional information regarding the status of the prior marriage(s) prior to issuing a license.
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« Reply #89 on: July 25, 2011, 04:35:36 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Given your dislike of genetic lotteries, one has to wonder why you converted to a religion where one's status as a member of the Chosen People is, in the vast majority of cases, decided by genetic lottery.
One has to wonder how other Jews in his synagogue embrace his homosexuality too.
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